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1
00:01:00,208 --> 00:01:03,351
If you say how the world is,
2
00:01:03,375 --> 00:01:04,833
that should be enough.
3
00:01:10,667 --> 00:01:14,375
Just the sense of simple
connection between people.
4
00:01:18,083 --> 00:01:19,167
Just being.
5
00:01:30,125 --> 00:01:32,934
If you make films about people's lives,
6
00:01:32,958 --> 00:01:35,375
I think politics is essential.
7
00:01:36,917 --> 00:01:39,833
It is the essence of drama,
the essence of conflict.
8
00:02:05,125 --> 00:02:10,167
Ken wants to make films about
how the world is actually run.
9
00:02:13,833 --> 00:02:17,375
There are two powerful
forces at work in society...
10
00:02:18,833 --> 00:02:19,958
...and they are enemies.
11
00:02:39,167 --> 00:02:41,417
Like all of us, he's a contradiction.
12
00:02:43,375 --> 00:02:49,833
Ken appears to be so
respectable and well-mannered...
13
00:02:52,625 --> 00:02:55,250
...he doesn't seem to be a
danger to anyone, does he?
14
00:02:57,042 --> 00:02:59,958
He could be at home at a vicar's tea party.
15
00:03:02,125 --> 00:03:04,143
But there he is, the most left-wing,
16
00:03:04,167 --> 00:03:09,309
subversive director this
country has probably ever had...
17
00:03:09,333 --> 00:03:10,583
Perfect gentleman.
18
00:03:12,500 --> 00:03:13,708
Ken's acted brilliant.
19
00:03:33,250 --> 00:03:34,375
Bastards.
20
00:04:06,750 --> 00:04:09,708
You might be able to find
something here that would work for...
21
00:04:11,083 --> 00:04:13,768
- ...the working flat.
- Oh, yes.
22
00:04:13,792 --> 00:04:14,809
You know what I mean?
23
00:04:14,833 --> 00:04:17,059
Because suddenly you're
in a whole different...
24
00:04:17,083 --> 00:04:19,268
Yes, it may take a while...
25
00:04:19,292 --> 00:04:21,393
We're almost at the mouth of the Tyne,
26
00:04:21,417 --> 00:04:23,268
so the River Tyne is just down there,
27
00:04:23,292 --> 00:04:25,476
then there's the Fish Quay area and...
28
00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:28,768
Today is, what, the 10th of July?
29
00:04:28,792 --> 00:04:32,458
And we'd like to start shooting
the film on the 5th of October.
30
00:04:33,917 --> 00:04:35,601
That's three months.
31
00:04:35,625 --> 00:04:36,976
That's tight.
32
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,934
It's all quite manageable, isn't it?
33
00:04:39,958 --> 00:04:41,393
Scale-wise.
34
00:04:41,417 --> 00:04:44,184
I had the phone call from Film Four,
35
00:04:44,208 --> 00:04:48,476
who were saying that
they can't fund the film.
36
00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:51,809
They just don't think it would be a
good enough investment for them.
37
00:04:51,833 --> 00:04:54,059
But I'm also talking to the BBC.
38
00:04:54,083 --> 00:04:57,893
My fear with the BBC is that, politically,
39
00:04:57,917 --> 00:05:01,125
the film may just be too
tough for them to take on.
40
00:05:03,542 --> 00:05:06,143
It's quite iffy, really. It's quite edgy.
41
00:05:06,167 --> 00:05:07,934
God knows why I'm doing it, really.
42
00:05:07,958 --> 00:05:10,184
I must be mad.
43
00:05:10,208 --> 00:05:12,643
All things considered, it would
be nice to be on that side,
44
00:05:12,667 --> 00:05:14,434
because then it'll be in shade.
45
00:05:14,458 --> 00:05:15,750
There's something quite...
46
00:05:16,750 --> 00:05:18,018
...well-kept about it.
47
00:05:18,042 --> 00:05:20,726
'You do have to be on your game.
48
00:05:20,750 --> 00:05:23,268
'That's the fear, isn't it,
that you just let people down
49
00:05:23,292 --> 00:05:25,750
'and that you're just not sharp enough.'
50
00:05:28,833 --> 00:05:30,268
You miss a trick,
51
00:05:30,292 --> 00:05:33,309
and if you miss too many
tricks in the course of shooting,
52
00:05:33,333 --> 00:05:36,125
then you don't do justice to the story.
53
00:05:38,542 --> 00:05:39,976
That's the...
54
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,518
That's the danger
55
00:05:41,542 --> 00:05:43,809
of employing an old director.
56
00:05:43,833 --> 00:05:45,309
HE CHUCKLES
57
00:05:45,333 --> 00:05:46,559
Hmm.
58
00:05:46,583 --> 00:05:49,934
I think I should keep taking the...
59
00:05:49,958 --> 00:05:53,101
Keep the ointment and the pills
60
00:05:53,125 --> 00:05:55,417
and the elastic stockings and...
61
00:05:57,375 --> 00:06:01,000
...all the support mechanisms in place...
62
00:06:03,292 --> 00:06:05,042
...for the antique director.
63
00:06:48,875 --> 00:06:50,893
As they're approaching the bell tower,
64
00:06:50,917 --> 00:06:53,018
the noise is getting louder and louder...
65
00:06:53,042 --> 00:06:55,768
The rope's fairly long, so
they can move about a bit.
66
00:06:55,792 --> 00:06:59,208
I first met Ken when I acted for him.
67
00:07:01,167 --> 00:07:03,601
He didn't direct the actors at all.
68
00:07:03,625 --> 00:07:09,184
I mean, I rehearsed for a
week and we sort of barely met.
69
00:07:09,208 --> 00:07:10,976
I remember he was quite stroppy,
70
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,976
and I did have second
thoughts about casting him,
71
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,893
cos he asked questions all the time.
72
00:07:15,917 --> 00:07:19,292
He looked sort of like
a bank clerk, really.
73
00:07:20,500 --> 00:07:22,518
He made no impression on me.
74
00:07:22,542 --> 00:07:24,559
So that was my first impression of Ken -
75
00:07:24,583 --> 00:07:25,958
he made no impression.
76
00:07:32,125 --> 00:07:36,851
In the early '60s, the BBC was changing.
77
00:07:36,875 --> 00:07:39,393
They were expanding to BBC Two,
78
00:07:39,417 --> 00:07:43,601
so a number of
working-class ruffians like...
79
00:07:43,625 --> 00:07:45,893
us got jobs,
80
00:07:45,917 --> 00:07:48,417
which we would never
have got in the BBC before.
81
00:07:52,042 --> 00:07:55,167
We had one morning entitled
What To Do With Your Cameras.
82
00:07:56,708 --> 00:07:58,851
There wasn't a rude
reply, as you might imagine,
83
00:07:58,875 --> 00:08:01,309
but we were given a tour of a TV studio,
84
00:08:01,333 --> 00:08:03,417
but no kind of instruction at all.
85
00:08:05,083 --> 00:08:07,976
All right, very quiet now. Ready.
86
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,809
BBC drama was photographed stage plays
87
00:08:12,833 --> 00:08:16,292
with clumsy electronic cameras in a studio.
88
00:08:17,542 --> 00:08:21,184
The working class were not represented...
89
00:08:21,208 --> 00:08:24,268
I do hope that the price
for dropping this charge
90
00:08:24,292 --> 00:08:25,643
is not only a high one...
91
00:08:25,667 --> 00:08:27,434
18. Two next.
92
00:08:27,458 --> 00:08:32,601
...and posh actors could
always play down, as they said.
93
00:08:32,625 --> 00:08:34,559
"Oh, I'm going Northern."
94
00:08:34,583 --> 00:08:39,476
It was a class-ridden English society,
95
00:08:39,500 --> 00:08:42,042
and we came in wanting to change it.
96
00:08:54,792 --> 00:09:00,643
We were asked to produce a
series of contemporary single dramas
97
00:09:00,667 --> 00:09:02,792
about the world as it actually was.
98
00:09:05,583 --> 00:09:07,268
So, that was our brief,
99
00:09:07,292 --> 00:09:08,917
to stir up a bit of trouble.
100
00:09:14,833 --> 00:09:20,500
It was a magical medium to work
with, and so that's compulsive.
101
00:09:23,167 --> 00:09:28,184
Because you're not only
dealing with drama and actors
102
00:09:28,208 --> 00:09:30,976
and performance and telling a story,
103
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:36,518
you're also dealing in images
and light and movement.
104
00:09:36,542 --> 00:09:37,875
I mean, all those things.
105
00:10:07,042 --> 00:10:10,333
I moved to Battersea
because I didn't like Chelsea.
106
00:10:12,167 --> 00:10:15,500
I got a job in a sweet factory,
packing chocolate liqueurs...
107
00:10:17,958 --> 00:10:20,708
...and bought a little cottage for £700.
108
00:10:22,542 --> 00:10:24,458
There was always a big queue for the bath.
109
00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:26,851
And also, a telephone -
110
00:10:26,875 --> 00:10:28,976
there was always a big
queue for the telephone.
111
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,976
They had one queue for the
bath, the other for the telephone,
112
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,042
cos I think I was the
only bath in the street.
113
00:10:36,250 --> 00:10:37,643
That's where I was,
114
00:10:37,667 --> 00:10:39,768
and so I wrote about what was around me.
115
00:10:39,792 --> 00:10:43,018
♪ I wanna be loved by you
116
00:10:43,042 --> 00:10:47,917
♪ Alone, scoop-boop-be-doop. ♪
117
00:10:52,917 --> 00:10:55,851
Where do think you're going, all
dressed up like the Queen of Sheba?
118
00:10:55,875 --> 00:10:57,601
Ken found the book,
119
00:10:57,625 --> 00:11:00,458
and he was just aching to do it.
120
00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:14,059
They were just absolutely what I
was looking for, because they were
121
00:11:14,083 --> 00:11:17,601
little events, little
moments, little relationships.
122
00:11:17,625 --> 00:11:24,351
Get him worked up, give
him a love bite, that'll do it.
123
00:11:24,375 --> 00:11:27,643
The lads taking the girls on
the motorbikes and going round
124
00:11:27,667 --> 00:11:31,792
an empty house - it had an
energy and a kind of febrile...
125
00:11:33,792 --> 00:11:34,958
...scent of danger.
126
00:11:38,333 --> 00:11:41,726
They became a script very quickly
with just a little editing, really.
127
00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:43,125
He told me what HE wanted.
128
00:11:44,750 --> 00:11:48,417
He told me what he
wanted, and I tried to do it.
129
00:11:50,333 --> 00:11:53,250
The problem was it had
to be shot on location.
130
00:11:56,583 --> 00:11:59,976
And I put it through the works
at the BBC, as though it were a
131
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:06,643
studio show, so that there
wouldn't be any alarm bells going off.
132
00:12:06,667 --> 00:12:07,750
Hey-hey!
133
00:12:09,083 --> 00:12:12,601
Ken had the lovely Tony Imi stripped off,
134
00:12:12,625 --> 00:12:15,226
with his camera held high above his head,
135
00:12:15,250 --> 00:12:18,125
filming these girls leaping in the water.
136
00:12:20,458 --> 00:12:24,893
Basically, we were saying that
the working class people had sex.
137
00:12:24,917 --> 00:12:30,143
I mean, that's all right if
you're doing... the aristocracy.
138
00:12:30,167 --> 00:12:32,018
I mean, they're allowed to.
139
00:12:32,042 --> 00:12:34,768
But the working-class people
were having sex and enjoying it,
140
00:12:34,792 --> 00:12:36,184
and they weren't even married.
141
00:12:36,208 --> 00:12:40,292
I mean, this was... In
1965, this was horrifying.
142
00:12:42,167 --> 00:12:46,601
Every week, there were
18 to 20 million viewers.
143
00:12:46,625 --> 00:12:49,768
You knew that people were writing stuff
144
00:12:49,792 --> 00:12:52,184
about the people you came from.
145
00:12:52,208 --> 00:12:53,976
Quick, get the clobber!
146
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,518
You know, they weren't plays
with cucumber sandwiches
147
00:12:57,542 --> 00:13:00,208
and French windows. You know, they weren't.
148
00:13:06,042 --> 00:13:08,917
I would have cut my arm off to have...
149
00:13:10,083 --> 00:13:11,500
...got that film made...
150
00:13:12,833 --> 00:13:16,208
...because of the
backstreet-abortion scene of Ruby.
151
00:13:21,875 --> 00:13:27,434
It was during the war, during the
bombing, my mother got pregnant.
152
00:13:27,458 --> 00:13:29,643
They didn't want another child.
153
00:13:29,667 --> 00:13:32,667
Abortion was illegal, so it had to be...
154
00:13:33,917 --> 00:13:35,000
...an amateur.
155
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:38,250
And something went wrong with it.
156
00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:43,434
And she died a few days later
157
00:13:43,458 --> 00:13:46,250
of what they called galloping septicaemia.
158
00:13:49,083 --> 00:13:50,167
I was five.
159
00:14:08,542 --> 00:14:10,809
Sometimes a film's an accident, you know,
160
00:14:10,833 --> 00:14:17,375
and sometimes it comes from a
moment or a character or an incident.
161
00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:22,226
You know, Ken has been talking about
162
00:14:22,250 --> 00:14:24,518
hanging up his football boots.
163
00:14:24,542 --> 00:14:27,226
Excuse me while I laugh. Yes,
hanging up his football boots.
164
00:14:27,250 --> 00:14:28,601
Now, the job centre...
165
00:14:28,625 --> 00:14:31,684
Again, we want it... If we're doing
Newcastle, we want city centre...
166
00:14:31,708 --> 00:14:34,851
And of course, after the
Tories coming back in again,
167
00:14:34,875 --> 00:14:38,101
with these welfare cuts and the sanctions,
168
00:14:38,125 --> 00:14:41,434
you could just see his anger rise again,
169
00:14:41,458 --> 00:14:43,934
and so I didn't think it would be long
170
00:14:43,958 --> 00:14:46,684
before he was on the
hunt for another story.
171
00:14:46,708 --> 00:14:47,893
Cos, I mean, in this scene,
172
00:14:47,917 --> 00:14:50,809
it's just the sense of people
waiting and wakening up,
173
00:14:50,833 --> 00:14:53,143
so it would just be
the reception and the...
174
00:14:53,167 --> 00:14:56,809
Paul wrote a character,
a very simple character -
175
00:14:56,833 --> 00:15:01,643
a man in his late 50s, early 60s
who's trying to get back to work
176
00:15:01,667 --> 00:15:05,643
after caring for his wife and
dropping out. He was a carpenter.
177
00:15:05,667 --> 00:15:09,059
Just the hurdles he faces,
the difficulties he faces,
178
00:15:09,083 --> 00:15:10,351
the world that he faces.
179
00:15:10,375 --> 00:15:15,059
When the thing kicks off
with Rachel and the two kids...
180
00:15:15,083 --> 00:15:16,851
Any film-maker who says,
181
00:15:16,875 --> 00:15:19,518
"I can change your mind,"
with absolute confidence -
182
00:15:19,542 --> 00:15:21,309
you just don't know.
183
00:15:21,333 --> 00:15:25,851
If we as human beings are touched
by the story, and we do that well,
184
00:15:25,875 --> 00:15:28,684
then you've maybe got a
chance of touching other people.
185
00:15:28,708 --> 00:15:32,184
That's what gives you the motive
to actually do the damn thing,
186
00:15:32,208 --> 00:15:35,458
because there's something
inside you that burns to do it.
187
00:15:51,083 --> 00:15:55,393
We lived in Nuneaton, which
is in the middle of the Midlands.
188
00:15:55,417 --> 00:15:57,542
My dad was one of ten children.
189
00:15:58,917 --> 00:16:01,351
He did an apprenticeship
as an electrician in the mine,
190
00:16:01,375 --> 00:16:04,625
and then he got this job
in a machine tool factory.
191
00:16:21,875 --> 00:16:23,333
He worked seven days a week.
192
00:16:24,458 --> 00:16:27,476
He would go into the factory
at six o'clock every morning,
193
00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:29,583
and be back at six o'clock at night.
194
00:16:33,417 --> 00:16:36,184
He did quite well, he became
in charge of the maintenance
195
00:16:36,208 --> 00:16:37,875
and became a foreman.
196
00:16:44,750 --> 00:16:47,851
I mean, he had a huge respect
for craftsmen, I mean, he...
197
00:16:47,875 --> 00:16:52,101
Craftsmanship. When we
were doing Macbeth at school,
198
00:16:52,125 --> 00:16:56,559
he got a dagger made
in the joinery workshop,
199
00:16:56,583 --> 00:16:58,434
and it was just immaculate.
200
00:16:58,458 --> 00:17:02,167
Just the delight in craftsmanship was...
201
00:17:03,542 --> 00:17:05,833
Was one of his defining
characteristics, really.
202
00:17:11,292 --> 00:17:13,976
In a way, he was a working-class Tory,
203
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,809
and the Daily Express came in to our house.
204
00:17:16,833 --> 00:17:19,583
Only later did I realise
how right-wing it was.
205
00:17:26,792 --> 00:17:30,750
We had one week's holiday,
and we would go to Blackpool.
206
00:17:33,375 --> 00:17:36,393
My mother, when asked
where we were going, she'd say,
207
00:17:36,417 --> 00:17:39,768
"Blackpool, but the
north side, the north end,"
208
00:17:39,792 --> 00:17:42,934
because that was seen as slightly
more refined than the south end
209
00:17:42,958 --> 00:17:47,268
where the Pleasure Beach
was, it was a bit too proletarian.
210
00:17:47,292 --> 00:17:50,851
But the big treat was seeing
the shows and the great comics.
211
00:17:50,875 --> 00:17:54,042
Very much the humour of
poverty, and the humour of...
212
00:17:55,125 --> 00:17:56,476
...bodily functions.
213
00:17:56,500 --> 00:18:00,351
The hysteria would be something to behold.
214
00:18:00,375 --> 00:18:02,934
People would weep, WEEP with laughter.
215
00:18:02,958 --> 00:18:06,351
And my old man, who was not
given to a lot of laughter, would...
216
00:18:06,375 --> 00:18:08,184
He would be doubled,
217
00:18:08,208 --> 00:18:10,518
he'd have to get his
handkerchief out to mop the tears
218
00:18:10,542 --> 00:18:12,000
as they ran down his face.
219
00:18:20,417 --> 00:18:22,601
Let me now ask our audience,
220
00:18:22,625 --> 00:18:27,268
how many of you have seen the play
Cathy Come Home, or have heard about
221
00:18:27,292 --> 00:18:30,934
Cathy Come Home, have read about
it in the newspapers or magazines,
222
00:18:30,958 --> 00:18:32,309
or heard it discussed?
223
00:18:32,333 --> 00:18:34,226
If you have, will you push your buttons?
224
00:18:34,250 --> 00:18:37,018
Let's just see how many of you
know about Cathy Come Home.
225
00:18:37,042 --> 00:18:38,125
Let's have a quick look.
226
00:18:39,375 --> 00:18:44,125
Some 90% of our audience
know Cathy Come Home.
227
00:18:45,375 --> 00:18:47,268
It was during that Wednesday Play season
228
00:18:47,292 --> 00:18:51,018
that Ken and I gravitated
towards each other.
229
00:18:51,042 --> 00:18:53,083
We both wanted to do the same thing.
230
00:18:58,417 --> 00:19:01,726
We wanted to make films on real locations
231
00:19:01,750 --> 00:19:05,583
about the lives of actual people.
232
00:19:07,292 --> 00:19:12,143
Cathy Come Home had been
turned down by the BBC twice
233
00:19:12,167 --> 00:19:14,059
as being too political.
234
00:19:14,083 --> 00:19:16,559
We could take your children
into care and turn you out,
235
00:19:16,583 --> 00:19:18,726
- just like that.
- Please don't do that.
236
00:19:18,750 --> 00:19:22,018
But we're not going to. We're
going to give you one more chance.
237
00:19:22,042 --> 00:19:25,292
But I must emphasise,
this is your last chance.
238
00:19:27,083 --> 00:19:29,934
We knew there was a housing problem,
239
00:19:29,958 --> 00:19:34,250
but I didn't know there were
homeless, and neither did Ken.
240
00:19:40,458 --> 00:19:41,976
Come along then.
241
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,250
That's it then, Cath.
242
00:19:45,417 --> 00:19:47,268
As you were doing it, you're thinking,
243
00:19:47,292 --> 00:19:51,184
"How can I shoot this in
such a way that it is credible,
244
00:19:51,208 --> 00:19:54,434
"so that I really believe it?"
245
00:19:54,458 --> 00:19:56,976
If you were watching a
documentary, you would believe it.
246
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,042
So, that's our...
247
00:19:59,167 --> 00:20:00,292
...standard.
248
00:20:02,917 --> 00:20:06,101
We thought, "Let's shoot in sequence,"
249
00:20:06,125 --> 00:20:11,226
because then an actor has
time to develop a character,
250
00:20:11,250 --> 00:20:13,917
to have a past and an unknown future.
251
00:20:16,958 --> 00:20:19,809
If you shoot the story
in the chronological order
252
00:20:19,833 --> 00:20:22,934
it would have happened,
you don't need to work out,
253
00:20:22,958 --> 00:20:25,559
"How would I feel if
I'd been through that?"
254
00:20:25,583 --> 00:20:28,643
You know, and you just have that memory
255
00:20:28,667 --> 00:20:30,351
in your stomach, really.
256
00:20:30,375 --> 00:20:33,934
Somebody told me you've got
these places they call halfway houses.
257
00:20:33,958 --> 00:20:37,851
Carol White was just a
natural choice to play Cathy.
258
00:20:37,875 --> 00:20:39,268
Reg might come back to me.
259
00:20:39,292 --> 00:20:41,268
She could just be.
260
00:20:41,292 --> 00:20:43,059
He's drifting away from me.
261
00:20:43,083 --> 00:20:46,601
And that's great acting
when you can get that.
262
00:20:46,625 --> 00:20:51,208
And Ken had the knack of
encouraging that from an actor.
263
00:20:57,667 --> 00:21:00,226
It was so different to anything
we'd ever seen before,
264
00:21:00,250 --> 00:21:03,309
because it was shot in an observed
way and not in an immaculate way,
265
00:21:03,333 --> 00:21:06,559
but actually told the story
266
00:21:06,583 --> 00:21:08,601
more truthfully and more realistically
267
00:21:08,625 --> 00:21:10,851
than I think I'd ever seen before.
268
00:21:10,875 --> 00:21:12,375
Get back! Get back!
269
00:21:18,583 --> 00:21:23,143
Ken, as a director, was
becoming much more confident -
270
00:21:23,167 --> 00:21:27,167
determined to get what
he wanted for the film.
271
00:21:37,375 --> 00:21:40,684
There is one scene where Carol White
has her children taken away from her
272
00:21:40,708 --> 00:21:43,601
at the railway station by social workers.
273
00:21:43,625 --> 00:21:44,851
It still stays with me.
274
00:21:44,875 --> 00:21:47,792
It's one of the strongest
scenes I've ever seen in any film.
275
00:21:56,708 --> 00:21:58,768
You're not having my kids.
276
00:21:58,792 --> 00:22:01,542
You're not!
277
00:22:04,083 --> 00:22:05,875
SHE SCREAMS
278
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,018
It had to be shocking.
279
00:22:18,042 --> 00:22:19,851
It couldn't be other than shocking.
280
00:22:19,875 --> 00:22:22,226
If we'd staged it with extras walking past,
281
00:22:22,250 --> 00:22:24,393
it just wouldn't have had the impact.
282
00:22:24,417 --> 00:22:26,958
We just put it in a real
place and let it happen.
283
00:22:38,167 --> 00:22:41,250
The reception - it was extraordinary.
284
00:22:42,875 --> 00:22:45,976
At the first showing, the Daily
Mail called Cathy Come Home,
285
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,684
"A dramatic battering ram."
286
00:22:47,708 --> 00:22:49,393
The Guardian said it was,
287
00:22:49,417 --> 00:22:51,809
"Undoubtedly one of the
most successful pieces
288
00:22:51,833 --> 00:22:55,768
"of social reforming drama
we've had on television."
289
00:22:55,792 --> 00:22:57,393
People didn't know.
290
00:22:57,417 --> 00:23:01,059
I think there's been enormous
confusion in the public mind
291
00:23:01,083 --> 00:23:03,976
as to whether this is,
in fact, fact or fiction.
292
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,809
I mean, what is there to prevent
you next time, when you want to
293
00:23:06,833 --> 00:23:08,601
make your point a little more strongly,
294
00:23:08,625 --> 00:23:10,643
to introduce fictional statistics as well?
295
00:23:10,667 --> 00:23:13,809
Well, I thought it was a
brilliant piece of propaganda
296
00:23:13,833 --> 00:23:16,018
of a highly charged and emotional kind.
297
00:23:16,042 --> 00:23:19,351
The script was written,
there were 60-odd actors in it.
298
00:23:19,375 --> 00:23:22,768
The fact that Ken Loach is such
a good director that the actors
299
00:23:22,792 --> 00:23:25,167
often don't look like
actors is hardly my fault.
300
00:23:32,792 --> 00:23:35,833
Part of the enormous kerfuffle...
301
00:23:37,333 --> 00:23:39,833
...was an invitation to the Ministry.
302
00:23:41,417 --> 00:23:46,309
So, Ken Loach and I went down Whitehall
303
00:23:46,333 --> 00:23:47,708
to see the Minister.
304
00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:00,893
And we sat down in this huge,
beautifully appointed office -
305
00:24:00,917 --> 00:24:04,684
I mean, I've never lived
in anywhere as big as that -
306
00:24:04,708 --> 00:24:07,018
and it was very English.
307
00:24:07,042 --> 00:24:12,226
Tea was on quite nice china with biscuits,
308
00:24:12,250 --> 00:24:15,500
but then he said, "But what can one do?"
309
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,167
And I looked at Ken and Jeremy,
and I said, "Well, build more houses."
310
00:24:26,583 --> 00:24:28,351
And he looked at the senior civil servant
311
00:24:28,375 --> 00:24:31,309
who looked back and then went...
312
00:24:31,333 --> 00:24:33,184
Smiled at each other as though...
313
00:24:33,208 --> 00:24:34,643
HE SIGHS
314
00:24:34,667 --> 00:24:36,458
"If only it were that simple."
315
00:24:39,125 --> 00:24:43,667
We were ushered out into
Whitehall and that was the end of it.
316
00:24:45,667 --> 00:24:50,958
I did kick myself afterwards
that it wasn't more political.
317
00:24:52,792 --> 00:24:55,000
We'd let everybody off the hook.
318
00:25:16,417 --> 00:25:19,875
The starting point is, "What
is the core of the story?"
319
00:25:22,583 --> 00:25:23,976
Are the people valid?
320
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,309
Are they true? Is it significant?
321
00:25:26,333 --> 00:25:27,542
Is it worth telling?
322
00:25:28,833 --> 00:25:31,333
Then you've got to find
people who can bring that to life.
323
00:25:34,625 --> 00:25:39,476
Then there's the qualities of the
character, their age, their class,
324
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:43,143
where they're from, all
of which you can't hide,
325
00:25:43,167 --> 00:25:45,000
and you look for someone who can listen.
326
00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:51,643
He's trying to find some
essential quality in the actor
327
00:25:51,667 --> 00:25:52,958
that he can use.
328
00:25:57,208 --> 00:26:00,518
It's less about acting,
it's about, sort of...
329
00:26:00,542 --> 00:26:01,875
you as a person, I think.
330
00:26:08,375 --> 00:26:11,434
I think you want actors
who don't put up defences.
331
00:26:11,458 --> 00:26:15,809
You want actors who let you into
their minds, into their thoughts,
332
00:26:15,833 --> 00:26:17,875
into their weaknesses.
333
00:26:19,917 --> 00:26:22,434
And many actors erect
defences. They have...
334
00:26:22,458 --> 00:26:24,226
They'll develop a technique,
335
00:26:24,250 --> 00:26:28,184
which is about giving the
impression of something,
336
00:26:28,208 --> 00:26:29,893
and presenting something,
337
00:26:29,917 --> 00:26:34,059
but you want to get beyond
that into who they really are.
338
00:26:34,083 --> 00:26:39,143
So, vulnerability is a
really important quality.
339
00:26:39,167 --> 00:26:42,059
But then you have a
responsibility not to exploit that,
340
00:26:42,083 --> 00:26:44,309
you know, they have to feel safe.
341
00:26:44,333 --> 00:26:49,000
They have to feel safe in order to
allow themselves to be vulnerable.
342
00:27:00,875 --> 00:27:03,101
When Carol came for her audition,
343
00:27:03,125 --> 00:27:06,542
she had a gift of intimacy
that's quite unusual.
344
00:27:08,583 --> 00:27:09,708
He saw her...
345
00:27:11,167 --> 00:27:15,393
I suppose, her talent,
to be completely there.
346
00:27:15,417 --> 00:27:16,750
She was a nice girl, Carol.
347
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,208
I think her big mistake
was going to America.
348
00:27:24,542 --> 00:27:26,167
She should have stayed here.
349
00:27:29,792 --> 00:27:31,167
Carol White had a quality.
350
00:27:32,875 --> 00:27:35,434
She was undefended,
351
00:27:35,458 --> 00:27:38,851
and that worked when she was
with people who cared about her,
352
00:27:38,875 --> 00:27:41,601
who loved her like Ken and I did.
353
00:27:41,625 --> 00:27:44,143
But then she was seduced into Hollywood,
354
00:27:44,167 --> 00:27:47,750
and they don't take prisoners there.
355
00:27:49,417 --> 00:27:53,101
And she got into drugs
and emotional difficulties,
356
00:27:53,125 --> 00:27:55,000
and she died really quite young.
357
00:28:21,208 --> 00:28:23,083
Theatres have a magic about them.
358
00:28:26,750 --> 00:28:30,333
We had a theatre company
used to visit every three weeks.
359
00:28:31,917 --> 00:28:35,268
I used to go and hang
around like schoolboys do,
360
00:28:35,292 --> 00:28:38,917
just for some connection to
these mysterious, magical people.
361
00:28:40,125 --> 00:28:44,268
But Dad had a passion
that I should be educated,
362
00:28:44,292 --> 00:28:47,268
and was fierce in his instruction
363
00:28:47,292 --> 00:28:49,458
that I couldn't go out on weekdays.
364
00:29:02,042 --> 00:29:05,667
Only 60 boys a year passed the
exam to go to the grammar school.
365
00:29:08,917 --> 00:29:11,958
It was a ladder for bright,
working-class kids to get out.
366
00:29:17,750 --> 00:29:21,250
We had an election in school, it
would have been the '50 election.
367
00:29:22,583 --> 00:29:24,833
To my shame, I stood as
the Conservative candidate.
368
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,476
Ken and I escaped.
369
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:46,351
We were lucky.
370
00:29:46,375 --> 00:29:49,958
Why not my friend down our street
who had to go to a secondary modern?
371
00:29:51,583 --> 00:29:54,476
So when a novel called
A Kestrel For A Knave
372
00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:57,726
arrived on my desk, we read it in one day.
373
00:29:57,750 --> 00:30:00,333
And we said, "We're going
to make a film of this."
374
00:30:02,917 --> 00:30:07,375
It went to something that Ken
and I were very, very affected by.
375
00:30:09,792 --> 00:30:12,792
The fate of working-class adolescents.
376
00:30:16,250 --> 00:30:19,518
The central idea was that
all kids are remarkable,
377
00:30:19,542 --> 00:30:24,518
and we learn something about
one boy who is cast as a failure
378
00:30:24,542 --> 00:30:27,143
by the school and the world.
379
00:30:27,167 --> 00:30:28,375
But we know he isn't.
380
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:32,059
And so we thought, well, if this is true,
381
00:30:32,083 --> 00:30:35,625
then we can go to any school
and we will find Billy Casper.
382
00:30:38,042 --> 00:30:40,059
This is Billy Casper.
383
00:30:40,083 --> 00:30:41,292
Billy Casper cheats.
384
00:30:42,292 --> 00:30:43,934
Steals.
385
00:30:43,958 --> 00:30:45,393
Lies.
386
00:30:45,417 --> 00:30:46,893
Fights.
387
00:30:46,917 --> 00:30:49,000
Because... Well, because he has to.
388
00:30:52,750 --> 00:30:57,351
My dad was a coal miner,
my mum was a seamstress,
389
00:30:57,375 --> 00:30:59,393
she'd worked as a cleaner.
390
00:30:59,417 --> 00:31:01,042
Whatever it took to make ends meet.
391
00:31:03,958 --> 00:31:07,083
I just knew I couldn't handle
working in a coal mine.
392
00:31:10,375 --> 00:31:13,476
And then I received a
letter, delivered by hand,
393
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:18,143
and there in purple writing, it
said something along the lines of,
394
00:31:18,167 --> 00:31:23,643
"Dear David, we would love for
you to play the part of Billy Casper
395
00:31:23,667 --> 00:31:26,625
"in our film, A Kestrel For A Knave."
396
00:31:29,042 --> 00:31:33,393
I can't possibly explain how excited I was.
397
00:31:33,417 --> 00:31:38,333
I wasn't frightened, because I felt
this is where I belonged, in a way.
398
00:32:10,417 --> 00:32:11,500
Come on.
399
00:32:12,875 --> 00:32:14,208
Come on.
400
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:37,143
What determined a lot of the
things about Kes, and the way it looks,
401
00:32:37,167 --> 00:32:42,726
begins with this central image
of the bird which flies free
402
00:32:42,750 --> 00:32:45,226
and the boy who is trapped.
403
00:32:45,250 --> 00:32:48,333
That is clearly what connects to people.
404
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:09,976
Ken and I, we quickly found
a way that was particular
405
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,125
and a good and simple way to work.
406
00:33:14,708 --> 00:33:18,184
Basically, dealing with people
who hadn't acted before,
407
00:33:18,208 --> 00:33:22,417
how do you remove the camera
crew from the experience?
408
00:33:25,958 --> 00:33:28,976
Our whole style of
observational film-making
409
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,708
came through conversations with Chris.
410
00:33:38,542 --> 00:33:40,625
We both saw the Czech films.
411
00:33:50,792 --> 00:33:52,542
The camera has its own...
412
00:33:54,458 --> 00:33:57,000
Its own sense of being a person observing.
413
00:33:59,042 --> 00:34:01,375
You become a person there.
414
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,684
It seemed to bring out the humanity
415
00:34:05,708 --> 00:34:07,833
of the people in front of the camera.
416
00:34:25,208 --> 00:34:28,375
What I found amazing was
that he trusted me so much.
417
00:34:29,583 --> 00:34:34,393
Ken would explain a scene
to me in very brief terms,
418
00:34:34,417 --> 00:34:38,809
so that when we came to do
the actual speech that Billy does
419
00:34:38,833 --> 00:34:40,351
in front of the class,
420
00:34:40,375 --> 00:34:45,559
I had only been given less than 24
hours to actually learn that scene.
421
00:34:45,583 --> 00:34:49,434
But I think Ken wanted that rough quality.
422
00:34:49,458 --> 00:34:52,559
Then, when it got to know
me, I fed it on my glove.
423
00:34:52,583 --> 00:34:57,518
And after a while I put it two
inches away from its claws.
424
00:34:57,542 --> 00:34:59,809
Like that, like.
425
00:34:59,833 --> 00:35:02,726
I didn't want him to
learn it too word-for-word,
426
00:35:02,750 --> 00:35:06,934
because the point of the
scene is not to tell the audience
427
00:35:06,958 --> 00:35:08,976
how to train a kestrel.
428
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,018
The point of the scene is for
a boy who can never string
429
00:35:13,042 --> 00:35:16,226
two words together to become articulate.
430
00:35:16,250 --> 00:35:19,893
I got about 70 yards from
there, in the middle of the field,
431
00:35:19,917 --> 00:35:22,434
I called her.
432
00:35:22,458 --> 00:35:26,059
"Kes. Kes. Come on, Kes. Come on then."
433
00:35:26,083 --> 00:35:27,184
Nowt happened.
434
00:35:27,208 --> 00:35:29,768
So I thought, "Well, I better
walk back and pick her up."
435
00:35:29,792 --> 00:35:33,375
So, when I were walking back, I
saw her flying - she came like a bomb.
436
00:35:34,833 --> 00:35:38,018
About a yard off the floor,
like lightning, head still,
437
00:35:38,042 --> 00:35:40,434
and you couldn't hear the
wings - there weren't a sound
438
00:35:40,458 --> 00:35:42,684
from the wings. And straight
on to the glove. Wham!
439
00:35:42,708 --> 00:35:46,143
And she'll grab me for the meat.
440
00:35:46,167 --> 00:35:49,708
Anyway, I were pleased with mysen...
441
00:35:57,708 --> 00:35:59,018
With Ken as a director,
442
00:35:59,042 --> 00:36:05,184
there is another side to his
loving relationship with the actors,
443
00:36:05,208 --> 00:36:07,125
his capacity to allow.
444
00:36:08,708 --> 00:36:11,000
And that other side is his...
445
00:36:12,833 --> 00:36:13,875
...ruthlessness.
446
00:36:18,875 --> 00:36:20,958
The children being beaten in Kes...
447
00:36:22,333 --> 00:36:25,934
The fact that he would allow
those kids to be beaten is horrific.
448
00:36:25,958 --> 00:36:27,083
I couldn't do that.
449
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:32,101
No. He had a point to make,
450
00:36:32,125 --> 00:36:36,559
that the headmaster had only
one response to this situation,
451
00:36:36,583 --> 00:36:39,893
and that was the response
at that time in our history -
452
00:36:39,917 --> 00:36:41,208
beat the kids.
453
00:36:44,125 --> 00:36:46,643
Same old faces.
454
00:36:46,667 --> 00:36:49,476
Same old faces.
455
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:53,434
We were told we weren't going to
get hit, so we hold out our hands,
456
00:36:53,458 --> 00:36:56,833
thinking that this is when Ken
Loach is going to say, "Cut."
457
00:36:57,833 --> 00:36:59,226
But he didn't.
458
00:36:59,250 --> 00:37:00,333
Ah!
459
00:37:02,833 --> 00:37:06,143
A regular little cigarette
factory, aren't you?
460
00:37:06,167 --> 00:37:08,375
Sir.
461
00:37:12,542 --> 00:37:13,625
Put that rubbish away.
462
00:37:37,458 --> 00:37:40,559
Now, I hope it's going
to be a lesson to you.
463
00:37:40,583 --> 00:37:43,559
I don't suppose for one minute it will be.
464
00:37:43,583 --> 00:37:46,601
I don't doubt, before the end of the week,
465
00:37:46,625 --> 00:37:50,417
you'll be back in here again for
exactly the same crime - smoking.
466
00:37:55,833 --> 00:38:03,833
I've noticed only sons with devoted
mothers to have characteristics
467
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,875
that other people may not have.
468
00:38:08,208 --> 00:38:10,042
Their self-belief is absolute.
469
00:38:11,625 --> 00:38:13,208
They seem to retain...
470
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:19,583
...the infantile omnipotence that
is appropriate in a five-year-old.
471
00:38:21,958 --> 00:38:23,708
And if you become a film director,
472
00:38:26,292 --> 00:38:29,559
that omnipotence, as it
were, can be preserved,
473
00:38:29,583 --> 00:38:33,809
because a world is created for you,
474
00:38:33,833 --> 00:38:35,708
in which you are omnipotent.
475
00:38:36,750 --> 00:38:40,434
And you can be quite benign,
476
00:38:40,458 --> 00:38:44,500
but it is your world to
manipulate how you wish.
477
00:39:14,250 --> 00:39:15,851
She says it's not just her.
478
00:39:15,875 --> 00:39:19,101
There's four other
women, four other families.
479
00:39:19,125 --> 00:39:21,768
It's me and my boys
and four other families.
480
00:39:21,792 --> 00:39:25,601
And this... She was in a hostel, was she?
481
00:39:25,625 --> 00:39:29,059
My phone rang at about five
o'clock, and it was my agent,
482
00:39:29,083 --> 00:39:33,559
and they said I'd got the
part, and it was a real sort of...
483
00:39:33,583 --> 00:39:35,643
It was a bit ridiculous, really.
484
00:39:35,667 --> 00:39:37,643
It was a real moment.
485
00:39:37,667 --> 00:39:39,726
My mum was downstairs cooking dinner.
486
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:41,309
I shouted her name really loudly
487
00:39:41,333 --> 00:39:43,226
and she dropped everything in the kitchen.
488
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:45,226
Ken give me a ring as well just to say,
489
00:39:45,250 --> 00:39:50,184
"Glad you're onboard," and I
thanked him and that was it.
490
00:39:50,208 --> 00:39:54,226
I think the girl that Paul's
written is quite complex.
491
00:39:54,250 --> 00:39:57,268
You want the girl to be
sharp, to have ambition,
492
00:39:57,292 --> 00:39:59,559
to see possibilities in the future.
493
00:39:59,583 --> 00:40:01,518
But, when tough times happen,
494
00:40:01,542 --> 00:40:06,976
I think I can imagine Hayley taking
a realistic view of where she is
495
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,101
and doing just what is
necessary to survive.
496
00:40:10,125 --> 00:40:13,476
I suppose that's the battle at the
beginning, isn't it, between the...?
497
00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:16,768
Getting out of that situation to
here... So anything's got to be good.
498
00:40:16,792 --> 00:40:18,995
But at the same time,
there's some real shit...
499
00:40:19,019 --> 00:40:20,019
Yes, yes, yes.
500
00:40:23,583 --> 00:40:26,351
It's like being a spy. It's
like being a spy, it's like...
501
00:40:26,375 --> 00:40:28,476
You go, "Is there any
sort of, like, script?"
502
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:32,893
And you go, "Yeah, well,
you get two pages in a toilet
503
00:40:32,917 --> 00:40:37,643
"in the centre of Newcastle
behind the hot water pipes."
504
00:40:37,667 --> 00:40:38,934
And you go, "OK."
505
00:40:38,958 --> 00:40:40,333
It's really sort of quite...
506
00:40:42,792 --> 00:40:47,559
It's exciting, but it's also a bit
sort of, "Oh, God, am I going to...
507
00:40:47,583 --> 00:40:49,351
"Am I going to get the stuff I need?"
508
00:40:49,375 --> 00:40:51,684
But, yeah, you know,
he's made plenty of films
509
00:40:51,708 --> 00:40:53,792
so I'm sure the process works, you know.
510
00:40:56,125 --> 00:40:58,184
- I don't like that shirt for him.
- No, no, no.
511
00:40:58,208 --> 00:40:59,434
It was just to get you in a...
512
00:40:59,458 --> 00:41:01,309
- Yeah, nice shirt.
- Yeah.
513
00:41:01,333 --> 00:41:03,518
David is as close as I think we could find
514
00:41:03,542 --> 00:41:05,059
to the Dan that Paul wrote.
515
00:41:05,083 --> 00:41:08,268
He's the right age, he's a
working-class man from Newcastle.
516
00:41:08,292 --> 00:41:10,726
He started work laying bricks
517
00:41:10,750 --> 00:41:14,768
and has experience doing
comedy and some acting.
518
00:41:14,792 --> 00:41:19,208
It means he's got a real sense
of how to deliver a performance.
519
00:41:20,375 --> 00:41:23,101
He communicates very directly, eye to eye.
520
00:41:23,125 --> 00:41:26,143
So, I think what he does is very truthful.
521
00:41:26,167 --> 00:41:27,684
Hi.
522
00:41:27,708 --> 00:41:29,268
We just wanted to show you this.
523
00:41:29,292 --> 00:41:30,934
You got it.
524
00:41:30,958 --> 00:41:32,559
It's the undertaker.
525
00:41:32,583 --> 00:41:35,268
Oh, my God, that's a bit serious.
526
00:41:35,292 --> 00:41:38,667
- Detective...
- I have reason to suspect...
527
00:41:40,708 --> 00:41:42,851
I think this is probably too much, really.
528
00:41:42,875 --> 00:41:45,184
- Too smart?
- Much too much.
- Yeah.
- Much too much.
529
00:41:45,208 --> 00:41:48,726
I mean, he looks like a Labour
politician that you want to...
530
00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:50,250
Who's betrayed his promises.
531
00:41:54,458 --> 00:42:00,434
I was pretty surprised at the
intensity with which, later on,
532
00:42:00,458 --> 00:42:07,101
all his work is imbued
with a political flavour,
533
00:42:07,125 --> 00:42:08,792
very strong political flavour.
534
00:42:10,208 --> 00:42:11,768
So, yes, it was very surprising,
535
00:42:11,792 --> 00:42:14,101
because there wasn't any evidence of that
536
00:42:14,125 --> 00:42:16,500
in the years we were together when young.
537
00:42:27,083 --> 00:42:29,833
Oxford was an extraordinary experience.
538
00:42:33,542 --> 00:42:37,184
It was only then that I became
really aware the ruling class
539
00:42:37,208 --> 00:42:40,976
had a face, and it was the
faces of these gilded youths
540
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,851
who inherited the world,
and who expected to rule it.
541
00:42:44,875 --> 00:42:46,542
And did.
542
00:42:48,917 --> 00:42:52,518
I met Ken when we were
both auditioning, I think,
543
00:42:52,542 --> 00:42:54,809
for a play in Oxford,
544
00:42:54,833 --> 00:42:59,809
and you'll see in the photograph a
rather slenderer version of myself
545
00:42:59,833 --> 00:43:03,309
in the foreground, but in the background,
546
00:43:03,333 --> 00:43:07,768
giving a character performance,
shall we say, is young Loach,
547
00:43:07,792 --> 00:43:11,809
heavily disguised by beard
and on one leg and a crutch.
548
00:43:11,833 --> 00:43:16,434
All of which he made the
very most of, and I detect,
549
00:43:16,458 --> 00:43:20,750
though I didn't detect it at the
time, being heavily upstaged by Ken.
550
00:43:25,083 --> 00:43:28,059
He was much the same
shape and size as he is now -
551
00:43:28,083 --> 00:43:31,042
slender, sylph-like indeed, maybe.
552
00:43:32,458 --> 00:43:34,476
Self-effacing.
553
00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:36,500
Apparently self-effacing.
554
00:43:37,833 --> 00:43:40,042
Nimble and brisk.
555
00:43:49,708 --> 00:43:52,309
That was a big event
for my mother and father,
556
00:43:52,333 --> 00:43:55,476
to get to Oxford and to do law,
557
00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:58,726
but it became plain I
wasn't going to be a lawyer,
558
00:43:58,750 --> 00:44:01,167
much to my mum and dad's dismay.
559
00:44:03,042 --> 00:44:06,101
My father said, "Well, you
can go off and be an actor,
560
00:44:06,125 --> 00:44:09,292
"but you'll never have two
pennies to rub together."
561
00:44:16,750 --> 00:44:20,726
When we came back from
Barnsley, and he shot Kes -
562
00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:23,143
couldn't get it released.
563
00:44:23,167 --> 00:44:25,309
The exhibitor thought,
"It won't take a penny,
564
00:44:25,333 --> 00:44:26,917
"so why waste money on marketing?"
565
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,059
They'd open it in six
cinemas in Yorkshire, thinking,
566
00:44:31,083 --> 00:44:33,101
"Oh, that'll be the end of that."
567
00:44:33,125 --> 00:44:36,768
And it broke the house record in every one.
568
00:44:36,792 --> 00:44:38,583
Then suddenly, we had a hit.
569
00:44:41,250 --> 00:44:45,351
While we were making
it, I literally, sort of...
570
00:44:45,375 --> 00:44:46,458
What's been happening?
571
00:44:48,167 --> 00:44:51,875
And what had been happening
were the May events in Paris in '68...
572
00:44:54,292 --> 00:44:56,375
...the Vietnam war was raging...
573
00:44:58,583 --> 00:45:03,601
...and disillusion, even amongst
not very political people,
574
00:45:03,625 --> 00:45:06,417
with Wilson and the Labour government.
575
00:45:09,958 --> 00:45:13,809
I was interested in
politics since my teens.
576
00:45:13,833 --> 00:45:16,000
I had known a lot of
Communist Party members.
577
00:45:17,458 --> 00:45:19,000
Ken was not political...
578
00:45:20,417 --> 00:45:24,309
...but he became more and
more interested in politics
579
00:45:24,333 --> 00:45:26,583
as we did our work together.
580
00:45:29,292 --> 00:45:31,434
And, of course, I
introduced him to Jim Allen,
581
00:45:31,458 --> 00:45:33,875
which was another
political step to the left.
582
00:45:37,125 --> 00:45:39,917
Jim Allen was a Manchester lad.
583
00:45:41,333 --> 00:45:44,333
A lot of people say up North,
"He was as rough as a bear's arse."
584
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:48,643
He'd been a docker,
585
00:45:48,667 --> 00:45:52,893
he'd worked on the barges,
he'd been a bus conductor,
586
00:45:52,917 --> 00:45:56,458
and he obviously had this gift for writing.
587
00:45:57,917 --> 00:45:59,476
He was the opposite to Ken.
588
00:45:59,500 --> 00:46:01,101
They were chalk and cheese.
589
00:46:01,125 --> 00:46:02,667
We're very different people.
590
00:46:03,708 --> 00:46:05,333
He's a very private person.
591
00:46:08,250 --> 00:46:10,101
I'm a bit of an extrovert.
592
00:46:10,125 --> 00:46:13,476
I like to get drunk, I love pubs, etc.
593
00:46:13,500 --> 00:46:16,083
I think one thing that
brings us together is that...
594
00:46:17,542 --> 00:46:22,518
...we have the same kind
of political approach to life.
595
00:46:22,542 --> 00:46:24,708
We would like things to be different.
596
00:46:28,667 --> 00:46:31,684
I don't think Ken had been born
with a silver spoon in his mouth,
597
00:46:31,708 --> 00:46:34,893
but I don't think he'd ever
had the knocks or the hardship
598
00:46:34,917 --> 00:46:36,458
that Jim Allen had had.
599
00:46:37,625 --> 00:46:39,684
He knew about being blacklisted,
600
00:46:39,708 --> 00:46:43,518
he knew about being on the dole
and out of work and stuff like that,
601
00:46:43,542 --> 00:46:48,059
and I think he was able to
put it on paper, in writing,
602
00:46:48,083 --> 00:46:49,375
for Ken to understand.
603
00:46:56,792 --> 00:47:01,393
What he got was that there were
two powerful forces at work in society.
604
00:47:01,417 --> 00:47:04,268
There is capital and there is labour,
605
00:47:04,292 --> 00:47:05,583
and they are enemies.
606
00:47:12,208 --> 00:47:15,893
If you make a film about
a socialist movement,
607
00:47:15,917 --> 00:47:18,917
it's a given what the class conflict is.
608
00:47:21,042 --> 00:47:23,167
It's... How do you win the power?
609
00:47:24,125 --> 00:47:26,601
And who is there to stop you?
610
00:47:26,625 --> 00:47:27,833
CHEERING
611
00:47:29,833 --> 00:47:31,393
Solidarity!
612
00:47:31,417 --> 00:47:34,601
CROWD: ♪ Solidarity forever
613
00:47:34,625 --> 00:47:38,351
♪ Solidarity forever. ♪
614
00:47:38,375 --> 00:47:40,768
Jim had been through it.
615
00:47:40,792 --> 00:47:42,143
What I want to know is,
616
00:47:42,167 --> 00:47:45,809
what is Brother Hagen doing
about our long outstanding claim
617
00:47:45,833 --> 00:47:48,059
for a two and sixpence an hour increase?
618
00:47:48,083 --> 00:47:52,726
He knew about the betrayals
of trade union bureaucrats.
619
00:47:52,750 --> 00:47:55,250
Now, listen, half a crown an
hour, you must be bloody...
620
00:47:56,792 --> 00:48:00,601
He knew that the role of the Labour Party
621
00:48:00,625 --> 00:48:03,917
was to deliver the
working class to betrayal.
622
00:48:05,042 --> 00:48:08,268
I believe that those are the
men that can win the struggle,
623
00:48:08,292 --> 00:48:12,101
could win it much quicker only if
we can get help from other workers.
624
00:48:12,125 --> 00:48:16,018
Jim made the ideas flesh in his writing.
625
00:48:16,042 --> 00:48:21,042
That drama of political
argument, driven by need...
626
00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:25,542
...I think was the essence of
drama, it was the essence of conflict.
627
00:48:31,083 --> 00:48:35,417
The problem with the BBC is that
I didn't know how far I could push.
628
00:48:36,542 --> 00:48:39,393
If I didn't push far enough or hard enough,
629
00:48:39,417 --> 00:48:41,601
I'd be missing an opportunity.
630
00:48:41,625 --> 00:48:44,333
If I pushed too far, we'd be dead.
631
00:48:52,958 --> 00:48:57,268
As usual, with The Big Flame, I
had not shown the BBC anything,
632
00:48:57,292 --> 00:48:59,768
because they would have hit the roof.
633
00:48:59,792 --> 00:49:01,809
I just said, "It's a love story,
634
00:49:01,833 --> 00:49:06,934
"a sort of Romeo and Juliet between
the son and daughter of two dockers,
635
00:49:06,958 --> 00:49:09,393
"one Catholic and one Protestant."
636
00:49:09,417 --> 00:49:13,143
And that's what I told the
Mersey Docks and Harbour Board,
637
00:49:13,167 --> 00:49:15,083
who owned our location.
638
00:49:16,792 --> 00:49:19,333
Now, everyone in favour of
the resolution, please show.
639
00:49:20,917 --> 00:49:24,768
But what we actually
did was get a strike going.
640
00:49:24,792 --> 00:49:27,292
And then the dockers stayed on the dock...
641
00:49:28,667 --> 00:49:30,559
...declaring a soviet.
642
00:49:30,583 --> 00:49:35,226
The root cause of our problem
lies in the capitalist system of
643
00:49:35,250 --> 00:49:38,976
private ownership and calls
for the nationalisation of the dock
644
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,768
and the shipping industry
under the workers' control.
645
00:49:42,792 --> 00:49:46,309
I was in London and I got a
phone call to say the film was off,
646
00:49:46,333 --> 00:49:49,643
because the Mersey Docks and
Harbour Board had seen the script.
647
00:49:49,667 --> 00:49:52,143
And I laughed, and said,
648
00:49:52,167 --> 00:49:55,684
"Do you honestly think the BBC would allow
649
00:49:55,708 --> 00:50:01,518
"a film about dockers declaring
a soviet on the docks of...
650
00:50:01,542 --> 00:50:04,934
"Do you think they'd allow
that to happen? Come on."
651
00:50:04,958 --> 00:50:06,768
And they were reassured.
652
00:50:06,792 --> 00:50:11,809
All day long, convoys of troops
have been arriving as this takeover
653
00:50:11,833 --> 00:50:15,309
by 10,000 Merseyside
dockers enters its second day.
654
00:50:15,333 --> 00:50:18,559
And eventually, of course,
the Army was brought in.
655
00:50:18,583 --> 00:50:23,393
They were betrayed by their
so-called friends and leaders
656
00:50:23,417 --> 00:50:26,893
and ended up in court
and were sent to jail.
657
00:50:26,917 --> 00:50:31,309
This theory of social revolution
becomes as dangerous
658
00:50:31,333 --> 00:50:34,851
as a loaded pistol in
the hands of a criminal.
659
00:50:34,875 --> 00:50:37,934
Officer, arrest those two men.
660
00:50:37,958 --> 00:50:44,143
I think Ken's politics gelled in
that early work with Jim and me,
661
00:50:44,167 --> 00:50:46,250
and when he got it, he got it.
662
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:50,851
And...
663
00:50:50,875 --> 00:50:53,226
you won't shift him now.
664
00:50:53,250 --> 00:50:57,559
Obviously, we use the hallway,
we use this room, the kitchen,
665
00:50:57,583 --> 00:51:00,059
the bathroom, the stairs.
666
00:51:00,083 --> 00:51:04,750
'If you make films about
people's lives, politics is essential.'
667
00:51:06,375 --> 00:51:10,875
When she collapses, we'll probably
take some stuff round here...
668
00:51:12,333 --> 00:51:17,309
If you're making a film about a
family, what determines those lives?
669
00:51:17,333 --> 00:51:19,726
And then at some point,
670
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:23,143
she'll make her way round the bed
671
00:51:23,167 --> 00:51:26,434
and then we'll cut to him on that shot.
672
00:51:26,458 --> 00:51:29,184
The starting point is, where do we live?
673
00:51:29,208 --> 00:51:30,434
What work do you do?
674
00:51:30,458 --> 00:51:33,434
How does that affect your relationship?
675
00:51:33,458 --> 00:51:35,934
Do you go on holiday?
What did your parents do?
676
00:51:35,958 --> 00:51:37,583
What was your upbringing?
677
00:51:41,250 --> 00:51:46,809
They're all this result of
political struggle over generations.
678
00:51:46,833 --> 00:51:49,208
So, in a way, you can't walk away from it.
679
00:51:58,625 --> 00:52:01,875
The present situation is
not the fault of the miners.
680
00:52:03,667 --> 00:52:08,018
We are the victims of an
industry that has been ruined
681
00:52:08,042 --> 00:52:10,976
by private ownership,
and this private ownership
682
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,000
is also ruining the country.
683
00:52:19,833 --> 00:52:23,601
We would've gone on working together,
684
00:52:23,625 --> 00:52:25,458
but things were closing down.
685
00:52:29,667 --> 00:52:33,750
The regime at the BBC made it
plain that we weren't welcome.
686
00:52:42,292 --> 00:52:44,601
The British film industry...
687
00:52:44,625 --> 00:52:48,083
There was certainly no place for
the kinds of films that we wanted to do.
688
00:52:51,792 --> 00:52:54,601
There was a period when he
couldn't find the money for his films,
689
00:52:54,625 --> 00:52:57,101
and neither could anyone else.
690
00:52:57,125 --> 00:52:59,851
And what happened was that my generation,
691
00:52:59,875 --> 00:53:03,059
we all went to the United States
and we were able to make films about
692
00:53:03,083 --> 00:53:07,458
American life in a way that Ken
absolutely was not prepared to do.
693
00:53:11,833 --> 00:53:14,309
Family Life - in England,
they said it didn't take enough
694
00:53:14,333 --> 00:53:16,476
to pay the usherettes.
695
00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:20,643
Black Jack - that opened in
a soft porn cinema in Leeds.
696
00:53:20,667 --> 00:53:22,833
What it was doing up there, God knows.
697
00:53:25,208 --> 00:53:26,476
With that track record,
698
00:53:26,500 --> 00:53:29,500
there was no chance of
getting a feature film made.
699
00:53:38,792 --> 00:53:41,726
It was as though a time was over,
700
00:53:41,750 --> 00:53:43,875
a period of one's life was over.
701
00:53:49,333 --> 00:53:53,167
Ken was also in a state of some...
702
00:53:54,625 --> 00:53:55,750
...difficulty.
703
00:53:56,917 --> 00:53:58,934
It was very...
704
00:53:58,958 --> 00:54:00,042
personal.
705
00:54:07,458 --> 00:54:08,917
It certainly changes you.
706
00:54:10,250 --> 00:54:15,167
I mean, anyone who loses a
child will be changed with it forever.
707
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,934
Before that, you know
what a kind of happiness is,
708
00:54:22,958 --> 00:54:25,268
and after that you never do.
709
00:54:25,292 --> 00:54:28,684
And there's a stone in your
stomach that never goes away, really.
710
00:54:28,708 --> 00:54:29,792
So...
711
00:54:37,250 --> 00:54:42,226
We were driving along the M1 on a Sunday.
712
00:54:42,250 --> 00:54:45,643
A car on an inside lane
713
00:54:45,667 --> 00:54:46,976
had a defective...
714
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,226
Was defective in some way.
715
00:54:48,250 --> 00:54:52,851
A wheel came off, the car drove
into us, it pushed us into a bridge,
716
00:54:52,875 --> 00:54:54,500
the upright of a bridge.
717
00:54:57,333 --> 00:55:01,643
My wife, Lesley, was...
718
00:55:01,667 --> 00:55:05,417
Fought for her life for
six weeks and survived.
719
00:55:06,583 --> 00:55:09,059
Her grandmother was killed.
720
00:55:09,083 --> 00:55:11,643
Our eldest son,
721
00:55:11,667 --> 00:55:15,708
who was seven, survived, and I survived.
722
00:55:17,292 --> 00:55:19,542
Our second son, who was five, was killed.
723
00:55:23,375 --> 00:55:24,750
And that's...
724
00:55:26,458 --> 00:55:28,559
...how that happened, really.
725
00:55:28,583 --> 00:55:29,684
And...
726
00:55:29,708 --> 00:55:31,726
Well, it...
727
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:33,292
Well, it changes you.
728
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,601
- MARGARET THATCHER:
- We will not disguise our purpose,
729
00:56:09,625 --> 00:56:11,375
nor betray our principles.
730
00:56:13,167 --> 00:56:16,601
We will do what must be done.
731
00:56:16,625 --> 00:56:19,559
We will tell the people the truth,
732
00:56:19,583 --> 00:56:22,750
and the people will be our judge.
733
00:56:38,333 --> 00:56:39,417
I was struggling.
734
00:56:41,750 --> 00:56:46,750
And there was this sudden
desperate mood in the country.
735
00:56:49,583 --> 00:56:53,518
Day after day, factories
were going to the wall.
736
00:56:53,542 --> 00:56:55,351
Mass unemployment.
737
00:56:55,375 --> 00:56:56,458
And this was raging.
738
00:57:00,667 --> 00:57:02,958
I didn't know how to respond.
739
00:57:08,167 --> 00:57:10,393
So, I tried documentaries,
740
00:57:10,417 --> 00:57:13,375
but with disastrous consequences.
741
00:57:17,083 --> 00:57:19,934
Three cheers for the destruction
of Maggie's government.
742
00:57:19,958 --> 00:57:21,351
Hip-hip!
743
00:57:21,375 --> 00:57:25,601
Central Television proposed
this series of films by Ken Loach,
744
00:57:25,625 --> 00:57:28,768
wonderful film-maker, about
the British trade union movement.
745
00:57:28,792 --> 00:57:30,958
Hooray. Commissioned immediately.
746
00:57:33,792 --> 00:57:36,768
In the press, all you would
read about were union barons
747
00:57:36,792 --> 00:57:38,809
encouraging their members to strike.
748
00:57:38,833 --> 00:57:40,375
The reverse was the case.
749
00:57:42,542 --> 00:57:47,184
People at the shop-floor level
were ready to fight Thatcher,
750
00:57:47,208 --> 00:57:49,226
but the trade union
leaders were doing a deal.
751
00:57:49,250 --> 00:57:52,684
That is the biggest load of
codswallop that I have ever heard.
752
00:57:52,708 --> 00:57:55,018
Because we obtained, for...
753
00:57:55,042 --> 00:57:58,893
The films arrived.
Unfortunately, each one said,
754
00:57:58,917 --> 00:58:01,851
"The leaders of the trade union
movement had betrayed the workers.
755
00:58:01,875 --> 00:58:04,851
"The leaders of the trade union
movement had betrayed the workers,"
756
00:58:04,875 --> 00:58:06,143
and film number three said,
757
00:58:06,167 --> 00:58:09,143
"The leaders of the trade union
movement had betrayed the workers."
758
00:58:09,167 --> 00:58:10,559
How can those at the bottom...
759
00:58:10,583 --> 00:58:13,559
how can the working class
actually control the leaders?
760
00:58:13,583 --> 00:58:16,059
The chairman of Channel 4 thought,
761
00:58:16,083 --> 00:58:18,684
"This is a left wing
rant, I'm not having it."
762
00:58:18,708 --> 00:58:20,184
And they stopped them.
763
00:58:20,208 --> 00:58:22,226
But the way they did
it is very interesting,
764
00:58:22,250 --> 00:58:24,268
because they did it in a very British way.
765
00:58:24,292 --> 00:58:27,268
They didn't say, you know... Like,
if it was in Poland or somewhere,
766
00:58:27,292 --> 00:58:29,851
they'd say, "OK, you're
sent to... Go to the salt mine."
767
00:58:29,875 --> 00:58:30,976
They didn't say that.
768
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,518
They said, "Let's think about this.
769
00:58:33,542 --> 00:58:35,768
"Let's provide a little balance."
770
00:58:35,792 --> 00:58:38,559
I don't mind dealing with the
questions. What I don't want to be
771
00:58:38,583 --> 00:58:41,309
is tricked into saying something,
then you're going to marry it
772
00:58:41,333 --> 00:58:42,809
to something somebody else says.
773
00:58:42,833 --> 00:58:45,268
It was quite clear that the
trade union leaders knew
774
00:58:45,292 --> 00:58:47,601
what was going on, they
knew what Ken was up to,
775
00:58:47,625 --> 00:58:50,934
and they did everything they
possibly could to ban the films.
776
00:58:50,958 --> 00:58:55,101
I think, as far as I'm concerned,
you've not been fair with me.
777
00:58:55,125 --> 00:58:57,476
And if you want to put
this on the camera, you can.
778
00:58:57,500 --> 00:59:01,976
At which point, the chair of the
channel announced that he had taken
779
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,351
unilateral action and he'd
sent the films back to Central
780
00:59:05,375 --> 00:59:06,833
as untransmittable.
781
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,042
End of story.
782
00:59:20,458 --> 00:59:25,393
The miners' strike was the pivotal
event of our post-war history,
783
00:59:25,417 --> 00:59:27,643
and everybody knew what was at stake -
784
00:59:27,667 --> 00:59:30,875
it was the success of the
Thatcher project, or its defeat.
785
00:59:33,875 --> 00:59:38,726
I tried the usual channels to make
a film about it, without success.
786
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:40,101
Everybody said no.
787
00:59:40,125 --> 00:59:42,351
Who am I to ask them why
788
00:59:42,375 --> 00:59:43,934
this pit must live,
789
00:59:43,958 --> 00:59:45,518
that pit must die?
790
00:59:45,542 --> 00:59:48,768
Ken came and said, "Look, a lot
of good work's being done here,
791
00:59:48,792 --> 00:59:52,143
"there's a lot of poetry and
songs coming out of the strike,
792
00:59:52,167 --> 00:59:54,226
"and I'd like to do a film about that."
793
00:59:54,250 --> 00:59:55,601
And I said, "What a great idea.
794
00:59:55,625 --> 00:59:56,976
"Let's do it."
795
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,018
These treble lines of blue
796
00:59:59,042 --> 01:00:03,018
that escort the scabs through the gates...
797
01:00:03,042 --> 01:00:05,625
I think he thought he'd made an arts film.
798
01:00:09,708 --> 01:00:12,476
There was a pause again when
we'd made it, and they said,
799
01:00:12,500 --> 01:00:15,143
"I don't think we're going
to be able to show this."
800
01:00:15,167 --> 01:00:18,351
ITV companies in those days, 15 of them,
801
01:00:18,375 --> 01:00:22,726
every so often had to rebid
for the right to broadcast.
802
01:00:22,750 --> 01:00:26,601
And the power of withholding the
franchise was being murmured about
803
01:00:26,625 --> 01:00:27,958
and being invoked.
804
01:00:30,708 --> 01:00:33,684
I said, "Well, that's what
they're writing about.
805
01:00:33,708 --> 01:00:36,476
"If you listen, this is what
their poems are about,
806
01:00:36,500 --> 01:00:38,518
"this is what their songs are about,
807
01:00:38,542 --> 01:00:40,893
"about police brutality."
808
01:00:40,917 --> 01:00:42,018
"Can't show that."
809
01:00:42,042 --> 01:00:44,809
We are talking about people
who are losing their franchises,
810
01:00:44,833 --> 01:00:47,893
ie, an entire company's future.
811
01:00:47,917 --> 01:00:51,726
And they saw this looming, because
Ken had been banned over there,
812
01:00:51,750 --> 01:00:54,268
as some of them thought, for good reasons.
813
01:00:54,292 --> 01:00:56,476
I mean, it was like that at that stage...
814
01:00:56,500 --> 01:00:58,351
I don't think that's good enough.
815
01:00:58,375 --> 01:00:59,684
I mean, you either believe...
816
01:00:59,708 --> 01:01:03,601
You either have integrity
as a broadcaster or you don't.
817
01:01:03,625 --> 01:01:06,833
I think they had no
integrity by suppressing it.
818
01:01:16,792 --> 01:01:21,601
We must have overheard that
the films were being cancelled,
819
01:01:21,625 --> 01:01:26,851
and we just became completely
incensed that this was happening,
820
01:01:26,875 --> 01:01:28,809
and thought we would write to Channel 4.
821
01:01:28,833 --> 01:01:32,309
I think we might have written a
couple of letters, I think we might
822
01:01:32,333 --> 01:01:35,434
have written, and then a couple
of weeks later, written again,
823
01:01:35,458 --> 01:01:39,684
to say that Dad was really tired,
824
01:01:39,708 --> 01:01:43,393
and had been going up
and down to London a lot,
825
01:01:43,417 --> 01:01:45,542
and we thought that was outrageous.
826
01:01:47,542 --> 01:01:51,934
It was a touching act of family solidarity,
827
01:01:51,958 --> 01:01:54,268
which was very nice of them.
828
01:01:54,292 --> 01:01:56,375
He was mortified that we...
829
01:01:57,917 --> 01:01:59,018
...had all written.
830
01:01:59,042 --> 01:02:02,059
I mean, it's excruciatingly embarrassing
831
01:02:02,083 --> 01:02:04,625
and completely undermined his authority.
832
01:02:20,542 --> 01:02:24,851
In the midst of this failure to
get anything broadcast at all,
833
01:02:24,875 --> 01:02:28,500
Jim Allen had been
beavering away on a play.
834
01:02:41,708 --> 01:02:43,809
I thought it fell within the spectrum
835
01:02:43,833 --> 01:02:45,667
of work that we could support.
836
01:02:47,667 --> 01:02:49,000
I knew that it would be...
837
01:02:50,208 --> 01:02:53,851
...provocative, but I had
little idea how provocative
838
01:02:53,875 --> 01:02:56,708
and what a storm it would raise.
839
01:02:59,208 --> 01:03:02,101
I went to the Royal Court and I met Ken,
840
01:03:02,125 --> 01:03:05,809
his polite, charming,
quiet, self-effacing self,
841
01:03:05,833 --> 01:03:07,643
and I thought to myself,
842
01:03:07,667 --> 01:03:10,917
"How did this guy direct that stuff?"
843
01:03:13,125 --> 01:03:14,476
Because I had expected
844
01:03:14,500 --> 01:03:17,333
a more Oliver Stone-type
presence, you know.
845
01:03:20,292 --> 01:03:22,393
Two weeks into the rehearsal,
846
01:03:22,417 --> 01:03:27,393
we began to hear the
rumblings of discontent.
847
01:03:27,417 --> 01:03:30,351
Good evening. You won't
have seen Jim Allen's
848
01:03:30,375 --> 01:03:33,333
controversial courtroom drama, Perdition.
849
01:03:34,875 --> 01:03:38,393
The play is based on the events
which led to the extermination
850
01:03:38,417 --> 01:03:42,976
of Hungarian Jews, and accuses
Zionist leaders of collaborating
851
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,750
with Nazi Adolf Eichmann in
sending them to the gas chambers.
852
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:57,000
Jim found this story that a deal
was done by certain Zionist leaders
853
01:03:57,125 --> 01:03:58,851
in Budapest,
854
01:03:58,875 --> 01:04:02,601
that they would keep secret from
the other Jews who were going to get on
855
01:04:02,625 --> 01:04:06,434
the trains, they would keep secret
the destination of those trains,
856
01:04:06,458 --> 01:04:11,643
provided Eichmann gave permission
for 1,000 or several thousand Jews
857
01:04:11,667 --> 01:04:13,500
to escape to Palestine.
858
01:04:15,333 --> 01:04:18,250
And it was a shocking, shocking bargain.
859
01:04:20,792 --> 01:04:25,059
People who hadn't read the play were
beginning to give judgment about it.
860
01:04:25,083 --> 01:04:27,934
They were saying that the play
was anti-Semitic and that it was
861
01:04:27,958 --> 01:04:30,101
selective in what it showed.
862
01:04:30,125 --> 01:04:34,101
What would you say was
Eichmann's biggest problem, Dr Yaron?
863
01:04:34,125 --> 01:04:40,708
And, within a week, every
newspaper had a huge full-page article.
864
01:04:43,375 --> 01:04:44,917
This was serious.
865
01:04:47,625 --> 01:04:49,875
Outside, a storm was brewing.
866
01:04:51,500 --> 01:04:54,417
One of the actors had a
swastika painted on his door.
867
01:04:56,417 --> 01:04:59,018
There was a sense that
this was now a kind of...
868
01:04:59,042 --> 01:05:02,917
Not just a controversial play,
but a potentially dangerous play.
869
01:05:06,250 --> 01:05:09,292
My relationship with Ken
broke down completely.
870
01:05:10,917 --> 01:05:13,601
He had an inflexible set of principles
871
01:05:13,625 --> 01:05:15,875
that really couldn't be questioned.
872
01:05:17,250 --> 01:05:20,601
I suppose I became more and
more uncomfortable with my position
873
01:05:20,625 --> 01:05:22,000
of defending the play.
874
01:05:23,625 --> 01:05:26,226
Jim Allen, you've seen, around this table,
875
01:05:26,250 --> 01:05:31,643
the offence your play has
created and the distress it causes.
876
01:05:31,667 --> 01:05:35,018
Do you still think it
would be right to put it on?
877
01:05:35,042 --> 01:05:39,143
Yes. It causes distress to
these people who are here
878
01:05:39,167 --> 01:05:41,518
as the representatives of Zionism.
879
01:05:41,542 --> 01:05:44,018
It lets the skeletons out of the cupboard
880
01:05:44,042 --> 01:05:46,559
and they will do anything
possible to prevent the public
881
01:05:46,583 --> 01:05:48,976
seeing Perdition and
making up their own mind.
882
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,893
They bowed to pressure. Just
before we were due to open,
883
01:05:51,917 --> 01:05:55,518
I said, "Max, you'll have to tell
the cast and it's your decision".
884
01:05:55,542 --> 01:05:59,809
So they sat in the auditorium
and he sat on the stage,
885
01:05:59,833 --> 01:06:02,000
and he said he was going to cancel it.
886
01:06:03,458 --> 01:06:06,208
And they tore him to pieces.
887
01:06:09,583 --> 01:06:11,268
Ken Loach stood on that stage,
888
01:06:11,292 --> 01:06:15,393
and I really wish that I had
memorised what he said,
889
01:06:15,417 --> 01:06:17,542
but it was articulate and it was...
890
01:06:19,625 --> 01:06:21,518
...ruthless
891
01:06:21,542 --> 01:06:24,143
and it was accusatory.
892
01:06:24,167 --> 01:06:27,059
He left the stage like a broken
man, and well he should be.
893
01:06:27,083 --> 01:06:30,018
I mean, I think that was despicable.
894
01:06:30,042 --> 01:06:32,726
I mean, I think I made two mistakes.
895
01:06:32,750 --> 01:06:34,726
One was on putting the play on,
896
01:06:34,750 --> 01:06:36,792
and the second was on taking it off.
897
01:06:37,833 --> 01:06:42,143
So I am not proud of my
own behaviour over that time.
898
01:06:42,167 --> 01:06:43,559
But, at the same time,
899
01:06:43,583 --> 01:06:49,559
we headed into an area that
I thought was far from clear.
900
01:06:49,583 --> 01:06:52,184
Max is... It was not a
mistake, it was cowardice.
901
01:06:52,208 --> 01:06:57,018
Cowardice isn't a mistake, it's
a choice, and it's a moral choice.
902
01:06:57,042 --> 01:06:58,208
He chose cowardice.
903
01:06:59,833 --> 01:07:04,226
What he reminds me of is of the old
knights who used to go at each other
904
01:07:04,250 --> 01:07:10,684
with big long lances and try to
kill each other from their horses.
905
01:07:10,708 --> 01:07:17,768
Ken is much more of the kind of
knight who dislodges the other rider
906
01:07:17,792 --> 01:07:22,518
with his lance and then stands
gently and respectfully over them
907
01:07:22,542 --> 01:07:27,643
as he pushes back a small
opening in their armour
908
01:07:27,667 --> 01:07:29,268
and slits a vein
909
01:07:29,292 --> 01:07:31,250
and watches them bleed to death.
910
01:07:33,583 --> 01:07:35,809
And he did that in the
Royal Court that day,
911
01:07:35,833 --> 01:07:38,268
and I watch him do it
when he's on television.
912
01:07:38,292 --> 01:07:42,268
You see, the thing about it
is, what they call intractable,
913
01:07:42,292 --> 01:07:44,000
what they call unchanging...
914
01:07:46,167 --> 01:07:48,893
...it's what makes him be that powerful.
915
01:07:48,917 --> 01:07:53,226
And it's a wonderful thing
to see such quiet power.
916
01:07:53,250 --> 01:07:54,476
It's an amazing...
917
01:07:54,500 --> 01:07:56,851
It's an amazing thing to watch.
918
01:07:56,875 --> 01:07:58,958
And I would not like to cross him.
919
01:08:13,625 --> 01:08:17,768
Every son or child, I think,
remembers that moment
920
01:08:17,792 --> 01:08:20,601
when they realise their
dad is not all-powerful
921
01:08:20,625 --> 01:08:22,750
and can't sort out every situation.
922
01:08:26,833 --> 01:08:30,851
It was the first time I'd really seen him
923
01:08:30,875 --> 01:08:33,875
with a sort of defeated look on his face.
924
01:08:43,042 --> 01:08:45,601
We were forbidden to talk
about the commercials -
925
01:08:45,625 --> 01:08:48,000
it's even now a kind
of elephant in the room.
926
01:08:49,792 --> 01:08:52,250
I think it was either make
them or we move house.
927
01:09:01,875 --> 01:09:05,208
After that experience, I was
pretty well unemployable, really.
928
01:09:06,542 --> 01:09:09,309
It didn't sit very happily with...
929
01:09:09,333 --> 01:09:13,726
With me at the time, having
expressed the views I'd expressed,
930
01:09:13,750 --> 01:09:15,726
but I didn't see the alternative, really.
931
01:09:15,750 --> 01:09:18,143
Come on, man. Flick it in, go on.
932
01:09:18,167 --> 01:09:20,226
Useless! Absolutely useless!
933
01:09:20,250 --> 01:09:22,643
How can you miss from the
six-yard box, tell me that?
934
01:09:22,667 --> 01:09:24,601
Your mum could do better than that.
935
01:09:24,625 --> 01:09:25,958
Useless!
936
01:09:27,958 --> 01:09:30,958
(Caramac. The golden creamy bar.)
937
01:09:32,250 --> 01:09:34,601
I did one for McDonald's, yeah,
938
01:09:34,625 --> 01:09:38,184
which, erm, sits really
badly on my conscience.
939
01:09:38,208 --> 01:09:40,018
- You like that?
- I do like it, but do you?
940
01:09:40,042 --> 01:09:42,309
Well, let's have that,
then. I love it, really.
941
01:09:42,333 --> 01:09:46,143
- Honestly, really.
- He's driving me mad.
942
01:09:46,167 --> 01:09:47,976
Big Mac. I'll have a Big Mac, please.
943
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,726
100% beef, 100% big.
944
01:09:50,750 --> 01:09:52,667
Sometimes only a Big Mac will do.
945
01:09:54,333 --> 01:09:57,542
Here's me berating other people
for betrayal, and I've done that.
946
01:10:21,500 --> 01:10:26,809
When we were growing up, there
was a complete firewall, I would say,
947
01:10:26,833 --> 01:10:31,393
between our family
life and the film industry.
948
01:10:31,417 --> 01:10:34,184
OK, here we go. And turning over...
949
01:10:34,208 --> 01:10:36,226
And... OK, Dave.
950
01:10:36,250 --> 01:10:38,684
We thought Ken Loach was somebody else.
951
01:10:38,708 --> 01:10:41,684
You know, we thought he was another person.
952
01:10:41,708 --> 01:10:43,934
Good, that worked quite nicely.
953
01:10:43,958 --> 01:10:46,226
Yeah, we'll just try one more like that.
954
01:10:46,250 --> 01:10:48,351
I remember, when I was very young,
955
01:10:48,375 --> 01:10:52,268
kind of realising that he
was my dad, you know.
956
01:10:52,292 --> 01:10:54,351
And up to that point I think we'd thought
957
01:10:54,375 --> 01:10:55,976
he was someone else entirely.
958
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,518
Don't go in. Who's put that pillock in?
959
01:10:59,542 --> 01:11:01,351
Jesus Christ.
960
01:11:01,375 --> 01:11:02,976
He was always away a lot,
961
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:04,518
working away from home.
962
01:11:04,542 --> 01:11:05,726
So, he wasn't around.
963
01:11:05,750 --> 01:11:09,601
There were times when he
wasn't around very much.
964
01:11:09,625 --> 01:11:11,518
We'll race back as soon as we can.
965
01:11:11,542 --> 01:11:13,684
Can you bear one more?
Can you bear it, yeah?
966
01:11:13,708 --> 01:11:17,018
There is a side of him that works,
967
01:11:17,042 --> 01:11:21,018
and there is also a quiet side to my dad,
968
01:11:21,042 --> 01:11:24,708
quiet and reflective and quite private.
969
01:11:26,708 --> 01:11:28,559
Get the lad!
970
01:11:28,583 --> 01:11:34,934
Ken Loach is fearless,
indestructible, fiercely loyal,
971
01:11:34,958 --> 01:11:36,893
absolutely driven.
972
01:11:36,917 --> 01:11:38,143
Fucking hell.
973
01:11:38,167 --> 01:11:42,125
But my dad is very
distinct from that person.
974
01:11:45,250 --> 01:11:48,893
As a failed actor, he loves musicals.
975
01:11:48,917 --> 01:11:50,726
He loves dancing, and he loves...
976
01:11:50,750 --> 01:11:52,434
Not that he dances, thank God.
977
01:11:52,458 --> 01:11:57,351
But he does love musicals
and, sort of, the more camp
978
01:11:57,375 --> 01:11:59,833
and the more glossy they are, the better.
979
01:12:01,417 --> 01:12:04,851
♪ One singular sensation
980
01:12:04,875 --> 01:12:08,143
♪ Every little step she takes. ♪
981
01:12:08,167 --> 01:12:10,333
It's not contradictory to me.
982
01:12:11,833 --> 01:12:16,643
I guess, in musicals, they have
quite a sort of simple morality,
983
01:12:16,667 --> 01:12:18,976
which, I guess, you
know, is quite nice, isn't it?
984
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:21,101
And I suppose it's escapism.
985
01:12:21,125 --> 01:12:23,976
You know... And he's a bit camp, isn't he?
986
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:25,976
So, he likes all that.
987
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:27,667
He likes men dressing up.
988
01:12:31,875 --> 01:12:34,143
- KENNETH WILLIAMS:
- Hold hands. This is an upstick.
989
01:12:34,167 --> 01:12:36,268
Up with your sticks, this is a hand-hold.
990
01:12:36,292 --> 01:12:38,768
- I beg your pardon.
- I mean, this is a stick up.
991
01:12:38,792 --> 01:12:44,309
The first professional job I got
was understudying in a revue called
992
01:12:44,333 --> 01:12:45,476
One Over The Eight.
993
01:12:45,500 --> 01:12:47,434
Oh, stop messing about.
994
01:12:47,458 --> 01:12:50,726
Kenneth Williams and Sheila
Hancock were the leads.
995
01:12:50,750 --> 01:12:54,643
There was this funny little man
who was understudying Kenneth.
996
01:12:54,667 --> 01:12:57,708
I mean, it's an unlikely
place for him to have been.
997
01:12:59,125 --> 01:13:01,643
I have an image of him in the wings.
998
01:13:01,667 --> 01:13:02,833
I think he was a bit scared.
999
01:13:05,458 --> 01:13:07,893
We had to go through the
dance routines with an actor
1000
01:13:07,917 --> 01:13:10,934
called Jill Gascoigne - she
had to gallop across the stage.
1001
01:13:10,958 --> 01:13:15,893
As she arrived, I had to grab her
round the waist and swivel her over
1002
01:13:15,917 --> 01:13:17,643
and put her upright.
1003
01:13:17,667 --> 01:13:19,726
And I was hopeless at this.
1004
01:13:19,750 --> 01:13:23,518
And she was a bonny lass, she was not...
1005
01:13:23,542 --> 01:13:26,083
sylph-like, at least, but, I mean, very...
1006
01:13:27,125 --> 01:13:29,768
Good dancer. But I would
seize her round the waist,
1007
01:13:29,792 --> 01:13:32,101
and she'd be saying, "Get
me over, get me over!"
1008
01:13:32,125 --> 01:13:34,934
And, invariably, she would
end up with her head on the floor
1009
01:13:34,958 --> 01:13:37,059
and her legs waving
1010
01:13:37,083 --> 01:13:39,750
and my anxious face
peering in between them.
1011
01:13:49,208 --> 01:13:52,101
Well, he just suddenly
turned up at the theatre.
1012
01:13:52,125 --> 01:13:58,309
He was a very strange-looking young
man with a rolled umbrella and a tie
1013
01:13:58,333 --> 01:14:00,643
and a suit and a briefcase.
1014
01:14:00,667 --> 01:14:01,917
I mean, it was funny.
1015
01:14:04,542 --> 01:14:07,042
He played Br'er Fox,
and that's how I met him.
1016
01:14:09,500 --> 01:14:11,101
To me, when he was on stage,
1017
01:14:11,125 --> 01:14:15,809
his brain always worked
marginally before his instincts,
1018
01:14:15,833 --> 01:14:19,583
so that he sort of thought
about it and then acted it.
1019
01:14:21,542 --> 01:14:23,351
It's a bit naughty to say this,
1020
01:14:23,375 --> 01:14:27,726
but he was the sort of actor
he wouldn't dream of employing,
1021
01:14:27,750 --> 01:14:29,125
if you know what I mean.
1022
01:14:35,625 --> 01:14:37,583
Curious journey people go on...
1023
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:52,875
Ken didn't make a film for nearly 12 years.
1024
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:01,684
Here was a first-class director
who had actually been virtually silent
1025
01:15:01,708 --> 01:15:03,542
in the cinema for a decade.
1026
01:15:04,708 --> 01:15:07,393
TRAILER: An American has been
murdered in Northern Ireland.
1027
01:15:07,417 --> 01:15:10,976
Police said the car failed to stop
at a roadblock outside Dungannon.
1028
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:14,768
And a high-ranking British inspector
has been assigned to the case.
1029
01:15:14,792 --> 01:15:18,226
When he made Hidden
Agenda, nobody would put it on.
1030
01:15:18,250 --> 01:15:20,542
Nobody would even give it a press show.
1031
01:15:27,583 --> 01:15:29,601
I think you lose confidence, you know,
1032
01:15:29,625 --> 01:15:32,559
if you go for a few years and
you don't make a film, you think,
1033
01:15:32,583 --> 01:15:35,958
"I'm not going to be able to do it again.
I'm going to forget the words to say."
1034
01:15:42,167 --> 01:15:43,726
It went to Cannes.
1035
01:15:43,750 --> 01:15:46,601
The right-wing press went for us.
1036
01:15:46,625 --> 01:15:49,601
There was a Tory MP who
denounced it before he'd seen it,
1037
01:15:49,625 --> 01:15:54,726
a familiar tale, where he said
it was the IRA entry at Cannes.
1038
01:15:54,750 --> 01:15:56,684
Hidden Agenda.
1039
01:15:56,708 --> 01:15:58,583
Every government has one.
1040
01:16:00,500 --> 01:16:02,851
The film was a success at Cannes,
1041
01:16:02,875 --> 01:16:04,809
despite that,
1042
01:16:04,833 --> 01:16:07,309
and he was known again,
1043
01:16:07,333 --> 01:16:09,583
and suddenly he was able to make films.
1044
01:16:18,167 --> 01:16:20,726
When he made Riff-Raff,
1045
01:16:20,750 --> 01:16:23,893
the National Film Theatre took it up,
1046
01:16:23,917 --> 01:16:26,643
and the critics all said, "Wonderful film."
1047
01:16:26,667 --> 01:16:29,559
And the bathroom here, which I
think you'll find very impressive.
1048
01:16:29,583 --> 01:16:31,184
SPLASHING
1049
01:16:31,208 --> 01:16:32,809
THEY GASP
1050
01:16:32,833 --> 01:16:34,851
THEY SHOUT IN OWN LANGUAGE
1051
01:16:34,875 --> 01:16:36,768
What are you doing here?
1052
01:16:36,792 --> 01:16:38,143
Who are you?
1053
01:16:38,167 --> 01:16:39,393
Who are you?
1054
01:16:39,417 --> 01:16:40,809
I'm checking the plumbing.
1055
01:16:40,833 --> 01:16:41,875
Get out of there.
1056
01:16:44,583 --> 01:16:46,542
Everything seems to be working.
1057
01:16:59,417 --> 01:17:02,768
Once the political climate
had changed a little,
1058
01:17:02,792 --> 01:17:08,434
and once it became possible to
raise a bit of money from Channel 4,
1059
01:17:08,458 --> 01:17:12,042
or even cobble together a bit of
distribution money around Europe...
1060
01:17:13,333 --> 01:17:14,417
...he just...
1061
01:17:15,583 --> 01:17:17,893
...took off where he'd left off
1062
01:17:17,917 --> 01:17:19,417
with an opportunity.
1063
01:17:22,917 --> 01:17:27,434
He found a group of people
that shared his outlook
1064
01:17:27,458 --> 01:17:29,583
and wanted to make films with him.
1065
01:17:31,958 --> 01:17:36,476
I certainly remember him
carrying himself much freer,
1066
01:17:36,500 --> 01:17:38,167
just being happier.
1067
01:17:43,125 --> 01:17:46,375
He knows that he's found...
1068
01:17:48,208 --> 01:17:50,542
...what he's looking for when he finds it.
1069
01:17:54,917 --> 01:17:56,393
I got a phone call off him.
1070
01:17:56,417 --> 01:17:58,893
"Rick," he said, "I'm
doing this movie," he said,
1071
01:17:58,917 --> 01:18:01,726
"and it's about more
or less a battered wife.
1072
01:18:01,750 --> 01:18:04,268
"She's got to have had a
couple of kids to this fella,
1073
01:18:04,292 --> 01:18:07,476
"a couple of kids to that fella,
been knocked about and battered."
1074
01:18:07,500 --> 01:18:10,768
He said, "But I can't find what
I want, can you help me out?"
1075
01:18:10,792 --> 01:18:12,893
And I said, "How many do you want?"
1076
01:18:12,917 --> 01:18:15,167
And he went, "No, I'm
serious." I said, "So am I."
1077
01:18:16,292 --> 01:18:18,125
He picked a girl called Crissy Rock.
1078
01:18:19,292 --> 01:18:24,393
♪ Come along and share
the good times while we can
1079
01:18:24,417 --> 01:18:27,434
♪ I beg your pardon
1080
01:18:27,458 --> 01:18:28,601
♪ I never promised... ♪
1081
01:18:28,625 --> 01:18:31,268
I said, "Look, if I'm not what you want
1082
01:18:31,292 --> 01:18:32,934
"or I think you made a mistake,
1083
01:18:32,958 --> 01:18:35,851
"you can sack me and tell
me to go and I'll understand,
1084
01:18:35,875 --> 01:18:37,309
"cos I'm not really an actress."
1085
01:18:37,333 --> 01:18:39,601
Woooooo!
1086
01:18:39,625 --> 01:18:41,833
And he goes, "No, but I trust you.
1087
01:18:43,167 --> 01:18:44,583
"I know you can do this."
1088
01:18:54,667 --> 01:18:57,476
As a director, the most
precious thing you've got
1089
01:18:57,500 --> 01:18:59,000
is the actor's instinct.
1090
01:19:00,250 --> 01:19:04,143
If you've acted a bit yourself,
you know, however badly,
1091
01:19:04,167 --> 01:19:07,143
you know how open actors can
be and how vulnerable they can be,
1092
01:19:07,167 --> 01:19:10,167
and how easily they
can be blown off-course.
1093
01:19:14,125 --> 01:19:17,417
He's got that gift to go inside.
1094
01:19:18,833 --> 01:19:21,976
He talks to you and he says,
1095
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:25,434
"If this is happening, how
would you handle that?"
1096
01:19:25,458 --> 01:19:27,768
I'm Kevin McNally from Social Services.
1097
01:19:27,792 --> 01:19:30,226
- This is my colleague...
- Sarah Thompson.
1098
01:19:30,250 --> 01:19:34,684
He actually makes you
believe that you're that person.
1099
01:19:34,708 --> 01:19:40,226
We came to a decision last week
where we will have to take the baby
1100
01:19:40,250 --> 01:19:42,976
- to a place of safety...
- What's safer than here?
1101
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,893
The baby is safe, and you
have no right, and you have...
1102
01:19:45,917 --> 01:19:48,226
We can go with the baby
to the court if we want.
1103
01:19:48,250 --> 01:19:49,601
But you don't need to take, OK?
1104
01:19:49,625 --> 01:19:52,976
- It is something that...
- Just go to your office!
1105
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:55,309
- Jorge, it's illegal...
- Just leave us!
1106
01:19:55,333 --> 01:19:59,184
The anguish of losing
your children when in fact
1107
01:19:59,208 --> 01:20:01,184
you are capable of looking after them...
1108
01:20:01,208 --> 01:20:03,417
I mean, that was the point of the story.
1109
01:20:06,333 --> 01:20:08,583
It's a kind of well of experience.
1110
01:20:10,042 --> 01:20:13,226
People have said, "Well, this isn't
acting, she's just being herself."
1111
01:20:13,250 --> 01:20:17,684
But, actually, the ability to
tap into your own emotions
1112
01:20:17,708 --> 01:20:22,250
and express them in a fictional
scene is absolutely acting.
1113
01:20:27,708 --> 01:20:29,167
You don't realise he's doing it.
1114
01:20:30,833 --> 01:20:34,684
So you're just raw, he just
picks a raw piece of silk up,
1115
01:20:34,708 --> 01:20:36,917
and he makes it into a beautiful purse.
1116
01:20:39,917 --> 01:20:41,893
Neil. Neil.
1117
01:20:41,917 --> 01:20:42,976
You OK?
1118
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:44,434
Right.
1119
01:20:44,458 --> 01:20:47,226
Right, one word before we start.
1120
01:20:47,250 --> 01:20:49,726
We hear it, we hear it.
1121
01:20:49,750 --> 01:20:54,393
And if you do it really
realistically, it sounds right.
1122
01:20:54,417 --> 01:20:56,809
If you don't do it
realistically, it sounds wrong.
1123
01:20:56,833 --> 01:20:58,809
Hayley, Hayley.
1124
01:20:58,833 --> 01:21:01,184
Do you mind just being there?
1125
01:21:01,208 --> 01:21:03,809
I'm working from somewhere
I've never worked before,
1126
01:21:03,833 --> 01:21:05,518
which is not having seen a script.
1127
01:21:05,542 --> 01:21:08,351
It's kind of a dream, you
know, shooting chronologically,
1128
01:21:08,375 --> 01:21:10,393
not knowing what happens.
1129
01:21:10,417 --> 01:21:13,351
It's what you want, because it
means you're going to be able to do it
1130
01:21:13,375 --> 01:21:16,476
then and there, and it's just
about you and who you're with.
1131
01:21:16,500 --> 01:21:18,434
- Would you like to go and see Agnes?
- Agnes?
1132
01:21:18,458 --> 01:21:21,018
When I went to the food bank,
and we saw the extras outside,
1133
01:21:21,042 --> 01:21:22,625
I found it really overwhelming.
1134
01:21:23,667 --> 01:21:27,143
The reason it's so raw is because
you're stepping into people's lives,
1135
01:21:27,167 --> 01:21:29,059
and these people that are using this place,
1136
01:21:29,083 --> 01:21:32,018
they're in this position and
they're around you doing it with you.
1137
01:21:32,042 --> 01:21:34,643
It'll be from there round
to the fruit and veg.
1138
01:21:34,667 --> 01:21:38,643
It's the purest environment
you could ever have.
1139
01:21:38,667 --> 01:21:40,893
That's what all this very,
1140
01:21:40,917 --> 01:21:47,434
very precise preparation and
precise casting is all to achieve,
1141
01:21:47,458 --> 01:21:48,667
this truth, I guess.
1142
01:21:53,167 --> 01:21:56,559
It fundamentally changed
how I approach acting,
1143
01:21:56,583 --> 01:21:58,601
and it's never been the same since.
1144
01:21:58,625 --> 01:22:00,208
171, take 3...
1145
01:22:02,250 --> 01:22:05,375
You know, there's no marks,
there's no action, there's no cut.
1146
01:22:07,417 --> 01:22:10,559
You don't have the script as
your document, you're just...
1147
01:22:10,583 --> 01:22:15,976
You're reacting as it
happens, you know, on film.
1148
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:20,809
So, it becomes all
emotion and not intellect.
1149
01:22:20,833 --> 01:22:22,226
It's all right, it's all right.
1150
01:22:22,250 --> 01:22:23,809
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
1151
01:22:23,833 --> 01:22:25,934
It's OK, it's OK.
1152
01:22:25,958 --> 01:22:29,018
It was like going on this
adventure with all these people
1153
01:22:29,042 --> 01:22:31,125
who you became very, very close to.
1154
01:22:38,125 --> 01:22:42,434
We had gone on this journey,
1155
01:22:42,458 --> 01:22:48,351
which felt, to us, as close as
it could possibly be to reality.
1156
01:22:48,375 --> 01:22:51,958
Oh, Jesus Christ. I can't
take much more of this.
1157
01:22:56,625 --> 01:23:00,768
So by the end, certainly for me,
it didn't feel like I was performing,
1158
01:23:00,792 --> 01:23:04,268
I was just kind of swept up
in this world that we'd created,
1159
01:23:04,292 --> 01:23:08,143
that we were invested in, that
felt completely authentic and real
1160
01:23:08,167 --> 01:23:11,625
and truthful, and that was
because Ken set it up that way.
1161
01:23:22,208 --> 01:23:25,059
The reason to do films
like the Spanish Civil War
1162
01:23:25,083 --> 01:23:29,375
or the Irish Civil War -
they're high points in our story.
1163
01:23:30,875 --> 01:23:35,101
They're critical moments where
if things had gone differently,
1164
01:23:35,125 --> 01:23:39,268
we would have a different world now.
1165
01:23:39,292 --> 01:23:43,101
We try to gather people who,
if the situation were to recur,
1166
01:23:43,125 --> 01:23:44,542
might do that again.
1167
01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:48,458
It was a People's Army, to fight fascism.
1168
01:23:49,917 --> 01:23:52,851
So, it was a very... It was a very...
1169
01:23:52,875 --> 01:23:56,268
happy bunch of brothers and sisters.
1170
01:23:56,292 --> 01:23:58,518
- How's your arm?
- It's much better now,
1171
01:23:58,542 --> 01:24:01,000
I had the stitches taken out two days ago.
1172
01:24:02,167 --> 01:24:05,476
- What are you doing here?
- Bernard gave me seven days' leave.
1173
01:24:05,500 --> 01:24:08,101
And then it reached the point where Blanca,
1174
01:24:08,125 --> 01:24:12,559
the girl who has really
embodied the revolutionary spirit -
1175
01:24:12,583 --> 01:24:14,018
she's shot.
1176
01:24:14,042 --> 01:24:17,643
Of course, they didn't know this.
1177
01:24:17,667 --> 01:24:20,601
I said, "Can I have a word?" And
she said, "What's up?" and I said,
1178
01:24:20,625 --> 01:24:24,333
"Look, I'm really sorry,
but you get shot here."
1179
01:24:26,375 --> 01:24:29,000
And she said, "But I don't want to die."
1180
01:24:31,708 --> 01:24:33,917
And we both got quite upset, really.
1181
01:24:41,875 --> 01:24:45,184
Of course, no-one knew
about it, and they were just...
1182
01:24:45,208 --> 01:24:47,917
Couldn't believe it,
really, that she'd gone.
1183
01:25:02,417 --> 01:25:04,518
And the Palme d'Or goes to...
1184
01:25:04,542 --> 01:25:06,333
Ken Loach.
1185
01:25:14,333 --> 01:25:18,934
What people in England don't
realise is how much he is adored,
1186
01:25:18,958 --> 01:25:21,708
not just in France, but all over Europe.
1187
01:25:23,292 --> 01:25:28,101
Here is someone over 70 who still believes,
1188
01:25:28,125 --> 01:25:29,750
and they find that very moving.
1189
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:42,559
We didn't expect the film to
win the Palme d'Or, but then,
1190
01:25:42,583 --> 01:25:48,434
what was remarkable was this, just,
outburst of fury by Tory politicians
1191
01:25:48,458 --> 01:25:49,667
and right-wingers.
1192
01:25:53,500 --> 01:25:55,809
One of the most bizarre was a guy
1193
01:25:55,833 --> 01:25:58,559
who wrote for the Telegraph, I believe,
1194
01:25:58,583 --> 01:26:00,208
and he said...
1195
01:26:01,250 --> 01:26:05,143
...that he hadn't seen the film
and he didn't want to see the film,
1196
01:26:05,167 --> 01:26:08,434
because he didn't need to read Mein Kampf
1197
01:26:08,458 --> 01:26:11,000
to know what a louse Hitler was.
1198
01:26:17,750 --> 01:26:20,976
We don't set out to provoke.
1199
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:24,976
The purpose of it is to try and
understand how power operates,
1200
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:27,625
who has control of a narrative.
1201
01:26:28,750 --> 01:26:30,458
The choices that a character makes...
1202
01:26:31,917 --> 01:26:35,000
...are totally affected by
the society in which they live.
1203
01:26:36,167 --> 01:26:38,333
Like Robbie in Angels' Share...
1204
01:26:40,125 --> 01:26:43,226
You know, he's a kid
who's just become a dad,
1205
01:26:43,250 --> 01:26:47,059
and he's totally caught by
his history, by his family,
1206
01:26:47,083 --> 01:26:50,518
but he's absolutely
determined to just build a future
1207
01:26:50,542 --> 01:26:52,250
for this baby in his arms.
1208
01:26:55,042 --> 01:26:58,476
Or this kid, trying to buy a caravan,
1209
01:26:58,500 --> 01:27:01,393
buying the drugs because there's
no other way to earn some money
1210
01:27:01,417 --> 01:27:04,292
so that he could rescue
his mother and be with her.
1211
01:27:11,167 --> 01:27:14,018
Even Looking For Eric, I mean,
1212
01:27:14,042 --> 01:27:17,976
right behind that comedy on the
surface is a disintegrating family.
1213
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:21,125
You know, so there is kind
of tragedy in the laughter.
1214
01:27:22,417 --> 01:27:24,726
Je suis...
1215
01:27:24,750 --> 01:27:26,684
Eric Cantona.
1216
01:27:26,708 --> 01:27:28,208
Fucking hell, it is you!
1217
01:27:29,750 --> 01:27:32,018
What the fuck, man?!
1218
01:27:32,042 --> 01:27:34,393
Wait till the fucking lads hear about this!
1219
01:27:34,417 --> 01:27:40,268
You just hope that resonates
without being explicit, you know.
1220
01:27:40,292 --> 01:27:43,542
You see the delicate surface
of those characters' lives.
1221
01:27:46,958 --> 01:27:50,101
But the great political
questions are a way down there,
1222
01:27:50,125 --> 01:27:52,000
like the bottom of the iceberg.
1223
01:28:10,750 --> 01:28:13,292
How could Ken be a
political danger to anybody?
1224
01:28:15,208 --> 01:28:16,292
He loves cricket.
1225
01:28:18,250 --> 01:28:21,018
He would really be at
home in the 18th century,
1226
01:28:21,042 --> 01:28:23,292
cos he loves the
architecture and the furniture.
1227
01:28:27,333 --> 01:28:30,976
I got some e-mails from
him last night, and I thought,
1228
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:34,351
"God, he's on e-mail." I
mean, "He's discovered e-mail."
1229
01:28:34,375 --> 01:28:36,643
What's happened?
1230
01:28:36,667 --> 01:28:38,958
He even disliked the phone.
1231
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:43,625
He's a very conservative...
1232
01:28:44,708 --> 01:28:46,417
...quiet gentleman.
1233
01:28:49,417 --> 01:28:51,000
The point is that Ken...
1234
01:28:52,208 --> 01:28:54,500
...will not be deterred.
1235
01:29:00,375 --> 01:29:04,667
I'm not a shirker, a
scrounger, a beggar nor a thief.
1236
01:29:06,333 --> 01:29:09,958
I'm not a national insurance
number or blip on a screen.
1237
01:29:11,375 --> 01:29:15,250
I paid my dues, never a
penny short, and proud to do so.
1238
01:29:17,083 --> 01:29:20,393
I don't tug the forelock, but
look my neighbour in the eye
1239
01:29:20,417 --> 01:29:22,250
and help him if I can.
1240
01:29:29,250 --> 01:29:32,792
Here he is now, coming up
to 50 years of film-making...
1241
01:29:35,458 --> 01:29:41,393
...and the politics comes first,
not in a party superficial manner,
1242
01:29:41,417 --> 01:29:44,393
but you can only have the energy to do that
1243
01:29:44,417 --> 01:29:46,643
if there's something burning inside you.
1244
01:29:46,667 --> 01:29:51,476
It's like he's got this big V8
engine in this skinny little body,
1245
01:29:51,500 --> 01:29:53,250
and that just drives him on.
1246
01:29:55,167 --> 01:29:57,684
And I think, even if he
probably wanted to stop,
1247
01:29:57,708 --> 01:29:59,542
I'm not sure he could, really.
1248
01:30:03,583 --> 01:30:07,518
He is speaking for the
people who are not catered to,
1249
01:30:07,542 --> 01:30:09,958
what they call the voiceless.
1250
01:30:11,083 --> 01:30:14,601
People walk out of theatres
and say, "Yeah, I really...
1251
01:30:14,625 --> 01:30:17,292
"That was just like watching
the people down the road."
1252
01:30:24,208 --> 01:30:28,059
Ken wanted people to
recognise, from the inside,
1253
01:30:28,083 --> 01:30:31,726
their own lives reflected back to them,
1254
01:30:31,750 --> 01:30:34,250
and that was politics.
1255
01:30:39,042 --> 01:30:41,768
Given the tides of political conflict,
1256
01:30:41,792 --> 01:30:45,393
trying to make little films in
the middle of that is like a cork
1257
01:30:45,417 --> 01:30:48,167
bobbing on the waves
It doesn't stop the tide.
1258
01:30:49,375 --> 01:30:52,726
You are a small voice amongst many,
1259
01:30:52,750 --> 01:30:54,726
many much louder voices.
1260
01:30:54,750 --> 01:30:56,375
Is it worth doing? I don't know.
1261
01:30:57,583 --> 01:31:00,268
It's like Marlon Brando, you
know, in Rebel Without A Cause.
1262
01:31:00,292 --> 01:31:02,684
They say, you know, "What
are you rebelling against?"
1263
01:31:02,708 --> 01:31:05,268
He said, "What have you
got?" And whatever institution,
1264
01:31:05,292 --> 01:31:08,143
whatever government,
whoever's there, Ken would...
1265
01:31:08,167 --> 01:31:10,250
It wouldn't be good enough for Ken.
1266
01:31:11,708 --> 01:31:12,833
Bastards.
97951
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