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This programme contains very strong language.
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All too often, every female rock musician
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has had to answer a predictable question -
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"What's it like being a girl in a band?"
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Rock and roll is supposed to be
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a place where you can be what you want to be,
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but history suggests that rock bands
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are not equal-opportunities employers.
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For many, the sight of a girl shredding a guitar
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or laying into the drums is still a bit of a novelty.
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Since the birth of the rock-and-roll band,
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boys have spent hours tinkering on their Les Pauls
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while girls are merely the object of the songs,
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or so the story goes.
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As soon as women stepped across the line and formed their own bands,
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they were given labels -
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"The rock chick".
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"The girl band".
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One half of the rock-and-roll couple.
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And sometimes just "the other one".
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I wanted to meet the women who crossed the line, formed bands
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and tried to go their own way.
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If you want to do something, just do it. Don't talk about it.
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And don't criticise other women.
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If... If they want to go out, you know,
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and swing on a wrecking ball naked, why not?
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They related to the world on their own terms.
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We don't want to stand how men stand, with our legs wide open,
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our guitar right down there
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like we've got great big, heavy bollocks hanging down!
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They followed the magnetic pull of the rock-and-roll lifestyle.
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"You're going to meet the biggest rock stars.
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"You're going to play the biggest venues
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"and tour the world!"
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I was like, "Wow! I've got to tell my mom!"
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# A lot of people telling me what to do... #
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There is the predictable.
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It always used to be, "Get your tits out!" basically.
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A photographer was going, "If you open your legs a bit
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"and kind of le..." And I was like...
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- "Fanny! Fanny! Fanny!"
- SHE LAUGHS
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Imagine our surprise! I was like, "Oh, they love us!"
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These are the untold stories from half a century on rock's front line.
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I want to discover,
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has it always been different for the girl in a band?
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MUSIC: Rebel Girl by Bikini Girl
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# ..Rebel girl
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# Rebel girl, you are the queen of my world... #
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Before the modern concept of the rock-and-roll band
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took shape in the late 1950s,
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you could try and join a jazz band,
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but playing in smoky LA clubs was considered no place for a lady.
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I'm here to meet someone who muscled in on that world
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and became an exception to the rule.
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This is the story of the invisible woman.
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The girl who ended up the number one called player in the session band
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that played on some of the biggest records of the 20th century.
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Was it unusual for a girl to be playing guitar?
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Well, you know what? I didn't think of it.
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I started to hear this bebop jazz on the radio
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and I said, "That's what I want to play."
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JAZZY GUITAR SOLO
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The teenage Carol cut her teeth as a jazz guitarist
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in clubs around Los Angeles, and being the only girl in the band
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meant she often had to stand her ground.
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There's always one guy in every band that's going to test you.
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You have to get the whole band to laugh at THEM, you know,
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in other words, repeat back to them what they say, you know,
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like this one guy that said,
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"Oh, you're..." I mean...
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"You're a dumb cunt, Carol."
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I said, "Well, you're a dumb prick, too."
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Undeterred by the catcalling,
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Carol carried on playing around LA's jazz clubs
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until she caught the ear of record producer Bumps Blackwell,
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who asked her to play guitar on Summertime
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for the legendary Sam Cooke.
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# Summertime
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# And the living is easy... #
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MUSIC: La Bamba by Richie Valens
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It wasn't long before Richie Valens came calling.
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# Para bailar La Bamba... #
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SHE PLAYS ALONG TO LA BAMBA
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And as the jazz clubs around LA began to close,
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Carol begin making money from the new music of the time, rock and roll,
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playing guitar for artists like Duane Eddy and Chris Montez.
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# Hey baby, won't you take a chance?
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# Say that you'll let me have this dance
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# Well, let's dance... #
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"One dollar, two dollar, three dollar... I love rock and roll!"
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SHE LAUGHS
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"Five dollar, six dollar... Jazz, what's that?"
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# ..Any old dance that you wanna do
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# But let's dance... #
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The spirit of it was
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how to create a hit record with a simple little line.
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See, that was the challenge.
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And was that a challenge that was given to you from the start?
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Oh, yeah, yeah,
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because if you didn't create a hit line,
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you wouldn't... You probably wouldn't work next year.
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# She's a rebel and you'll never be any good... #
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Carol was now in demand as a bass player
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and next up, she entered the Wall Of Sound, working on songs
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with Phil Spector and some of his main draws,
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like The Righteous Brothers.
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Tell me about meeting and working with Phil Spector.
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We all thought he was kind of weird...
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And he would kid with the musicians.
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Pretty soon he started kidding pretty hard
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and he'd pick on them a little bit.
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- Did he ever pick on you?
- He did one time.
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I told him to F off or something like that.
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# You've lost that lovin' feeling, now it's gone... #
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Do you ever come across surprise from people being brought in
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just to do vocals on the pop records that you were a female player?
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Frank Sinatra, he was kind of, like, standoffish.
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He was like... "Oh, I've got a woman on today."
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You know, but they were all cool.
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# And then I go and spoil it all
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# By saying something stupid like "I love you..."
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GOOD VIBRATIONS BASS LINE
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After proving herself to the Rat Pack,
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Carol helped a certain Beach Boy shape his musical vision.
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# I'm picking up good vibrations
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# She's giving me excitations... #
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I got along with Brian very well. I was like an older sister to him.
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He brought in his parts.
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They weren't written very well, you know,
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so you knew that he was not schooled in music.
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Sharps and flats on the wrong side of the note,
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stems on the wrong side of the note, you know...
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Sometimes you had to recopy the bass parts.
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BASS TO WICHITA LINEMAN
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Carol Kaye played on over 10,000 sessions
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and laid down some of the Sixties' most famous basslines,
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from Glen Campbell's Wichita Lineman
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to Simon and Garfunkel's Homeward Bound.
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Despite her huge success, she was always a lone pioneer who constantly
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had to defend her unique position in the session business.
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In 1964, a band of Liverpudlian teenagers struck out
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to find fame amid the exotic delights of Hamburg's Reeperbahn.
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The kids couldn't get enough of the Fab Four.
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# It tastes real good but it's so hard
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# Peanut, peanut butter... #
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Val, Mary, Sylvia and Pam were The Liverbirds.
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They were part of the Merseybeat scene.
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It wasn't only Cilla who found success working in the Cavern Club.
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Alongside the Beatles, The Liverbirds were chosen to play
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at Hamburg's famous Star Club.
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It's there that I met up with them to talk about
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the reaction they got when they formed
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their all-girl rock-and-roll band in the early 1960s.
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- This is all the groups that played here?
- Yeah.
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- Where are you?
- We're right next to The Beatles!
- Ah, there you are!
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- Wow!
- Yeah.
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SCREAMING DROWNS MUSIC
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Tell me what made the Hamburg scene
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so different from the Liverpool scene.
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In them days, it was the dream of every group
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to come and play in Hamburg.
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If you went back to Liverpool or wherever you came from
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and you had the Star Club sticker on your guitar case,
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it meant that you had achieved something.
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The Star Club may have been the rock-and-roll Mecca
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to all up-and-coming bands,
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but being nestled in Hamburg's infamous Reeperbahn
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made for an eye-opening experience for these good Catholic girls.
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- When you arrived here in Hamburg, you were 18 and 17.
- Yeah.
- Mmm.
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What did you make of the Reeperbahn?
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- Shock.
- THEY LAUGH
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And the taxi dropped us off at the side street and all I saw,
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cos all I was interested in in those days was church...
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"Oh, God, there's a big church!" And then we went round
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the corner and saw all the strip clubs. We couldn't believe it!
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# If you've found someone who loves you more
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# Give you love you've never had before... #
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It was such an unusual group. I mean, you dressed a little bit like boys.
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How did you decide what you were going to look like?
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We only had males that could influence us.
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We wanted to look like them, as well.
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How did people react to a group with all girls on guitars?
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We were only rehearsing at the time, and we went into the dressing room,
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there's John Lennon and Paul McCartney getting changed.
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And John Lennon says, "What's this? Girls with guitars?
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"I bet you that never works out."
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Proving Lennon wrong, The Liverbirds found success in Germany.
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In fact, they never returned to England
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and played on until 1967 when they were still
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one of the club's main draws.
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- Thank you!
- CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
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# And the red queen's off with her head... #
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So, was it now becoming acceptable for girls to start rock bands?
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Psychedelia blossomed across America, producing dazzling frontwomen
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like Grace Slick of Jefferson Airplane, and Janis Joplin.
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# Oh, whoa-oh... #
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If you were a girl in the late 1960s and you wanted to pick up a guitar,
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there was pretty much only one frame of reference.
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You had to play like a man.
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The first all-girl rock band to be given a major label record deal
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in the US were called Fanny.
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When we got to California in 1961,
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it was all about acoustic guitars.
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In the entire world, we knew of no other young women
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or girls who were playing electric.
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I mean, we were very confident cos we knew we could play.
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That really is what separated us maybe from a lot of people
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who wanted to do it, even boys!
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We were a lot better than a lot of boys that we ran into.
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We've played the Fillmore East. We've played the Fillmore West.
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We've played with The Kinks, with Procol Harum and we...
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We've just done so much. We were in the circle.
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And I think they were all pretty thrilled to have us come in,
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you know, these "chicks" who could play.
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# I've got too much time on my hands
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# I've gotta find me a superman... #
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And when a band called Fanny started writing songs,
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their lyrics tapped into the sexually liberated spirit of the age.
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# Cos I'm a hot lovin'
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# Good lovin'
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# Sweet lovin' woman and I know how to love... #
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It was just a complete lifestyle change that was moving with society,
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with civil rights, with feminism,
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that was coming but we didn't know it, you know?
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We were with the times and it was just this little sliver
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that opened up and "boom", we just went right through.
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Back to Fanny, who have been conquering
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male chauvinist hearts everywhere.
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# Special care
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# Has been taken to make you aware... #
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Was there amusement in the UK press at the name Fanny when you came out?
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You know, I don't even remember who broke it to us,
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- what Fanny means...
- SHE LAUGHS
- ..in the UK,
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but it just seemed really funny to us.
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- "Fanny! Fanny! Fanny!"
- SHE LAUGHS
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Imagine our surprise!
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- I was like, "Oh, they love us!"
- SHE LAUGHS
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SHE PLAYS SPECIAL CARE
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40 years later, and June's now running a school of rock for girls,
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using her experiences to show the next generation
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what to expect from the business.
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So, tell us about this IMA rock camp you set up for girls.
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What I'm doing is I'm giving back cos I feel like I was really lucky,
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even though when I left Fanny, people didn't understand.
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I needed to find something else...
246
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,280
- They didn't understand why you were leaving?
- Yeah. I barely understood.
247
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,320
My body just broke down cos I was so tired but I didn't want to leave,
248
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,320
but my body just said, "Hey, you're done."
249
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,760
So, when I talk about the music biz to the girls,
250
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,560
I'm not telling them, "You should go out and become a star."
251
00:12:56,560 --> 00:13:00,200
What I tell them is, "It's a lot harder to be a star than you think."
252
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,640
MUSIC: Special Care by Fanny
253
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,760
JUNE PLAYS LAST NOTE OF SONG
254
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,680
- Take that!
- SHE LAUGHS
255
00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:24,240
Back in Britain, Elkie Brooks seemed to be the perfect singer
256
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,280
on the '60s pop circuit.
257
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:31,520
# These lonely nights are getting so hard to bear... #
258
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,240
But for some reason, the decade never quite sat right with her.
259
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,480
She transformed herself into a smouldering blues rock siren...
260
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,440
MUSIC: Proud To Be A Honky Woman by Vinegar Joe
261
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:50,640
..and found her musical home
262
00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,240
alongside Robert Palmer in the band Vinegar Joe.
263
00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:01,520
# I'm sorry if I wear mascara and I paint my toenails red... #
264
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,240
She thought they would last forever
265
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,120
but it wasn't so easy with two lead singers pulling on the reins.
266
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,720
# But I was raised in a city
267
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,120
# On the wrong side of the tracks... #
268
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,520
There was quite a transformation from '60s Elkie to the amazing rock chick.
269
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,640
I just loved it. It just seemed very natural for me.
270
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,400
It just progressed in Vinegar Joe
271
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,680
to more of a raunchy look.
272
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,240
Did you feel that you were fitting quite naturally
273
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,160
- into that more sexy image?
- Yeah, I suppose it was quite...
274
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,240
You know, a little bit of rebellion in me. I've always had that.
275
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,280
# Proud to be a honky woman, yeah... #
276
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,240
It was quite unusual to have a male and female
277
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,760
singing in tandem like that, vying off each other.
278
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,920
I hated being on my own so much in the '60s.
279
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,320
And you were happier in the band dynamic, is that right?
280
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,440
Oh, I loved it. I loved it.
281
00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,320
# With your bizarre repertoire
282
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,640
# You perform on your Japanese guitar... #
283
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,000
You had a great chemistry with Robert on stage.
284
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,280
I thought he was marvellous. A wonderful, wonderful singer.
285
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:13,920
And incredible looking!
286
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,600
He was a wonderful looking man.
287
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,600
I think I sang with him
288
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,160
rather than he sang with me.
289
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,280
# Oh, no
290
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,680
# With your bizarre
291
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,640
# Repertoire... #
292
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,360
So, Melody Maker made you the "Face of 1973".
293
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,680
What was the reaction to that?
294
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,520
"Face of '73", yeah.
295
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,920
No, Robert wasn't very happy about that
296
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:43,080
because we, in actual fact, as I found out later,
297
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,880
were only supposed to be Robert Palmer's backing band.
298
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,120
But of course, the press picked up on me
299
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,120
and that wasn't the way it was supposed to go.
300
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,240
# Oh, lady of the rain... #
301
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,720
'He was just bitter about it.'
302
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,400
Because, obviously, he was jealous that they hadn't picked up on him.
303
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,280
# It's some kind of harmony
304
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,040
# The shadows you see... #
305
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,280
How did the band come to an end?
306
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,440
Well, quite simply,
307
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,400
Robert said that he was leaving the band.
308
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,400
And Vinegar Joe was no more.
309
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:27,160
We did our last gig, I think, in March 1974.
310
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,360
How did you feel when it finished?
311
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,120
Devastated, really.
312
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,040
Didn't really know what to do.
313
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,000
For months, I would sit
314
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,640
and put all the old press cuttings together in a scrapbook.
315
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,680
You know, I was very much still living in the past.
316
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,520
it was difficult for me to pick myself up and do something else.
317
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,000
# Pearl's a singer
318
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,480
# She stands up
319
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,760
# When she plays the piano... #
320
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,000
Within three years,
321
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,320
Elkie found she was better standing on her own two feet.
322
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,400
How do you feel about Vinegar Joe now?
323
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,880
I really have put it down to experience.
324
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,680
I wouldn't have missed it for the world.
325
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,560
It's made me the person I am today.
326
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,440
# Sha-sha-oo-ooh
327
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,640
# Sha-sha-oo-ooh
328
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,120
# Sha-sha-oo-ooh
329
00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:19,880
# Sha-sha-oo-ooh... #
330
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,080
# And your boyfriend's name is Eagle
331
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,920
# And he lives up in the sky... #
332
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,440
Things were changing.
333
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,120
Suddenly everyone wanted to see women in bands.
334
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:32,840
Record executive Mickie Most
335
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,360
had masterminded Suzi Quatro's career
336
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,440
and Suzi became a big influence on The Runaways.
337
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,360
# So make a stand for your man, honey
338
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:44,920
# Try to can the can... #
339
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,480
I met up with guitarist Lita Ford.
340
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,240
# Can't stay at home
341
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,360
# Can't stay in school
342
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:53,080
# Old folks say... #
343
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:54,880
Lita looks back on her time in the band
344
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,720
and remembers the call she got from LA impresario Kim Fowley,
345
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,040
luring her with the promise of rock and roll
346
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,600
when she was just a teenager.
347
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,160
# Hello, Daddy
348
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:05,600
# Hello, Mom
349
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,680
# I'm your ch-ch-ch... #
350
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,560
# Cherry bomb!
351
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,120
# Hello, world
352
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,160
# I'm your wild girl
353
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,280
# Ch-ch-ch-ch
354
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:16,960
# Cherry bomb! #
355
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,760
Kim Fowley gave me the rap of a lifetime.
356
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,960
"You're going to meet the biggest rock stars.
357
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:28,000
"You're going to play the biggest venues and tour the world."
358
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,240
And I was like, "Wow! I gotta tell my mom!"
359
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,360
# Ch-ch-ch-ch
360
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,240
# Cherry bomb! #
361
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,840
What did Kim teach you about being in a band?
362
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,120
He would teach as how to talk, how to sit, how to stand.
363
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:45,120
"Don't wear that sweater.
364
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:47,840
"Wear something in black that's low-cut."
365
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,440
He would tell us,
366
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,480
"Don't wear that. Put on some high heels."
367
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,280
"Like, Kim, she's 15 years old,
368
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,920
"why would you want her to wear high heels?"
369
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,680
"Because, she's sexy.
370
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,720
"Because she's jailbait.
371
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,320
"And don't talk to me that way!
372
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,000
"I'm the boss here, you don't tell me what to do."
373
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,200
When you were in the studio with Kim
374
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,640
and he would call you "dog meat" or "dog shit",
375
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,200
- did that have any effect on your confidence?
- Not really.
376
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,320
To say the word, "Hey, you piece of shit," it was like...
377
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:21,920
"Yes, Kim(!)"
378
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,680
You know, I took it more with a grain of salt.
379
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,960
Despite Fowley's verbal abuse,
380
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,320
the band got to experience mass adulation from their teenage fans,
381
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,480
as they toured Japan.
382
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:40,880
When we got off the plane,
383
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,280
there were thousands of people in the airport.
384
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,720
They had to hold a human barricade back
385
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,320
so the girls could walk between.
386
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,360
# Let me tell you what we've been doing... #
387
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:56,680
After the huge success in Japan,
388
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,840
it seemed Fowley's rap about being the biggest band in the world
389
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,920
might have paid off, until things started to go wrong.
390
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,560
When did you first realise that the group might not last?
391
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,240
Well, Cherie quit awfully fast.
392
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,120
She was dating the assistant manager, Scott,
393
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:17,480
and he ended up getting her pregnant at 16, which...
394
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,280
..you know, being a rock band,
395
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,200
it's not like you're home with Mom and Dad.
396
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,560
And we didn't want to break up the band.
397
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,560
Our only option was for Joan to sing.
398
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,720
# Used to being a troublemaker
399
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,760
# Hated homework, was a sweet heartbreaker... #
400
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,200
You had the sex, drugs and rock-and-roll lifestyle
401
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:42,880
when you were so young.
402
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,040
What would you change if you could go back?
403
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,200
There was a couple of us...
404
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,960
..that were violated...sexually.
405
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,760
That, I would change.
406
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,400
Had I have known and had I have seen it coming...
407
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,120
..I would have definitely done something to prevent that.
408
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:12,600
I wasn't raped and I didn't know Jackie was.
409
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,760
I hate that she was.
410
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:19,040
I never knew until now.
411
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,840
Those are the things that, actually...
412
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:24,280
..make me sick.
413
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,160
And that shouldn't have happened. Motherfuckers.
414
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,360
# School days
415
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,480
# I'm starting to slip I'm losing my mind... #
416
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,160
..kiss
417
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,880
Oscar Wilde
418
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,800
Jah lives
419
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,080
Mr Thorpe
420
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,600
The time is now, the time is now...
421
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:48,880
But not every girl in rock
422
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,440
was suffering at the hands of a manipulative male manager.
423
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,760
In 1975, an androgynous, liberated rock star
424
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,760
appeared out of nowhere.
425
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,760
# Surround by horses, horses, horses, horses... #
426
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,600
Patti Smith changed things forever for girls in rock bands.
427
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,880
Whether you had grown up in CBGB's,
428
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,040
or Ferryhill Working Men's Club.
429
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:21,680
In 1976, there wasn't any punk in the Durham pit town
430
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,000
where the teenage Pauline Murray lived.
431
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,960
So, she formed her own band, Penetration,
432
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,200
and brought punk to Ferryhill.
433
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:33,600
# Don't dictate
434
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,080
# Don't dictate
435
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,040
# Don't dictate, dictate to me
436
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,240
# Don't dictate
437
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,800
# Don't dictate
438
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,760
# Don't dictate, dictate to me... #
439
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,440
What was it like, being a punk in Ferryhill in Durham?
440
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,520
The general public of where we lived, I mean,
441
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,520
it was a totally different culture.
442
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,640
It was the workmen's club culture.
443
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,600
Men were men, women were women.
444
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,160
Most people didn't like to stand out,
445
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,400
because they would be worried about what other people thought of them.
446
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,800
A very close-knit community.
447
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,440
Everyone knew what everyone was doing.
448
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,200
So, when we started to go out and do things with the band,
449
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,760
obviously, people would discuss it.
450
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,960
And we did get chased
451
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,440
or we did get a brick through our window.
452
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,320
But nothing we couldn't handle.
453
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:24,760
# Penetrating voices going through my head
454
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,560
# I haven't listened to a thing they've said
455
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,680
# Always they removed the answers... #
456
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,520
What was the reaction in your family to the name of the band?
457
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,840
They thought it was a bit of a laugh.
458
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,600
Not that the neighbours did.
459
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,360
You know, I remember we went to Dundee and my dad had a T-shirt,
460
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,080
a home-made T-shirt that said "Penetration".
461
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,400
And we got out of the car and an old lady over the road shouted,
462
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,920
"Grandad punk!"
463
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,960
And I think he quite liked it.
464
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,240
# Time to think and ask anew
465
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,520
# Is it them or is it you?
466
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,960
# Let them go, set them free... #
467
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,440
Did you ever feel that you were being treated differently
468
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,960
by the other guys in the band because you're female?
469
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,680
I actually did just feel like one of the boys.
470
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,120
# It's all a fascination
471
00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:15,880
# All your imagination... #
472
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,040
What were your aspirations when you got into a punk band?
473
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,760
- What did you hope for?
- It was about doing something creatively new
474
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,440
whilst operating almost outside of the system.
475
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,160
If that's at all possible.
476
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,000
And we did for a little while operate outside of the system.
477
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,920
# I want to know-oh-oh-oh
478
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,400
# Oooooh. #
479
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,520
CHEERING
480
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,200
Pauline and other girls were part of punk right from the start.
481
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,840
And female artists continued to fight for space in the scene,
482
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,880
gradually bagging record deals.
483
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,080
If Pauline found that changing attitudes
484
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,400
in a small northern town was a big ask,
485
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,400
you'd think that life as a punk in London might have been easier.
486
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,560
But as one Londoner discovered, opposition was everywhere.
487
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,400
You're a typical girl, you tried out being in a band with Sid Vicious,
488
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,440
that didn't work. Then you find your musical soul-mates.
489
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,520
You terrify the boys. The skinheads want to physically hurt you.
490
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,160
But you've got a vision, a manifesto, in fact,
491
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,560
and playing live is being on the front line.
492
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,880
So, you're going to have to be absolutely fearless.
493
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,640
THEY SING
494
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,640
The Slits lived in a very violent time.
495
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,000
You know, '76, '77.
496
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,400
It was very scary on the streets.
497
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,280
We had to go everywhere together as a group of three or four,
498
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,040
because the way we were dressed was so alien to the times
499
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,600
that men everywhere found us incredibly threatening.
500
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,520
And skinhead girls and Teddy girls.
501
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,960
We would be attacked physically, verbally.
502
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,080
Ari got stabbed twice in the street.
503
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,400
I mean, she was 15 years old.
504
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,480
We were often running for our lives.
505
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,760
'The infamous Slits, a much-publicised all-girl band
506
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,600
'who've never actually made a record.
507
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,040
'Indeed, they have refused offers from several record labels.'
508
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,480
Undeterred by the violence, The Slits remained united.
509
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,120
They didn't want to sell out.
510
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:21,120
After all, punk was about doing things on their own terms.
511
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:24,560
We had a vision. You know, we're going to change things for girls,
512
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,440
we're going to change things for music.
513
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,560
You know, we weren't just going and playing gigs,
514
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,160
we were doing something very new. We were absolutely driven.
515
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,280
We'd spent months and months discussing,
516
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,920
"How should we stand on stage?"
517
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,080
"Because we don't want to stand how men stand,
518
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,520
"with our legs wide open and the guitar right down there
519
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,640
"like we've got great big, heavy bollocks hanging down or something!"
520
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,360
We even talked about not using breathy, little-girl voices,
521
00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:48,160
which a lot of women sang in back then.
522
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,640
You know, I said,
523
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,560
"Oh, I sing like you're shouting across a playground at a mate."
524
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,520
And actually, a girl's voice isn't that different to a boy's voice
525
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,800
when you're going, "Oi, John!"
526
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,920
# Typical girls get upset too quickly
527
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,360
# Typical girls... #
528
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:08,120
When you imagine The Slits' audience when you're up there on stage,
529
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:09,680
I mean, how important was it
530
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,120
to you that boys were there as well as girls?
531
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:15,200
I said, I want us to be a band that boys want to be in,
532
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,320
and the gang that boys want to be in
533
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,320
and wear clothes that boys want to copy.
534
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,760
I mean, of course, girls, we were there for girls mostly,
535
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,240
but also wanted to show guys that we were equally as cool.
536
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:31,520
# Typical boy, that typical boy Gets that typical girl
537
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,360
# That typical girl gets that typical boy. #
538
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,600
If the Brits were driven,
539
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,360
one girl who came out of the New York punk scene
540
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,280
was a little bit more reticent.
541
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,840
# You may find yourself in a beautiful house... #
542
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,600
Growing up, Tina Weymouth always wanted to be a boy.
543
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,600
However, she didn't particularly want to be in a band.
544
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,400
It took her boyfriend, Chris Frantz,
545
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,840
ages to persuade her into joining Talking Heads.
546
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,800
David Byrne made her audition three times.
547
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,200
Nobody played the bass, so that was her job.
548
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,800
She drove them to gigs, cut their hair and gave them her last sandwich.
549
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,480
However, what she describes as a sideline role
550
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,240
quickly proved to be crucial.
551
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,680
# ..Which is on fire
552
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,120
# On fire...#
553
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:23,600
So, tell me a bit about your early meetings
554
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,720
with the band, with Talking Heads.
555
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,800
Obviously, you were in a relationship with Chris at that point.
556
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,360
I was. It was Chris's idea to form this band.
557
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:36,560
It took two years for me to enter into it.
558
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:42,320
- Why was that?
- I just thought that it was too difficult. You know?
559
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,400
I just thought, "I'm going to be up against a lot of flak."
560
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,720
- For being the girl?
- Yes.
561
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,440
But Chris had another idea,
562
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,840
he thought it was going to bring attention to the group.
563
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,520
And it did.
564
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:55,960
And it worked.
565
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,560
Do you remember hearing from Chris
566
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,920
what David thought about you joining the group?
567
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,200
He said to me, he thought that women's role
568
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,040
shouldn't really be in the big world
569
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,880
- because it was a dangerous place for women.
- He really said this?
570
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,520
He really said this to me.
571
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,640
# Ba ba ba ba
572
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,920
# Ba ba ba ba... #
573
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,360
- You had very short hair.
- Yes.
- Where did that look come from?
574
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,480
Well, that came from David. One day he said, "You know,
575
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,280
"I think it will make your eyes look bigger if you have short hair."
576
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,960
So, I said, "OK," I thought,
577
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,560
"Well, if it pleases him."
578
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,640
We're going right on to the next number.
579
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,280
Tell me about your involvement with Psycho Killer.
580
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,320
David was listening to Alice Cooper
581
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,960
and thought, "I can do something really rude."
582
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,880
So, David said, "I need lyrics."
583
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,520
And so, we brainstormed.
584
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,800
I said, "Well, Hitchcock would say
585
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,200
"I'm gonna kill you because you're rude, you're not polite."
586
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,960
# You start a conversation and You can't even finish it
587
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,280
# You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything. #
588
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,160
And he had this really brilliant idea, which was,
589
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,880
"I want to create a sense of schism,
590
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,280
"where he changes personality
591
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,920
"from being one person to being another person.
592
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,560
"I think the best way to do that is change language."
593
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,240
So, I wrote lyrics to that effect.
594
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,520
# Oh, oh
595
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,040
# Psycho killer
596
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,240
# Qu'est-ce que c'est
597
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,880
# Fa fa fa fa... #
598
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,640
Didn't always get the pronunciation right
599
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,240
but it was a good approximation and people kind of got it.
600
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,480
Although I noticed today
601
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,320
that when people covered the song
602
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,120
they copy the mistakes!
603
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,240
# Realisant mon espoir
604
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,800
# Je me lance, vers la gloire, OK...#
605
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,760
Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth posited this idea
606
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,840
that women are drawn to the bass
607
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,680
- because it is a naturally nurturing role.
- Oh, please(!)
608
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,000
I don't think it has anything to do with gender
609
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,400
and it's one of the reasons I don't...I've always eschewed
610
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,840
answering "feminist" questions.
611
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,240
It's just such... It's so loaded.
612
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,160
If you want to do something, just do it, don't talk about it
613
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,080
and don't criticise other women.
614
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,480
If they want to go out, you know,
615
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,880
and swing on a wrecking ball naked, why not?
616
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,200
Let them do what they want!
617
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,160
We just are smart as women because
618
00:31:55,160 --> 00:32:01,160
we have our balls neatly tucked inside where they're protected.
619
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,560
And that's that.
620
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,840
That's a-a-a-all! Over to you!
621
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,120
If David Byrne really thought
622
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,200
the world was a dangerous place for women,
623
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,560
he'd be aghast at the thought of our next band, Girlschool,
624
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,000
who found themselves in amongst this lot.
625
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,760
Heavy metal was the last male domain in music.
626
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,920
But one band piqued the interest of Lemmy and joined the hard-gigging,
627
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,960
hard-drinking, access-all-areas world of the monsters of rock.
628
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,200
Why do you think you were drawn to metal? What was it about metal...
629
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,120
Well, I grew up listening to it, you know?
630
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,400
First couple of concerts I went to, Hammersmith Odeon with my mate,
631
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,960
from school when we were 16, I think, something like that.
632
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,440
Black Sabbath, saw Black Sabbath there,
633
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,480
and Deep Purple on the Burn tour.
634
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,360
Little did I know that later on in the years
635
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,000
we'd actually be playing with them!
636
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,680
# Come on!
637
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,440
- # Nothing to lose, come on! CROWD:
- Nothing to lose!
638
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,320
# Nothing to lose! #
639
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,840
When you first played rock clubs
640
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,600
that had probably only ever seen male bands in them before,
641
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,840
do you ever feel you had to win the audience over?
642
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,040
I think at the beginning,
643
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,120
people didn't really know what to make of us.
644
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,680
You know, I think first of all they just looked at us
645
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,000
as if to say, "What the hell is going on here?" You know?
646
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,640
- Did you get any heckles?
- Oh, God, yeah,
647
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,280
it used to always be, "Get your tits out!" basically, you know?
648
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,880
And we used to say, "Get yours out first!"
649
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,080
# Oh, we're the barmy Girlschool army
650
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:42,280
# La-la-la-la-la! #
651
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,000
Shut up!
652
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,680
After learning their trade playing sweaty rock clubs,
653
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,360
Girlschool received the ultimate metal seal of approval.
654
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,320
This little band called Motorhead
655
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,200
happened to be looking for a support band.
656
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,640
And Lemmy heard the single
657
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,920
and he came down to rehearsal to see if we could actually play.
658
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,520
And, of course, then, we...
659
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,320
They invited us on their first major British tour.
660
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,320
# You can tell by the look in the eye
661
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,720
# The feeling comes as no surprise. #
662
00:34:16,720 --> 00:34:19,280
We'd never been on a tour like it.
663
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,400
So, we didn't really know what to expect.
664
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,120
We shared a bus with Motorhead, as well, on the first tour.
665
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,800
So, of course, we hardly even knew 'em.
666
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,600
First of all, when we saw pictures before we actually met them
667
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,040
we were going, "What the hell?" You know? Petrified.
668
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,000
# Break down, b-b-break down
669
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,640
# Break down
670
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,320
# Break down, b-b-break down
671
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,760
# You got me, break down. #
672
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,400
On tour with Motorhead, were you under pressure
673
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,560
to party as hard as them because you had to keep your end up?
674
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,840
We didn't find any pressure whatsoever.
675
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,320
There was no mention of cups of tea or anything like that,
676
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,880
basically they used to bring us in crates of Special Brew.
677
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,120
# Please don't touch me, baby, cos I'm shaking so much
678
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,680
# Please don't touch me, baby, cos I'm shaking so much...#
679
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,800
So tell me about Please Don't Touch.
680
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,680
Vic Maile, our producer, basically.
681
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,120
And then started to work with Motorhead, as well.
682
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,480
And he's the one who came up with the idea, he said,
683
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,320
"Why don't you two get together to do Please Don't Touch?"
684
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,480
# Please, please don't touch
685
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,000
# I shake so much
686
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,560
# Please don't touch
687
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,200
# I shake so much. #
688
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,440
It went straight to number five.
689
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,440
That was, we've still got the silver, silver record.
690
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,080
I mean, it sold a quarter of a million and went to number five.
691
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,320
That was a really exciting time.
692
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,960
I mean, the first time we went on Top Of The Pops, it was massive!
693
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:41,880
# ..I shake so much
694
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,400
# Please, please, don't touch... #
695
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,280
Were you seen as dangerous girls?
696
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,440
One American tour, on the back of the T-shirts, it said,
697
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,480
"The Lock-Up-Your-Sons Tour",
698
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,800
which we thought was absolutely brilliant. So...
699
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,040
- All these innocent young boys coming to see you...
- Yeah, yeah, exactly!
700
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,720
- ..changed forever.
- Yeah. I hope so!
701
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,560
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
702
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,360
Imagine being at a Joy Division gig
703
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,360
and being asked to stand in for Ian Curtis on stage.
704
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,960
Then joining the remaining members of the band in their new incarnation.
705
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,600
You're not the frontwoman, you don't get to sing and dance around,
706
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,240
but gradually you find yourself in charge of the technicals.
707
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,880
When Ian died, the manager, Rob,
708
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,800
he said, um, to Stephen
709
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,280
and the rest of the group, "What do you think about Gillian joining?"
710
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,040
Because you can never replace Ian
711
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,240
and they didn't want another singer, so,
712
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:57,160
they decided they needed one person to play keyboards and guitar.
713
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,400
Rob was a bit strange.
714
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,280
The first thing he said was,
715
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,400
"Right, you've got to learn how to tune up a guitar."
716
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,320
And I'm like, "Oh, God, I'll have to."
717
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,680
And then I didn't realise till a month later,
718
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,680
HE couldn't even tune a guitar.
719
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,000
Tell me about your own creative role in the group,
720
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,840
and how that emerged over time.
721
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,000
I was in charge of all the equipment,
722
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,240
all the keyboards,
723
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:36,040
and starting all the sequencers.
724
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,440
# Up, down, turn around Please don't let me hit the ground
725
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,560
# Tonight, I think I'll walk alone I'll find my soul as I go home... #
726
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,840
Because you were programming sequencers,
727
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,080
you had to know the note names,
728
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,120
cos they all played by ear.
729
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,000
Bernard used to say, "Oh, what note do you think will go in there?"
730
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,720
And I'm like, "Oh, it's an A sharp," and he'd be like, "Oh, right."
731
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:05,520
MUSIC: Blue Monday by New Order
732
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,240
What are your memories of Top Of The Pops?
733
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:12,600
We were in our "We want to play everything live" phase.
734
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:13,840
Top Of The Pops say,
735
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,360
"We don't do anything live. Everybody's got to mime."
736
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,400
"Well, no, we don't want to mime!"
737
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,080
So, that caused a big uproar.
738
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:29,080
# How does it feel When you treat me like you do
739
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:35,920
# And you've laid your hands upon me And told me who you are... #
740
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,840
Another thing about Top Of The Pops, they like you to move.
741
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,840
And as soon as they saw me, especially,
742
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,400
I had to start it all, and then just stand there waiting for my cue.
743
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,200
They couldn't get their head round that.
744
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,280
- It was like, "Oh, dear, we've got problems, they don't move!"
- SHE LAUGHS
745
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:58,280
MUSIC: Blue Monday by New Order
746
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,560
But their lack of movement didn't deter the Football Association,
747
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,440
who needed a song for England's 1990 World Cup campaign,
748
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,880
and it was Gillian who obliged.
749
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:15,400
World In Motion, such a famously blokey song, how did that come about?
750
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,240
We'd worked on a Janet Street-Porter production
751
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:21,560
that was called Reportage.
752
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,840
I wrote the one at the end with the credits, and she'd said,
753
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,920
"Well, the Reportage piece could be the start
754
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,880
"of the World In Motion song."
755
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:39,920
MUSIC: World In Motion by New Order
756
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,560
They weren't really into football, the rest of New Order,
757
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,200
there was only me and my dad, we used to watch World Cup games
758
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,360
together, so I was really into football, so it was like, "Yeah!"
759
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,800
- My dad was so proud of me! Yeah!
- SHE LAUGHS
760
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,960
And we met them in the studio,
761
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,320
and Paul Gascoigne came in and went, "Eh, that's a big organ, in't it?"
762
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:01,840
You know, the mixing desk.
763
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:09,000
# Love's got the world in motion And I know what we can do... #
764
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,600
World In Motion became New Order's only number one hit in the UK.
765
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,480
# ..And I can't believe it's true.. #
766
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,400
Gillian Gilbert and Stephen Morris had been in a relationship
767
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,880
for years, proving sometimes, rock-and-roll couples can work.
768
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,320
But can you expect such a harmonious ride when you marry Mark E Smith?
769
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:32,880
What really went on there? We only have this excerpt.
770
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,240
LA-born art student and Anglophile indie freak Laura Elisse Salenger
771
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:40,360
got talking to Mark E Smith one night after a gig.
772
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,480
Within six months, she was living in Prestwich, and a member of The Fall.
773
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,840
MUSIC: Cruiser's Creek by The Fall
774
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,120
Hello, Brix Smith, I'm Kate.
775
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,440
- Oh, look at these guys!
- That's Pixie.
- Pixie and Gladys?
- Yeah.
776
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,280
# There's a party going down around here
777
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,560
# Cruiser's Creek now... #
778
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,800
So, tell me how you found out about The Fall and how you became a member.
779
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,360
We saw in the Chicago Reader that The Fall were coming to play.
780
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:12,760
I was waiting in line to get beer,
781
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,440
and as I got my beer and I turned around,
782
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,480
bam, smacked into the singer.
783
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,080
He had a bottle of beer in each hand
784
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,560
and a line of white powder coming down his nose,
785
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,600
which should have been a red flag, but hey, rock and roll!
786
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,600
# I'm totally wired
787
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,560
# T-T-T-Totally wired... #
788
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,360
He said, "You know, we were invited to a party afterwards,
789
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,560
"do you want to come?" and I said, "Sure!"
790
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,400
And we got in the car and he said to me, "What do you do?"
791
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:40,880
and I said, "I'm in a band,"
792
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,600
and he said, "Oh, do you have any tapes of your music?"
793
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,800
And I put the tape in, and he said, "Who wrote these songs?"
794
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:51,000
and I said, "I did," and he said, "You're a fucking genius".
795
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,320
And, basically, it was sort of decided over the next couple of days
796
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,640
that he would bring me over to England to help me
797
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,480
get a solo record deal and sort of mastermind it and be my Svengali.
798
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,880
Mark E Smith had other ideas, and thought his new-found genius
799
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,840
would make a good addition to The Fall,
800
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,120
so he wooed Brix to the delights of Manchester.
801
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,320
When I landed, I was shocked.
802
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:23,440
Driving from the train station, I... It was just...so heinous.
803
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,800
And Mark was so excited, like, he is, like, loves Manchester.
804
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,120
He showed me the must-see sights.
805
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,000
So, he was like, "Look, Brixie, over there's Boddingtons' Brewery!"
806
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,600
And I'm like "Yeah, great(!)" He goes, "That's Strangeways prison!"
807
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,000
I'm like, "God...!"
808
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,920
# Purchased a pair of flabby wings
809
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,880
# I took to doing some hovering... #
810
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,400
But, saying that, I was where I wanted to be,
811
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,680
I was doing what I wanted to do, and I was with a man that I loved.
812
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,960
# Pick the fleas, Mister
813
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,880
# Eat y'self fitter... #
814
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,520
Three months later, they were Mr and Mrs Smith,
815
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,600
and Brix was now writing songs and a fully fledged member of The Fall.
816
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:12,840
MUSIC: 2x4 by The Fall
817
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,080
Can you explain what you brought to The Fall?
818
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,040
What I did was I just wove a bit of light into their dark,
819
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,280
which, sonically, people could hear,
820
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,440
like, aurally, and it would stay in their head.
821
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,480
MUSIC: 2x4 by The Fall
822
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,240
Did the TV appearances sort of escalate once you joined the group?
823
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:39,760
Yeah. When we got on TV, when we did videos,
824
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,720
I was on the cover of magazines, we were all on the cover. Um...
825
00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:45,320
I felt great about this.
826
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,800
I think Mark was also extremely happy about it.
827
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,640
# Victoria
828
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,240
# Victoria... #
829
00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:59,120
Between 1983 and 1996, Brix wrote songs
830
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,640
and featured on over seven albums for The Fall.
831
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,400
What would you say the most difficult thing on a day-to-day level
832
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,560
about being in a band with your other half was?
833
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:12,360
I don't know. I mean, he's not the easiest guy, personally,
834
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,040
but it was great to be kind of a double act, in a way,
835
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,800
because we had each other to bounce off,
836
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,800
and because we're so polar opposite,
837
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,120
it was fascinating to everybody how we could be a couple.
838
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:23,760
# Cruiser's Creek! #
839
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,960
In the late '80s, the American charts were filled with heavy metal bands,
840
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,400
and women were often the spandexed adornments.
841
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,280
# Girls, girls, girls... #
842
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,000
But there was an alternative.
843
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,880
Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth was to become the godmother of grunge,
844
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,520
inspiring a whole generation of girls in bands.
845
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,720
Once upon a time, there were two sisters
846
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:02,240
raised on a diet of hair metal and The Sound Of Music in Dayton, Ohio.
847
00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:03,840
One joined the Pixies.
848
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,480
# This monkey's gone to heaven... #
849
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,160
The other one became a programme analyst for a defence contractor.
850
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,360
When Kim Deal wanted to start a new band, she gave her sister,
851
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,680
Kelley, a call, even though Kelley couldn't play guitar.
852
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,680
Thus, The Breeders were born.
853
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,840
What's it like trying to penetrate the strange creative world
854
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,160
of identical twin sisters?
855
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,920
I always wanted to be in a band and play music with people.
856
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,960
Being in Dayton and being a girl...
857
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,840
I'm trying to think of anybody in Dayton at that time that
858
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,760
I can remember, that did anything other than sing,
859
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,240
or like, maybe played a keyboard, or played...
860
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:49,600
..tambourine or something.
861
00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:57,640
How was it for you working in a band with two sisters?
862
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,160
I found it kind of difficult, actually, in the beginning.
863
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:03,720
Not only because I was like,
864
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:07,080
"Who is this person who's joined the band who can't play anything?"
865
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,920
And then second of all, because they do know each other
866
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:14,120
so very well, and sometimes, the gloves are off.
867
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,400
- Is it fisticuffs?
- No...
- God, I wish!
- It's just...
- Wouldn't that be great?
868
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,400
It's very raw and it's very, like, "Oh, my God,
869
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,840
"how can they be like this with each other?"
870
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,480
And then the next minute, everything seems like it's fine.
871
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,320
MUSIC: Cannonball by The Breeders
872
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,600
# Spitting in a wishing well
873
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,280
# Blown to hell, crash
874
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:40,640
# I'm the last splash... #
875
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,360
Tell me the best thing about being in a band with your sister.
876
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,040
Well, musically, there's a lot of short cuts.
877
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,920
"Pretend like you're going into McGuffy's House of Draft, OK,
878
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,800
"and you know the smell of the beer there, and that...
879
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,120
"OK, remember that one bathroom? OK, play it like that."
880
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,160
# In the shade
881
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,200
# In the shade... #
882
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,360
# With the lights out it's less dangerous... #
883
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,240
As grunge broke and Nirvana led the way, Kurt Cobain said
884
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:15,920
The Breeders' debut album, Pod, had been a huge influence on him.
885
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,360
All the media attention, it was about...
886
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,800
- you know, alternative music and Nirvana.
- Yeah.
887
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,080
And the whole changeover from a certain type of music
888
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,480
to another type of music, I think, and we were in the middle of that.
889
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,720
Stuff that had been kind of obscure
890
00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:35,000
and not particularly well-known, except for by...
891
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,120
- you know, aficionados.
- You know, trading tapes...
892
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,640
All of a sudden, that became what was mainstream.
893
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,440
# Want you Coocoo cannonball
894
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,920
# Want you Coocoo cannonball
895
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,040
In 1993, The Breeders were on a high.
896
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,680
The song Cannonball was named Melody Maker's single of the year.
897
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,600
The video was directed by Spike Jonze and Kim Gordon herself.
898
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,840
How did the media treat you for being a mostly female band?
899
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:08,080
We definitely got lumped in with...erm...
900
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,280
It became a bit of a thing, where, you know, a whole list of people
901
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,760
would be name-checked, as if it was some "movement".
902
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,880
# When we pretend that we're dead... #
903
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,360
The Breeders were part of a new shift of girl-fronted bands.
904
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,880
Grunge and the underground punk scene, Riot Grrrl,
905
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,960
gave girls a new freedom and a bigger say in alternative music.
906
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,200
To be talked about in the media as being part of that,
907
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,360
and name-checked as, you know, being a girl band and whatever,
908
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:41,440
it never really bothered me, because I subscribed to the Oscar Wilde
909
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,720
"the only thing worse than being talked about
910
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:46,240
"is not being talked about."
911
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:51,680
# I'm just looking for one divine hammer... #
912
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,680
I don't think I'd want to be in a band with all guys.
913
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,320
- I would find that so boring.
- Why would that be boring?
914
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,560
Oh, God... Cos guys are boring!
915
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,400
# One divine hammer
916
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,000
# One divine hammer. #
917
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,000
The Breeders and others were finding the world of rock
918
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,440
more accessible to girls.
919
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,960
British indie had also been accommodating,
920
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,600
and it offered a home from home for two girls from London.
921
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,600
# My eyes to heaven
922
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,920
# Pink cloud sits sky-high... #
923
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:34,680
When I was about 12,
924
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:39,200
my mum went to live in America, I lived with my dad,
925
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:44,680
he wasn't around very much, I'd moved schools, I was quite lonely.
926
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,600
That was the point when music became, like, a real obsession.
927
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,480
Music became my sort of community, and so, when I met Emma,
928
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,360
who was also in Lush, we were quite similar in that way, actually,
929
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,920
so we started going to gigs together,
930
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,640
and then suddenly being in a band is, like, quite easy,
931
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,080
actually, because everyone's in a band.
932
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,760
Most of them are awful, so you think, "Well, I can do that."
933
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:15,200
# Hand on my heart
934
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,560
# And I... #
935
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:22,200
When we started, it was just writing music and playing it live,
936
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,880
and we didn't really think that much about the sound.
937
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,040
In fact, we had no technical knowledge about guitars
938
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,800
or anything, and because we weren't confident musicians,
939
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,360
because we weren't confident singers, that, sort of,
940
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,200
effects and swirliness, it cloaks a lot.
941
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:39,400
It really does!
942
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:44,640
# Ah, oh... #
943
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:50,480
In 1992, Perry Farrell from Jane's Addiction liked their sound so much
944
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,560
that Lush found themselves catapulted
945
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,760
into America's alternative rock scene,
946
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,840
when they were asked to play at Lollapalooza
947
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,960
alongside the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
948
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,400
So, we got onto this bill, which was just ridiculous,
949
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,000
and because we were the underdogs
950
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,520
and we had absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain,
951
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,920
we had a really good time, actually, and we really enjoyed it.
952
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:17,000
But it was, you know, introduction to big American rock.
953
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,600
# What I've got you've got to give it to your mamma... #
954
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,680
A few years later,
955
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,200
Miki took her experience of meeting the Chili Peppers'
956
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,760
red-blooded Anthony Kiedis at Lollapalooza,
957
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,120
and used it as inspiration for Lush's hit Ladykillers.
958
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,720
# Hey, you, the muscles and the long hair
959
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:36,480
# Telling me that women are superior to men
960
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,960
# Most guys just don't appreciate this
961
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,000
# You just try convincing me you're better than them... #
962
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,000
Loads of people at the time that I wrote Ladykillers,
963
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,840
when it came out, they were like,
964
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,040
"Oh, it's really sexist towards men!
965
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:50,640
"And, you know, we're just...
966
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,360
"if we give women attention we're just trying to chat women up."
967
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,200
I don't mind flirting with people,
968
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,920
I just don't like being sleazed.
969
00:51:58,920 --> 00:51:59,960
Watch this lot,
970
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:02,680
I once tried to get off with the lead singer after a Pulp concert.
971
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,800
Chatted her up a bit, she gave me her phone number,
972
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:06,720
when I rang it, it was a pizza delivery place.
973
00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:09,280
So, I ordered an extra topping and never saw her again.
974
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,280
Till tonight, that is. Have a good look, this is Lush.
975
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:13,320
CHEERING
976
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:18,280
# Single girl, I don't wanna be a single girl... #
977
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,360
In 1996, Lush found themselves described in the press
978
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,400
as a Britpop band, and surrounded by new lads to boot.
979
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:31,600
# I live my life in the city There's no easy way out... #
980
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,320
I didn't really like the Britpop thing,
981
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,880
and I didn't like the association. To me, the landscape changed.
982
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,520
It was about being a bloke, it was about having swagger,
983
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,280
it was about "larging it".
984
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,240
# Looking for Girls who are boys
985
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:47,360
# Who like boys to be girls... #
986
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:52,160
Don't get me wrong, I have danced my arse off to Girls And Boys by Blur,
987
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,480
you know, it's fun, but I just felt excluded.
988
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,280
There was a lot of nice people,
989
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,120
but some of them were dickheads and arseholes.
990
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,160
Did you ever get any hassle from the male Britpop bands?
991
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,600
I remember Alex from Blur...
992
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,400
sinking his teeth into my arse.
993
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,280
And he thought it was hilarious,
994
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:14,600
and he thought I'd be really flattered,
995
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,280
and this is what I mean about the change.
996
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,840
Suddenly it seemed OK to relate to women in that way.
997
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,200
In the age of the lads' mag, the band soon discovered
998
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,560
that the media wanted more from them than just music.
999
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,960
We had a few experiences with photographers,
1000
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:35,400
and I remember turning up,
1001
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:41,160
and there was a sort of rail of, you know, stuff for us to wear, and...
1002
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:42,400
erm...
1003
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,320
I was honestly dressed in a skirt
1004
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,600
that was like a football scarf or something,
1005
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,360
I mean, it barely covered my arse.
1006
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:52,760
And the photographer was going,
1007
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,000
"Right, so if you could just turn around and sort of,
1008
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,760
"you know, just bend over and sort of,
1009
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,920
"if you just open your legs a bit and kind of..."
1010
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,000
And I was like...
1011
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,280
"Fuck!" Like, absolutely no way.
1012
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,400
# Shake, baby, shake
1013
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:12,040
# You know I can fit you in my arms... #
1014
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:17,200
20 years after laddism became a dirty word, Lush have decided to reform.
1015
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,840
It's a great thing to play a gig, it's so exciting.
1016
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,600
You create something in a room, you know,
1017
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,520
you create a real HAPPENING, it's an event.
1018
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,600
And that, I think, you know, was visceral.
1019
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,560
The rest of it, the kind of, you know, the...
1020
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,840
Hanging out with whoever it is, you know, you can keep that!
1021
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,520
# Single girl
1022
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,160
# I just wanna be a single... #
1023
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,560
Miki from Lush may have loved the creativity of band life,
1024
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:46,040
although in the past few years,
1025
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,520
it's female solo artists who have dominated the charts.
1026
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:50,600
# ..For me
1027
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:52,520
# Who run the world? Girls... #
1028
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,680
But the bands are still out there.
1029
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,960
Perhaps, having deconstructed everything,
1030
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:02,200
we should be thinking about putting everything back together.
1031
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,320
50 years after Carol Kaye had made Frank Sinatra do a double-take,
1032
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,080
an explosive foursome from London still found themselves answering
1033
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:15,320
the age-old line of inquiry, "What's it like being a girl in a band?"
1034
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,120
Which is a pretty dumb question to ask Savages.
1035
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:23,600
# Speaking words to the blind... #
1036
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,240
When people ask, "How does it feel to be a woman in a band?"
1037
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:34,080
I'm like, "OK, how does it feel to be a woman walking up the stairs?
1038
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,840
"How does it feel to be a woman eating a sandwich?"
1039
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:38,800
You see, like, I think it's just absurd.
1040
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,920
# ..Who truly saw your soul
1041
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:44,160
# I'm the one... #
1042
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,200
Each one of us in the band were raised by our parents
1043
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,520
thinking we could do anything.
1044
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,760
Like, it wasn't special that Fay was playing the drums,
1045
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,280
or Gemma was going to play guitar.
1046
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:03,880
Have you ever had to deal with,
1047
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,960
like, the classic male hecklers in the audience?
1048
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,560
Yeah, it happened in Bridlington.
1049
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,040
For some reason, the crowd was really crazy that night.
1050
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,440
# Oh, God, I wanna get rid of it
1051
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,080
# Oh, God, I wanna get Get rid of it... #
1052
00:56:19,240 --> 00:56:22,840
At some point in between two songs, they started shouting,
1053
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,360
"Get your tits out for the lads."
1054
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,520
I thought they were chanting something cool, like,
1055
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:29,560
something good,
1056
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:31,960
and I turned to Fay, the drummer, and I was like, "Hey!"
1057
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:33,960
She was like...
1058
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:38,520
"No! This is not cool!" And I didn't get it until the end of the show.
1059
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,600
But the girls got it, and they were really angry.
1060
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,600
But that was the only time it happened.
1061
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,920
So, maybe it's just Bridlington.
1062
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,440
# City's full of
1063
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,160
# City's full of... #
1064
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,320
It may have been a solo heckler in Bridlington,
1065
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,240
but 20 years after The Breeders and Lush
1066
00:56:55,240 --> 00:56:58,520
found themselves getting headlines for being girls in rock bands,
1067
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:00,600
the New York Times ran an article
1068
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:05,240
suggesting that, even in 2015, girls in bands are an exotic sight.
1069
00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:08,520
The New York Times, they wrote a really good article about us,
1070
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:12,880
but the title was "Girls At Work".
1071
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,680
And under the picture, it was written,
1072
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:19,000
"Savages, a female rock band from London."
1073
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,600
A fan took a picture of that little caption,
1074
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,720
and they crossed out the word "female".
1075
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,200
It got a bit mental, like, all our fans retweeted it,
1076
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:35,000
then the next day, when you went back to the New York Times website,
1077
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:36,920
they had changed the title.
1078
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,800
We're so used to that macho kind of vision,
1079
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,680
and that's just normal, that's just how it is.
1080
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:49,320
As soon you start pointing out that it's not right, that's how,
1081
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:51,680
you know, things can start to change.
1082
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,240
# City's full of
1083
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,280
# Sissy pretty love, yeah. #
1084
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:02,600
Looking back over the decades,
1085
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,480
has there been any change for a girl in a band?
1086
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:12,800
I think there must have been a change, but I think it's a bit slow.
1087
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,800
What would you like to see in 10, 20 years' time?
1088
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:18,360
I would like...
1089
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,880
that when there's a woman
1090
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:25,920
that starts to live a little bit louder than the others,
1091
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,320
that she's not labelled feminist.
1092
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,920
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
1093
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:35,800
So, you've found yourself in a band.
1094
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:37,960
You might be playing bass to cover the bills,
1095
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:39,400
you could be escaping suburbia
1096
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,560
by going out on the road for the first time,
1097
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:45,120
or you could be teaming up with your sibling or your other half
1098
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,360
and allowing that relationship to play out through music.
1099
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,560
They say it's different for girls. What does that even mean?
1100
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,200
One thing's clear, we're obsessed with music,
1101
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,880
but sometimes you will find there's more to life
1102
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,320
than being just the girl in the band.
1103
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,920
# Let me tell you what we been doing
1104
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,120
# Neon angels on the road to ruin
1105
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,720
# Let me tell you what we been doing
1106
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:11,200
# Neon angels on the road to ruin
1107
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,760
# Let me tell you what we been doing
1108
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:19,800
# Neon angels on the road... #
87022
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