All language subtitles for Confessions.Of.A.Psycho.Killer.2023.1080p.WEBRip.x264.AAC-[YTS.MX]-en
Afrikaans
Albanian
Amharic
Arabic
Armenian
Azerbaijani
Basque
Belarusian
Bengali
Bosnian
Bulgarian
Catalan
Cebuano
Chichewa
Chinese (Simplified)
Chinese (Traditional)
Corsican
Croatian
Czech
Danish
Dutch
English
Esperanto
Estonian
Filipino
Finnish
French
Frisian
Galician
Georgian
German
Greek
Gujarati
Haitian Creole
Hausa
Hawaiian
Hebrew
Hindi
Hmong
Hungarian
Icelandic
Igbo
Indonesian
Irish
Italian
Japanese
Javanese
Kannada
Kazakh
Khmer
Korean
Kurdish (Kurmanji)
Kyrgyz
Lao
Latin
Latvian
Lithuanian
Luxembourgish
Macedonian
Malagasy
Malay
Malayalam
Maltese
Maori
Marathi
Mongolian
Myanmar (Burmese)
Nepali
Norwegian
Pashto
Persian
Polish
Portuguese
Punjabi
Romanian
Russian
Samoan
Scots Gaelic
Serbian
Sesotho
Shona
Sindhi
Sinhala
Slovak
Slovenian
Somali
Spanish
Sundanese
Swahili
Swedish
Tajik
Tamil
Telugu
Thai
Turkish
Ukrainian
Urdu
Uzbek
Vietnamese
Welsh
Xhosa
Yiddish
Yoruba
Zulu
Odia (Oriya)
Kinyarwanda
Turkmen
Tatar
Uyghur
Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000
Downloaded from
YTS.MX
2
00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,973
[dramatic music]
3
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
4
00:00:11,340 --> 00:00:13,740
- [Mackay Voiceover] I
wish to make a statement.
5
00:00:16,973 --> 00:00:20,073
I want someone to
write down what I say.
6
00:00:22,306 --> 00:00:25,140
I have been told I
need not say anything
7
00:00:25,140 --> 00:00:27,306
unless I wish to do so
8
00:00:27,306 --> 00:00:30,673
and what I say may
be given in evidence.
9
00:00:31,806 --> 00:00:36,706
♪ Sometimes I feel
like I'm blowing away ♪
10
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,723
♪ And the sky is broken
11
00:00:40,743 --> 00:00:42,840
♪ And floods like a vein
12
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,940
♪ And I pray and I pray
13
00:00:45,940 --> 00:00:49,640
♪ And I pray and I pray
14
00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,070
♪ But the answers don't come
15
00:00:52,110 --> 00:00:54,990
- [Mackay Voiceover] I grabbed
hold of him by his arm,
16
00:00:55,100 --> 00:00:56,673
I think the right one,
17
00:00:56,673 --> 00:00:59,773
and we both fell on the
floor in the hallway.
18
00:00:59,773 --> 00:01:03,240
I struggled and he
struggled on the floor
19
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,473
and he seemed to
get extremely nervy.
20
00:01:06,473 --> 00:01:08,873
He said, "Don't hurt me."
21
00:01:08,873 --> 00:01:11,873
This seemed to get me
even more excitable myself
22
00:01:11,873 --> 00:01:14,540
and then I started to strike him
23
00:01:14,540 --> 00:01:19,540
on the side of the head with
my hand and with my fist.
24
00:01:20,140 --> 00:01:22,340
[gentle music]
25
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:27,340
[birds chirping]
26
00:01:27,340 --> 00:01:28,840
[gentle music]
27
00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,273
The next thing I knew he had
broken loose from my grip
28
00:01:32,273 --> 00:01:36,173
and ran into the bathroom,
which is just off the hallway.
29
00:01:36,173 --> 00:01:38,773
[gentle music]
30
00:01:38,773 --> 00:01:41,840
Whilst I had been on the
floor of the hallway myself,
31
00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,273
I picked up an ax from a box,
lying just under the stairs,
32
00:01:46,273 --> 00:01:48,726
and began to feel
even more excitable.
33
00:01:48,756 --> 00:01:49,770
[gentle music]
34
00:01:49,790 --> 00:01:54,606
♪ Sometimes I feel like
I'm floating away ♪
35
00:01:55,406 --> 00:01:58,306
♪ And the tide is up
36
00:01:58,306 --> 00:02:00,540
♪ It covers the pain
37
00:02:00,540 --> 00:02:01,740
- [Mackay Voiceover] I have had
38
00:02:01,740 --> 00:02:03,540
the above statement
read over to me.
39
00:02:03,540 --> 00:02:06,273
I have been told I
can correct, alter
40
00:02:06,273 --> 00:02:08,060
or add anything I wish.
41
00:02:08,090 --> 00:02:11,906
♪ The answers don't
come anymore ♪
42
00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:14,706
- [Mackay Voiceover]
This statement is true,
43
00:02:14,706 --> 00:02:16,746
I have made it of
my own free will.
44
00:02:19,140 --> 00:02:21,406
Signed P. Mackay.
45
00:02:21,406 --> 00:02:24,006
[gentle music]
46
00:02:37,273 --> 00:02:41,873
Good gracious, this
still, it's vivid today,
47
00:02:41,873 --> 00:02:44,506
you know, you can remember
all those years ago.
48
00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:53,146
There is Father Crean in,
really a bath of blood now.
49
00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:56,140
[dramatic music]
50
00:02:57,773 --> 00:03:00,540
This is where Mackay
really attacked him.
51
00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:04,573
You can see the damage he's
done under his nostrils.
52
00:03:04,573 --> 00:03:07,873
He really took a heavy
lot of punching there.
53
00:03:07,873 --> 00:03:09,273
[dramatic music]
54
00:03:09,273 --> 00:03:12,800
By this time he had
actually killed him
55
00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:14,640
and he had killed
him with an ax.
56
00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:16,273
- [Reporter] Police
have searched the house,
57
00:03:16,273 --> 00:03:19,140
the sizable garden and
a plowed field behind it
58
00:03:19,140 --> 00:03:21,673
for signs of the
murderer or his weapon.
59
00:03:21,673 --> 00:03:25,740
- This is the ax that was
found under the stairs
60
00:03:25,740 --> 00:03:29,373
in Father Crean's house.
61
00:03:29,373 --> 00:03:31,440
[dramatic music]
62
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,840
And this is the ax that actually
63
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:35,873
battered Father Crean to death.
64
00:03:38,373 --> 00:03:40,110
It had brain and blood,
65
00:03:40,140 --> 00:03:42,573
still probably has
if you was to DNA it.
66
00:03:42,573 --> 00:03:45,140
And down the handle
you got blood.
67
00:03:45,140 --> 00:03:46,873
[dramatic music]
68
00:03:46,873 --> 00:03:51,226
But there's the ax and it's
still today got the label on it
69
00:03:51,256 --> 00:03:54,006
as an exhibit
label in this case.
70
00:04:03,273 --> 00:04:07,140
Christ, this is Patrick,
71
00:04:07,140 --> 00:04:09,873
when you see him actually
getting worked up
72
00:04:09,913 --> 00:04:11,373
into a bit of a frenzy.
73
00:04:14,306 --> 00:04:19,173
You look at this photo and
this is where you can see,
74
00:04:19,173 --> 00:04:23,006
if you're trained at it,
the eyes of a killer.
75
00:04:23,006 --> 00:04:27,506
Never be unconscious to people
when you are looking at them.
76
00:04:27,506 --> 00:04:31,040
[dramatic music]
77
00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:32,613
Look 'em in the eyes,
78
00:04:33,506 --> 00:04:36,306
they're like an
Alsation gone wild.
79
00:04:36,306 --> 00:04:38,973
[dramatic music]
80
00:04:38,973 --> 00:04:40,140
- [Mackay Voiceover]
I feel terrible
81
00:04:40,140 --> 00:04:42,273
about what happened
all the more.
82
00:04:42,273 --> 00:04:43,740
[crow cawing]
83
00:04:43,740 --> 00:04:47,516
Because I do not know why
or what made me do it.
84
00:04:48,673 --> 00:04:51,673
I find it all a
confusing matter.
85
00:04:51,673 --> 00:04:53,946
You see, I'm scared of myself.
86
00:04:55,340 --> 00:04:58,340
At times I often
try to wonder why,
87
00:04:58,340 --> 00:05:01,873
but it's just plain hell.
88
00:05:01,873 --> 00:05:03,840
[dramatic music]
89
00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:07,940
I'm Ken Tappenden, retired
commander of Kent Police.
90
00:05:07,940 --> 00:05:11,473
And in March, 1975
91
00:05:11,473 --> 00:05:13,863
I was the Detective Inspector
92
00:05:13,973 --> 00:05:17,473
in charge of Gravesend
and Dartford Police.
93
00:05:17,473 --> 00:05:19,640
[gentle music]
94
00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,976
Gravesend has always
been the place
95
00:05:23,006 --> 00:05:25,673
that people never
wanted to be posted to.
96
00:05:25,673 --> 00:05:29,720
And there was a fair amount
of rough hooliganism going on.
97
00:05:29,770 --> 00:05:33,013
Lots of burglaries,
lots of GBHs,
98
00:05:33,093 --> 00:05:36,740
and in my time there, I think
I had about five murders.
99
00:05:36,740 --> 00:05:39,273
[typewriter keys clacking]
100
00:05:39,273 --> 00:05:41,473
[dramatic music]
101
00:05:41,473 --> 00:05:45,926
We came into what I call,
on that 21st, a normal day.
102
00:05:45,946 --> 00:05:50,133
But we were looking forward
to our celebration do
103
00:05:50,243 --> 00:05:52,273
in Maidstone, when
we were all going out
104
00:05:52,273 --> 00:05:55,840
in our DJs to enjoy the evening.
105
00:05:55,840 --> 00:06:00,830
We all went to what was then
the Great Danes in Maidstone,
106
00:06:00,860 --> 00:06:02,140
for this dinner.
107
00:06:02,140 --> 00:06:06,673
And that's when the
first indication we had
108
00:06:06,673 --> 00:06:09,673
that there was something
wrong back in Shorne.
109
00:06:09,673 --> 00:06:11,940
[dramatic music]
110
00:06:11,940 --> 00:06:15,273
The village of Shorne
was a very respectable
111
00:06:15,333 --> 00:06:17,190
and very nice village.
112
00:06:17,250 --> 00:06:18,906
[dramatic music]
113
00:06:18,906 --> 00:06:22,336
Father Crean lived in
the Carmelite home.
114
00:06:22,386 --> 00:06:24,063
There was nine nuns only there.
115
00:06:24,123 --> 00:06:25,873
He had been a vicar in Spain.
116
00:06:25,873 --> 00:06:28,363
He had been a
vicar in Gibraltar.
117
00:06:28,423 --> 00:06:29,923
He'd been around the world a bit
118
00:06:29,953 --> 00:06:32,073
before he came over to Shorne.
119
00:06:32,073 --> 00:06:34,140
[dramatic music]
120
00:06:34,140 --> 00:06:37,040
A nun had gone into the bathroom
121
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,256
and found the gruesome sight
122
00:06:39,336 --> 00:06:42,140
of Father Crean in
a bloodstain bath,
123
00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,063
holding his head with
like a towel on top of it
124
00:06:46,173 --> 00:06:47,873
with his brain coming out.
125
00:06:48,313 --> 00:06:51,146
So we knew then we had problems.
126
00:06:51,226 --> 00:06:52,473
[dramatic music]
127
00:06:52,473 --> 00:06:54,530
- I was awakened by
one of the sisters
128
00:06:54,570 --> 00:06:57,893
who said that Father had been
found dead in his bathroom.
129
00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,673
I thought, naturally,
he had a heart attack.
130
00:07:01,673 --> 00:07:04,273
I hardly got dressed
and came across.
131
00:07:04,273 --> 00:07:09,113
When I got there I saw Father
in the bathtub, fully dressed,
132
00:07:09,806 --> 00:07:12,590
submerged in the tub
and bashed in the face,
133
00:07:12,610 --> 00:07:13,936
blood all over the bathroom.
134
00:07:13,976 --> 00:07:15,860
- We then left the function,
135
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,546
leaving our wives over
there still in Maidstone
136
00:07:18,586 --> 00:07:21,953
to return to Shorne,
all in our DJs,
137
00:07:22,003 --> 00:07:24,486
at about half past
12 in the morning.
138
00:07:24,506 --> 00:07:26,840
[dramatic music]
139
00:07:28,706 --> 00:07:31,836
As soon as we got
there, we saw the ax,
140
00:07:31,886 --> 00:07:34,840
which was under the
stairs, in a box still,
141
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:36,673
but it was blood stained.
142
00:07:36,673 --> 00:07:38,930
The minute we got into the room
143
00:07:38,950 --> 00:07:41,073
you knew that was the weapon.
144
00:07:41,073 --> 00:07:44,306
[dramatic music]
145
00:07:44,306 --> 00:07:46,406
We then walked in.
146
00:07:46,456 --> 00:07:48,146
We didn't have far to walk.
147
00:07:48,196 --> 00:07:51,330
You go in, you see the bath
on the right, as you go in,
148
00:07:51,350 --> 00:07:53,373
you see his head hanging out,
149
00:07:53,373 --> 00:07:55,723
you see the curtains were drawn,
150
00:07:55,793 --> 00:07:58,333
blood was all over the walls.
151
00:07:58,463 --> 00:08:03,173
The water that was in
the bath was pure red.
152
00:08:03,223 --> 00:08:04,306
It was blood.
153
00:08:04,306 --> 00:08:06,243
It was so macabre.
154
00:08:06,283 --> 00:08:07,660
I mean you've seen
a lot of murders,
155
00:08:07,690 --> 00:08:08,923
I've seen a lots of murders,
156
00:08:08,963 --> 00:08:11,620
I've done 169 post-mortems.
157
00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,983
But I hadn't seen a head
158
00:08:14,013 --> 00:08:16,740
smashed from the skull
down the nose before.
159
00:08:16,740 --> 00:08:19,473
[dramatic music]
160
00:08:20,706 --> 00:08:22,806
The human part is,
161
00:08:22,806 --> 00:08:24,846
how can someone do it?
162
00:08:24,916 --> 00:08:27,206
But then you've gotta
revert to a detective.
163
00:08:27,206 --> 00:08:29,610
You've gotta catch
some bastard for it.
164
00:08:29,660 --> 00:08:32,440
[dramatic music]
165
00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,313
On the way back to the
nick, I'm mulling over
166
00:08:35,323 --> 00:08:36,346
and I'm mulling over.
167
00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:38,106
But the minute I sat at my desk,
168
00:08:38,106 --> 00:08:42,116
it just vividly came over me.
169
00:08:42,166 --> 00:08:44,073
[dramatic music]
170
00:08:44,073 --> 00:08:46,840
This could be Mackay.
171
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,006
[dramatic music]
172
00:08:50,006 --> 00:08:51,486
- I'm Nigel Nelson.
173
00:08:51,516 --> 00:08:54,450
I was formerly the crime reporter
on the Kent Evening Post.
174
00:08:55,490 --> 00:08:57,253
The people I was
dealing with at the time
175
00:08:57,283 --> 00:09:01,106
were the head of CID
there, who was Lou Hart.
176
00:09:01,106 --> 00:09:06,776
The detective inspector who
I spent most of my time with,
177
00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,106
which was Ken Tappenden.
178
00:09:08,106 --> 00:09:11,673
And quite clearly
they really were,
179
00:09:11,703 --> 00:09:14,606
even though they'd seen some pretty
horrific sites during their career,
180
00:09:14,636 --> 00:09:18,073
they were both pretty hard
bitten police officers.
181
00:09:18,236 --> 00:09:21,806
They found the whole experience
actually quite traumatic.
182
00:09:22,286 --> 00:09:24,710
The timing from a
newspaper point of view
183
00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:27,036
was absolutely hopeless
184
00:09:27,076 --> 00:09:30,373
because the killing
happened on the Friday,
185
00:09:30,373 --> 00:09:34,040
nobody knew about anything
until the Saturday morning.
186
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:35,993
My problem was going to be
187
00:09:36,013 --> 00:09:38,373
that we didn't publish
until the Monday.
188
00:09:39,003 --> 00:09:41,383
I talked to police
contacts during that time.
189
00:09:41,463 --> 00:09:43,310
One of the things
they told me was,
190
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,200
they had a suspect and
they were pretty sure
191
00:09:46,220 --> 00:09:47,973
they would get an early arrest.
192
00:09:48,293 --> 00:09:49,636
- My name's John Lucas.
193
00:09:49,656 --> 00:09:52,483
I'm a journalist with
National Newspapers
194
00:09:52,523 --> 00:09:54,550
and I wrote a book
about Patrick Mackay
195
00:09:54,580 --> 00:09:56,650
called, "Britain's
Forgotten Serial Killer."
196
00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,626
In May, 1973, Father
Crean met Patrick Mackay
197
00:10:00,696 --> 00:10:02,253
whilst walking
through woodlands,
198
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:03,887
near the village of Shorne.
199
00:10:03,887 --> 00:10:08,220
They got chatting in the woods
and retired to a local pub
200
00:10:08,220 --> 00:10:11,553
where they drank quite
a lot of alcohol.
201
00:10:11,553 --> 00:10:15,187
Mackay was used to spending
all of his money in pubs,
202
00:10:15,187 --> 00:10:16,953
winning the favor
of of other people,
203
00:10:16,953 --> 00:10:18,220
trying to make friends.
204
00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:21,153
On this occasion, Father
Crean bought the drinks.
205
00:10:21,153 --> 00:10:23,953
And it seemed to be a match
made in heaven for them both,
206
00:10:23,953 --> 00:10:25,247
at that time.
207
00:10:25,327 --> 00:10:28,487
It has to be said, Father
Crean was a heavy drinker.
208
00:10:28,487 --> 00:10:30,280
That is an explanation
for the friendship.
209
00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:32,487
They kind of bonded over
this love of alcohol.
210
00:10:32,487 --> 00:10:34,447
- Father Crean was
trying to sort of
211
00:10:34,477 --> 00:10:37,520
hold out a hand of
friendship to Patrick Mackay.
212
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,553
And he'd come to the
notice of the police
213
00:10:39,553 --> 00:10:42,853
because he stole a
cheque from Father Crean,
214
00:10:42,853 --> 00:10:44,820
it was a cheque for £30.
215
00:10:44,820 --> 00:10:47,553
- He crudely alters
it, to say £80
216
00:10:47,553 --> 00:10:49,487
and he goes and cashes
it in at a bank.
217
00:10:50,457 --> 00:10:53,223
Father Crean quickly realizes
the cheque's been taken,
218
00:10:53,263 --> 00:10:54,620
reports it to the police.
219
00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:56,693
It doesn't take the police
very long to figure out
220
00:10:56,743 --> 00:10:58,720
that it was Patrick
Mackay who took it.
221
00:10:58,720 --> 00:10:59,930
As soon as he's arrested,
222
00:11:00,030 --> 00:11:02,240
Father Crean asked if the
charges can be dropped,
223
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,583
Kent CID turn around and say,
224
00:11:04,613 --> 00:11:06,887
"No, we're gonna go ahead
with this prosecution."
225
00:11:06,887 --> 00:11:08,753
- He was only fined £10.
226
00:11:08,753 --> 00:11:11,420
It was insignificant in a way.
227
00:11:11,420 --> 00:11:14,023
But it just showed him that
he can't just do what he wants
228
00:11:14,063 --> 00:11:15,487
and get away with it.
229
00:11:15,487 --> 00:11:16,973
- Father Crean and Patrick
230
00:11:17,053 --> 00:11:19,887
do rekindle their friendship
for a short while.
231
00:11:19,887 --> 00:11:23,187
However, Mackay doesn't
pay any of the money back.
232
00:11:23,187 --> 00:11:24,593
Father Crean tells him,
233
00:11:24,613 --> 00:11:26,337
"I don't want anything
more to do with you."
234
00:11:26,387 --> 00:11:28,987
And he storms off in his car,
235
00:11:29,277 --> 00:11:32,230
leaving Patrick Mackay
in the rear window
236
00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,210
and he thinks that's the
last time he'll ever see him.
237
00:11:34,620 --> 00:11:36,520
[dramatic music]
238
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,683
- It was about 20 past three
in the morning of the 22nd
239
00:11:39,733 --> 00:11:42,987
and that cheque,
it was in my mind.
240
00:11:42,987 --> 00:11:45,853
And they say, you have a
hunch, I dunno if it's a hunch,
241
00:11:45,853 --> 00:11:49,287
I don't call it anything
other than I thought,
242
00:11:49,287 --> 00:11:51,387
I reckon Mackay's done this.
243
00:11:51,387 --> 00:11:53,787
So I call Bob Brown
and Mit Whitlock out,
244
00:11:53,787 --> 00:11:56,020
who dealt with
him for the check,
245
00:11:56,020 --> 00:11:59,687
and I said, sorry gents,
go and find Mackay.
246
00:11:59,687 --> 00:12:02,753
[dramatic music]
247
00:12:02,753 --> 00:12:04,320
- [Mackay Voiceover]
My life was wasted.
248
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,320
And I now realized that it
is now wasted forever to rot.
249
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,420
[dramatic music]
250
00:12:10,420 --> 00:12:12,603
Something terrible
had to come along
251
00:12:12,643 --> 00:12:15,240
in order to reveal
the decaying disaster
252
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,647
that my life has
been since 1962.
253
00:12:18,657 --> 00:12:21,553
[dramatic music]
254
00:12:21,553 --> 00:12:25,953
- Patrick David Mackay was
born on 25th of September, 1952
255
00:12:25,953 --> 00:12:29,153
to Marion and Harold Mackay.
256
00:12:29,153 --> 00:12:31,587
The family initially
lived in North London,
257
00:12:31,587 --> 00:12:34,720
they later moved to
Dartford in Kent.
258
00:12:35,153 --> 00:12:36,420
- I'm John Penycate,
259
00:12:36,420 --> 00:12:40,120
I'm the co-author of
the Life of Mackay,
260
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,653
the book was called,
"Psychopath."
261
00:12:42,653 --> 00:12:45,453
Mackay's childhood,
in many ways,
262
00:12:45,453 --> 00:12:47,520
explained what happened later.
263
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,887
It was a very violent household.
264
00:12:49,887 --> 00:12:53,917
His father had been in the
army, in the war, drank heavily
265
00:12:54,553 --> 00:12:58,153
and was very violent
towards his wife
266
00:12:58,153 --> 00:13:00,587
and to Patrick the little boy.
267
00:13:00,587 --> 00:13:03,687
- Although Harold was extremely
abusive towards Patrick,
268
00:13:03,687 --> 00:13:06,193
they did share a
really strange bond.
269
00:13:06,233 --> 00:13:08,287
One of the only times they
really bonded as father and son
270
00:13:08,287 --> 00:13:11,287
was when Harold would
sit Patrick on his knee
271
00:13:11,287 --> 00:13:15,120
and he'd talk about his
experiences during the war,
272
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,127
the gruesome things
that he had seen
273
00:13:17,157 --> 00:13:19,187
and experienced himself.
274
00:13:19,187 --> 00:13:20,920
And through this,
275
00:13:20,970 --> 00:13:26,480
Patrick developed a fascination
with death, war, conflict.
276
00:13:27,620 --> 00:13:30,953
- [Mackay Voiceover] My father
used to get violently drunk,
277
00:13:30,953 --> 00:13:34,787
shout, scream and always
when he was like this,
278
00:13:34,787 --> 00:13:39,420
beat me with the back of his
hand, sometimes his fist.
279
00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:42,453
He must have had a
tremendous drinking problem.
280
00:13:42,453 --> 00:13:45,123
But of course he
would never say so.
281
00:13:45,820 --> 00:13:48,293
I remember that my
father never at all
282
00:13:48,343 --> 00:13:52,720
hit my two sisters when drunk,
but only me and my mother.
283
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,787
He would make a lot of filthy
accusations towards her.
284
00:13:56,787 --> 00:13:58,143
This would take place,
285
00:13:58,163 --> 00:14:00,980
usually, Friday nights
and Saturday nights.
286
00:14:02,010 --> 00:14:03,643
It was plain, bloody regular.
287
00:14:05,180 --> 00:14:06,567
- My name's Laura Reilly.
288
00:14:06,657 --> 00:14:10,287
I'm a criminologist at
Birmingham City University.
289
00:14:10,287 --> 00:14:11,853
It's definitely
the perfect storm,
290
00:14:11,893 --> 00:14:14,873
if you wanted to create
someone who is psychopathic
291
00:14:14,903 --> 00:14:18,320
and you say, let's take
someone whose father has PTSD,
292
00:14:18,390 --> 00:14:20,913
let's make that father
engage in substance abuse
293
00:14:20,943 --> 00:14:22,087
and be an alcoholic,
294
00:14:22,087 --> 00:14:24,823
let's give him a difficult
relationship with his wife
295
00:14:24,843 --> 00:14:26,333
and make him a domestic abuser.
296
00:14:26,413 --> 00:14:28,227
Let's then have
him abuse his son
297
00:14:28,267 --> 00:14:30,253
and then let's also
put him in a time
298
00:14:30,253 --> 00:14:34,253
when there wasn't great safeguarding,
great understanding.
299
00:14:34,253 --> 00:14:37,657
In the 1970s, if you'd just
said psychopath to somebody,
300
00:14:37,697 --> 00:14:40,077
they probably would've
thought bad person
301
00:14:40,117 --> 00:14:41,437
who commits a violent crime.
302
00:14:41,477 --> 00:14:43,030
If said it to someone now,
303
00:14:43,130 --> 00:14:44,603
they might have some awareness
304
00:14:44,663 --> 00:14:46,950
of some of the other
traits someone might have,
305
00:14:47,010 --> 00:14:51,300
like parasitic lifestyle,
like criminal versatility,
306
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:53,453
committing more than
one type of offense
307
00:14:53,453 --> 00:14:56,520
and other sort of elements
that aren't actually criminal
308
00:14:56,570 --> 00:14:58,213
and can be really helpful,
309
00:14:58,243 --> 00:15:00,987
like having glib or
superficial charm.
310
00:15:00,987 --> 00:15:04,657
So, our understanding now
is very, very different
311
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,713
than if we were having this
conversation in the 1970s.
312
00:15:07,713 --> 00:15:09,646
[gentle music]
313
00:15:09,646 --> 00:15:12,046
- My name is Dr.
Vicky Thakordas-Desai.
314
00:15:12,046 --> 00:15:14,046
I'm a forensic psychologist
315
00:15:14,046 --> 00:15:16,280
and I specialize in
areas such as trauma,
316
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,410
mental health and
personality disorder.
317
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,046
[dramatic music]
318
00:15:21,046 --> 00:15:23,946
As a result of Mackay's
father's alcoholism,
319
00:15:23,946 --> 00:15:26,746
the family didn't have
the means to survive.
320
00:15:26,746 --> 00:15:28,946
That sort of low
socioeconomic status,
321
00:15:28,946 --> 00:15:30,546
that level of poverty,
322
00:15:30,546 --> 00:15:34,146
alongside the trauma
that he was experiencing,
323
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,746
really started to
set those foundations
324
00:15:37,746 --> 00:15:41,646
for the types of behavior
that we subsequently see.
325
00:15:41,646 --> 00:15:46,180
- In November, 1962, Harold
who's working as an accountant,
326
00:15:46,180 --> 00:15:48,246
leaves for work one morning.
327
00:15:48,246 --> 00:15:50,713
The last thing he
says to Patrick is,
328
00:15:50,713 --> 00:15:52,480
"Remember to be good."
329
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,613
Later that morning he drops
dead at the train station.
330
00:15:55,613 --> 00:15:58,746
[gentle music]
331
00:15:58,746 --> 00:16:00,280
Unfortunately for Patrick,
332
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,080
the way he hears about
his father's death
333
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,356
is from a neighbor,
334
00:16:04,416 --> 00:16:06,580
as he's just casually
walking home from school.
335
00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:08,446
It shocks him into
complete silence,
336
00:16:08,446 --> 00:16:11,180
he becomes incredibly withdrawn.
337
00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:12,713
And he seems never to be able
338
00:16:12,713 --> 00:16:14,880
to get to grips with
his father's death.
339
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,713
Outside of the family home,
he is a playground bully,
340
00:16:18,713 --> 00:16:20,880
he's a delinquent, a shoplifter
341
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,846
and he is engaging in lots of
petty crimes at this point.
342
00:16:25,213 --> 00:16:28,680
- In Mackay's case, his
offending massively escalates.
343
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,146
He does sort of sanitize
his previous offending
344
00:16:31,146 --> 00:16:32,630
when he discusses it
345
00:16:32,650 --> 00:16:34,880
and says that he was a bit
of a tearaway before then.
346
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,676
But actually it's only
after his father dies
347
00:16:36,706 --> 00:16:38,513
that he goes off the rails.
348
00:16:38,513 --> 00:16:41,346
[dramatic music]
349
00:16:44,346 --> 00:16:45,646
- [Mackay Voiceover]
In one way, his death
350
00:16:45,646 --> 00:16:48,280
was a relief to me, at the time.
351
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:49,626
But also on the other hand
352
00:16:49,636 --> 00:16:53,113
it was a natural loss of a
father who, like a lot of men,
353
00:16:53,113 --> 00:16:56,846
have their good sides as
well as their bad sides.
354
00:16:56,846 --> 00:16:59,480
[gentle music]
355
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,036
But it was also the year
356
00:17:01,066 --> 00:17:03,496
when I seemed to
change within myself
357
00:17:03,536 --> 00:17:05,580
to an extreme extent, all round.
358
00:17:05,580 --> 00:17:08,246
[gentle music]
359
00:17:09,380 --> 00:17:13,280
- The family moved
to Gravesend in 1967,
360
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,146
this is after Harold's death.
361
00:17:15,146 --> 00:17:16,593
Patrick would do things
362
00:17:16,633 --> 00:17:19,513
like he will sit in
his father's old seat.
363
00:17:19,513 --> 00:17:22,113
If anyone tries to sit
there, he will scream
364
00:17:22,113 --> 00:17:24,380
in a blood curdling rage,
365
00:17:24,380 --> 00:17:25,880
he'll throw himself on the floor
366
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:26,349
he'll throw himself on the floor
and almost appear to have a fit
367
00:17:26,349 --> 00:17:27,646
and almost appear to have a fit
368
00:17:27,646 --> 00:17:29,380
where he's frothing
at the mouth.
369
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,546
- He then took on the role
370
00:17:32,546 --> 00:17:35,646
of being the man of
the house, it seemed,
371
00:17:35,646 --> 00:17:39,080
and almost adopted
his father's behavior.
372
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,346
And that came out through
his violent attacks
373
00:17:42,346 --> 00:17:46,180
and abusive behavior towards
his mother, particularly,
374
00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:48,280
and subsequently his sisters.
375
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:49,513
[dramatic music]
376
00:17:49,513 --> 00:17:52,580
- Sometimes we find
that when children
377
00:17:52,580 --> 00:17:55,480
grow up in a house
with domestic abuse,
378
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,946
far from becoming protective
of the abused parent,
379
00:17:58,946 --> 00:18:00,263
usually the mother,
380
00:18:00,283 --> 00:18:03,046
they actually begin to
identify with the abuser.
381
00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:06,713
That might seem really
odd and counterintuitive,
382
00:18:06,713 --> 00:18:08,436
but you've gotta think about it
383
00:18:08,466 --> 00:18:10,096
in terms of the lesson
it's teaching you,
384
00:18:10,176 --> 00:18:11,333
the survival instinct.
385
00:18:11,363 --> 00:18:13,646
It is saying you have
two role models here,
386
00:18:13,646 --> 00:18:16,013
passive mom who is a victim
387
00:18:16,013 --> 00:18:19,980
and violent dad who is
obviously an abuser.
388
00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:22,233
Do you wanna be the
victim or do you wanna be
389
00:18:22,263 --> 00:18:23,746
the one who's victimizing?
390
00:18:23,746 --> 00:18:25,746
[dramatic music]
391
00:18:25,746 --> 00:18:28,363
- This is where Patrick
lived with his family.
392
00:18:28,403 --> 00:18:31,313
This was Frobisher
Way in Gravesend.
393
00:18:31,313 --> 00:18:35,146
The neighbors used to get quite
concerned about this house
394
00:18:35,146 --> 00:18:38,363
because as he was getting
more and more unruly,
395
00:18:38,393 --> 00:18:40,180
in the house, then the neighbors
396
00:18:40,180 --> 00:18:42,180
used to call social services.
397
00:18:42,180 --> 00:18:43,480
[gentle music]
398
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,280
- My name is Di Dooley.
399
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,246
I used to live next
door to Patrick Mackay
400
00:18:49,246 --> 00:18:51,746
and his mom and two sisters.
401
00:18:51,746 --> 00:18:53,680
Most of the neighbors
and the children,
402
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,346
they were in fear of him.
403
00:18:55,346 --> 00:18:58,713
My mom used to tell me
to keep away from him
404
00:18:58,713 --> 00:19:00,366
because of the way he was.
405
00:19:00,396 --> 00:19:01,843
He was very imposing.
406
00:19:01,883 --> 00:19:06,270
He was just like this
dark shadow in the street.
407
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,270
- I'm Pat Poulson,
live in Frobisher Way,
408
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,080
have done since '67.
409
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,393
For a while, next door but one,
410
00:19:14,433 --> 00:19:15,913
lived a family called Mackay.
411
00:19:16,173 --> 00:19:18,830
They pretty much kept
themselves to themselves
412
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:20,046
when they moved in.
413
00:19:20,046 --> 00:19:22,213
But then there was a
number of occasions
414
00:19:22,213 --> 00:19:25,413
when I'd look out of
the kitchen window
415
00:19:25,483 --> 00:19:27,433
or the landing
window and see one
416
00:19:27,473 --> 00:19:29,813
or both of the
girls lived there,
417
00:19:29,813 --> 00:19:32,313
sitting on the garage roof.
418
00:19:32,523 --> 00:19:35,750
And it soon came apparent
that they were up there
419
00:19:35,860 --> 00:19:38,053
to keep away from
their brother, Patrick.
420
00:19:39,313 --> 00:19:41,013
Try to be polite here,
421
00:19:41,013 --> 00:19:45,406
he was a slightly strange
looking young man, very skinny
422
00:19:49,046 --> 00:19:52,046
and he just had, there was
something about his face,
423
00:19:52,046 --> 00:19:53,650
his eyes in particular
424
00:19:53,690 --> 00:19:57,546
that just made you feel a
little uncomfortable about him.
425
00:19:57,546 --> 00:20:00,213
[gentle music]
426
00:20:01,213 --> 00:20:03,503
- My mom, you know, obviously,
427
00:20:03,543 --> 00:20:06,726
grew quite close with the
mom and the girls next door,
428
00:20:06,766 --> 00:20:09,976
so she was obviously
worried about them.
429
00:20:10,006 --> 00:20:13,933
So she used to
always say to them,
430
00:20:13,983 --> 00:20:16,846
"Look, you know, my back
door is always open,
431
00:20:16,846 --> 00:20:19,013
"the back gate's open."
432
00:20:19,013 --> 00:20:22,780
They knew it was their safe
place, somewhere for them to go.
433
00:20:22,780 --> 00:20:25,720
You just knew something
was going to happen.
434
00:20:25,770 --> 00:20:28,510
You could hear it early
on, hear it starting.
435
00:20:28,620 --> 00:20:30,856
It would just get
louder and louder.
436
00:20:30,906 --> 00:20:33,490
So my mom would always
be in the kitchen,
437
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:35,180
like at the window,
438
00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:38,713
I think, waiting
for them to come in.
439
00:20:38,713 --> 00:20:40,453
You could see
where he'd hit them
440
00:20:40,493 --> 00:20:42,413
and they had bruises
on their faces
441
00:20:42,413 --> 00:20:44,850
and their arms and everything,
442
00:20:44,890 --> 00:20:47,130
so you could see where
he'd attacked them.
443
00:20:48,246 --> 00:20:51,796
You could still hear him
smashing things up in the house.
444
00:20:51,886 --> 00:20:54,086
They just needed
to get out of there
445
00:20:54,156 --> 00:20:55,653
because of the way he was.
446
00:20:55,683 --> 00:20:57,646
Two or three
policemen would come
447
00:20:57,646 --> 00:21:00,560
and try and calm things down
448
00:21:00,610 --> 00:21:03,813
and they were never
able to calm it down.
449
00:21:03,813 --> 00:21:07,136
They would have to call
for more policemen to come.
450
00:21:07,216 --> 00:21:09,740
It would be like
eight, 10 policemen
451
00:21:09,790 --> 00:21:12,513
having to carry Patrick
out of the house,
452
00:21:12,513 --> 00:21:15,580
because he would be
screaming and fighting
453
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,613
that he wasn't going
to go anywhere.
454
00:21:17,613 --> 00:21:20,646
[dramatic music]
455
00:21:20,646 --> 00:21:24,213
- Patrick Mackay is a typical
psychopath at this point.
456
00:21:24,213 --> 00:21:28,440
He's experimenting
with inflicting pain
457
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,983
on defenseless creatures,
458
00:21:31,013 --> 00:21:32,880
so things that are more
vulnerable than him,
459
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,280
the pet cat, the dog,
460
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,613
he's seen by neighbors
killing birds in the garden
461
00:21:38,613 --> 00:21:41,646
and throwing them up in
the air as if they're toys.
462
00:21:41,646 --> 00:21:44,946
- He would catch birds and
pull the wings off them
463
00:21:44,946 --> 00:21:47,246
and then he set
fire to his tortoise
464
00:21:47,246 --> 00:21:49,290
in the back garden
there one day.
465
00:21:49,340 --> 00:21:50,846
Well, the neighbors naturally
466
00:21:50,846 --> 00:21:53,186
were quite alarmed
about all this.
467
00:21:53,246 --> 00:21:54,346
- Thinking back,
468
00:21:54,346 --> 00:21:56,756
maybe everything that
my mom had said to me,
469
00:21:56,806 --> 00:21:59,000
it turned out to
be true, didn't it?
470
00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:00,413
Turned out to be true,
471
00:22:01,313 --> 00:22:05,493
that he, you know, he
wasn't a nice person.
472
00:22:06,380 --> 00:22:08,593
- As a juvenile, he
was committing crimes
473
00:22:08,633 --> 00:22:10,043
all over the place.
474
00:22:10,203 --> 00:22:13,153
And although he used to live
at home with his mother,
475
00:22:13,183 --> 00:22:16,486
eventually when he'd
come into his mid-teens,
476
00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:18,060
he used to slope off anywhere.
477
00:22:18,090 --> 00:22:19,536
They didn't know where he was.
478
00:22:19,576 --> 00:22:21,953
His mother would never
let you know where he was.
479
00:22:21,993 --> 00:22:23,460
She used to say
he is a grown man.
480
00:22:23,490 --> 00:22:26,313
A grown man at
16, 17, he wasn't.
481
00:22:26,313 --> 00:22:29,846
[dramatic music]
482
00:22:29,846 --> 00:22:33,806
- These factors are very
much indicative of a really,
483
00:22:33,846 --> 00:22:37,846
sort of, dysfunctional
personality style emerging.
484
00:22:37,846 --> 00:22:40,430
But even at that age,
it would be hoped
485
00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:43,876
that he would have had and
received appropriate support
486
00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:47,060
and intervention to
change that trajectory.
487
00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:48,876
But that wasn't the
case for Mackay.
488
00:22:48,896 --> 00:22:50,456
He went on to continue.
489
00:22:50,486 --> 00:22:53,613
And those behaviors increased
in severity and intensity.
490
00:22:53,613 --> 00:22:57,370
Without appropriate
intervention at the right stages
491
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,720
and without the right support,
492
00:22:58,750 --> 00:23:00,586
he was moving along a trajectory
493
00:23:00,616 --> 00:23:03,010
that suggested that
he would and could
494
00:23:03,050 --> 00:23:04,746
become a serious
violent offender.
495
00:23:04,746 --> 00:23:06,880
[dramatic music]
496
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,903
- I suppose nowadays
that he would've been
497
00:23:09,943 --> 00:23:11,403
removed from his home.
498
00:23:11,413 --> 00:23:15,270
But at the time, his
mother always forgave him,
499
00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:17,070
always took him back.
500
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:20,023
And even right to
the end, she said
501
00:23:20,093 --> 00:23:22,183
that Patrick was not a monster,
502
00:23:22,243 --> 00:23:24,010
he was just a very
sick young man.
503
00:23:24,050 --> 00:23:25,280
[dramatic music]
504
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,550
- He often used to disappear
for periods on time,
505
00:23:27,580 --> 00:23:28,980
when it was nice and quiet.
506
00:23:29,070 --> 00:23:31,113
You wouldn't have known there
was anybody living there.
507
00:23:31,583 --> 00:23:32,953
But when he came home,
508
00:23:33,013 --> 00:23:34,630
all of the neighbors
soon got to the stage
509
00:23:34,660 --> 00:23:36,280
where you thought,
"Oh gosh, he's home.
510
00:23:36,670 --> 00:23:39,146
"Are we going to
have more problems?"
511
00:23:39,146 --> 00:23:42,080
I mean there was one
incident, in particular,
512
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,373
when we had a lot of
police presence up here
513
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,346
and they had ladders
outside the house
514
00:23:50,716 --> 00:23:53,146
up to the small bedroom window.
515
00:23:53,580 --> 00:23:56,753
And we learnt later that
Patrick was actually
516
00:23:56,793 --> 00:24:00,260
in the small bedroom and
had positioned himself
517
00:24:00,350 --> 00:24:04,263
between the end of
his bed and the door
518
00:24:04,353 --> 00:24:06,413
and had a bayonet positioned
519
00:24:06,603 --> 00:24:08,756
so that the handle
was against the door
520
00:24:08,796 --> 00:24:10,780
and the point was
against his stomach.
521
00:24:10,780 --> 00:24:14,610
And just telling it, you know,
"If you try and break in,
522
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,120
"you'll be responsible
for killing me."
523
00:24:18,486 --> 00:24:20,286
And the incident went
on for some time.
524
00:24:20,286 --> 00:24:22,216
I mean, the police came
round to the houses,
525
00:24:22,366 --> 00:24:24,920
asking us, "Definitely
don't let the children out
526
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,386
"and if possible, don't
go out of the house at all
527
00:24:27,386 --> 00:24:28,960
"until this is over."
528
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,726
And eventually they did get
into him and he was taken away.
529
00:24:33,856 --> 00:24:35,120
[dramatic music]
530
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:36,460
- My name's Dr. Harriet Garrod.
531
00:24:36,490 --> 00:24:38,620
I'm a consultant
counseling psychologist.
532
00:24:38,620 --> 00:24:42,386
I have been working in
forensic hospitals and prisons
533
00:24:42,386 --> 00:24:44,653
over the last 20 years.
534
00:24:44,653 --> 00:24:45,853
[dramatic music]
535
00:24:45,893 --> 00:24:50,786
Mackay had had very little
opportunity for support
536
00:24:51,106 --> 00:24:53,846
and there was very little
opportunity for help.
537
00:24:53,916 --> 00:24:58,973
Particularly in his
formative years, growing up,
538
00:24:59,023 --> 00:25:02,220
he is in and out of
psychiatric institutions
539
00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:05,786
on a regular basis
and reform schools
540
00:25:05,786 --> 00:25:09,086
and behavioral institutions.
541
00:25:09,086 --> 00:25:12,053
And what all of these
places have in common
542
00:25:12,053 --> 00:25:14,770
is that they're treating the
symptoms and not the cause.
543
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,120
So they're treating
the behavior,
544
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,286
but they're not asking why
the behavior is happening.
545
00:25:21,236 --> 00:25:23,953
Therefore, he doesn't get
the help that he needs
546
00:25:23,953 --> 00:25:26,753
and his behavior
continues to escalate
547
00:25:26,753 --> 00:25:29,020
as he continues
to hate the world,
548
00:25:29,020 --> 00:25:31,020
carrying his unresolved
trauma with him.
549
00:25:32,253 --> 00:25:34,320
- 26th of July, 1968,
550
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,653
Patrick attacks a 12-year-old
boy in the street,
551
00:25:37,653 --> 00:25:40,386
strangles him and
steals his watch.
552
00:25:40,386 --> 00:25:42,620
He later says that if
he could have done,
553
00:25:42,620 --> 00:25:43,953
he would've killed this boy.
554
00:25:43,953 --> 00:25:46,373
He's taken to
Astrid Remand Center
555
00:25:46,403 --> 00:25:48,420
where he is seen
by a psychiatrist.
556
00:25:48,420 --> 00:25:49,906
This is the first time
557
00:25:49,936 --> 00:25:52,940
anybody actually gives
a proper diagnosis
558
00:25:52,980 --> 00:25:55,786
of what could potentially be
going on in Mackay's head.
559
00:25:55,786 --> 00:25:58,720
He's found to have
an explosive temper
560
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,520
and it's predicted that
without intervention,
561
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,520
he'll go on to become a
cold, psychopathic killer.
562
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,953
[dramatic music]
563
00:26:06,953 --> 00:26:08,453
- That would not be something
564
00:26:08,453 --> 00:26:11,520
that most professionals would
feel comfortable doing now,
565
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,753
it would not be
common even back then.
566
00:26:13,753 --> 00:26:17,640
Normally, we don't diagnose
children with psychopathy
567
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,586
because it's seen as
something that you kind of,
568
00:26:19,586 --> 00:26:22,613
it's hard to, some of the
traits it's hard to define
569
00:26:22,653 --> 00:26:25,053
whether some of this is
something that you will,
570
00:26:25,053 --> 00:26:27,670
as a judgment said
to him, grow out of.
571
00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:30,413
Nowadays, if he was to be
diagnosed with anything,
572
00:26:30,443 --> 00:26:32,453
it would be more likely
to be conduct disorder,
573
00:26:32,453 --> 00:26:34,343
which is often seen
as a precursor.
574
00:26:34,393 --> 00:26:36,446
It's about rebelling
against authority,
575
00:26:36,496 --> 00:26:39,253
acting out in a way that is,
you know, very, very shocking.
576
00:26:39,253 --> 00:26:42,753
- It was a very experimental
time in psychiatry
577
00:26:42,753 --> 00:26:46,520
where people didn't really know
what to do with such people.
578
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,420
So there was a situation
where a lot of criminals
579
00:26:50,420 --> 00:26:53,820
and a lot of psychiatric
patients with criminal behaviors
580
00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:55,730
were essentially warehoused.
581
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:56,886
[dramatic music]
582
00:26:56,886 --> 00:26:59,053
- The sad fact was
583
00:26:59,053 --> 00:27:01,720
that he was a violent
disturbed character,
584
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,153
but without mental
illness symptoms.
585
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,886
And that the doctors
and psychiatrists,
586
00:27:08,886 --> 00:27:12,993
with whom he came into contact,
were forced to conclude
587
00:27:13,023 --> 00:27:14,753
there wasn't much they
could do about it.
588
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,920
Therefore, they wanted
him off their hands.
589
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,273
And he was released over
and over, prematurely,
590
00:27:21,886 --> 00:27:24,620
or shuffled from one
institution to another.
591
00:27:24,620 --> 00:27:25,730
[dramatic music]
592
00:27:25,770 --> 00:27:27,586
- Court leaves
treated him badly,
593
00:27:27,626 --> 00:27:29,520
I think they shut
him in cupboards.
594
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,886
He did take a few beatings,
there's no doubt about that,
595
00:27:32,886 --> 00:27:36,286
which didn't enhance his
kind of persona at all.
596
00:27:36,286 --> 00:27:39,796
Just made him worse, just
made him what he was, a bully.
597
00:27:39,836 --> 00:27:43,853
And even in the earlier days
when he was just over 15,
598
00:27:45,053 --> 00:27:49,353
Amy Tap, and she's
a WPC at Dartford,
599
00:27:49,353 --> 00:27:51,416
one day, couldn't get into him,
600
00:27:51,466 --> 00:27:54,953
took four men with a mattress
to get into the cell.
601
00:27:54,953 --> 00:27:57,020
And Amy wrote that day,
602
00:27:57,020 --> 00:28:01,020
"This person will kill
before he is much older."
603
00:28:02,286 --> 00:28:04,120
- He was in Moss Side.
604
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:06,586
The Mental Health Review Board,
605
00:28:06,586 --> 00:28:10,020
at the urging of
Mackay's mother,
606
00:28:10,020 --> 00:28:12,946
twice let him out
607
00:28:13,753 --> 00:28:16,853
because of his plausibility,
his articulacy,
608
00:28:16,853 --> 00:28:18,993
his seeming normality.
609
00:28:19,786 --> 00:28:22,286
But that's the
key word, seeming.
610
00:28:22,286 --> 00:28:24,420
A psychopath is not normal.
611
00:28:24,420 --> 00:28:25,953
[dramatic music]
612
00:28:25,953 --> 00:28:27,243
- [Mackay Voiceover]
In Moss Side,
613
00:28:27,273 --> 00:28:30,920
I was classified as a
psychopath, but without mania.
614
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,820
I have always believed that
I have not just a problem
615
00:28:33,850 --> 00:28:36,320
of being psychopathic
on its own,
616
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,220
but instead having
psychopathic mania.
617
00:28:39,220 --> 00:28:42,286
This has always been my
personal opinion on the matter
618
00:28:42,286 --> 00:28:45,543
and believed no one to
judge one's mind better,
619
00:28:45,603 --> 00:28:47,986
in most cases, than oneself,
620
00:28:47,986 --> 00:28:51,026
since the mind is such
a complex machine.
621
00:28:52,253 --> 00:28:55,806
- What should have happened,
and probably would nowadays,
622
00:28:55,846 --> 00:28:58,886
would be, he'd have been
picked up much earlier
623
00:28:58,886 --> 00:29:00,596
as being a problem,
you could see
624
00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:03,420
what sort of danger he
might pose in the future
625
00:29:03,420 --> 00:29:05,083
and be dealt with.
626
00:29:05,123 --> 00:29:09,506
And he never was. He went inside, he then
went outside again,
627
00:29:09,576 --> 00:29:12,220
carried on committing
crime, back inside again.
628
00:29:12,220 --> 00:29:16,026
Nobody ever seemed to actually
understand the enormity
629
00:29:16,056 --> 00:29:17,886
of what they were dealing with
630
00:29:17,886 --> 00:29:20,230
and try and keep him
where he should have been,
631
00:29:20,260 --> 00:29:22,020
which was in a
secure mental unit.
632
00:29:22,020 --> 00:29:24,486
[dramatic music]
633
00:29:24,486 --> 00:29:26,673
- [Mackay Voiceover] When I
was eventually discharged,
634
00:29:26,693 --> 00:29:29,416
I can say that despite
the sudden step
635
00:29:29,456 --> 00:29:31,953
to the outside
community as a whole,
636
00:29:31,953 --> 00:29:35,153
I had at the time only
the best intentions
637
00:29:35,173 --> 00:29:37,220
in the living of my life.
638
00:29:37,610 --> 00:29:40,580
But one cannot
unfortunately always foresee
639
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,630
the certain type of stigmas
that can form and come to be
640
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,583
for some people in such an
imperfect world as this.
641
00:29:49,686 --> 00:29:53,886
- He understood himself, he was
the personification of evil.
642
00:29:53,886 --> 00:29:56,346
The big film at the time
that was going around
643
00:29:56,366 --> 00:29:57,490
was, "The Exorcist."
644
00:29:57,530 --> 00:29:59,393
And he absolutely
loved that film.
645
00:29:59,443 --> 00:30:01,320
He became obsessed
with that film.
646
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,186
He collected Nazi memorabilia,
he worshiped Hitler.
647
00:30:05,186 --> 00:30:07,653
And when he talked about Hitler,
648
00:30:07,653 --> 00:30:10,153
he tried to speak
in a German accent.
649
00:30:10,153 --> 00:30:11,620
[dramatic music]
650
00:30:11,620 --> 00:30:17,410
- Mackay had a twisted
devotion towards Nazi ideology.
651
00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:22,420
It seemed, in a bizarre
way, that he found something
652
00:30:22,460 --> 00:30:27,270
that he could form a sense of
belonging and identity with,
653
00:30:27,813 --> 00:30:30,930
and it served to
really reinforce
654
00:30:30,970 --> 00:30:35,620
some really quite extremist
and dark views that he held.
655
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,516
- Mackay went so far
as to fashion himself,
656
00:30:39,546 --> 00:30:42,710
a homemade Nazi
uniform with a armband
657
00:30:42,740 --> 00:30:44,853
and he would wear jack boots.
658
00:30:45,203 --> 00:30:49,226
And on occasion he would goose-step
outside in the street.
659
00:30:49,306 --> 00:30:54,843
He also had a huge wooden
eagle and Swastika,
660
00:30:55,076 --> 00:30:57,073
which I've no idea
where he would've
661
00:30:57,093 --> 00:30:58,353
acquired something like that,
662
00:30:58,353 --> 00:31:00,286
which he kept in his bedroom.
663
00:31:00,636 --> 00:31:02,630
It was a shrine to the Nazis.
664
00:31:03,553 --> 00:31:05,956
At one point he'd come up
with a new name for himself,
665
00:31:05,986 --> 00:31:08,720
which was Franklin
Bollvolt the First.
666
00:31:09,060 --> 00:31:10,643
And he thought that
this was a name
667
00:31:10,673 --> 00:31:12,410
that would ring
out like Hitler's,
668
00:31:12,430 --> 00:31:14,386
it would unite the world
under his leadership.
669
00:31:14,386 --> 00:31:16,760
And the thing that he
always boasted about
670
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,330
was that if he was in charge,
671
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:20,913
he would kill all the
useless old people.
672
00:31:21,853 --> 00:31:24,820
- But he brought
into a belief system
673
00:31:24,820 --> 00:31:29,386
that was predominantly about
a supreme race of people
674
00:31:29,386 --> 00:31:33,586
and this idea that other
people could be eliminated.
675
00:31:33,586 --> 00:31:35,620
[speaks in foreign language]
676
00:31:35,620 --> 00:31:39,186
- He was starting to really
take on this ideology
677
00:31:39,186 --> 00:31:42,410
and think about how he
could make it his own.
678
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,860
And that appeared to excite him
679
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,113
and gave him a sense
of purpose, in a way.
680
00:31:49,453 --> 00:31:51,526
- He's very angry
with the world,
681
00:31:51,546 --> 00:31:54,626
he has many, many
unresolved issues
682
00:31:54,676 --> 00:31:56,916
related to his own traumas.
683
00:31:56,976 --> 00:31:59,773
And when he sees others,
he perceives them
684
00:31:59,823 --> 00:32:01,486
to have what he does not have
685
00:32:01,926 --> 00:32:04,100
and therefore he
seeks to destroy that.
686
00:32:04,420 --> 00:32:07,186
[dramatic music]
687
00:32:07,186 --> 00:32:10,330
- By the age of 21,
Mackay had racked up
688
00:32:10,410 --> 00:32:12,843
at least a dozen convictions
for various offenses
689
00:32:12,883 --> 00:32:16,220
ranging from petty theft
to assault, burglary,
690
00:32:16,270 --> 00:32:17,706
possession of offensive weapon.
691
00:32:17,766 --> 00:32:19,973
Things just seemed to be
getting worse and worse.
692
00:32:20,043 --> 00:32:21,156
And as he got older,
693
00:32:21,176 --> 00:32:23,420
the seriousness of his
convictions just increased.
694
00:32:23,420 --> 00:32:25,286
[dramatic music]
695
00:32:25,286 --> 00:32:27,980
- We didn't get police
cars down this road,
696
00:32:28,130 --> 00:32:30,563
so once they started
to sort of come up
697
00:32:30,593 --> 00:32:34,363
and park outside Mackay's house,
on a fairly regular basis,
698
00:32:34,393 --> 00:32:38,090
you would just sort
of be wondering,
699
00:32:38,130 --> 00:32:39,686
"What's he done this time?
700
00:32:40,166 --> 00:32:41,916
"Is he going away?"
701
00:32:43,620 --> 00:32:46,186
Your mind works
overtime, doesn't it,
702
00:32:46,216 --> 00:32:47,666
in those sort of situations.
703
00:32:48,553 --> 00:32:52,450
But say, none of us
imagined in our worst dreams
704
00:32:52,490 --> 00:32:54,153
that he was capable of murder.
705
00:32:54,153 --> 00:32:56,200
- [Reporter] The house stands
at the edge of the village.
706
00:32:56,220 --> 00:32:57,870
And at night there
was no one around
707
00:32:57,900 --> 00:32:59,786
to see or hear the murder.
708
00:32:59,786 --> 00:33:04,590
- By then we'd started
inquiries with Marion, the mom,
709
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,720
and she told us
all kinds of lies.
710
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,510
She told us she hadn't seen him,
711
00:33:08,550 --> 00:33:10,286
he hadn't been to the place.
712
00:33:10,326 --> 00:33:13,693
We did find a
number of neighbors
713
00:33:13,753 --> 00:33:17,976
that had actually seen
Mackay come out of the house
714
00:33:18,026 --> 00:33:19,953
and walked toward Shorne.
715
00:33:19,953 --> 00:33:24,786
So it was a fallacy for Marion
to say he'd never been there.
716
00:33:24,786 --> 00:33:29,486
Pat Poulson, a near neighbor,
she witnessed the whole thing.
717
00:33:29,486 --> 00:33:33,316
- I glanced out the window
and saw Patrick walk past.
718
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,160
As we did every time
we saw him thought,
719
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:36,890
"Oh, what's gonna
happen this time?"
720
00:33:37,610 --> 00:33:40,117
Even though he was walking
away from the house,
721
00:33:40,197 --> 00:33:41,660
that didn't mean he
wouldn't come back.
722
00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:44,350
[car engine revving]
Lo and behold, the next day,
723
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,930
there was quite a large
police presence in the street,
724
00:33:48,050 --> 00:33:50,164
knocking on everybody's doors.
725
00:33:50,314 --> 00:33:52,304
And when they knocked
on mine, they just,
726
00:33:52,364 --> 00:33:54,714
they gave a
description of someone
727
00:33:55,024 --> 00:33:56,560
and asked if I'd seen anyone
728
00:33:56,610 --> 00:33:58,860
answering that
description recently.
729
00:33:59,860 --> 00:34:01,424
And straight away I said,
730
00:34:01,474 --> 00:34:04,464
"Well, that description
fits Patrick Mackay
731
00:34:04,504 --> 00:34:05,820
"from next door, but one.
732
00:34:06,460 --> 00:34:08,894
"And yeah, I saw him yesterday."
733
00:34:10,827 --> 00:34:13,894
So they immediately said,
"That's very interesting.
734
00:34:13,894 --> 00:34:15,234
"We'll make a note of it.
735
00:34:15,264 --> 00:34:19,127
"A senior police officer
will be round later "to interview you."
736
00:34:21,027 --> 00:34:23,077
And then that's
when we found out
737
00:34:23,127 --> 00:34:26,860
that he was suspected
of of murder.
738
00:34:26,860 --> 00:34:29,394
[dramatic music]
739
00:34:29,394 --> 00:34:32,027
- When Brown and
Whitlock left us,
740
00:34:32,027 --> 00:34:37,027
they soon established that
he had digs in North London,
741
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:38,694
on Great North Road.
742
00:34:39,884 --> 00:34:44,360
They went to there and confronted the
bloke called Brian,
743
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,127
who run a hostel really,
as opposed to digs.
744
00:34:47,127 --> 00:34:49,060
Whilst they were there,
745
00:34:49,060 --> 00:34:54,027
Mackay actually rang
the hostel owner, Brian.
746
00:34:54,027 --> 00:34:57,460
Brown and Whitlock were
aware it was Mackay
747
00:34:57,460 --> 00:35:02,394
and just whispered to Brian,
"Don't say we're here,
748
00:35:03,260 --> 00:35:05,260
"just see where he is though."
749
00:35:05,260 --> 00:35:07,064
But Mackay got the wind of it.
750
00:35:07,084 --> 00:35:10,560
He just realized that
something was amiss.
751
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,194
And the only clue they
had where he could be
752
00:35:13,194 --> 00:35:16,760
was that he went with
a lad called Cowdrey,
753
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,460
and that was one of
his best friends.
754
00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:22,827
- Mackay was hanging
out on some waste ground
755
00:35:22,827 --> 00:35:24,150
in South London,
756
00:35:24,220 --> 00:35:28,194
and he met a couple of young
boys, the Cowdrey brothers.
757
00:35:28,194 --> 00:35:30,927
This friendship
developed somehow.
758
00:35:30,927 --> 00:35:33,000
Mackay was invited to spend time
759
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:35,860
at the Cowdrey
house in Stockwell.
760
00:35:35,860 --> 00:35:39,460
The parents of the family,
Bert and Vi Cowdrey,
761
00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:41,827
who Mackay began
calling mom and dad.
762
00:35:41,827 --> 00:35:43,260
[gentle music]
763
00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:46,294
- Brown and Whitlock
went and knocked the door
764
00:35:46,294 --> 00:35:49,570
of the first Cowdrey
family that they found,
765
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,134
Mackay was standing
in the doorway.
766
00:35:53,227 --> 00:35:55,810
He was actually
standing in the hallway.
767
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,384
So, of course they knew him
well and they grabbed him
768
00:36:00,414 --> 00:36:03,660
and I think they took him back
to the local police station.
769
00:36:03,660 --> 00:36:06,024
But even on the way back
to the police station,
770
00:36:06,054 --> 00:36:09,094
they'd cautioned him and
he had coughed the job.
771
00:36:09,094 --> 00:36:11,227
Mackay had admitted the murder.
772
00:36:11,227 --> 00:36:14,260
[dramatic music]
773
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,760
When we got him back into Kent,
774
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,230
this was taken at
Northfleet Police Station.
775
00:36:19,260 --> 00:36:21,927
And I did know him
as a younger boy,
776
00:36:21,927 --> 00:36:23,764
but this is how I remembered him
777
00:36:23,804 --> 00:36:26,527
when he first come into
custody for the Crean murder.
778
00:36:26,527 --> 00:36:30,327
I'll never forget that face,
I'll never forget that picture
779
00:36:30,327 --> 00:36:33,494
because to me that was Patrick.
780
00:36:33,494 --> 00:36:36,860
Might not know him now,
but that was Patrick then,
781
00:36:36,860 --> 00:36:39,294
you know, could go
wild in the eyes.
782
00:36:39,294 --> 00:36:42,127
[dramatic music]
783
00:36:46,427 --> 00:36:47,814
- [Mackay Voiceover]
I went to Gravesend
784
00:36:47,864 --> 00:36:50,860
by train last Friday afternoon,
785
00:36:50,860 --> 00:36:54,994
21st of March, 1975.
786
00:36:54,994 --> 00:36:57,460
I won a chicken in a
raffle and took it home
787
00:36:57,460 --> 00:36:59,527
for my mother to cook for me.
788
00:36:59,527 --> 00:37:02,194
- That was not true
and he admitted later,
789
00:37:02,194 --> 00:37:03,994
in an ancillary statement,
790
00:37:03,994 --> 00:37:06,860
that he had stolen it
from a local store.
791
00:37:06,860 --> 00:37:08,427
- [Mackay Voiceover] I
talked with my mother,
792
00:37:08,507 --> 00:37:12,294
but I was only at home
for about 15 minutes.
793
00:37:12,294 --> 00:37:14,517
I'm not at all sure
about the times,
794
00:37:14,567 --> 00:37:18,827
but I left the house
about half past four.
795
00:37:18,827 --> 00:37:21,994
I walked to Father
Crean's house at Shorne.
796
00:37:21,994 --> 00:37:24,460
From my own house, I
went along Thong Lane
797
00:37:24,460 --> 00:37:28,127
to a country lane that
branches off from Thong Lane.
798
00:37:28,127 --> 00:37:31,660
I walked all along that lane
past the school at Shorne,
799
00:37:31,660 --> 00:37:35,627
through Shorne Village,
past the Rose and Crown
800
00:37:35,627 --> 00:37:37,260
to Father Crean's house.
801
00:37:37,260 --> 00:37:38,927
[dramatic music]
802
00:37:38,927 --> 00:37:42,127
- This is the dangerous
part about him.
803
00:37:42,127 --> 00:37:44,160
Patrick could be quite affable.
804
00:37:45,327 --> 00:37:46,827
Actually, I'm gonna
say something now,
805
00:37:46,827 --> 00:37:48,594
I never thought I'd say to you,
806
00:37:48,594 --> 00:37:50,270
he could be quite likable.
807
00:37:50,820 --> 00:37:54,960
Patrick could be calm,
Patrick could be pleasant,
808
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,727
Patrick got upset,
Patrick became aggressive.
809
00:37:58,727 --> 00:37:59,960
[dramatic music]
810
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:01,160
- [Mackay Voiceover]
When I got there,
811
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,127
I saw the front door
was just slightly ajar,
812
00:38:04,157 --> 00:38:06,560
just enough to put a finger in.
813
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,430
I saw his car there
and I saw smoke
814
00:38:09,470 --> 00:38:11,894
from a bonfire in the
back of the house,
815
00:38:11,894 --> 00:38:14,360
so I knew that
Father Crean was in.
816
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,550
I pushed the door open and a
little dog brushed past my leg
817
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,277
and ran out of the door.
818
00:38:20,794 --> 00:38:22,970
I went into the
hall of the house
819
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,677
and called Mr.
Crean, are you there?
820
00:38:27,137 --> 00:38:28,590
There was no reply.
821
00:38:28,670 --> 00:38:29,960
[dramatic music]
822
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,990
After about five minutes,
I heard the front door open
823
00:38:34,020 --> 00:38:36,760
and then saw Mr. Crean
come into the hall.
824
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,960
He didn't seem to see me.
825
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,460
I walked up to him.
826
00:38:40,460 --> 00:38:44,060
And when I was about an
arm's length away, I said,
827
00:38:44,060 --> 00:38:47,727
"Mr. Crean, it's
me, Patrick Mackay."
828
00:38:47,727 --> 00:38:49,527
He had his back to me.
829
00:38:49,527 --> 00:38:53,660
He turned around and
he shouted, "Oh God,
830
00:38:53,660 --> 00:38:56,600
"I wasn't expecting
to see you here."
831
00:38:58,127 --> 00:39:02,227
- I think on the first approach,
832
00:39:02,227 --> 00:39:07,227
Crean was worried sick to see
him there at his premises.
833
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:09,394
When he got worried
834
00:39:09,394 --> 00:39:11,927
and when he started
getting agitated himself,
835
00:39:11,927 --> 00:39:16,094
Crean, Father Crean,
Mackay got agitated.
836
00:39:16,094 --> 00:39:18,627
And as Mackay got more agitated,
837
00:39:18,627 --> 00:39:21,427
then of course things
went totally wrong.
838
00:39:21,427 --> 00:39:22,747
[dramatic music]
839
00:39:22,787 --> 00:39:25,354
- [Mackay Voiceover] I said,
I've come to talk things over
840
00:39:25,404 --> 00:39:27,494
about the money I owe you.
841
00:39:27,494 --> 00:39:29,344
He seemed to panic a bit
842
00:39:29,394 --> 00:39:31,727
and started to run
out of the house.
843
00:39:31,727 --> 00:39:34,594
This seemed to upset me a bit.
844
00:39:34,594 --> 00:39:37,507
- And by then there was
a struggle taking place
845
00:39:37,557 --> 00:39:39,314
between him and Mackay.
846
00:39:39,334 --> 00:39:41,034
But you can just
see the door post,
847
00:39:41,074 --> 00:39:42,727
on the right hand
side of this picture.
848
00:39:42,727 --> 00:39:45,084
And he pushed him
through the door there,
849
00:39:45,154 --> 00:39:49,680
which then propelled the vicar
into the bath straight away,
850
00:39:49,710 --> 00:39:50,907
into a dry bath.
851
00:39:50,967 --> 00:39:53,250
Father Crean was
never gonna win that.
852
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:55,960
Mackay had the strength
of probably six men
853
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,860
when he really got worked up.
854
00:39:57,860 --> 00:40:01,020
And on this occasion,
I would suspect
855
00:40:01,070 --> 00:40:03,460
that's exactly what
happened to Crean.
856
00:40:03,460 --> 00:40:06,394
- [Mackay Voiceover] He then
started to annoy me even more
857
00:40:06,394 --> 00:40:09,650
and I kept striking at
his nose with my arm
858
00:40:09,700 --> 00:40:11,560
and the side of my hand.
859
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,697
I then pulled out my
knife from my coat pocket
860
00:40:14,727 --> 00:40:17,460
and repeatedly plunged
it into his neck.
861
00:40:17,460 --> 00:40:19,894
I then got a little
more excitable
862
00:40:19,894 --> 00:40:22,794
and stuck it into
the side of his head
863
00:40:22,794 --> 00:40:26,460
and then tried to plunge it
into the top of his head.
864
00:40:26,460 --> 00:40:28,694
This bent the knife.
865
00:40:28,694 --> 00:40:30,444
- And this was a dagger.
866
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:32,764
You've got to do something
867
00:40:32,784 --> 00:40:34,827
to bend a dagger in
half in someone's skull.
868
00:40:34,827 --> 00:40:36,727
[dramatic music]
869
00:40:36,727 --> 00:40:37,727
- [Mackay Voiceover] He had been
870
00:40:37,747 --> 00:40:40,027
in the sitting up
position with the knife,
871
00:40:40,027 --> 00:40:42,814
but when I first
hit him with the ax,
872
00:40:42,874 --> 00:40:44,887
he sank down into the bath.
873
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,084
I then repeatedly got
increasingly more annoyed
874
00:40:49,134 --> 00:40:51,827
and lashed at him with the ax.
875
00:40:51,827 --> 00:40:55,224
All this seemed to
happen very fast.
876
00:40:56,294 --> 00:41:00,034
- Every strike he delivers,
and as the blood flows more,
877
00:41:00,064 --> 00:41:02,704
Mackay becomes more
and more excited.
878
00:41:02,774 --> 00:41:07,000
He is engaged in what is
called thrill-seeking behavior,
879
00:41:07,050 --> 00:41:09,494
which is a typical
trait of psychopathy.
880
00:41:09,494 --> 00:41:11,867
Psychopaths seek thrills.
881
00:41:11,907 --> 00:41:13,830
And as they seek more thrills,
882
00:41:13,860 --> 00:41:15,660
the thrills become more extreme.
883
00:41:15,660 --> 00:41:17,127
[dramatic music]
884
00:41:17,127 --> 00:41:19,094
- [Mackay Voiceover] I
threw the ax to the floor,
885
00:41:19,094 --> 00:41:21,537
ripped the plug
from the wash basin
886
00:41:21,577 --> 00:41:25,894
and rammed it into the bath,
then turned on the taps.
887
00:41:25,894 --> 00:41:28,500
- He said, "There was
nothing more lovely
888
00:41:28,540 --> 00:41:32,344
"than dunking him up and down
in the water in that bath,
889
00:41:32,404 --> 00:41:35,580
"still in his top coat,
in his wellingtons,
890
00:41:35,620 --> 00:41:37,240
"dressed as he would
be if he went out
891
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:38,504
"for a walk with the dog."
892
00:41:38,554 --> 00:41:41,927
Mackay thought that was
quite a wonderful scene.
893
00:41:42,017 --> 00:41:44,727
[dramatic music]
894
00:41:44,727 --> 00:41:48,780
- This was the act of a
seriously crazy killer.
895
00:41:49,860 --> 00:41:53,460
But chopping somebody up
with an ax, blood everywhere,
896
00:41:53,460 --> 00:41:57,760
sticking him in the
bath, running the tap,
897
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,394
sitting there
watching the man die,
898
00:42:01,394 --> 00:42:06,824
this was the extremity
of Mackay's psychopathy.
899
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,767
This was the most
horrible of crimes.
900
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,064
- [Mackay Voiceover] Then
I stayed in the bathroom
901
00:42:13,104 --> 00:42:14,600
for about an hour.
902
00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:17,190
I was just watching him sinking
903
00:42:17,230 --> 00:42:18,857
and floating about in the bath.
904
00:42:19,627 --> 00:42:21,194
And I then walked
out of the house
905
00:42:21,194 --> 00:42:23,677
and walked around to
the back of his house
906
00:42:23,707 --> 00:42:26,697
picking up bits and pieces
of cinders from the fire
907
00:42:26,747 --> 00:42:30,674
and bits of soil, just mucking
about, doodling in a sense.
908
00:42:31,594 --> 00:42:35,077
Then I went back in the
house and into the bathroom
909
00:42:35,147 --> 00:42:38,260
and stayed there for about
a quarter of an hour.
910
00:42:38,260 --> 00:42:41,387
I then thought of the
chicken at my mother's home
911
00:42:41,507 --> 00:42:43,850
and walked out of
his house altogether.
912
00:42:46,780 --> 00:42:47,977
- We were about to go
913
00:42:48,017 --> 00:42:51,194
to a local magistrate's
court on remands.
914
00:42:51,194 --> 00:42:56,440
He heard that his mother
would be in court to see him,
915
00:42:57,327 --> 00:43:00,284
and I could see he
was getting more wild
916
00:43:00,304 --> 00:43:02,794
about his mom's
appearance at court
917
00:43:03,264 --> 00:43:05,620
and more aggravated about it.
918
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:07,860
And then he said, "Would
you do my shoes up?"
919
00:43:07,980 --> 00:43:09,950
When you look at the
eyes of a killer,
920
00:43:10,010 --> 00:43:11,837
look at them and you'll know
921
00:43:11,877 --> 00:43:13,730
you're looking at
the eyes of a killer.
922
00:43:13,780 --> 00:43:16,827
And when Patrick looked at
me, I was quite concerned.
923
00:43:16,827 --> 00:43:19,194
And I looked at his
eyes and I said,
924
00:43:19,724 --> 00:43:21,494
do your own fucking shoes up.
925
00:43:21,574 --> 00:43:22,850
[dramatic music]
926
00:43:22,940 --> 00:43:24,560
- [Mackay Voiceover] The
only thing I want to add
927
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,340
is it didn't seem to trouble
me too much, what I had done,
928
00:43:29,370 --> 00:43:31,194
on hearing it in the paper.
929
00:43:31,664 --> 00:43:34,997
- As a crime reporter, a
murder is your top crime,
930
00:43:35,037 --> 00:43:38,397
of course, I was excited,
it was a fascinating murder.
931
00:43:38,437 --> 00:43:39,524
The restrictions at the time
932
00:43:39,564 --> 00:43:41,194
were even greater
than they are now.
933
00:43:41,194 --> 00:43:44,044
So broadly once he was charged,
934
00:43:44,074 --> 00:43:47,797
you can't use any
details in the newspaper
935
00:43:47,927 --> 00:43:49,607
about what has happened.
936
00:43:49,657 --> 00:43:53,794
So apart from saying name, age,
address, that kind of thing,
937
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,313
there was very
little you could do.
938
00:43:55,313 --> 00:43:57,713
So for the next few
months after that,
939
00:43:57,713 --> 00:44:00,513
I could say almost nothing
about what had happened.
940
00:44:00,513 --> 00:44:02,013
But then it did
give you a chance
941
00:44:02,013 --> 00:44:03,713
to actually investigate
the whole thing properly.
942
00:44:03,713 --> 00:44:06,646
So the next few months
was spent largely
943
00:44:06,646 --> 00:44:08,546
on looking at the various things
944
00:44:08,546 --> 00:44:10,546
that Patrick Mackay had done,
945
00:44:10,546 --> 00:44:13,146
trying to piece
together his life
946
00:44:13,146 --> 00:44:16,680
and also piecing together the
various crimes he'd committed
947
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,513
over the previous few years.
948
00:44:18,513 --> 00:44:21,246
Excitement turned
into some dread
949
00:44:21,296 --> 00:44:22,913
about what I might
find out next.
950
00:44:22,913 --> 00:44:28,553
And the more I delved into
the personality of Patrick,
951
00:44:29,046 --> 00:44:32,113
the more I found that
really disturbing.
952
00:44:32,113 --> 00:44:34,946
[dramatic music]
953
00:44:37,013 --> 00:44:38,613
- My name is David Crinnion.
954
00:44:38,613 --> 00:44:42,073
In 1975, I was a
Detective Constable
955
00:44:42,093 --> 00:44:43,580
at Gerald Road Police Station,
956
00:44:43,580 --> 00:44:47,746
dealing with all the day-to-day
crimes that were reported,
957
00:44:47,746 --> 00:44:50,346
burglaries, assaults, robberies.
958
00:44:50,346 --> 00:44:53,146
Gerald Road Division
was basically Belgravia,
959
00:44:53,146 --> 00:44:55,313
parts of Victoria
and Victoria Station
960
00:44:55,313 --> 00:44:57,313
creeping across towards Chelsea.
961
00:44:57,313 --> 00:45:00,380
A very high net worth
area, generally speaking.
962
00:45:00,380 --> 00:45:04,080
Female victims were being
attacked on the street.
963
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:05,346
And also the subject
964
00:45:05,346 --> 00:45:07,083
of what are known as
artifice burglaries,
965
00:45:07,113 --> 00:45:10,846
whereby people talk their
way into people's houses,
966
00:45:10,846 --> 00:45:12,860
either by saying, oh,
they've heard a noise,
967
00:45:12,890 --> 00:45:14,986
or they've seen water running,
968
00:45:15,076 --> 00:45:17,980
or sometimes just
by basic threats.
969
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,246
Once in there they steal
what they can and leave.
970
00:45:22,246 --> 00:45:24,413
And they weren't just
happening at Gerald Road,
971
00:45:24,413 --> 00:45:25,936
they were happening
at Rochester Road,
972
00:45:25,966 --> 00:45:27,513
which was the adjacent division,
973
00:45:27,513 --> 00:45:29,213
they were happening in Chelsea,
974
00:45:29,213 --> 00:45:30,646
they were happening in Fulham,
975
00:45:30,646 --> 00:45:33,180
they were happening
all over the place.
976
00:45:33,180 --> 00:45:35,810
- I'm Dr. Nell Darby and
I'm a crime historian
977
00:45:35,830 --> 00:45:39,110
specializing in looking
at crime reportage.
978
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,136
When you think of the 1970s,
979
00:45:41,176 --> 00:45:43,816
you do think about kind
of economic struggles,
980
00:45:43,836 --> 00:45:46,926
political crises,
three day week.
981
00:45:46,986 --> 00:45:49,476
There's problems in terms
of high unemployment
982
00:45:49,536 --> 00:45:52,986
and thus political
dissatisfaction, alienation,
983
00:45:53,006 --> 00:45:54,080
that kind of thing.
984
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:55,540
When you've got
high unemployment,
985
00:45:55,590 --> 00:45:57,473
you've got poverty
related issues.
986
00:45:57,513 --> 00:45:59,900
So if you are struggling
to feed your family
987
00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:03,110
to maintain a household,
it's more likely then
988
00:46:03,150 --> 00:46:04,760
that you are going to
commit petty crime,
989
00:46:04,780 --> 00:46:06,166
just to kind of get by.
990
00:46:07,036 --> 00:46:09,780
- Well, you have to understand
that London's a big place,
991
00:46:09,780 --> 00:46:12,246
eight, 10, 12 million
people living there.
992
00:46:12,246 --> 00:46:13,946
A lot of people moving about.
993
00:46:13,946 --> 00:46:16,626
It's 50 years ago that
we're talking about now.
994
00:46:16,716 --> 00:46:19,380
There wasn't the CCTV
that there is now.
995
00:46:19,380 --> 00:46:22,353
There weren't the other
methods of identification.
996
00:46:22,453 --> 00:46:24,040
It was much more difficult then
997
00:46:24,090 --> 00:46:27,150
to pick an individual
out of what was
998
00:46:27,190 --> 00:46:29,000
a fairly transient population,
999
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:32,206
particularly when you have a
number of underground stations
1000
00:46:32,226 --> 00:46:34,110
and Victoria
Station underground.
1001
00:46:35,013 --> 00:46:37,513
How many people come
through there every day?
1002
00:46:37,513 --> 00:46:38,780
It's difficult.
1003
00:46:38,780 --> 00:46:40,543
There was a certain theme
1004
00:46:40,583 --> 00:46:43,700
running through the
robberies and the burglaries,
1005
00:46:43,740 --> 00:46:46,196
that the individual
responsible for them
1006
00:46:46,246 --> 00:46:49,436
had said to the victim,
"You better hurry up
1007
00:46:49,546 --> 00:46:52,013
"because I have to be back
in Springfield Hospital."
1008
00:46:52,013 --> 00:46:55,413
Which is a mental hospital
in Southwest London
1009
00:46:55,413 --> 00:46:57,813
by a specified time.
1010
00:46:57,813 --> 00:47:00,316
And of course anybody
would be able to say,
1011
00:47:00,356 --> 00:47:02,123
"Well, that's clearly a link,
1012
00:47:02,153 --> 00:47:03,943
"that's clearly
the same person."
1013
00:47:03,983 --> 00:47:06,380
[dramatic music]
1014
00:47:06,380 --> 00:47:09,646
- We all know that
Chelsea and Kensington
1015
00:47:09,646 --> 00:47:11,230
and wealthy parts of London,
1016
00:47:11,260 --> 00:47:13,480
the properties are
very expensive.
1017
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,213
We also know that there's a
large number of wealthy widows
1018
00:47:17,273 --> 00:47:19,280
living in that part of London.
1019
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,653
And Mackay's career
of mugging and robbery
1020
00:47:24,313 --> 00:47:28,426
was directed against
these fairly,
1021
00:47:28,466 --> 00:47:30,846
often quite rich, ladies
1022
00:47:30,846 --> 00:47:32,576
who are of a certain age,
1023
00:47:33,486 --> 00:47:38,046
whom in many cases he'd
sweet talked and befriended.
1024
00:47:38,046 --> 00:47:39,346
[car engine revving]
1025
00:47:39,346 --> 00:47:40,946
[dramatic music]
1026
00:47:40,946 --> 00:47:43,890
- Patrick Mackay was actually
quite a charming individual.
1027
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:45,813
He seemed to have an ability
1028
00:47:45,863 --> 00:47:49,680
to get the trust of these
elderly ladies fairly quickly.
1029
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,213
He was used to tall pubs,
1030
00:47:51,213 --> 00:47:52,646
and meet them in pubs,
1031
00:47:52,646 --> 00:47:54,913
he'd buy them a Guinness
or something like that,
1032
00:47:54,913 --> 00:47:56,450
offer to walk them home.
1033
00:47:56,490 --> 00:47:59,000
So at that point,
he must have been
1034
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,013
quite a believable character.
1035
00:48:01,013 --> 00:48:04,280
- Mackay deliberately
chooses victims
1036
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,506
that are essentially
defenseless.
1037
00:48:07,586 --> 00:48:10,403
They're not going to be
physically as strong as him.
1038
00:48:10,443 --> 00:48:12,680
[dramatic music]
1039
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,230
- Throughout his life,
he's committing violence
1040
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,320
on people more
vulnerable than him.
1041
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,540
So as a youngster, he's committing
violence on young boys,
1042
00:48:21,620 --> 00:48:25,280
on his mother because
she's weaker than him.
1043
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,053
So he's looking for people
1044
00:48:27,093 --> 00:48:30,400
that he knows he's stronger
than, that he can overpower.
1045
00:48:30,450 --> 00:48:32,646
There's not gonna be
too much of a fight.
1046
00:48:32,646 --> 00:48:34,846
[dramatic music]
1047
00:48:34,846 --> 00:48:36,813
- He would follow them home,
1048
00:48:36,813 --> 00:48:39,346
wait until they've got
their key in the lock,
1049
00:48:39,656 --> 00:48:43,016
and he would either barge
past as they turn the key
1050
00:48:43,066 --> 00:48:45,476
or he would come up
with some kind of ruse
1051
00:48:45,516 --> 00:48:46,846
to get into the property.
1052
00:48:47,216 --> 00:48:51,900
Some of these robberies were
not particularly violent,
1053
00:48:51,930 --> 00:48:56,080
he would sometimes behave
incredibly politely.
1054
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,236
On other occasions he
would, without warning,
1055
00:48:59,296 --> 00:49:01,913
just wrap his hands
around somebody's throat
1056
00:49:01,973 --> 00:49:03,636
and start strangling them.
1057
00:49:03,676 --> 00:49:07,210
It's blind luck that he
didn't kill more people,
1058
00:49:07,310 --> 00:49:08,553
during this period.
1059
00:49:08,643 --> 00:49:10,213
[typewriter keys clacking]
1060
00:49:10,213 --> 00:49:11,580
[dramatic music]
1061
00:49:11,580 --> 00:49:13,013
[typewriter keys clacking]
1062
00:49:13,013 --> 00:49:14,546
[dramatic music]
1063
00:49:14,546 --> 00:49:17,020
- Police were called to an
address in Lowndes Square
1064
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,336
in the early evening in March,
1065
00:49:19,426 --> 00:49:21,856
by Adele Price granddaughter
1066
00:49:21,896 --> 00:49:23,946
who'd found her
grandmother dead.
1067
00:49:23,946 --> 00:49:26,246
[dramatic music]
1068
00:49:26,246 --> 00:49:28,846
It must be trauma, it's
not gonna be something
1069
00:49:28,846 --> 00:49:31,013
you're ever gonna
be able to forget.
1070
00:49:31,013 --> 00:49:32,496
Police attended,
1071
00:49:32,536 --> 00:49:34,380
it was a uniform police
officer to begin with,
1072
00:49:34,380 --> 00:49:36,213
and then I went along there
1073
00:49:36,243 --> 00:49:39,713
with one of the sergeants,
I think, or the DI.
1074
00:49:40,223 --> 00:49:44,266
Mrs. Price was lying on
her bed, clearly dead,
1075
00:49:44,980 --> 00:49:46,780
marks on her neck.
1076
00:49:46,780 --> 00:49:50,660
There was a post-mortem
examination and it was established
1077
00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:54,813
that she had been
murdered, been strangled.
1078
00:49:54,813 --> 00:49:56,796
And a squad was formed
1079
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,874
under Detective
Superintendent John Bland.
1080
00:49:59,874 --> 00:50:02,754
And we very quickly, or
Mr. Bland, very quickly
1081
00:50:02,804 --> 00:50:07,574
connected this murder to a
murder about a year previously
1082
00:50:07,890 --> 00:50:09,594
in Cheyne Walk in Chelsea.
1083
00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:15,594
And we decided to link the
two murders there and then.
1084
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,007
[typewriter keys clacking]
1085
00:50:18,007 --> 00:50:20,574
[dramatic music]
1086
00:50:20,574 --> 00:50:24,974
- Isabella Griffiths was the
87-year-old widow of a surgeon.
1087
00:50:24,974 --> 00:50:28,674
She lived in one of London's
most desirable areas,
1088
00:50:28,674 --> 00:50:31,084
in Cheyne Walk on
Chelsea Embankment.
1089
00:50:31,114 --> 00:50:33,840
She was a member of the
Chelsea Gardener's Guild.
1090
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,907
She's a very well known,
recognizable figure in the area.
1091
00:50:38,750 --> 00:50:42,040
Isabella had the misfortune
of meeting Mackay
1092
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,840
on one of her walks around
the West End, in early 1974.
1093
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,374
Mackay offered to carry her
shopping back to the house.
1094
00:50:50,374 --> 00:50:53,774
She invited him in for a
cup of tea and a biscuit.
1095
00:50:53,774 --> 00:50:55,367
They got on really
well and she said,
1096
00:50:55,427 --> 00:50:57,217
"Well, look, I always
need chores doing,
1097
00:50:57,247 --> 00:50:58,367
"why don't you come back again?"
1098
00:50:58,407 --> 00:50:59,407
Which he did.
1099
00:51:00,940 --> 00:51:03,847
Over the next few weeks,
he came back a few times
1100
00:51:03,867 --> 00:51:06,207
and he would run errands,
mainly going to the shops
1101
00:51:06,207 --> 00:51:10,074
to buy copious
amounts of cat food
1102
00:51:10,074 --> 00:51:13,040
for the various cats that
she kept in the property.
1103
00:51:14,740 --> 00:51:17,807
On the 14th of February,
Patrick Mackay,
1104
00:51:17,807 --> 00:51:20,507
absconded from
Tooting Bec Hospital.
1105
00:51:20,507 --> 00:51:23,507
He'd been admitted a
couple of days previously
1106
00:51:23,507 --> 00:51:25,674
after supposedly
trying to kill himself
1107
00:51:25,694 --> 00:51:27,707
at Stockwell Tube Station.
1108
00:51:27,707 --> 00:51:30,440
Wandering through London,
he made the decision
1109
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,934
to walk to Isabella's
house at Cheyne Walk.
1110
00:51:34,807 --> 00:51:38,000
Unfortunately, Isabella's
body wasn't discovered
1111
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:39,907
for a further 12 days.
1112
00:51:39,907 --> 00:51:43,217
She had a friend who
would often walk past
1113
00:51:43,237 --> 00:51:46,244
and she described how
she always kept an eye
1114
00:51:46,274 --> 00:51:48,240
on her friend's
milk bottle levels
1115
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:49,674
to make sure they're okay.
1116
00:51:49,674 --> 00:51:50,907
[dramatic music]
1117
00:51:50,907 --> 00:51:52,940
- Neighbors were
somewhat concerned,
1118
00:51:52,940 --> 00:51:55,940
called police, police attended,
1119
00:51:55,940 --> 00:51:58,864
and she was found
dead in the house,
1120
00:51:58,914 --> 00:52:01,640
and clearly she'd been
dead for some little time.
1121
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,040
[dramatic music]
1122
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,574
Unfortunately and
extremely embarrassingly,
1123
00:52:05,604 --> 00:52:07,874
you'd have to say, the
stab wound or killed her
1124
00:52:07,884 --> 00:52:10,967
wasn't discovered until
she was at the mortuary.
1125
00:52:12,117 --> 00:52:15,707
When they undid the blanket
in which she was wrapped.
1126
00:52:15,707 --> 00:52:17,180
- The police immediately knew
1127
00:52:17,210 --> 00:52:19,330
that this was a
highly unusual murder
1128
00:52:19,370 --> 00:52:22,440
and whoever had done it needed
to be found immediately.
1129
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,274
[dramatic music]
1130
00:52:27,807 --> 00:52:29,057
- Good evening.
1131
00:52:29,097 --> 00:52:31,974
"Police One Five" this week
moves out of his usual office
1132
00:52:31,974 --> 00:52:34,070
and into an incident room
1133
00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:36,607
where a full scale murder
inquiry is underway.
1134
00:52:36,607 --> 00:52:38,140
The murder of this lady,
1135
00:52:38,140 --> 00:52:41,540
89-year-old widow,
Mrs. Adele Price.
1136
00:52:41,540 --> 00:52:42,887
And with your help
we've established,
1137
00:52:42,907 --> 00:52:44,540
she was last seen here,
1138
00:52:44,540 --> 00:52:46,857
on the corner of Knightsbridge
and Brompton Road
1139
00:52:46,887 --> 00:52:50,007
outside the Scotch House
at about five to five.
1140
00:52:50,007 --> 00:52:52,474
The next time she
was seen was here,
1141
00:52:52,474 --> 00:52:56,307
at her flat in Lowndes Square,
when her body was found,
1142
00:52:56,307 --> 00:52:57,774
she'd been murdered.
1143
00:52:57,774 --> 00:53:00,240
[dramatic music]
1144
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:02,107
- By the time of
Adele Price's death,
1145
00:53:02,107 --> 00:53:04,907
there was a squad of detectives
1146
00:53:04,907 --> 00:53:07,640
looking, not just at
the killing of Isabella,
1147
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,530
but a string of very
similar robberies
1148
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,640
of old ladies
across the West End.
1149
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,634
It didn't take a rocket
scientist to realize
1150
00:53:16,654 --> 00:53:19,187
that whoever had
killed these two women
1151
00:53:19,217 --> 00:53:21,090
was probably one
and the same man.
1152
00:53:22,140 --> 00:53:25,460
- Mr. Bland decided that
the robberies and burglaries
1153
00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:28,127
and artifice burglaries
that has happened
1154
00:53:28,577 --> 00:53:31,540
were also gonna form part
of the investigation.
1155
00:53:31,540 --> 00:53:35,640
And there were overall
40 or 50, I think.
1156
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,507
Every offense of this type
1157
00:53:37,507 --> 00:53:39,727
received a visit from an
investigative officer.
1158
00:53:39,747 --> 00:53:41,780
And I went to
hundreds, I suppose,
1159
00:53:41,850 --> 00:53:43,474
during the course of my career.
1160
00:53:43,474 --> 00:53:45,840
And we sat down and we
spoke to the victim,
1161
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,240
took whatever information
they could provide us,
1162
00:53:49,674 --> 00:53:53,374
worked out whatever clues
there might or might not be,
1163
00:53:53,374 --> 00:53:56,254
and crucially had a
scenes of crime officer
1164
00:53:56,294 --> 00:53:57,767
attend every one.
1165
00:53:58,874 --> 00:54:01,034
Sometimes they got something,
sometimes they didn't.
1166
00:54:01,074 --> 00:54:02,314
But that's the
nature of the game,
1167
00:54:02,334 --> 00:54:04,940
you don't always
get what you want.
1168
00:54:04,940 --> 00:54:06,974
But we did get
some fingerprints.
1169
00:54:06,974 --> 00:54:09,940
- On February 15th, 1975,
1170
00:54:09,940 --> 00:54:13,574
Patrick Mackay commits one
of his doorstep robberies,
1171
00:54:13,944 --> 00:54:15,614
forces his way into the home
1172
00:54:15,634 --> 00:54:17,807
of an elderly woman
called Margaret Diver.
1173
00:54:17,807 --> 00:54:20,640
[dramatic music]
1174
00:54:21,874 --> 00:54:23,364
- He'd come up behind her
1175
00:54:23,394 --> 00:54:26,174
as she was getting into
her flat in Chelsea.
1176
00:54:26,174 --> 00:54:29,574
He then grabbed her, put
his hands over her mouth,
1177
00:54:29,604 --> 00:54:32,534
pushed her from room to
room inside her flat,
1178
00:54:32,574 --> 00:54:34,707
asked her to make
him a cup of tea.
1179
00:54:34,707 --> 00:54:37,074
- She's very lucky to
escape with her life,
1180
00:54:37,074 --> 00:54:40,014
and it's a bizarre encounter
1181
00:54:40,044 --> 00:54:42,547
where they actually sit
at the kitchen table
1182
00:54:42,577 --> 00:54:46,174
for more than an hour,
talking, drinking tea.
1183
00:54:46,174 --> 00:54:48,707
And Mackay sits
there the whole time,
1184
00:54:48,707 --> 00:54:51,107
stirring his tea with
a silver teaspoon,
1185
00:54:51,107 --> 00:54:53,674
which he then just casually
leaves on the table.
1186
00:54:53,674 --> 00:54:56,990
- In those days,
fingerprint examination
1187
00:54:57,010 --> 00:54:59,574
was done by a guy with
a magnifying glass,
1188
00:54:59,904 --> 00:55:02,990
looking at a print
lifted, using black powder
1189
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,324
and sellotape from
whatever surface it was.
1190
00:55:05,384 --> 00:55:09,207
A very, very time consuming
and expensive process.
1191
00:55:09,207 --> 00:55:13,007
And we got an ident on
Patrick David Mackay,
1192
00:55:13,007 --> 00:55:16,440
who at that time was already
in custody for a murder.
1193
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,274
[dramatic music]
1194
00:55:20,874 --> 00:55:25,807
- Unbeknown to us, the Mets
have had a string of murders
1195
00:55:25,807 --> 00:55:27,574
and serious robberies.
1196
00:55:27,934 --> 00:55:31,040
Down come the Met,
an amazing scene,
1197
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,947
three detectives, including
a man called Crinnion,
1198
00:55:34,977 --> 00:55:36,550
I think it was,
1199
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,847
and they went right
through like that,
1200
00:55:39,037 --> 00:55:42,177
picking up items and
saying, "That's that murder,
1201
00:55:42,257 --> 00:55:44,500
"that's that murder,
that's that robbery."
1202
00:55:44,780 --> 00:55:46,440
- We were able to
identify some of them.
1203
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,487
In fact, we were able
to identify some of them
1204
00:55:48,517 --> 00:55:51,290
coming from a robbery
that I'd dealt with,
1205
00:55:51,890 --> 00:55:54,630
and we were able to restore
them to the victims.
1206
00:55:55,547 --> 00:55:58,587
- The Met officers just knew,
1207
00:55:58,657 --> 00:56:02,270
the minute they
saw those artifacts
1208
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,367
and the items on the
table at Northfleet,
1209
00:56:05,637 --> 00:56:08,267
they knew they had
cleared up their series
1210
00:56:08,317 --> 00:56:10,707
of murders and
serious robberies.
1211
00:56:11,137 --> 00:56:12,767
- We arranged to go
down to see them,
1212
00:56:12,827 --> 00:56:14,744
on the Wednesday
when he's at court,
1213
00:56:16,260 --> 00:56:17,617
Gravesham Magistrate's Court
1214
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:19,673
and we get him remanded
into our custody,
1215
00:56:19,673 --> 00:56:21,473
rather than going back to jail.
1216
00:56:21,473 --> 00:56:25,073
I remember walking in to see
him after the court appearance,
1217
00:56:25,073 --> 00:56:26,440
seen him in the cells.
1218
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,073
Mr. Bland was introduced.
1219
00:56:28,073 --> 00:56:30,040
Mackay said, "Yeah,
I know who you are."
1220
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,073
He said, "You're here about
the murder of Mrs. Price."
1221
00:56:33,073 --> 00:56:34,197
He said, "Yeah, I killed her."
1222
00:56:34,237 --> 00:56:36,540
He said, "And a year
ago, I killed a woman
1223
00:56:36,540 --> 00:56:39,407
"called Isabella Griffiths
in Cheyne Walk in Chelsea."
1224
00:56:41,807 --> 00:56:44,140
Right, okay, fine.
1225
00:56:44,897 --> 00:56:48,010
So we then took him
back to Canon Row
1226
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,573
and then we embarked on this
marathon interview with him,
1227
00:56:52,573 --> 00:56:55,640
which resulted in a
60 odd page statement.
1228
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,207
[typewriter keys clacking]
1229
00:57:01,340 --> 00:57:04,140
[dramatic music]
1230
00:57:06,740 --> 00:57:10,240
He sat there and he
cooperated and he drunk tea.
1231
00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:12,540
Had Chinese food
brought in for him.
1232
00:57:12,540 --> 00:57:15,940
Obviously it was
in our interests
1233
00:57:15,940 --> 00:57:18,140
to keep him on side, anyway.
1234
00:57:18,140 --> 00:57:21,040
We wanted as much
information from him
1235
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:22,477
as we could possibly get.
1236
00:57:23,373 --> 00:57:25,507
[dramatic music]
1237
00:57:25,507 --> 00:57:27,743
- [Mackay Voiceover] You
know, I can't remember
1238
00:57:27,783 --> 00:57:30,947
the name of the woman in
Cheyne Walk, unfortunately.
1239
00:57:31,407 --> 00:57:33,140
The only time it
comes back to me
1240
00:57:33,140 --> 00:57:35,907
is when I walk
over Albert Bridge.
1241
00:57:35,907 --> 00:57:38,740
[dramatic music]
1242
00:57:42,073 --> 00:57:45,940
I got to the door, knocked on
the door, about evening time,
1243
00:57:45,940 --> 00:57:48,707
because I remember as I
walked past the house,
1244
00:57:48,707 --> 00:57:51,540
I saw the light on
in one of the rooms
1245
00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:53,640
and saw her sitting there.
1246
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:55,173
[dramatic music]
1247
00:57:55,173 --> 00:57:58,140
She answered the door, but
with the safety chain on.
1248
00:57:59,673 --> 00:58:03,173
At first, she didn't
seem to recognize me.
1249
00:58:03,173 --> 00:58:05,307
Then she did and said,
1250
00:58:05,307 --> 00:58:07,640
"I don't need any
shopping done today."
1251
00:58:08,637 --> 00:58:10,740
- He had befriended
Isabella Griffiths before,
1252
00:58:10,740 --> 00:58:12,007
sort of a couple
of weeks earlier,
1253
00:58:12,007 --> 00:58:14,273
he'd been doing shopping
for her and her friends.
1254
00:58:14,273 --> 00:58:16,273
So there's an element
of trust there.
1255
00:58:16,273 --> 00:58:19,073
And yet when he went back
and asked to be let in,
1256
00:58:19,073 --> 00:58:20,873
she wouldn't let him.
1257
00:58:20,873 --> 00:58:22,693
So something seems
to have changed there
1258
00:58:22,743 --> 00:58:25,007
where either she's
recognized a look in his eyes
1259
00:58:25,007 --> 00:58:27,507
or he's done something to
her in the intervening time
1260
00:58:27,507 --> 00:58:29,773
that he doesn't
remember, and suddenly
1261
00:58:29,773 --> 00:58:32,907
that kind of relationship
between them has gone.
1262
00:58:32,907 --> 00:58:34,473
[dramatic music]
1263
00:58:34,473 --> 00:58:37,173
- [Mackay Voiceover]
I struck the door and the chain snapped.
1264
00:58:37,173 --> 00:58:40,673
I gained entry and she
backed along the passageway.
1265
00:58:40,673 --> 00:58:44,607
I realized then I had done
something I shouldn't have done,
1266
00:58:44,607 --> 00:58:46,407
and I went a bit frantic.
1267
00:58:47,307 --> 00:58:51,507
The next thing I knew
she was on the floor.
1268
00:58:51,507 --> 00:58:53,540
[dramatic music]
1269
00:58:53,540 --> 00:58:55,240
- She's denying him something,
1270
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,640
but it's not just a childish
tantrum, it's more than that,
1271
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,673
it's the fact there's an
established bond there.
1272
00:58:59,673 --> 00:59:02,407
He's not knocking on some
random old lady's door
1273
00:59:02,407 --> 00:59:04,107
and expecting that
she's gonna let him in.
1274
00:59:04,107 --> 00:59:06,073
This is supposed
to be his friend
1275
00:59:06,073 --> 00:59:09,707
and she's not behaving as
he thinks he's entitled to.
1276
00:59:09,707 --> 00:59:11,207
[dramatic music]
1277
00:59:11,207 --> 00:59:12,940
- [Mackay Voiceover] I had
grabbed her around the neck.
1278
00:59:12,940 --> 00:59:14,840
This was in the kitchen area.
1279
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:18,160
I must have pressed her
neck hard with my left hand
1280
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,107
because she went unconscious.
1281
00:59:21,540 --> 00:59:24,840
I left her then and ventured
into her front room.
1282
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:26,740
She already had the wireless on.
1283
00:59:26,740 --> 00:59:29,690
I listened to a news
bulletin on the radio
1284
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,913
and felt a strong wanting
to venture up the stairs.
1285
00:59:33,570 --> 00:59:35,973
I wandered all up the stairs.
1286
00:59:35,973 --> 00:59:37,910
I then went back down the stairs
1287
00:59:37,950 --> 00:59:40,873
and had a strong compulsion
to kill her outright.
1288
00:59:40,873 --> 00:59:42,740
[dramatic music]
1289
00:59:42,740 --> 00:59:45,140
- That is the most chilling
thing about Patrick,
1290
00:59:45,140 --> 00:59:48,617
the way that it would be
a completely random thing.
1291
00:59:48,687 --> 00:59:54,007
He described killing as a
kind of white mist came down
1292
00:59:54,313 --> 00:59:56,803
and suddenly he was
completely out of control.
1293
00:59:56,883 --> 00:59:59,240
And it was very much
as if he was possessed,
1294
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,707
that suddenly something took
him over and made him kill.
1295
01:00:02,707 --> 01:00:04,207
[dramatic music]
1296
01:00:04,207 --> 01:00:06,340
- [Mackay Voiceover] I picked
up a knife for cutting meat,
1297
01:00:06,340 --> 01:00:07,767
a standard kitchen knife,
1298
01:00:07,827 --> 01:00:11,007
about the length of a 12
inch ruler in the blade.
1299
01:00:11,007 --> 01:00:13,960
I then rammed this
through her solar plexus,
1300
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:18,273
the bone of her chest, dead
center or just a bit below.
1301
01:00:18,273 --> 01:00:20,967
I felt it embed
itself into the floor.
1302
01:00:22,707 --> 01:00:25,707
- Mackay told us that
he'd stabbed her so hard
1303
01:00:25,707 --> 01:00:28,283
that the knife had gone through
1304
01:00:28,343 --> 01:00:29,973
and stuck in the floorboard.
1305
01:00:29,973 --> 01:00:32,107
That was inaccurate.
1306
01:00:32,107 --> 01:00:33,840
He'd actually stuck
in her scapular,
1307
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:35,973
on the inside the
shoulder blade.
1308
01:00:35,973 --> 01:00:37,473
- [Mackay Voiceover]
I then left her there
1309
01:00:37,513 --> 01:00:39,177
and sat down in the front room
1310
01:00:39,217 --> 01:00:41,707
and produced a bottle
of scotch from my pocket
1311
01:00:41,707 --> 01:00:43,263
and I emptied it.
1312
01:00:43,773 --> 01:00:47,040
It did not make me drunk,
but made me inflamed.
1313
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,507
You know how whiskey
warms you up.
1314
01:00:49,507 --> 01:00:52,007
It rather stimulated me.
1315
01:00:52,007 --> 01:00:56,073
- What Mackay does
next is very unusual.
1316
01:00:56,073 --> 01:00:59,507
He kneels over her
body, he closes her eyes
1317
01:00:59,507 --> 01:01:01,807
and he crosses her
arms across her chest,
1318
01:01:01,807 --> 01:01:03,640
in the style of an undertaker.
1319
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:05,180
Then Mackay gathers
1320
01:01:05,250 --> 01:01:07,340
various items of
clothing from the house,
1321
01:01:07,340 --> 01:01:11,640
drapes them over her body
and tucks them underneath.
1322
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:13,277
- [Mackay Voiceover]
I did turn the tap on
1323
01:01:13,307 --> 01:01:15,470
in the sink in the
kitchen at Cheyne Walk,
1324
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:17,073
where I had left the body.
1325
01:01:17,073 --> 01:01:20,007
The first thing I
threw in was a handbag,
1326
01:01:20,007 --> 01:01:24,340
a dish cloth and a towel,
some knives, plates, I think,
1327
01:01:24,340 --> 01:01:26,973
a saucer and maybe some shoes.
1328
01:01:26,973 --> 01:01:29,807
It was mainly things
that came to hand.
1329
01:01:29,807 --> 01:01:31,780
I remember her
shoes had come off
1330
01:01:31,810 --> 01:01:35,573
because I saw her toes protruding
through her stockings.
1331
01:01:35,573 --> 01:01:37,840
- Mackay was in no rush
to leave this scene
1332
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,107
for reasons that will
only ever be known to him.
1333
01:01:41,107 --> 01:01:43,073
He decides to go to the sink
1334
01:01:43,073 --> 01:01:46,173
and grab various
items of crockery,
1335
01:01:46,173 --> 01:01:48,107
put them in, fill
it up with water.
1336
01:01:48,107 --> 01:01:50,693
Bizarrely, takes
Isabella's shoes
1337
01:01:50,723 --> 01:01:52,570
and puts them in
the sink as well.
1338
01:01:53,140 --> 01:01:55,197
This was something that
really confused the detectives
1339
01:01:55,227 --> 01:01:56,427
when they turned up.
1340
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:58,773
- [Mackay Voiceover] After
I had taken the knife
1341
01:01:58,773 --> 01:02:00,873
out of her body
and covered her up,
1342
01:02:00,873 --> 01:02:03,573
I had a good look at
the blade of the knife.
1343
01:02:03,573 --> 01:02:06,707
I then contemplated ramming
it into my own body,
1344
01:02:06,707 --> 01:02:09,753
but then felt that this
was not the thing to do
1345
01:02:09,783 --> 01:02:10,857
at the present moment.
1346
01:02:12,073 --> 01:02:14,913
I then made an exit
out onto the street,
1347
01:02:14,963 --> 01:02:16,200
taking the knife with me.
1348
01:02:17,340 --> 01:02:19,877
- He'd worked through
the chronology of events
1349
01:02:19,907 --> 01:02:21,740
and John Bland said to him,
1350
01:02:21,740 --> 01:02:24,607
"Okay, I now want to ask
you about Adele Price."
1351
01:02:25,740 --> 01:02:30,603
And Mackay took
this deep breath in
1352
01:02:30,663 --> 01:02:31,770
and stood up
1353
01:02:31,790 --> 01:02:34,873
and almost swelled in
front of you and stood up.
1354
01:02:35,353 --> 01:02:40,417
And I thought, shit,
where we going from here?
1355
01:02:40,773 --> 01:02:42,440
And then he sat
down and he said,
1356
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:43,707
"Oh, I'm sorry about that."
1357
01:02:43,707 --> 01:02:46,040
He said, "I just had the
red mist for a minute."
1358
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:47,673
[dramatic music]
1359
01:02:47,673 --> 01:02:50,597
- [Mackay Voiceover] On that
day, I went down to Belgravia
1360
01:02:50,647 --> 01:02:52,473
about a quarter past 12.
1361
01:02:52,473 --> 01:02:53,807
[dramatic music]
1362
01:02:53,807 --> 01:02:56,157
I did a continuance
amount of wanderance
1363
01:02:56,187 --> 01:02:59,040
around Knightsbridge and
then went into Harrods,
1364
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:00,937
it's that large store.
1365
01:03:01,940 --> 01:03:05,170
The reason for which was
to do a bit of circulating
1366
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:06,373
for a likely pickup,
1367
01:03:06,373 --> 01:03:09,440
anybody who might be a
fair chance to follow.
1368
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:10,940
[dramatic music]
1369
01:03:10,940 --> 01:03:16,270
- On March 10th, 1975,
Mackay had had no luck
1370
01:03:16,550 --> 01:03:19,440
finding a potential robbery
victim outside Harrods.
1371
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,987
He'd retired, quite
disappointed to Lowndes Square,
1372
01:03:23,027 --> 01:03:25,190
and he'd plonked himself
down on the bench
1373
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,403
and was drinking from
a bottle of whiskey.
1374
01:03:27,513 --> 01:03:30,460
He saw Adele Price
returning home.
1375
01:03:31,307 --> 01:03:32,540
- [Mackay Voiceover] I
looked across the street
1376
01:03:32,570 --> 01:03:34,863
and saw the lady
involved in the murder,
1377
01:03:34,913 --> 01:03:37,073
cross the street onto my side.
1378
01:03:37,073 --> 01:03:38,677
I stopped as if lost,
1379
01:03:38,697 --> 01:03:41,493
awaited to see which
building she would enter.
1380
01:03:41,513 --> 01:03:42,870
When she entered the building,
1381
01:03:42,900 --> 01:03:44,997
I made to fumble with my keys.
1382
01:03:45,907 --> 01:03:47,963
She had opened the
door by this time
1383
01:03:48,013 --> 01:03:49,950
and I slipped in behind her.
1384
01:03:51,140 --> 01:03:53,940
She turned around,
looked a little startled.
1385
01:03:53,940 --> 01:03:57,707
I waved my keys and said,
"Oops, sorry, madam."
1386
01:03:57,917 --> 01:03:59,663
She then closed the front door
1387
01:03:59,733 --> 01:04:01,937
and I made my way up the stairs.
1388
01:04:01,997 --> 01:04:03,240
[dramatic music]
1389
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:07,673
- Mackay overtakes her, but he
puts on a tremble in his leg.
1390
01:04:08,127 --> 01:04:10,763
She notices this and he
says, "Oh, are you okay?"
1391
01:04:10,873 --> 01:04:14,540
Mackay says, "Well, I'm
feeling a little bit faint."
1392
01:04:14,950 --> 01:04:17,350
According to his
account, Adele then says,
1393
01:04:17,390 --> 01:04:19,257
"Well, would you like to
come in for a glass of water
1394
01:04:19,277 --> 01:04:20,420
"or a cup of tea?"
1395
01:04:20,460 --> 01:04:22,373
At which point he says, "Well,
yeah, that'd be lovely."
1396
01:04:22,373 --> 01:04:23,840
[dramatic music]
1397
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:25,740
- [Mackay Voiceover] She told
me to wait in the parlor,
1398
01:04:25,770 --> 01:04:27,917
which was just inside
her front door.
1399
01:04:29,073 --> 01:04:32,100
When her back was turned, I
slammed the front flat door
1400
01:04:32,310 --> 01:04:35,250
and whisked into the
room where the TV was
1401
01:04:35,290 --> 01:04:36,517
and into her kitchen.
1402
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,823
She then came out
of the bathroom
1403
01:04:39,863 --> 01:04:42,370
and I was out of her
vision at this time
1404
01:04:42,430 --> 01:04:45,540
and heard her exclaim,
"Oh, how odd."
1405
01:04:45,850 --> 01:04:47,660
She seemed to have
the impression
1406
01:04:47,690 --> 01:04:49,680
that I had departed
from the flat.
1407
01:04:50,807 --> 01:04:53,513
I think this was the general
idea at the back of my mind
1408
01:04:53,553 --> 01:04:55,790
when I slammed the front
door and whisked away.
1409
01:04:56,907 --> 01:05:00,773
She came into the kitchen,
stated in shocked surprise
1410
01:05:00,813 --> 01:05:02,273
that she thought I had gone.
1411
01:05:02,703 --> 01:05:06,033
I then told her that I did
not want any complications
1412
01:05:06,093 --> 01:05:08,283
and that I was feeling on edge.
1413
01:05:09,547 --> 01:05:11,893
I looked around
the room and stated
1414
01:05:11,943 --> 01:05:15,547
that this was Belgravia, you
must know what I'm here for.
1415
01:05:15,687 --> 01:05:18,213
She then said, "I
can well guess."
1416
01:05:18,973 --> 01:05:21,293
I told her to go to the bedroom.
1417
01:05:21,333 --> 01:05:22,587
She went there.
1418
01:05:22,637 --> 01:05:24,873
I seemed to go into
the bedroom with her.
1419
01:05:25,343 --> 01:05:28,023
- To see somebody like
Mackay standing there,
1420
01:05:29,373 --> 01:05:34,373
it must have been
terrifying, terrifying.
1421
01:05:34,787 --> 01:05:36,473
I wouldn't want to
see that happen to me.
1422
01:05:37,607 --> 01:05:40,840
[dramatic music]
1423
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:44,607
You suddenly think that's
what the cops call,
1424
01:05:44,607 --> 01:05:48,883
in their really cultured
way, an oh shit moment.
1425
01:05:52,473 --> 01:05:56,063
It must be, "This is
not gonna end well."
1426
01:05:57,227 --> 01:05:59,530
I mean, I don't suppose
that she'd ever been
1427
01:05:59,580 --> 01:06:02,583
confronted with those
threatening type of situations
1428
01:06:02,623 --> 01:06:03,707
before in her life.
1429
01:06:04,127 --> 01:06:08,007
But that is a clear
and serious threat.
1430
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:10,930
And she must have
realized then that
1431
01:06:12,007 --> 01:06:14,907
the best she was gonna get
would be the worst of it.
1432
01:06:14,907 --> 01:06:18,373
Just shocking, shocking.
1433
01:06:18,603 --> 01:06:20,137
- [Mackay Voiceover] The
next thing I remember,
1434
01:06:20,157 --> 01:06:21,940
I had my hand around her neck.
1435
01:06:21,940 --> 01:06:24,970
I don't remember what
hand or how I did it,
1436
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:26,857
or even why I did it.
1437
01:06:26,940 --> 01:06:29,263
It seemed to happen
so much quicker
1438
01:06:29,303 --> 01:06:30,633
than in the Cheyne Walk one
1439
01:06:30,673 --> 01:06:32,690
where I seemed to
have lots of time.
1440
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:35,823
As I was strangling her,
1441
01:06:35,943 --> 01:06:38,483
she seemed to sink
down onto the floor.
1442
01:06:38,553 --> 01:06:40,437
I didn't particularly
think about
1443
01:06:40,487 --> 01:06:41,963
whether she was dead or not.
1444
01:06:42,003 --> 01:06:45,400
I went into the TV
room, switched on the TV
1445
01:06:45,570 --> 01:06:48,307
and gazed out of the
window for quite some time.
1446
01:06:48,307 --> 01:06:53,450
- This is weird, spooky,
ghoulish behavior,
1447
01:06:53,630 --> 01:06:55,977
having killed somebody
to sit with the body.
1448
01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:59,494
It was what he did with
Isabella Griffiths,
1449
01:06:59,494 --> 01:07:02,460
and it is what he
did with Adele Price.
1450
01:07:02,460 --> 01:07:05,527
And ultimately he
sat in the bathroom
1451
01:07:06,627 --> 01:07:09,527
with the bleeding
corpse of Father Crean.
1452
01:07:10,727 --> 01:07:14,927
This marks him out
from most murderers.
1453
01:07:14,927 --> 01:07:16,694
Psychiatrists would tell you,
1454
01:07:17,684 --> 01:07:21,460
part of the abnormality
of a completely ruthless
1455
01:07:21,460 --> 01:07:26,027
and unscrupulous person
that we call a psychopath.
1456
01:07:26,027 --> 01:07:27,494
[dramatic music]
1457
01:07:27,494 --> 01:07:30,030
- It's almost like being
an interested bystander.
1458
01:07:30,100 --> 01:07:32,554
Something has happened and
you are curious about it,
1459
01:07:32,574 --> 01:07:35,037
and there's his desire to
stay in the crime scene.
1460
01:07:35,087 --> 01:07:38,137
He wants to be there
watching what he's done.
1461
01:07:38,197 --> 01:07:40,174
But it is as an observer,
1462
01:07:40,204 --> 01:07:41,637
it's almost as though
he doesn't realize
1463
01:07:41,667 --> 01:07:43,260
that he's caused this.
1464
01:07:43,260 --> 01:07:46,427
And again, there's this distance
between him and the victim.
1465
01:07:46,457 --> 01:07:50,060
There's no empathy towards
them, there's no emotion,
1466
01:07:50,060 --> 01:07:52,887
it's just watching.
1467
01:07:53,177 --> 01:07:54,327
- [Mackay Voiceover]
I started to think
1468
01:07:54,327 --> 01:07:55,870
what I had done with my life.
1469
01:07:56,260 --> 01:07:59,127
I didn't particularly think
about murdering the old woman.
1470
01:07:59,127 --> 01:08:00,990
It didn't strike me particularly
1471
01:08:01,030 --> 01:08:03,660
that I was in a
serious situation.
1472
01:08:03,660 --> 01:08:06,060
I don't what
happened after that.
1473
01:08:06,060 --> 01:08:08,427
I may have dropped
off for a while.
1474
01:08:08,427 --> 01:08:11,354
The next I remember was
I heard a rattling sound,
1475
01:08:11,384 --> 01:08:13,360
and this seemed to wake me up.
1476
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,230
- It was her granddaughter
1477
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:16,594
who was trying to
get into the flat,
1478
01:08:16,594 --> 01:08:19,760
which she couldn't do because
Mackay had put up this latch.
1479
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,160
Obviously at this point,
1480
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,660
Mackay's probably
thinking he's been caught.
1481
01:08:24,660 --> 01:08:27,494
But what happens is
the granddaughter,
1482
01:08:27,494 --> 01:08:29,033
not being able to
get into the flat,
1483
01:08:29,073 --> 01:08:31,863
goes downstairs to see
whether she can get a neighbor
1484
01:08:31,894 --> 01:08:33,294
or someone to help.
1485
01:08:33,294 --> 01:08:36,627
In the intervening time,
Mackay leaves the flat
1486
01:08:36,627 --> 01:08:39,227
and starts heading
downstairs himself.
1487
01:08:39,227 --> 01:08:41,527
He passes the
granddaughter who says,
1488
01:08:41,527 --> 01:08:43,627
"Oh, have you seen
anybody up there?
1489
01:08:43,627 --> 01:08:45,127
"I can't get in."
1490
01:08:45,267 --> 01:08:49,067
Mackay puts on a Northern
accent and says to her,
1491
01:08:49,136 --> 01:08:51,027
"You'd better go
get the porter."
1492
01:08:51,027 --> 01:08:53,260
- He just leaves and passes her.
1493
01:08:53,260 --> 01:08:57,160
And you know, she's left to
discover her grandmother's body.
1494
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:00,594
So he lacks that kind
of sense of remorse
1495
01:09:00,654 --> 01:09:05,094
or sense of empathy towards
what she might be about to find.
1496
01:09:05,094 --> 01:09:06,904
- These individuals
really struggle
1497
01:09:06,934 --> 01:09:08,096
with emotional connection,
1498
01:09:08,117 --> 01:09:12,157
having the capacity to
understand, interpret
1499
01:09:12,216 --> 01:09:15,450
and connect with emotions,
1500
01:09:15,550 --> 01:09:18,360
whether their own or of others.
1501
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:20,827
- It's very callous,
it's very cool.
1502
01:09:21,594 --> 01:09:23,304
And again, it doesn't show
1503
01:09:23,354 --> 01:09:26,227
that he's got a full sense of
awareness of what he's done
1504
01:09:26,227 --> 01:09:28,377
or the enormity of it.
1505
01:09:28,447 --> 01:09:31,447
- Came that close
to being identified
1506
01:09:31,517 --> 01:09:34,604
and possibly that close
to her granddaughter
1507
01:09:34,624 --> 01:09:36,256
being a murder victim too.
1508
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,827
And then he's just melted
away into the night.
1509
01:09:39,827 --> 01:09:42,027
[dramatic music]
1510
01:09:42,027 --> 01:09:43,960
- During the course
of these interviews,
1511
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:48,527
Mackay stuns detectives
by suddenly revealing
1512
01:09:48,527 --> 01:09:51,460
that he has a fourth victim.
1513
01:09:51,460 --> 01:09:54,360
- He told us about a
murder that he committed
1514
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:56,890
on Hungerford Bridge,
1515
01:09:56,930 --> 01:09:59,494
when you could still walk
across Hungerford Bridge.
1516
01:09:59,494 --> 01:10:01,527
[dramatic music]
1517
01:10:01,527 --> 01:10:03,437
- [Mackay Voiceover] This
was in the early hours,
1518
01:10:03,507 --> 01:10:07,794
2:30 a.m. I think,
sometime in January, 1974.
1519
01:10:07,794 --> 01:10:10,460
It was before I killed
the woman in Cheyne Walk.
1520
01:10:10,460 --> 01:10:13,787
I had been drinking in
pubs in the Clapham area,
1521
01:10:13,847 --> 01:10:16,354
and when they closed,
I walked from Stockwell
1522
01:10:16,394 --> 01:10:17,410
up to the embankment
1523
01:10:17,440 --> 01:10:19,894
and walked alongside
of the River Thames.
1524
01:10:19,894 --> 01:10:22,934
Halfway over the
bridge, I saw a vagrant.
1525
01:10:22,974 --> 01:10:25,527
He was late 40s or 50.
1526
01:10:25,527 --> 01:10:28,927
He wore a sort of cap
affair, shabby, grease cap.
1527
01:10:28,967 --> 01:10:30,570
He had some growth on his face
1528
01:10:30,610 --> 01:10:32,894
as if he hadn't
shaved for some time.
1529
01:10:32,894 --> 01:10:34,460
As he came towards me,
1530
01:10:34,460 --> 01:10:37,494
I could see that he had
been drinking himself
1531
01:10:37,584 --> 01:10:39,547
and he shouted some abuse at me.
1532
01:10:39,617 --> 01:10:41,327
I can't remember what he said,
1533
01:10:41,377 --> 01:10:43,694
but something like
F off or fuck off.
1534
01:10:43,694 --> 01:10:45,760
He was sort of growling.
1535
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,660
He waved his arm in
the air towards me.
1536
01:10:48,660 --> 01:10:51,560
It was at that time
that I lost my temper.
1537
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:54,294
[dramatic music]
1538
01:10:54,294 --> 01:10:57,994
I grabbed him by his pants
at the backside and his neck,
1539
01:10:57,994 --> 01:11:00,194
that is the collar at
the back of his coat,
1540
01:11:00,194 --> 01:11:02,597
and heaved him over
the edge of the bridge
1541
01:11:02,627 --> 01:11:04,360
into the River Thames.
1542
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:06,994
[dramatic music]
1543
01:11:06,994 --> 01:11:09,194
- When he was telling
us, he started laughing.
1544
01:11:09,194 --> 01:11:10,427
He said, "It was funny."
1545
01:11:10,427 --> 01:11:12,467
He said, "His arms and
legs were flying about."
1546
01:11:13,127 --> 01:11:15,427
He said, "He hit the
water with a big splash."
1547
01:11:16,860 --> 01:11:19,814
So oh, so, Jimmy said to
him, "So, what'd you do?"
1548
01:11:19,894 --> 01:11:21,007
He said, "Nothing."
1549
01:11:22,294 --> 01:11:25,527
He said, "It was his fault,
shouldn't have sworn at me."
1550
01:11:25,527 --> 01:11:26,830
- [Mackay Voiceover]
He started splashing
1551
01:11:26,860 --> 01:11:28,427
as though he couldn't swim.
1552
01:11:28,427 --> 01:11:31,827
I can't remember if he
shouted, but I suppose he did.
1553
01:11:31,827 --> 01:11:33,260
He was splashing a lot.
1554
01:11:33,260 --> 01:11:35,220
I didn't care if he sank or not.
1555
01:11:36,597 --> 01:11:38,227
- But we never
identified that guy
1556
01:11:38,227 --> 01:11:42,200
because Mackay's grasp
on time and space
1557
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:45,880
and so on and so forth,
wasn't sufficient to say
1558
01:11:45,930 --> 01:11:49,660
that happened on Monday, the
12th of July or whatever.
1559
01:11:49,890 --> 01:11:52,124
So we were left with
a period of time
1560
01:11:52,164 --> 01:11:53,687
of about four or five weeks,
1561
01:11:53,717 --> 01:11:58,524
during which time there were
half a dozen bodies washed up
1562
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:02,460
that roughly fitted
the description.
1563
01:12:02,460 --> 01:12:04,890
But certainly not sufficient
1564
01:12:04,990 --> 01:12:06,727
for us to be able to
say that happened.
1565
01:12:06,727 --> 01:12:09,527
I mean, you could say that
Mackay said he did it.
1566
01:12:09,527 --> 01:12:12,824
But you've gotta be able
to prove, first of all,
1567
01:12:12,874 --> 01:12:15,927
that the body you have is the
one that he's talking about.
1568
01:12:15,927 --> 01:12:19,230
And it just couldn't be solved.
1569
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:20,460
[dramatic music]
1570
01:12:20,460 --> 01:12:22,580
- [Mackay Voiceover] These
murders were so solemn,
1571
01:12:22,620 --> 01:12:27,027
when I think of them, yet so
quick, so fast to take place.
1572
01:12:27,407 --> 01:12:29,174
You know, a man who has killed
1573
01:12:29,204 --> 01:12:32,034
cannot really say much
more than the basics
1574
01:12:32,104 --> 01:12:34,094
from his point of view
as he remembers it.
1575
01:12:34,094 --> 01:12:36,270
In my case, for instance,
1576
01:12:36,350 --> 01:12:39,194
I became very cocky about
a few things that happened.
1577
01:12:39,194 --> 01:12:40,760
[dramatic music]
1578
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:46,590
- Mackay felt a sense
of control and enjoyment
1579
01:12:46,637 --> 01:12:50,230
at the fact that the police
were very much reliant on his narrative.
1580
01:12:50,410 --> 01:12:54,310
He was central to
this entire situation.
1581
01:12:54,350 --> 01:12:59,590
So I think that served to
increase his feelings of control
1582
01:12:59,670 --> 01:13:02,154
and his own self-esteem,
in all of the interactions.
1583
01:13:03,194 --> 01:13:05,527
- It absolutely gives
him some degree of power.
1584
01:13:05,597 --> 01:13:07,194
The last word on
these people's lives.
1585
01:13:07,234 --> 01:13:09,287
He's not only the last
person that saw them,
1586
01:13:09,357 --> 01:13:11,037
he's not only the person
that took their lives,
1587
01:13:11,117 --> 01:13:13,207
he's the person that gives us
1588
01:13:13,267 --> 01:13:15,727
our understanding of them
in their final moments.
1589
01:13:16,257 --> 01:13:18,114
- There were other
murders that he admitted
1590
01:13:18,154 --> 01:13:19,727
during the course of this,
1591
01:13:19,727 --> 01:13:22,294
but of course we had
no knowledge of them,
1592
01:13:22,294 --> 01:13:24,694
no intimate knowledge
of them at all,
1593
01:13:24,694 --> 01:13:28,560
because they'd happened
in divisions away from us.
1594
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,600
So there was not much
we could do about them,
1595
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:33,734
other than note the fact
1596
01:13:33,784 --> 01:13:35,880
that he'd said that he
was responsible for them.
1597
01:13:35,910 --> 01:13:37,627
[train engine revving]
1598
01:13:37,627 --> 01:13:42,357
- July, 1973, there's a
17-year-old German Au Pair
1599
01:13:42,417 --> 01:13:45,627
called Heidi Mnilk,
who is on a train.
1600
01:13:46,047 --> 01:13:47,654
She was stabbed multiple times
1601
01:13:47,684 --> 01:13:50,427
and her body was thrown
from the moving train.
1602
01:13:50,427 --> 01:13:56,097
Mackay supposedly bragged
about having killed this woman.
1603
01:13:56,284 --> 01:14:00,944
- You can see why that young
blonde girl, Heidi Mnilk,
1604
01:14:01,384 --> 01:14:04,937
had to be a target for him 'cause he
would've spoken to her,
1605
01:14:05,057 --> 01:14:06,594
found out she was German,
1606
01:14:06,594 --> 01:14:09,394
found out she was
quite pretty in a way.
1607
01:14:09,394 --> 01:14:12,460
But he was on a train, she
was going out the door.
1608
01:14:12,820 --> 01:14:14,500
I do believe he did that.
1609
01:14:14,580 --> 01:14:17,744
But what you got, a door that
opens, a girl on the track.
1610
01:14:17,844 --> 01:14:19,160
You got nothing else.
1611
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:20,527
[gentle music]
1612
01:14:20,527 --> 01:14:22,094
[train engine revving]
1613
01:14:22,094 --> 01:14:23,594
[gentle music]
1614
01:14:23,594 --> 01:14:27,797
- January, 1974, a lady
called Stephanie Britton
1615
01:14:27,817 --> 01:14:30,474
and her four-year-old
grandson, Christopher Martin,
1616
01:14:30,494 --> 01:14:34,180
were murdered in their house
in High Barnet, North London.
1617
01:14:34,300 --> 01:14:37,504
This was an area that Mackay
was very familiar with,
1618
01:14:37,544 --> 01:14:39,154
he'd worked there
as a groundsman.
1619
01:14:39,204 --> 01:14:42,767
The suspect in this
case was a young man,
1620
01:14:42,837 --> 01:14:45,364
seen loitering in the area.
1621
01:14:45,414 --> 01:14:47,427
Stephanie had been strangled,
1622
01:14:47,427 --> 01:14:50,747
Christopher had been
stabbed in the chest.
1623
01:14:50,797 --> 01:14:53,727
There's never been another
suspect other than Mackay.
1624
01:14:53,727 --> 01:14:56,670
- The bottom line is,
for all of these things,
1625
01:14:57,710 --> 01:15:00,567
whatever somebody tells
you, you've got to prove it.
1626
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:03,240
There's no point in saying,
1627
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:04,940
"He's admitted that he's
gonna plead guilty."
1628
01:15:04,940 --> 01:15:07,373
Maybe not, you've
gotta prove it.
1629
01:15:07,373 --> 01:15:09,873
It's not about the truth
when you get to court,
1630
01:15:09,873 --> 01:15:11,373
it's about what you can prove.
1631
01:15:11,373 --> 01:15:13,273
It all has to be proved.
1632
01:15:13,273 --> 01:15:15,506
[birds chirping]
1633
01:15:15,506 --> 01:15:18,173
[gentle music]
1634
01:15:20,873 --> 01:15:22,373
- My name's Vic Davis.
1635
01:15:23,540 --> 01:15:26,706
My mother, Ivy
Davis was murdered
1636
01:15:26,706 --> 01:15:29,873
on February the 4th, 1975.
1637
01:15:30,923 --> 01:15:35,806
To the outside world, she was
happy-go-lucky, welcoming.
1638
01:15:35,806 --> 01:15:39,206
But as a private
person, to her children,
1639
01:15:39,206 --> 01:15:43,040
she was very cold
and sharp and direct.
1640
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:45,840
She said, "Jump" and you said,
"How high" sort of thing.
1641
01:15:46,740 --> 01:15:48,773
Different world in them days.
1642
01:15:48,773 --> 01:15:51,506
[dramatic music]
1643
01:15:51,506 --> 01:15:55,106
- She was a fairly well
known figure in Southend.
1644
01:15:55,106 --> 01:16:00,026
She ran the Orange Tree Cafe,
which was a beachfront cafe,
1645
01:16:00,086 --> 01:16:03,806
part of a row of little
independent restaurants.
1646
01:16:03,806 --> 01:16:06,440
- In 1960, when my
parents split up,
1647
01:16:06,440 --> 01:16:09,440
she took the two oldest
children, both daughters,
1648
01:16:09,440 --> 01:16:11,403
and put the rest of us
in the children's home
1649
01:16:11,443 --> 01:16:12,773
in Shoeburyrness.
1650
01:16:12,773 --> 01:16:16,140
When I became 15, they
allowed me to visit my mother
1651
01:16:16,140 --> 01:16:18,673
on a Thursday at seven o'clock,
1652
01:16:18,673 --> 01:16:20,523
until I got into
trouble with the police
1653
01:16:20,563 --> 01:16:25,373
and I was put in a young
offenders institute.
1654
01:16:25,820 --> 01:16:29,040
That week, fortunately
or unfortunately for me,
1655
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:30,906
I was in charge of the TV.
1656
01:16:30,906 --> 01:16:33,273
Every week, it was
allocated to somebody else,
1657
01:16:33,273 --> 01:16:35,063
rather than just
people turning over
1658
01:16:35,103 --> 01:16:37,073
whenever they felt like it.
1659
01:16:37,073 --> 01:16:39,006
So the 5:45 news came on,
1660
01:16:39,006 --> 01:16:40,940
as nowadays, they give
you the headlines,
1661
01:16:40,940 --> 01:16:42,440
what's coming up on the TV?
1662
01:16:42,440 --> 01:16:44,540
And then they said,
"Murder in Southend."
1663
01:16:44,540 --> 01:16:46,340
At the same time, all these
guys are saying to me,
1664
01:16:46,340 --> 01:16:49,716
"Vic, turn the TV over, The
Monkeys is gonna be on."
1665
01:16:49,736 --> 01:16:53,673
"The Monkeys" TV show is due
to start on the other side.
1666
01:16:55,440 --> 01:16:59,170
So I said, hold on a minute,
there's a murder in Southend,
1667
01:16:59,210 --> 01:17:00,740
I might know who it is.
1668
01:17:00,740 --> 01:17:02,873
I'll turn it over
when I find out.
1669
01:17:02,873 --> 01:17:06,206
Never thinking I'd have
any idea who it was.
1670
01:17:06,206 --> 01:17:09,073
Bang, picture of my
mother on the TV.
1671
01:17:10,073 --> 01:17:11,206
And I'm like
1672
01:17:12,573 --> 01:17:14,323
Froze, just froze.
1673
01:17:14,343 --> 01:17:15,973
And they all saying,
"Do you know who is it?
1674
01:17:15,973 --> 01:17:17,840
"Turn over turn."
1675
01:17:19,073 --> 01:17:21,473
Yes, I fucking know who it is.
Excuse the language.
1676
01:17:21,473 --> 01:17:23,173
I know who it is.
1677
01:17:23,173 --> 01:17:24,473
It's my bloody mother.
1678
01:17:24,473 --> 01:17:26,020
And TV went flying.
1679
01:17:26,070 --> 01:17:28,663
I don't even remember
throwing the TV.
1680
01:17:29,123 --> 01:17:31,006
I just don't remember it,
1681
01:17:31,006 --> 01:17:32,540
but that's what
they told me I did.
1682
01:17:32,540 --> 01:17:35,506
I just went into ice
cold shock really.
1683
01:17:36,806 --> 01:17:40,273
- Ivy Davis fitted the
Mackay victim profile
1684
01:17:40,273 --> 01:17:43,740
of an older lady who might
have a bit of money at home.
1685
01:17:43,740 --> 01:17:47,340
The murder scene
itself was reminiscent
1686
01:17:47,340 --> 01:17:49,406
of what happened
at Father Crean's.
1687
01:17:49,406 --> 01:17:52,940
She'd been battered around
the head with a heavy object,
1688
01:17:52,940 --> 01:17:55,606
turned out to be
a metal pry bar,
1689
01:17:55,606 --> 01:17:59,140
which was just casually
discarded at the scene.
1690
01:17:59,140 --> 01:18:01,273
- They think she was
dragged down the stairs
1691
01:18:01,273 --> 01:18:02,936
with ligature around her neck.
1692
01:18:02,986 --> 01:18:05,706
She was found with a
ligature around her neck.
1693
01:18:05,706 --> 01:18:08,840
Although they've confirmed
that that didn't kill her.
1694
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:11,273
They've told me that
whoever killed her,
1695
01:18:11,273 --> 01:18:13,973
spent quite a bit of time
in my mother's house,
1696
01:18:13,973 --> 01:18:18,908
cleaning up, moving furniture
around, undressing my mother,
1697
01:18:18,938 --> 01:18:21,653
putting her in a night dress.
And she was all bad on one side,
1698
01:18:21,710 --> 01:18:23,176
and so they laid
her on her bad side
1699
01:18:23,226 --> 01:18:25,806
to make it look like she'd
fallen asleep, watching TV,
1700
01:18:25,806 --> 01:18:27,280
left the TV on.
1701
01:18:29,223 --> 01:18:31,460
Anyway, I was contacted
by this woman,
1702
01:18:31,500 --> 01:18:33,606
she said that she used to
work in my mother's cafe
1703
01:18:33,606 --> 01:18:35,906
up until the time
she was killed.
1704
01:18:35,906 --> 01:18:39,740
And one particular day
1705
01:18:39,740 --> 01:18:42,313
this man came into the cafe
1706
01:18:42,343 --> 01:18:44,873
asking if he could
bring in some patients
1707
01:18:44,933 --> 01:18:46,816
from Runwell Hospital.
1708
01:18:47,406 --> 01:18:50,140
And so my mother
said, "Who are you?"
1709
01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:54,073
And he said, "My name's
Patrick, I'm a doctor.
1710
01:18:54,073 --> 01:18:57,766
"I'm just taking these
inpatients out for a day out,
1711
01:18:57,816 --> 01:18:59,706
"give 'em some air."
1712
01:18:59,976 --> 01:19:01,240
So she said, "Yes, okay."
1713
01:19:01,240 --> 01:19:04,973
He brought 'em in and fed
them whatever they wanted.
1714
01:19:04,973 --> 01:19:08,613
- Obviously Patrick
Mackay wasn't a doctor
1715
01:19:08,653 --> 01:19:11,640
at a mental hospital, he
was a longstanding patient.
1716
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:13,810
Not sure whether he'd
ever been in Runwell,
1717
01:19:13,850 --> 01:19:15,243
it's possible that he might have
1718
01:19:15,280 --> 01:19:16,780
admitted himself at some point
1719
01:19:16,780 --> 01:19:21,747
because he did admit himself
occasionally and then abscond.
1720
01:19:22,270 --> 01:19:23,847
So it's quite possible.
1721
01:19:23,847 --> 01:19:25,547
But we just don't know
1722
01:19:25,547 --> 01:19:28,113
because sadly Ivy's
not around to ask.
1723
01:19:28,113 --> 01:19:30,180
- The story he goes that
1724
01:19:30,180 --> 01:19:33,413
while he was on remand
before he went to trial,
1725
01:19:34,060 --> 01:19:38,513
he admitted a few other murders
actually naming my mother,
1726
01:19:38,513 --> 01:19:39,780
that yes, he killed her.
1727
01:19:41,313 --> 01:19:43,747
- If Mackay did know
about The Orange Tree,
1728
01:19:43,747 --> 01:19:45,180
did know about Ivy,
1729
01:19:45,310 --> 01:19:48,520
it would be incredibly
unlucky on her part
1730
01:19:48,890 --> 01:19:53,113
that a completely different
psychopathic killer
1731
01:19:53,113 --> 01:19:55,027
has visited her on that
day and killed her.
1732
01:19:55,627 --> 01:19:57,083
- He was there.
1733
01:19:57,843 --> 01:20:00,047
But you see, if I'm there,
1734
01:20:00,047 --> 01:20:01,980
it don't mean to say
I've murdered you.
1735
01:20:02,743 --> 01:20:06,047
If I'm there and I've got your
blood on me, that's better.
1736
01:20:06,820 --> 01:20:09,567
If I'm there and my fingerprints
are around your throat,
1737
01:20:10,197 --> 01:20:12,673
if you've got something like
a collar on, that's better.
1738
01:20:13,343 --> 01:20:15,630
But if I'm there,
and you're dead,
1739
01:20:15,710 --> 01:20:17,177
that don't make me a killer.
1740
01:20:17,637 --> 01:20:20,113
- [Mackay Voiceover] At the
request of the Southend Police,
1741
01:20:20,113 --> 01:20:21,903
we went to view
this murder house.
1742
01:20:22,073 --> 01:20:25,777
She had apparently been hit,
one killing blow on the head.
1743
01:20:25,927 --> 01:20:28,987
I was never charged with this,
and I would think not to.
1744
01:20:29,107 --> 01:20:31,247
It certainly wasn't
me they wanted.
1745
01:20:32,447 --> 01:20:34,880
- Psychopaths, like
to create chaos.
1746
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:39,013
So creating a situation
where he makes a confession
1747
01:20:39,013 --> 01:20:42,420
and then at the last moment
retracts that confession
1748
01:20:42,470 --> 01:20:44,880
is a means to retaining power.
1749
01:20:45,210 --> 01:20:48,290
- Mackay made numerous
further confessions.
1750
01:20:48,370 --> 01:20:51,320
The two most serious ones
1751
01:20:51,710 --> 01:20:54,380
were the murder of a man
called Frank Goodman,
1752
01:20:54,380 --> 01:20:56,890
who was a shopkeeper
in North London
1753
01:20:56,910 --> 01:20:58,937
who'd been battered
in his store.
1754
01:20:59,207 --> 01:21:01,013
The other was, again,
1755
01:21:01,013 --> 01:21:03,587
another elderly lady
called Mary Hines,
1756
01:21:03,667 --> 01:21:08,280
killed in a very similar
way to Isabella and Adele.
1757
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:10,247
- [Mackay Voiceover] She was
found stabbed, I believe,
1758
01:21:10,247 --> 01:21:12,080
and battered to death.
1759
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:15,280
There is no evidence to tie
me except statements I made
1760
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,200
in a fed up and couldn't
care less frame of mind.
1761
01:21:18,980 --> 01:21:23,047
- In June, 1974,
shopkeeper Frank Goodman
1762
01:21:23,047 --> 01:21:26,280
was battered to death in his
store in Rock Street, Finsbury.
1763
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:28,547
The detectives involved
in that case said
1764
01:21:28,547 --> 01:21:30,037
it was one of the most
horrific crime scenes
1765
01:21:30,067 --> 01:21:31,183
they'd ever seen.
1766
01:21:31,223 --> 01:21:35,180
Essentially, Mr. Goodman's
head was obliterated.
1767
01:21:35,180 --> 01:21:37,747
It has a lot of similarities
1768
01:21:37,747 --> 01:21:40,780
to the crime scene
with Father Crean,
1769
01:21:40,780 --> 01:21:43,580
in terms of the
ferocity of this attack.
1770
01:21:44,420 --> 01:21:47,020
- And then we found the
shoes two years later,
1771
01:21:47,130 --> 01:21:48,730
still with Goodman's blood,
1772
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:51,070
under the welt of
Mackay's shoes.
1773
01:21:51,300 --> 01:21:54,717
We knew it was his shoes, he
said where we'd find them.
1774
01:21:54,897 --> 01:21:56,813
We knew it was Goodman's blood,
1775
01:21:56,813 --> 01:21:59,447
so we knew that that
one had to be true,
1776
01:21:59,447 --> 01:22:01,690
so he could have been
charged with that one.
1777
01:22:01,740 --> 01:22:06,613
- However, these two cases,
when it came to court,
1778
01:22:06,613 --> 01:22:10,947
Mackay said he was gonna
plead not guilty to murder.
1779
01:22:10,947 --> 01:22:15,947
The CPS decided to let
those cases lie on file.
1780
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:18,843
- Perhaps the three
murders that he went up for
1781
01:22:18,883 --> 01:22:20,680
were ones that,
1782
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:24,347
I'm gonna use a police
term, were bang to rights,
1783
01:22:24,347 --> 01:22:27,213
and the others were ones that,
1784
01:22:27,213 --> 01:22:30,480
if he went to trial
and he went not guilty,
1785
01:22:30,480 --> 01:22:31,813
he could walk away with it.
1786
01:22:31,813 --> 01:22:33,023
[dramatic music]
1787
01:22:33,053 --> 01:22:36,747
- When I wrote my book, I
looked at the unsolved cases
1788
01:22:36,747 --> 01:22:38,847
that were linked
to Patrick Mackay.
1789
01:22:38,847 --> 01:22:40,163
When I started looking at it,
1790
01:22:40,203 --> 01:22:42,847
I fully expected to find that
in the intervening years,
1791
01:22:42,847 --> 01:22:44,453
some of them have
had been solved.
1792
01:22:44,913 --> 01:22:46,290
None of them have been.
1793
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:48,647
Not only have they
not been solved,
1794
01:22:48,647 --> 01:22:53,113
in those years, there have
never been any serious suspects
1795
01:22:53,113 --> 01:22:54,613
put up by the police.
1796
01:22:54,613 --> 01:22:58,380
So you've got to question,
what's going on here?
1797
01:22:58,380 --> 01:23:00,460
Some of these were horrific.
1798
01:23:00,500 --> 01:23:03,370
They were obviously carried
out by a dangerous maniac.
1799
01:23:03,390 --> 01:23:07,413
So if Patrick Mackay didn't
commit these crimes, who did?
1800
01:23:07,413 --> 01:23:10,547
[gentle music]
1801
01:23:10,547 --> 01:23:11,797
- I was there at the Old Bailey
1802
01:23:11,837 --> 01:23:14,447
on the 21st of November, 1975,
1803
01:23:14,447 --> 01:23:17,913
and the trial, with a blink of
an eye, you'd have missed it.
1804
01:23:17,913 --> 01:23:20,113
I'd been to all the
remand hearings as well
1805
01:23:20,113 --> 01:23:21,747
with them at magistrate's court.
1806
01:23:21,747 --> 01:23:26,280
So I was quite familiar then
with being fairly close to him.
1807
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:28,810
And his eyes almost looked like
1808
01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:30,380
they belonged to somebody else.
1809
01:23:30,380 --> 01:23:32,733
But the moment
they turned on you,
1810
01:23:32,773 --> 01:23:35,247
he looked around the
court for familiar faces,
1811
01:23:35,247 --> 01:23:38,380
so it was the police, it
was me as the reporter
1812
01:23:38,380 --> 01:23:40,280
who'd been following him around,
1813
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:41,910
and when they settled on you,
1814
01:23:41,950 --> 01:23:44,613
they sent a real
chill down your spine.
1815
01:23:44,613 --> 01:23:48,747
I mean, you know, the
phrase, cold-blooded killer,
1816
01:23:48,747 --> 01:23:51,480
could have been invented
for Patrick Mackay.
1817
01:23:52,480 --> 01:23:54,447
He showed no emotion at all.
1818
01:23:54,447 --> 01:23:56,280
He obviously knew
what was coming.
1819
01:23:56,280 --> 01:24:00,047
It was Mr. Justice
Milmo who was presiding
1820
01:24:00,047 --> 01:24:03,297
and gave him a very
quick life sentence
1821
01:24:03,317 --> 01:24:05,580
and said that he
should not be released
1822
01:24:05,580 --> 01:24:07,617
until it could be proved
1823
01:24:07,637 --> 01:24:09,647
that he wasn't a
danger to the public.
1824
01:24:09,647 --> 01:24:11,103
And that's where we are now.
1825
01:24:11,133 --> 01:24:14,413
So we're 47 years on from that,
1826
01:24:14,413 --> 01:24:16,390
and Patrick Mackay
has now become
1827
01:24:16,430 --> 01:24:18,103
Britain's
longest-serving prisoner.
1828
01:24:19,113 --> 01:24:20,647
- [Mackay Voiceover] The
doctors whom I have seen
1829
01:24:20,647 --> 01:24:24,280
feel that I may not or would
not respond to medical help
1830
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:26,547
if it were to be given
or offered to me.
1831
01:24:27,713 --> 01:24:30,013
It is in fact the
direct opposite.
1832
01:24:30,013 --> 01:24:31,900
I would be willing,
body and soul,
1833
01:24:31,950 --> 01:24:34,300
to accept medical help
in a secure hospital
1834
01:24:34,350 --> 01:24:36,347
for many years to
come if necessary,
1835
01:24:36,407 --> 01:24:39,863
for I know deep down that
this is just what I need,
1836
01:24:39,903 --> 01:24:43,980
if there is to be any future
for me to lead a normal life.
1837
01:24:43,980 --> 01:24:47,730
I must be helped, I can't
remain in the state I am
1838
01:24:47,780 --> 01:24:49,347
for the rest of my life.
1839
01:24:49,347 --> 01:24:53,980
It is my last hope to
survive as a human being.
1840
01:24:53,980 --> 01:24:57,080
[dramatic music]
1841
01:24:57,080 --> 01:24:58,547
- Although you were
dealing at the time
1842
01:24:58,547 --> 01:25:00,843
with what we thought
could potentially be
1843
01:25:00,883 --> 01:25:03,613
Britain's most
prolific serial killer,
1844
01:25:03,613 --> 01:25:06,577
it kind of captured the
headlines the day after,
1845
01:25:06,617 --> 01:25:07,880
it was certainly the front page
1846
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:10,513
of all the national
newspapers the day after,
1847
01:25:10,513 --> 01:25:12,180
after that it was forgotten.
1848
01:25:12,180 --> 01:25:15,013
[dramatic music]
1849
01:25:17,447 --> 01:25:20,113
The person who gave the
most detail at the time
1850
01:25:20,143 --> 01:25:23,310
was Patrick Mackay's,
adopted Father Bert Cowdrey.
1851
01:25:23,340 --> 01:25:24,930
He was the one who
began to give me
1852
01:25:24,980 --> 01:25:29,080
some kind of insight
into Patrick's mind.
1853
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:32,313
- He was always coming
here with women's watches,
1854
01:25:32,313 --> 01:25:34,747
necklaces, broaches.
1855
01:25:34,747 --> 01:25:37,647
Things that a man
should never have.
1856
01:25:37,647 --> 01:25:39,247
Well, when I used to say to him,
1857
01:25:39,247 --> 01:25:41,480
"Where'd you get
them then mush?"
1858
01:25:41,480 --> 01:25:43,813
"Oh, I'm looking after
it for somebody."
1859
01:25:43,813 --> 01:25:45,690
We knew that he
was buying drugs,
1860
01:25:45,720 --> 01:25:49,947
but where from or what he
was taking, we didn't know.
1861
01:25:49,947 --> 01:25:53,713
And after dark had come down
1862
01:25:53,713 --> 01:25:56,213
and he'd had a few drinks,
1863
01:25:56,213 --> 01:25:59,753
got a few drinks in him, he
absolutely turned violent.
1864
01:25:59,773 --> 01:26:01,737
He was capable of
doing anything.
1865
01:26:01,757 --> 01:26:03,047
[dramatic music]
1866
01:26:03,317 --> 01:26:06,013
- If anything, this was
absolutely terrifying
1867
01:26:06,083 --> 01:26:09,710
that Patrick had told
him that he believed
1868
01:26:09,780 --> 01:26:13,277
that if Satan could come down
in human form, he was it.
1869
01:26:13,327 --> 01:26:14,913
[dramatic music]
1870
01:26:14,913 --> 01:26:16,827
I'd put it to Bert Cowdrey,
1871
01:26:16,867 --> 01:26:19,713
are you saying that Patrick
Mackay is the devil's disciple?
1872
01:26:19,713 --> 01:26:21,397
To which he said, "Yes,
1873
01:26:21,437 --> 01:26:23,347
"I think that's a fair
description of him."
1874
01:26:23,347 --> 01:26:26,197
Which is how the headline
appeared in the paper.
1875
01:26:26,217 --> 01:26:27,257
[dramatic music]
1876
01:26:27,257 --> 01:26:29,530
- We were all scared of kind
of the bogeyman, you know,
1877
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:31,390
or people breaking into
our homes at night.
1878
01:26:31,440 --> 01:26:34,147
And so to use this kind
of description of him,
1879
01:26:34,147 --> 01:26:36,057
however factual it might be,
1880
01:26:36,107 --> 01:26:38,347
it also kind of
serves this purpose of
1881
01:26:38,397 --> 01:26:41,050
working almost as a horror
story to the readers
1882
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:44,213
or some sort of nightmare
that we can all identify with.
1883
01:26:44,213 --> 01:26:47,217
You know, that these
figures aren't in our heads,
1884
01:26:47,247 --> 01:26:48,620
they do exist.
1885
01:26:49,513 --> 01:26:52,447
- I mean, it was an absolutely
tremendous front page.
1886
01:26:52,447 --> 01:26:54,413
But I think that with
all these things,
1887
01:26:54,413 --> 01:26:56,610
you also are always conscious
1888
01:26:56,630 --> 01:26:58,607
that there are victims involved
1889
01:26:58,647 --> 01:27:00,713
and human tragedies behind it.
1890
01:27:00,713 --> 01:27:02,447
[dramatic music]
1891
01:27:02,797 --> 01:27:06,083
Patrick Mackay has been
behind bars for 47 years.
1892
01:27:06,133 --> 01:27:09,797
Very little has come out about
exactly what he's been doing
1893
01:27:09,837 --> 01:27:12,080
and what treatment
he's been having.
1894
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:15,113
And obviously the key
now for the parole board,
1895
01:27:15,113 --> 01:27:17,480
when they're deciding
on his release,
1896
01:27:17,590 --> 01:27:19,783
is whether or not
something has changed
1897
01:27:19,803 --> 01:27:22,020
in that intervening 47 years,
1898
01:27:22,090 --> 01:27:24,550
or he still remains the
danger to the public
1899
01:27:24,580 --> 01:27:25,873
that he always was.
1900
01:27:26,847 --> 01:27:30,007
- [Reporter] One of the most
dangerous men in the country,
1901
01:27:30,057 --> 01:27:31,960
back on Kent Streets.
1902
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:34,253
That's the prospect
facing the county
1903
01:27:34,353 --> 01:27:36,630
with serial killer
Patrick Mackay
1904
01:27:36,700 --> 01:27:39,377
potentially being
moved to an open prison
1905
01:27:39,417 --> 01:27:41,647
with a view to being released.
1906
01:27:41,967 --> 01:27:43,083
- My name's Gareth Johnson.
1907
01:27:43,113 --> 01:27:45,287
I'm the member of
Parliament for Dartford.
1908
01:27:45,437 --> 01:27:46,680
Before becoming a
member of Parliament,
1909
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:50,713
I was a solicitor specializing
in criminal justice.
1910
01:27:50,713 --> 01:27:53,797
I received a phone call
about three or four years ago
1911
01:27:53,877 --> 01:27:56,480
from someone who worked
in the prison service
1912
01:27:56,480 --> 01:27:59,343
who was deeply concerned
about Patrick Mackay
1913
01:27:59,413 --> 01:28:01,980
potentially being released
back into the community.
1914
01:28:02,020 --> 01:28:05,613
They had had some very bad
experiences with Patrick Mackay.
1915
01:28:06,153 --> 01:28:09,433
They felt that he was a potentially
enormously violent man.
1916
01:28:09,513 --> 01:28:10,580
If I'm honest with you,
1917
01:28:10,580 --> 01:28:12,513
when I first received that
phone call, like most people,
1918
01:28:12,513 --> 01:28:14,730
I'd never heard of
Patrick Mackay before.
1919
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:16,510
And so we had to do a
little bit of digging
1920
01:28:16,550 --> 01:28:18,510
to find out exactly
who this man was.
1921
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:20,577
And the more and more
we found out about him,
1922
01:28:20,617 --> 01:28:23,380
the more and more
concerned I became,
1923
01:28:23,380 --> 01:28:25,913
that this is a man
who could be released
1924
01:28:25,913 --> 01:28:29,650
back into society in his 60s
1925
01:28:29,780 --> 01:28:32,036
and potentially able to commit
some of the
1926
01:28:32,116 --> 01:28:34,293
heinous crimes that he had
committed before.
1927
01:28:34,353 --> 01:28:35,620
And what was also concerning,
1928
01:28:35,660 --> 01:28:38,277
there was two matters
that were left on file
1929
01:28:38,307 --> 01:28:39,310
that were still there,
1930
01:28:39,330 --> 01:28:40,847
and also that he was suspected
1931
01:28:40,877 --> 01:28:43,213
of having committed
other killings as well.
1932
01:28:43,213 --> 01:28:46,337
And it seemed to us that
these other killings
1933
01:28:46,367 --> 01:28:48,247
hadn't been properly
looked into,
1934
01:28:48,597 --> 01:28:50,260
and there seemed
to be too much ease
1935
01:28:50,290 --> 01:28:52,753
at the way that those
matters were left on file
1936
01:28:52,793 --> 01:28:54,700
just to gather dust for years.
1937
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:57,413
And that's exactly how
they've been to this day.
1938
01:28:57,833 --> 01:29:00,903
- There seems to be a
worrying lack of curiosity
1939
01:29:00,943 --> 01:29:03,797
by the police on
exactly what happened
1940
01:29:03,837 --> 01:29:05,747
to these cases
that were unsolved.
1941
01:29:05,747 --> 01:29:10,700
Now, when Patrick Mackay was
coming up for parole recently,
1942
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:12,730
my understanding was the police
1943
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:16,550
were doing a cold case review
of some of these murders.
1944
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:17,970
I did check that out
1945
01:29:18,020 --> 01:29:20,127
and police said, no,
they weren't doing that.
1946
01:29:20,177 --> 01:29:21,473
But one of the reasons
1947
01:29:21,503 --> 01:29:24,713
why parole hearings
were being postponed
1948
01:29:24,773 --> 01:29:27,380
was so these investigations
could be carried out
1949
01:29:27,410 --> 01:29:30,067
to see if he could be
charged with anything else.
1950
01:29:30,107 --> 01:29:31,960
As far as I can gather,
nothing ever happened,
1951
01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:33,480
nothing ever came of that.
1952
01:29:33,480 --> 01:29:36,573
- [Reporter] Since
1995, Mackay's parole
1953
01:29:36,613 --> 01:29:39,607
has been reviewed on
10 separate occasions.
1954
01:29:39,677 --> 01:29:42,403
In each of those, he's
been deemed too dangerous
1955
01:29:42,473 --> 01:29:45,223
to be integrated
back into society.
1956
01:29:46,180 --> 01:29:48,690
- What we've asked for
is if the parole boards
1957
01:29:48,860 --> 01:29:51,217
were to release him, which
would be wrong, in my opinion,
1958
01:29:51,287 --> 01:29:53,283
that there's a lot
of restrictions
1959
01:29:53,333 --> 01:29:55,320
that we would like to
have placed upon him
1960
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:57,560
so that he doesn't go
to the Dartford area
1961
01:29:57,560 --> 01:29:59,293
or the neighboring towns.
1962
01:29:59,293 --> 01:30:00,827
He doesn't go back
to areas where,
1963
01:30:00,827 --> 01:30:02,260
not only the victims
used to live,
1964
01:30:02,260 --> 01:30:04,527
but also the victims
for those murders
1965
01:30:04,527 --> 01:30:06,327
he's suspected of
having carried out.
1966
01:30:06,327 --> 01:30:07,827
[car engine revving]
1967
01:30:07,827 --> 01:30:10,160
He should be monitored
incredibly carefully
1968
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:11,427
if he was ever to be released,
1969
01:30:11,427 --> 01:30:13,627
but I don't think any
amount of monitoring
1970
01:30:13,647 --> 01:30:14,650
would be sufficient.
1971
01:30:14,670 --> 01:30:16,160
And that's why I don't
think it would be right
1972
01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:17,497
for him to be released at all.
1973
01:30:17,827 --> 01:30:21,027
He benefits from his anonymity.
1974
01:30:21,573 --> 01:30:23,393
People don't know about him
1975
01:30:23,393 --> 01:30:25,527
and therefore it's an easier job
1976
01:30:25,527 --> 01:30:27,193
for the parole
board to release him
1977
01:30:27,193 --> 01:30:29,147
without there being
a public backlash.
1978
01:30:29,457 --> 01:30:31,483
Because the public aren't
aware of Patrick Mackay
1979
01:30:31,623 --> 01:30:34,463
and they should be, they
really should be aware of him.
1980
01:30:35,093 --> 01:30:37,027
[gentle music]
1981
01:30:37,027 --> 01:30:40,017
- I don't think that
somebody like Patrick Mackay
1982
01:30:40,327 --> 01:30:42,793
should be able to be free
1983
01:30:42,793 --> 01:30:45,127
while he still has
the physical ability
1984
01:30:45,127 --> 01:30:47,227
to put his hands
around someone's throat
1985
01:30:47,227 --> 01:30:49,037
and squeeze the
life out of them.
1986
01:30:49,097 --> 01:30:52,863
I think he should be kept
away from the general public.
1987
01:30:53,273 --> 01:30:54,993
- I'm one of these people
1988
01:30:55,313 --> 01:30:58,460
that is convinced that a leopard
can never change his spots.
1989
01:31:00,060 --> 01:31:03,060
Maybe I haven't got anything
to be nervous about,
1990
01:31:03,060 --> 01:31:04,827
but as I say,
1991
01:31:04,827 --> 01:31:07,960
if he doesn't know that his
mother's moved from here,
1992
01:31:07,960 --> 01:31:10,893
he might well come
here looking for her
1993
01:31:10,893 --> 01:31:12,527
and then might start
knocking on doors
1994
01:31:12,527 --> 01:31:14,693
to try and find
out where she is.
1995
01:31:14,693 --> 01:31:15,893
And I would be much happier
1996
01:31:15,893 --> 01:31:18,093
if I didn't have any
contact with him at all.
1997
01:31:19,017 --> 01:31:20,593
- This is somebody
who is capable
1998
01:31:20,633 --> 01:31:22,460
of going back out on the streets
1999
01:31:22,460 --> 01:31:24,260
and carrying out
his reign of terror.
2000
01:31:24,260 --> 01:31:27,193
The only reason he
stopped killing people
2001
01:31:27,193 --> 01:31:29,827
was because he was
arrested for those matters.
2002
01:31:29,827 --> 01:31:32,160
It wasn't a decision
that he made himself,
2003
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:34,960
he was stopped from
killing any more people.
2004
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:36,627
And therefore, in my mind,
2005
01:31:36,627 --> 01:31:38,727
he remains the most
dangerous individual
2006
01:31:38,727 --> 01:31:42,327
we have eligible for parole
in this country at the moment.
2007
01:31:42,327 --> 01:31:45,160
- Well he's had 40 odd
years to be rehabilitated
2008
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:48,627
and we don't know whether that's
going to have worked or not
2009
01:31:48,627 --> 01:31:49,950
unless he is freed.
2010
01:31:50,460 --> 01:31:53,127
So it's kind of a bit of a
game of Russian roulette,
2011
01:31:53,127 --> 01:31:56,793
that if you keep him locked
up, you're never going to know.
2012
01:31:56,793 --> 01:32:00,460
But if he's freed, you might
find out the wrong way.
2013
01:32:00,460 --> 01:32:03,660
- One would have
to be very cautious
2014
01:32:03,660 --> 01:32:07,360
about whether he can be
rehabilitated or not.
2015
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:11,093
When I think about it and when
I weigh up all the evidence
2016
01:32:11,093 --> 01:32:13,393
all over a number of years,
2017
01:32:13,393 --> 01:32:17,460
when I weigh up how many
years he's been incarcerated,
2018
01:32:17,460 --> 01:32:20,927
I still probably have my doubts.
2019
01:32:20,927 --> 01:32:25,927
But I'm not anyone
in the medical world, I can't read them.
2020
01:32:26,293 --> 01:32:28,350
But then neither
could these people
2021
01:32:28,370 --> 01:32:32,193
in these kind of institutions
he went to as a youngster,
2022
01:32:32,193 --> 01:32:33,860
they clearly couldn't read him.
2023
01:32:33,860 --> 01:32:36,127
'Cause every time they released
him, he killed someone.
2024
01:32:36,127 --> 01:32:37,327
[dramatic music]
2025
01:32:37,327 --> 01:32:38,960
- Patrick Mackay
2026
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:43,793
is what you could call
a pure psychopath.
2027
01:32:43,793 --> 01:32:47,127
He didn't have to worry
about living a double life
2028
01:32:47,127 --> 01:32:50,293
or keeping a veneer
of respectability.
2029
01:32:50,293 --> 01:32:52,093
He didn't have a plan.
2030
01:32:52,093 --> 01:32:57,093
If he wanted to lose complete
control and kill somebody,
2031
01:32:57,390 --> 01:32:58,750
that's what he did.
2032
01:32:58,810 --> 01:33:04,587
He took life with the
same kind of impulsiveness
2033
01:33:04,727 --> 01:33:07,293
that a normal person might use
2034
01:33:07,353 --> 01:33:09,493
to pick up a bar of chocolate.
2035
01:33:09,493 --> 01:33:12,293
[dramatic music]
2036
01:33:12,293 --> 01:33:15,527
- [Mackay Voiceover] You know,
when I look at myself now,
2037
01:33:15,527 --> 01:33:18,527
I could put a bullet through
my head and through my brain
2038
01:33:18,527 --> 01:33:21,793
for the kind of bloody
life that I have had,
2039
01:33:21,793 --> 01:33:24,527
but I do not know who
would do me that service.
2040
01:33:25,480 --> 01:33:28,927
I have often thought to
myself whenever I'm alone,
2041
01:33:28,927 --> 01:33:31,660
that it would be the best
thing I could ever have done.
2042
01:33:32,793 --> 01:33:37,727
♪ Sometimes I feel
like I'm blowing away ♪
2043
01:33:38,627 --> 01:33:41,560
♪ And the sky is broken
2044
01:33:41,560 --> 01:33:43,860
♪ It floods like a vein
2045
01:33:43,860 --> 01:33:46,793
♪ And I pray and I pray
2046
01:33:46,793 --> 01:33:50,593
♪ And I pray and I pray
2047
01:33:50,593 --> 01:33:54,360
♪ But the answers don't
come when I'm gone ♪
2048
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:56,960
[gentle music]
2049
01:34:15,460 --> 01:34:18,960
[gentle music continues]
152361
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.