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(Tape rewinding)

(Phone ringing)

Man: (On phone)
Hello?

Man 2: (On phone)
Yeah, this
the Two Bar?
Yeah.

Can I speak to Al...
Coholic please?

What are you trying
to do, make a jerk
out of yourself?

(Tape recorder clicks)

Man 3:
Come on, fellas,
you're losing
your heads.

Man 4:
Orson, you did
six last year

and by far and away
the best and I know
the reason...

The right reading
for this is the one
I'm giving it.

(Tape recorder clicks)
Man 5:
So if I come down there

and you call the police
when I get there...
you're recording me?

Woman:
So what?
Why are you
recording me?

(Tape recorder clicks)

Man 6:
Double fucking bullshit.

Motherfucking, dog-licking
goddamn bullshit.

(Tape rewinding)

(Vibrant ¶¶)

( ¶¶ )

Man:
The way we found
237 Steiner was,

I think Mitch found
a little ad in the
classified paper.

We make our way down

from this sort of
nice neighbourhood
where we're staying

and we're creeping
along and I'm going,

"Oh wow, we might
live in one of these
cool old buildings!"

And then we pull up

and there's this
totally ramshackle
shithole of a place.

Yeah, when we first
saw the place,

it was this gaudy
pink colour.

"What does this
remind us of?"

I don't remember
who coined it,

but we came up with
the "Pepto-Bismol Palace",

because Pepto-Bismol is
a classic kind of antacid,

anti-diarrhea medicine.

We said, "We'll
sign the lease."

The absentee landlord
of the place, Nancy Lee,

she stepped out
of the apartment,
I'll never forget it,

and she turned...
(Laugh)

after the lease was
signed, and she said,

(Imitating accent)
"One more thing:

next door neighbours,
sometime little bit loud."

Man: (On recording)
All you are is
a fucking queer
motherfucker.

You want to watch
queer shit!

I don't want to
watch that shit!

Man 2:
We're watching
"Wheel of Fortune"
and "Jeop...

You're watching
a bunch of fucking
queer motherfuckers!

I don't want to watch
queer motherfuckers!

I've had enough
tonight, Ray.

Ray:
Well then...
(Overlapping shouts)

Then shut your
mouth, you fucking
piece of shit.

You shut up,
little man!

Little man,
you shut up!

I don't want
to hurt you.
You've been...

you've been
screeching
for an hour.
Now, stop it.

No, I haven't,
you lying fucking
piece of shit.
Stop it.

You dirty
little man.
...piece of shit.

You even smell...
All you are is
a piece of shit.

I smell like a human
being, you smell like
a fucking dog!

You shut up,
little man.

Shut up, little man!

Shut up, little man!

Shut up, little man!

Shut up, little man!

Shut up, little man!

Shut up, little man!

Shut up, little man!

( ¶¶ )

Men:
¶ As we look at our state ¶

¶ We would like to begin ¶

¶ With
the beautiful shores ¶

¶ Of Lake Michigan ¶

Woman:
¶ And right here and now ¶

Men & Women:
¶ We'd like to make it clear ¶

( ¶¶ )

¶ We like it ¶

Eddie:
Well, Wisconsin's
a totally backward place.

It's like beer, cheese,
the Green Bay Packers.

It's pretty limited.

Male voice: (On film)
What about our cranberries,
our corn and our peas?

Mitch:
The impetus for me,
I think, to get out

was I kind of
outgrew Wisconsin.

It was time for
me to move on.

Male voice: (On film)
That's a good looking
crop you have this year.

(Rock ¶¶)

Eddie:
Yeah, at the end of college

everybody starts
formulating plans

for the next phase
of their lives.

Mitch:
We ran into one another
and I said, "Well, what
are you going to do?"

"Yeah, I'm definitely
thinking about going
to California."

I said, "Yeah, I'm heading
to San Francisco."

"So am I, you know,
that's definitely
what I want to do."

Eddie:
He's like, "Dude,
let's go together."

¶ Well,
I'm going out West ¶

¶ Where I belong ¶

( ¶¶ )

¶ Where the days
are short ¶

¶ And the nights
are long ¶

( ¶¶ )

Mitch:
It was a momentous time.

I was, you know, moving
on to the next chapter.

( ¶¶ )

Eddie:
We were going
into the unknown.

We had no idea what
we were going to do.

I mean, I didn't
have a job or any
prospects out there.

You know, I just knew
that I wanted to go

to this big, giant city

and, you know,
found a new persona.

¶ I'll shiver ¶

¶ A little shiver ¶

¶ And I'll fly ¶

¶ A little fly ¶

¶ While they're out there
having fun, yeah ¶

¶ In the warm
California sun ¶

( ¶¶ )

¶ Well, they're out there
having fun, yeah ¶

¶ In the warm
California sun ¶

Eddie:
So, you know, basically

the Pepto-Bismol Palace
was like a cheap motel.

You know, there
were two rows

of four apartments,

one on top
of each other.

They were all connected
by this concrete veranda.

It was basically,
like, made out of
snot and cardboard.

The walls were paper-thin.

It was a place
you'd be embarrassed

to have people over,
basically, you know.

( ¶¶ )

I think it was...
it was about
three weeks in,

after we had
signed the lease

that we were living
there that we first
heard the neighbours.

I... I was laying
down in my bed

and all I could hear
was this voice going,

"Shut up, little man.

"Shut up, little man.

"Shut up, little man!

Shut up, little man."

And I was just laying
in bed going,

"What the fuck
is going on?"

It was one morning,
I got up as usual.

You know, we get up,
meet in the kitchen

and he said, "Did you
hear that last night?"

"No, I didn't
hear anything."

The next night

I'm laying in bed,
and I hear,

"Shut up,
little man."

(Mumbling)
"Not again."

And then I heard
the other voice:

"Shut your fucking
mouth, cocksucker!"

"Shut up,
little man."

"You shut your
fucking mouth,
you queer cocksucker!"

First of all, I thought
it was this one lunatic,

like, talking to himself
in the room, right?

Then I understood,
"Oh, there's two
dudes in there

and they're fighting."

Ray:
Then shut your mouth,
you fucking piece of shit.

Eddie:
So, I heard Mitch get up
for work and I got up...

"Hey, man, did you
hear those guys
fighting last night?"

You know, again,
I'm a very sound sleeper.

I don't wake up
very easily,

so I certainly wasn't
awakened by these guys.

And he said,
"Oh, it was just crazy."

I felt a little unhinged

and the fact that
he wasn't hearing them

was making me feel
more unhinged.

Peter:
Shut up, little man.

You see what you've done?

Male voice: (On film)
Got to get to sleep.

Eddie:
And then it
happened again.

Peter:
Shut up, little...

Male voice: (On film)
No, got to get to sleep.

Peter:
Shut up, little man.

Mitch:
He came into my room.

It was about 3:30,
4:00 in the morning,

just started, like,
shaking my leg,

saying, "Hey, hey, Mitch!

Wake up, wake up!
They're going at it."

I jumped out of bed,
ran into his room,

we slid open the window
and we were sitting
there listening.

And he said, "This is it.

This is what these
guys are doing."

Peter:
You bitch. You
dirty little man.

Ray:
Don't call me a bitch,
you cocksucker.

You are a bitch.

Goddamn you.

No, I'm not some sort
of a fucking nut.

(Laughing)
No...

(Overlapping shouts)

Giggle all
you want to!

Giggle!

Giggle, dirty
little man.

You always
giggle falsely!

You don't
have a decent
giggle in you.

I am a decent...
Shut up, little man!

I'm a decent fucking...
Shut up, little man!

You are not.

You bet damn
right I am.
Shut up, little man.

(Alarm ringing)

Eddie:
This time,

it was basically
trying to figure out
survival strategies,

because you're living
next door to people who
have no regimented time.

They don't work.

They basically
drink all day

and pound the shit
out of each other.

Peter:
Go to bed. Go to bed.

Ray:
Shut your fucking mouth...

(Thuds of slap and
punches landing)

Mitch:
You know, their
fighting never ended.

They drank, they
drank for a living;
that was apparent.

Peter:
You have drunk the wine,

you have drunk the vodka.

Shut up, little man!

Ray, you are
just fucking up.

I had had enough
and I went nuts.

And I decide I was
going to deal with it.

(Upbeat jazz ¶¶)

So, I went over

to the next door
neighbour's house

and I banged on the door.

Nothing's happening.

And then I kicked. Boom.

Finally, I could
hear something

kind of rattling on the
other side of the door.

And then
the door opened up...

and there was this...

Cro-Magnon looking
kind of guy,

who had the neck muscles
of a newborn.

I was infuriated.

I said, "Goddamn it,"
you know,

"you guys have been
screaming for days.

"I'm trying to
get some sleep.

You need to shut
the fuck up."

(Ominous ¶¶)

So, it was Ray,
and he said,

(Wheezing chuckle)

"Hey, listen,
you cocksucker,

"you skinny cocksucker,

"shut your fucking mouth
and go back to bed.

"I was a killer before
you were born

and I'll be a killer
when you're dead."

And I had this kind
of moment where...

I popped into,
like, sobriety.

I was looking at this
totally drunken asshole

who had just
threatened to kill me...

(Chuckling)

Eddie:
...and I looked over

and there was a human
skull in the window.

And I... I was
standing there and
I thought to myself,

"Man, I am in way over
my head here."

And I kind of scurried
back to my apartment.

And I remember we could
hear Ray saying,

"Come knock on my door,
you cocksucker.

I dare you.
I kill, I will kill."

(Thuds)

Ray:
But I'm a killer.

You want to fuck with me,
you little cocksucker?

Try it.

Go ahead, come knock
on my fucking door,

you little fucking
piece of shit.

I will kill you
instantly.

Oh my God, you know?

Two young guys
kind of living in
the city thinking...

not knowing them,
not knowing who they were,

you know, threatening
to kill us.

It wasn't commonplace
for us.

Ray:
I am ready now

to kill any cocksucker

that wants to
fuck with me.

The first recording,
you know, was in response.

It was a response
to feeling intimidated,

feeling frightened,
really, feeling scared.

I want to document this

in case something really
horrible does go down.

I remember setting
up the boom box,

grabbing a blank tape
out of the tape box.

And I ran in my room
and I grabbed these...
my ski poles,

took the microphone,
spliced in some
speaker wire,

and held the ski poles
out the window

adjacent to their window.

And now we could hear
it coming through them,
through the speakers,

and it was coming through
loud and clear.

And, uh, it was moments
after we had done this

that all of a sudden
you hear Peter say...

You know we are sort
of like, "Oh no! Oh,
what should we do?"

And, you know,
we both looked at
each other and like,

"Fuck it, leave it there,
see what happens."

And all of
a sudden, Ray...

you can hear Ray kind
of coming to the window
and he says...

Mitch: (On recording)
Yeah?

That was their response
to being recorded.

They didn't...
they didn't seem to care.

Peter:
Will you stop it?

Little man, stop it!
Stop it!

Ray:
You cocksucker,
you know what
you did?

No...
You ruined my
cigarette papers.

I didn't ruin
your cigarette papers,
you asshole.

How did I ruin your
cigarette papers?

There's this sort
of bitchy queen thing

going on with
Peter, you know.

Ray:
Look at them.
There they are.

Peter:
Well, how did I do it?

You jumped, you hit me
a while ago, you dirty
cocksucker.

Oh well, darling,
I am sorry!

Here are some...

here are some
cigarette papers
for you, asshole.

Here they are.

There you are,
darling.

Ray:
Don't call me
darling, you...

Peter:
Well then, don't
act like a fool.

And then Raymond was
this sort of embittered,

redneck,
absolute frothing,

you know,
queer-hating homophobe.

Ray:
Because that's true.

I despise all
fucking queers.

Cocksuckers.

I like girls

and normal,
decent human beings.

Boys like girls
and girls like boys.

Fuck them little
cocksuckers.

It's just mind boggling

that they would actually
not only live together,

but that they would stay
living together, you know?

We would giggle and
laugh over the absurdity
of it, how crazy it was.

And, uh, then, you know,
it was like, "We got to
get some more of this.

Let's get some
more of this."

So yeah, I definitely...
we both did, we became
obsessed with it.

"What are they
going to say next?"

Ray: (On recording)
What did you do
during the war?

You didn't do
nothing except
being fucking queer.

That's all
queers ever do.

I hate queers.

Queers are not
human beings.
Peter:
Here we go again.

Cut it out, Ray.

Well, tell me what
you did in the war.

Shut your dirty
little mouth...

Tell me what you
did during the... war,
you fucking queer.

What did you do
during any war?

You didn't
do anything.

You son of a bitch,
I was wounded
three times.

Oh, bullshit.
Goddamn right.

Bullshit, yeah,
you were maybe wounded

when you fell over
your bayonet when
you were drunk.

(Laughing)

Eddie:
So, as our obsession
sort of increased

we were trying to, in sort
of an anthropological way,

collect all the data we could
on Peter and Raymond.

One time we did follow Ray

and it was like trying
to catch the sasquatch,

you know, this
fabled creature

that ambled
through the woods.

So, you know, I kind
of snuck up beside him

with my little wig on,
and then, you know,

Mitch is being the
expert photographer

going...
(Imitating camera shutter)
(Camera shutter clicking)

(Camera shutter clicking)

Eddie:
Peter... I never
saw Peter outside
the building,

except for very early on
when we first met him

and he was chatting me up.

(Thuds of slaps
and punches landing)

Oh, my god, like,
someone's sitting in
the room with them?

Tony was the
intermittent roommate.

He was a scary guy.

He was your classic
redneck from the South.

Peter: (On recording)
Our Tony is seeing
what it's about.

Ray:
I already told Tony

that I thought
you was a liar and
a thief and a cheat.

I know, that's what...
that's what I started
to say to him,

and he said, and you
said, "No, you have
never said that."

Now you're saying it.
Oh, I certainly did!

I said you're a liar
and a thief and a cheat.

All right, Tony,
you see what it is.

Tony was used as
sort of this, like,

objective force
that was a witness.

He was the judge and jury.

(Laughing)
It was... it was
very strange.

Peter:
In the meantime, shut up.

Both Tony and I
want to go to sleep.

So shut your
fucking mouth!

Mitch:
I used to make a lot of
mix tapes for friends

and I almost always,
on these tapes,

I would put little snippets
of Pete and Ray in between.

So as soon as friends
would hear this,

they're like,
"What the hell was that?"

Eddie:
You know, we'd
dub a tape or two

for our really
closest friends

and then they'd be
like, "Dude, can I
bring a six pack

and come by on
Thursday night?"

It'd be, like,
"Man, the rent is due.

So, when the rent's due
there's always a war,
so come on by."

Peter:
Where are the
cheques I wrote you
for the rent?

I want them.

Ray:
None of your
fucking business.

They're no good.

There is no
rent paid.

I catch you touching
my fucking shit
and so help me...

Ah, there is no rent...
I'll stick a fucking...

Goodnight sweet Prince.
I'll stick a fucking...

Oh, shut up!
You said you would
be quiet, then do it.

You want to stick me
with that fork?

You get back in there.

Touch my shit
and I will...
I...

Nobody ever touched
your shit, asshole.

You lying son
of a bitch, you.

(Imitating Ray)
"You lying son
of a bitch!"

(Laughter in background)
You know how
sick you are?

I don't give a shit.

Take your fucking
cheque and stick them
up your fucking ass.

Mitch:
We went from more of
a... passive observer

to... provoking things.

(Whirring of a rotary dial)

Eddie: (On recording)
You're calling them?

Oh, jeez.
(Laughing)

Mitch:
You going to hold the mike?

You hold the mike.

(Phone ringing)

(Clicking)
Ray:
Hello?

Mitch: (On recording)
Hey, Ray, say,
this is Ardell again.

I just... I forgot to
leave a message last time
when I spoke with you.

Ray:
This is who?

Mitch:
This is Ardell. I was
asking for Tony before.

Ray:
Oh, yeah.

Mitch:
Is he still a queer?

Ray:
Hey... Hey, listen,
you son of a bitch.

(Chuckling)
You're... You're...

You're not very fucking
smart if you thought
Tony was queer.

Mitch:
Well, you know,
that's okay with me.

I don't mind
if Tony's queer.

I was just wondering...

Ray:
Hey, look, you
asshole, forget it.

Hey, look, I was a mean
motherfucker in my time
and I still am.

Mitch:
Oh, I know you...

Ray: (Stammering)
Don't... don't ever
suggest a thing like
that again. Ever.

Mitch:
You must be queer
too then, Ray.

Ray:
Hey, you cocksucker.

I'll tell you what,
you fucking piece of shit,

how would you
like me now to...
(Buzzing)

I'll show you
what a queer is.

Mitch:
What should I do,
grab my ankles, Ray?

You're just a little man,
I knew you were a little man.

Ray:
Hey! Don't call me
little man, you fucking
piece of shit.

I tell you what,
you're a piece of shit.

(Clicking)

(Geese honking)

Here they are!

You know I've
always wondered
if there's stuff...

In fact, not only
do I wonder,

I know there's stuff
that we recorded that...
I never found...

We don't have.
Yeah,
Right.

in here somewhere.

At the end of
"Ween" probably,

there's, like, 20 minutes
that we've never heard

since 1985-7
or whatever.
(Laugh)
Could be.

Could be, I know.
I know, I know.

Yeah, there's some
precious stuff on here.

Some of this stuff...
"Don't Call Me Goodnight".

(Imitating Ray)
"Don't call
me goodnight."

Hello, you little...
(Imitating Peter)
"I'm saying goodnight."

"Don't call me goodnight,
you cocksucker."

"Hello,
You Little Queer."

"If you want
to talk to me...

Both:
...then shut your
fucking mouth."

"Someday I Will
Kill You."

(Chuckling)

That's one of
my favourites.

Mitch:
At the end of our stay
at the Pepto-Bismol Palace,

we had compiled at least
14 hours of material.

Man:
Hit... hit the old
"play" there.

(Chuckling)

"I will kill you."

(Chuckling)

(Laughing)

"You lying son of a bitch!"

(Laughing)

"Here you are, darling."

"Don't call me darling."

"Well then, don't
act like a fool."

"Goddamn it, shut your
little fucking mouth up!"

(Laughing)

"You always giggle falsely."

"You fucking piece of shit."

(Whispering)
"Shut up, little man."

"You cocksucker!"

"Shut up, little man!"
"Little man..."

"Shut up!"

"Uh, I thought you said
you were going to be quiet."

It's such genius.

Just the... the way they
throw the words around.

But they're so
joyless, you know,
just sort of like...

(Monotone)
"You cocksucker,
you piece of sh..."

You know, just may as
well be saying, like,

"I love you, honey," or...

It's so close to that.

Male voice: (On TV)
An ordinary, routine
domestic day.

Ray: (On recording)
You're a lying
son of a bitch.

You ain't never done
a decent thing in
your fucking life.

Peter:
Shut up, little man!

I got... I got a decent
dinner ready.

Nothing happened
with the dinner because
you crucified it.

You ruined it.

Goddamn you.

Rosenthal:
Pete and Ray functioned

very much like
a married couple.

A lot of the arguments
were about food preparation

and money arguments...

As a prototype of
all relationships

distilled down into this,

you know,
this eternal battle,

uh-h... it... you know,
it's unparalleled.

Why are these guys
living together?

What is the context?

There's definitely
a back story going on,

which isn't necessarily
obvious on the surface.

They're very different.

One is a homosexual,
one seems to despise
homosexuals.

Ray: (On recording)
I don't say Hitler was
right, but goddamn it,

all fucking queers,
they ought to die!

The big question
has always been,

"Is Ray a self-loathing
homosexual?"

Ray:
You goddamn queer
cocksucker.

Shut your fucking
mouth and go to bed.

I must have,
what, you know,

seven or eight
hours of material

and it's almost
all, you know,

will burn the hair
off your ears.

You know, it's just,
every bit of it is shocking

even the 50th time
you hear it.

Ray:
The last... the best thing
that can happen to me,

according to my doctors,
is for I to say,

"Goodbye, you cocksucker!"
and never see you again.

I'll be so fucking
glad when you're gone.

Peter:
Goodnight.

Ray:
You ain't a human
being, you fucking...

Peter:
Goodnight.

Ray:
Don't call me goodnight,
you cocksucker.

( ¶¶ )

Eddie:
Probably about
two years after I'd
moved out of the Pepto,

I was living back
in the Midwest

and I got a phone call.

"Hey, this is
Seymour Glass from
'Bananafish' magazine,"

which was this fantastic
sort of underground
culture magazine,

and I said, "Whoa, hey, man.
What's going on?"

And he said,
"I want to speak to you

about some famous
ex-neighbours of yours,
Raymond and Peter."

And I thought...

"How do you know about
Raymond and Peter?"

And he said, "Oh, man,
everybody out here
in San Francisco

is listening to these
tapes you guys made."

Ray:
I am a man.

I'm a decent fucking
human being, a man.

Peter:
Ray, nobody else
is saying anything.
You're the only one...

Ray:
Then shut your fucking
mouth, you son of a bitch.

I had actually
shared a tape

with my good friend
Rich Whitaker

who was in a band
called Poopshovel.

He shared the tape
with some other folks.

You know, it just kind of
spread like wildfire

amongst not only
our friends,

but it just... friends
of friends of friends,

people sharing
it with anyone.

It really moved on its own;
had a life of its own.

Eddie:
The initial spread of
"Shut Up, Little Man"

all happened pre-digital,
pre-internet

and was essentially spread
from kind of obsessive,

subterranean network
of tape traders.

All right.

This taking me
so far back.

I don't even remember
the last time
I listened to a tape.

( ¶¶ )

Oh, boy.

( ¶¶ )

Let's see what we've got here.

"Chet Gets His Phone Tapped:
Parts 1, 2 and 3".

"The Prank Tape".

"Phunny Phriggin
Phone Pranks".

"Calls To Rednecks".

"Pranks For The Memories".

And, of course,
"Raymond and Peter".

One 'zine mentioned
something called:
"Shut Up, Little Man"

saying, "If you love
prank calls, this is
the next level.

It's about as
real as it gets.
You'll love it."

I'm, like, okay,
this is the Holy Grail.

Here it is, this is
the thing I will just
not give up for anybody.

But at the time I listened
to it, I hated it.

All it was were just,
to me, monotonous
rants by two guys,

conversations
that went nowhere.

Why am I bothering
with any of this?

This is...
this is horrible.

Found myself listening
to it two days later.

Peter: (On recording)
You are a rotten
little liar man.

Lady. Pardon me, lady.

Levy:
All of a sudden
it made sense.

I could follow along the
drama that was going on,

the conflict between
Raymond and Peter.

I laughed, but I felt
really bad 'cause
I was laughing.

It was like I was
an accomplice just
by listening.

And by the time it
was over I was hooked.

And I said my goal
from here on out

is to tell as many people
about this as I can.

(Rhythmic clicking)

Gibbs:
We had this network
of people

who would exchange all
these audio verité tapes.

And it was all about
the cassette tape.

And at that time, I mean,

cassette tapes were,
like, everything.

And there was a tremendous
amount of material

that was going around.

Rosenthal:
Audio verité is
audio that is true.

It's real audio

that's oftentimes
recorded surreptitiously,

oftentimes unearthed
or discovered,

and then disseminated.

Orson Welles:
We know a remote
farm in Lincolnshire.

Every July,
peas grow there.

Man:
Can you emphasize
a bit "in"? "In July".

Welles:
Why? That doesn't
make any sense.

That's just stupid.
"In July"...

Love to know how you
emphasize "in" in "in July".

Impossible.
Meaningless.

Man 2:
I think all they were
thinking about was that
they didn't want to...

Welles:
He isn't thinking.

Too much directing
around here.

We know a little place
in the American Far West

where Charlie Briggs chops
up the finest prairie-fed
beef and tastes...

This is a lot of shit,
you know that.

(Click)

Brunetti:
Wow, that's really
Orson Welles,

That's the way
he really was.

I mean, it is... and it's
a distorted view of him

from, like,
late in his life

and he's being humiliated,
like, reading commercials,

but... you know,
you do feel like you're
getting a glimpse

into a side of him
you will not see in film.

Audio verité is also
a little bit about voyeurism.

It presents this
opportunity for us

to peek into other
people's lives

and hear a little glimpse,
a little audio snapshot.

Woman:
Yes, and good evening,
Trademark G.

And good evening
to you, dear listeners.

It is me,
Trademark G.

And joined
with me, one...

Frillypants.
Frilly.

We have a show here that's
all about found sounds.

Boy: (On recording)
Dad, do you need any help?
(Banging)

Dad:
Well, of course not!

Of course, I needed
some help before.

(Banging)

God, I hate this...
cheap piece of shit!

Spend the $300 and buy
the right fucking tool,

the fucking moron.

Trademark G.:
We're going to be joined
by so many people tonight.

People recorded that maybe
didn't know they were

or did know,

but didn't know
that they were going
to have their recordings

shared to the entire world.
Frillypants:
Great.

All right.
I can't wait.

Shall we do it?
Let's.
Here we go.

Right here...
On the Sound
of Plaid.

( ¶¶ )

Woman: (On recording)
Geoffrey, it is...
you know,

I don't know how
many people who don't
believe in abortion,

who don't want to do it.
What?

Man: (On recording)
It's the one
thing I can't do.

Woman:
Oh, come on, but we talked
about having children.

Boy:
¶ Connor likes to have
sex with animals ¶

¶ Connor likes to have sex
with animals ¶

(Phone ringing)

Man 2:
Yeah?
(High-pitched voice)
Where's my father?

Huh?
Where's my father?

Your father is in...
your mother's asshole.

Yeah?
You fucking bum.

(Thud)

I never had heard of
the term "audio verité"

until I had read
some articles

that our recordings
had inspired.

This guy named
Seymour Glass

was interested
in the material

and he wanted to distribute
them in his magazine.

(Tape clicking, rewinding)

Eddie:
Along with, I think it
was "Bananafish" No.5,

Seymour published six
volumes of recordings.

Did, like, 500 copies
of each of the volumes.

(Cassettes clicking)

And they sold out in
two or three months.

(Cash register ringing)

( ¶¶ )

Ray:
I don't want
to hurt you...

Peter:
Sit down. Sit down
and shut up.

I am perfectly capable
of killing you.

Then shut up
and be a man.

Then you shut your
fucking mouth...
Be a man.

Be a man.
Then shut your
fucking mouth.

Then you
shut yours.

Shut your fucking
mouth, you goddamn
queer cocksucker.

Shut your
fucking mouth!

The next time I'm
going to pop you.

I'm going to pop you
if you don't shut up.

Now, stop it.

You've drunk four
litres of wine today.

I'll tell you what,
you cocksucker.

You try to hit me
and I will kill you.

Initially we had
this disclaimer on
the back of the tapes

that said, "If you want to
use for artistic purposes,

feel free to do so,
but please notify us."

You know, the bottom line
is, we just said, you know,

"If anybody wants to use
this again for artistic
purposes, feel free."

People started taking
the material

and doing really
cool things with it.

That part was really
exciting for me.

Because they were
getting juice,

they were getting
creative inspiration
from the recordings.

Clowes:
I can't remember who asked
me to ever draw these guys,

but whoever it was,

I'm sure I was
immediately amenable to it,

because I had spent
so much time listening
to these tapes

and I had such
a clear vision

of how these guys looked.

They feel very much
like the odd couple,

or some kind of
sitcom characters,

pushed to a degree
that they're both
more realistic

and more cartoonish
at the same time.

Brunetti:
Because I'd been
doing comics for
a while at that point

and I kind of had
a reputation as this guy

that did these sort of
sick, twisted strips.

I think in general,
like, I tend to,

I wouldn't say
relate to Peter,

I think he is truly,
like, the definition
of an asshole,

but I somehow understand
the way his mind works,

which scares me.

So, I think the
appeal of it...

well, probably,
like, at first,

it is going to appeal
to your misanthropic side,

to just kind of
laughing at people.

The deeper
you get into it,

like, there's actually
more to it than that

and you can kind of
keep on exploring it.

Clowes:
At the basic core it's all
about their relationship

and I think that's a...
that's a universal thing.

You know, it's about
two people trying to live

and have some kind
of sense of identity

that is constantly
being reappraised
by this other person.

And it's like
a microcosm

of how we all relate
to each other.

(Whimsical ¶¶)

Ray: (On recording)
I am not going to die.

I will tell you
if I'm dead.

Last time...

I think I walked away
without saying this,

but I'm saying
it now.

Anybody fucks
with my shit

while I'm in the
fucking hospital...

they're going
to answer to me.

Any cocksucker
that steals from me

or fucks with my shit...

I'm going
to dump the shit...

I'll kick the shit
out of any cocksucker...

We became so obsessed with
the "Shut Up, Little Man"

that we... we drew them.

We started to draw
them all the time.

We were just drawing
pictures of what we
imagined they'd look like.

And some people,
they'd just hear screeching.

They don't realize
the art that is there.

They don't grasp
what we do.

And so, we decided
to bridge that gap.

We would build puppets.

Peter: (On recording)
You want to stick me
with that fork?

You get back in there.

Ray:
Touch my shit
and I will...

N-Nobody ever touched
your shit, asshole.

You lying
son of a bitch.

(Imitating Ray)
"Oh, you lying
son of a bitch."

You know how
sick you are?

I'm not sick.

Tony is having
to listen to this.

Mike Mitchell:
What was the perfect
storm for these guys
to be doing it

and someone recording
it at the same time.

It's really fascinating.

And again, it's not
fun to think of how
illegal that might be

and how invasive it is.

I don't want to
think about that.

I don't want to know
what happened before
or after the argument.

Just to hear them is...
is just bliss.

I just love it.

(Radio clicking on)
Peter: (On recording)
Shut up, little man!

( ¶¶ )

You know
how sick you are?

Isn't that neat?

( ¶¶ )

So, Bob Cazaly

passed out copies of
"Shut Up, Little Man".

Of course we spent
a weekend laughing
about it.

Ursula:
Well, yeah, my dad brought
it home and I thought
it was pretty great.

I mean, I think
I shouldn't have
listened to that

maybe when I was 13.

Peter: (On recording)
You said you would
be quiet, then do it.

Bob Mothersbaugh:
When I was working on
this song, you know,

I'm lazy... I didn't
want to write lyrics.

So, I thought, well,

why don't we just
use some lines
from "Little Man"?

Peter: (On recording)
I will shut up when you do!

( ¶¶ )

Mitch:
Oh, it's amazing.

Look at just these silly
little recordings we made

never assuming they would
amount to anything.

Now, all of a sudden,
it's escalated

and it snowballed
into this enormous
kind of phenomenon.

Ray: (On recording)
You think
everything's fun.
It's not.

Eddie:
A lot of articles
started appearing

in major publications.

Ray: (On recording)
I am the human race

and I will not
take it any more!

Eddie:
It's like "Vanity Fair",
"The LA Times"...

Ray: (On recording)
You're such a little fool!

Eddie:
"Spin Magazine"
did an article.

Mitch:
Once the tapes
were issued,

that's when we were...
got a call

from Johan Kugelberg
of Matador Records.

Now, Matador Records
at the time was, like,
the hottest label.

You know,
Pavement was on there,

Teenage Fanclub,
The Fall.

A subsidiary of that
wants to put up
"Shut Up, Little Man"?

Perfect.

Peter: (On recording)
I don't want to hurt you.

Mitch:
Well, the end result
was the CD.

72 minutes of...

the most vitriolic
and abusive material

you've had the displeasure
of hearing.

Peter:
Sorry, darling.
Ray:
I despise all queers.

I am the human race,
you fucking queer!

You're a cheap
little bitch.

If you want to talk
to me, then shut
your fucking mouth.

Shut up, little man!

Time to go to bed.

( ¶¶ )

I want to go to sleep!
Now, shut up!

Wow. This is great.

There's...
a fellowship of fans.

So, I was loving it.
I loved it.
(Mouse clicking)

Man: (On recording)
Sorry.

Christian Bale: (On recording)
No, don't just be sorry,

think for one
fucking second!

Am I going to walk
around and rip your
fucking lights down?

In the middle
of a scene?

I mean, the "Shut Up,
Little Man" phenomenon

would have happened
a lot faster

had the internet
existed at that time.

Christian Bale:
Do I fucking walk
around and rip down...

No, shut the
fuck up, Bruce.

Do I what... no!
(Mouse clicking)

Fuck.
(Hard electronic ¶¶)

(Timed to music)
What the fuck
is it with you?

Man:
I was looking at the lights.

Christian Bale:
Fuck. What the fuck
is it with you?

Man:
I was looking at the lights.

Fuck! What the fuck
is it with you?

I was looking
at the lights.

Fuck! What the fuck
is it with you?

I was looking
at the lights.

It's fucking
distracting.

All:
Oh, good!

It's fucking
distracting.

All:
Oh, good!

Now, the machinations
are in place

for things to go
viral so quickly.

Christian Bale:
What the fuck
are you doing?

Peter:
Shut up,
little man!

No! No! Don't
shut me up.

Nobody asked you
to say anything.

Eddie:
"Shut Up, Little Man",
sort of remarkably
proliferated out

in this strange,
kind of primitive way

compared to what we're
dealing with now, you know.

Gibbs:
A friend of mine
received a tape

and it said on it,
"Old Men Fighting".

I immediately took
it home and started...
I remember that day,

just started...
put on the headphones

and started transcribing:

"Shut up, little man.
Shut up, little man.

"You dirty fucking
piece of shit.

You dirty fucking
piece of shit."

Goddamn you...

Goddamn you,
shut up! Shut up!

Then shut your
fucking mouth.

Shut up.
You shut up.

No.
You shut up.
No.
Shut up...

Eddie:
So, I got a call
from a playwright

in Los Angeles
named Gregg Gibbs.

He had evidently done a...
a short two-person play.

Shut up,
little man.

Then shut your
fucking mouth.
Shut up, little man.

(Indistinct shouting)

Gibbs:
There's something about
the human condition

that I find
really compelling.

This nitty gritty
human condition

that's... the opposite
of what you normally
see in the media.

Audience:
(Laughing)

(Screaming)

Audience:
(Laughing, yelling)

Gibbs:
I always intended, like,
to make a full play.

After about a year,
year and a half,

I had worked with
the material so much,

I felt like I had a play.

At that point,
we got in touch with
Eddie Lee Sausage.

And I got on
the phone with him

and of course the first
thing he says to me:

"You fucking
piece of shit."

Gibbs was... he's a
pretty interesting guy.

He had a lot of juice.

Really enthusiastic.

Effervescent,
bubbling over.

Almost maniacal.

And I was just like,
"Sounds great,
absolutely, you know,

let's do a play."

Mixed voices:
Shut u-u-u-u-up!

Shut up!
Shut up!

Shut up!
Shut up!

You shut up.
Shut up.

You shut up.
Then you shut up.

You shut up.
Then you
shut up.

Then you...
Then you shut up.

Then do it.
Then do it.

Then do it.
Then do it.

Shut up!
Then do it.

Shut up.
Good, shut your
fucking mouth.

Gibbs:
So I flew Eddie in

and we kind of became
friends, you know, in a way.

( ¶¶ )

And then he also
brought tapes to sell

and suddenly on the tapes,
when you opened it up,

it no longer said,

"You may freely
use this material for
whatever you wish."

It was replaced by:
"Copyright: Eddie Lee
Sausage and Mitchell Lee."

Interviewer:
Why did you feel like
you needed to copyright
the recordings?

We felt compelled to,
because it was, you know,

all of a sudden
people started using
it and wanting it...

and wanting to use it

and were asking us about
legal aspects of it

and felt like,
what we got to take...

do something about this
to make it more ours.

Well, do what you got
to do, you know.

I have my play, which to me
is original material.

You know, it's
all manipulated.

I never really do
verbatim the tapes.

Man:
You said you were
going to be quiet.

Well, do it!
Do it then.

You want to
talk to me...

then shut your
fucking mouth!

Eddie:
Well, the strangest part was,

the night before the play,

I'd actually been
in San Francisco...

(Tape rewinding)

and Mitchell and I
had gone

and found the real
Peter Haskett
in the Tenderloin.

Mitch:
We waited for
quite a long time.

Eddie:
Two, three hours maybe.

And literally just
on the verge of us
giving up I went...

then up... up the
street right here

came Peter Haskett.

So we had had
the record company
cut a royalty cheque,

so to speak, for Peter.

I personally felt
an obligation, one,

to have a conversation
with Peter about it

and just say, "Hey,
look, this thing's...

"these recordings
we made of you
yelling at Raymond

"have gotten...

"have sort of
spread like wildfire.

Um, and we have no
idea what's going to
happen with this," A.

And B, to give
him some money,

because he was
entitled to it, I felt.

I think it kind of...

it was a little creepy
for him at some...
at one point.

When we were, we were
revealing details
about his life

and his history and:
"Well, how do you
know that?

How do you know?"

"Well, we used to live
next door to you."

He was... he wouldn't
acknowledge it initially.

He-he said,
like, "Ray?

Ray and I never fought."

So, it was really weird.

It was kind of overcoming
this obstacle with him

to get him to acknowledge
the fact that, yes,
indeed they fought.

We have this
material on tape.

You might say
we have some
proof of that.
There's...

(Laughing)
Yeah, yeah,
there was this...

there's a CD...
out in the public

and you're on it and
you've become this...

sort of
underground icon.

Eddie:
And never... I don't think
it ever occurred to us

that he wouldn't even
acknowledge the basic,

simple elemental
thing, that these
guys were fighting

and at each
other's throats.

It was so hard
to get past that

and try to, you know,
explain to him,

like, this thing
had become a cult.

Interviewer:
Did you record the...
this meeting?

Did he know
about that?

I did have this
really inexpensive
little tape recorder.

I don't recall
if I had it...

I think for a while I
had it under the table.

I was doing it
rather clandestinely.

(Indistinct voices
on recording)

Interviewer:
Did he take
the money?

No.

Peter did not... did
not accept the money.

I felt really
disappointed by that.

I just felt like,
oh man, you know...

His rejection
of the cheque?
Yeah.
Yeah.

This was a
chance for us

to share with
him, you know.
I do too...

Yeah, yeah, like
I said, you know,

sort of morally,
this sort of inner...

this ethical thing for me
was, I felt obligated.

I really did, I just
wanted to be like,

okay, you know,
this is the least we
can do for this guy.

And then eventually
toward the end
of the evening,

we just said,
you know, "We've got
to get going, Peter."

"Well, fellas,
we could get a room."

You know, we're like,
"No, we're good."

It was a rainy
night and...

we watched him
just kind of stumble
across the street

back to the Taylor Hotel,
and we went on our way.

I am perfectly
capable of kicking
the shit out of you!

Then shut up
and be a man.

Eddie:
And here I was
in Los Angeles the
following night,

sitting in a crowd
of some famous people

in a full house

watching people portray
Peter, you know, on stage.

And it was very strange.

And a little
uncomfortable.

(Thuds)

Break it up, guys.

Break it up.

Eddie:
I got a really
strong sense

that this felt like it was
totally out of our control.

Our role as pivotal
players had changed.

Shut your fucking mouth!

(Indistinct yelling)

(Distorted ¶¶)

(Spitting)

(Applause)

Gibbs:
During the end of the run

I remember sitting down
with Eddie and Mitchell

and we did
a handshake deal

and decided that we'd
go 50-50 if anything
came out of this.

Eddie:
In the audience,
there were a lot of
film industry people

and one of those people
was a woman named...

Peter: (On recording)
Pardon me, lady.

And she had
a development company

and actually
contacted us

about optioning
the film rights for
"Shut Up, Little Man".

After the run of the play
I went to go meet with them,

and I went in with all
of the exhibition stuff

and I did this full pitch.

And how this is "Odd Couple"
meets "Waiting For Godot"

meets...
takes acid in hell.

You know, it was
that kind of, like...

I did this full
Hollywood pitch

and they came back to me
and they said they love it.

(Jet engines roaring)

Mitch:
So the first time
we went down there

they put us up in this
really nice hotel.

Eddie:
And it was really,
really fun.

I mean, Mitch and I
have always had a lot
of fun together.

( ¶¶ )

Hollywoo-o-od!

Mitch:
We would go to these
sort of boardrooms

and talk about
various aspects,

various elements of
the whole phenomenon

and how things happened
and how they developed.

We actually signed
a development deal with...

Peter: (On recording)
Lady.
...Films.

Mitch:
Wow, they want to make
a movie about our lives.

You know, who wouldn't
that appeal to?

Eddie:
So, Gregg was going
to write a treatment,
basically.

He was going to get
$20,000 to write
the treatment.

I got this sort of
hysterical call from...

Peter: (On recording)
Pardon me, lady.

...one day and she said,

"Eddie, Eddie...

"Gregg Gibbs just
stormed into my office

"and was making demands
about me giving him money.

Who the fuck
is this Gibbs?"

That's a complete lie.
That's a complete lie.

Storming in there
and getting $20,000
did not happen.

I did not get
a cent from them.

"Who the fuck is
this Gregg Gibbs?"

And I never made
any demands on them.

I wasn't in a position to
demand anything from them.

You know, I was trying
to explain to her, like,

actually he doesn't
own anything.

We copyrighted
the material.

We trademarked the name
"Shut Up, Little Man".

Basically, they did
what everyone in
Hollywood tries to do

when they have a project:
they cut people out.

They both got very greedy.

You're a cheap,
little son of a bitch!

You know, I called and
checked in with Gregg.

"Listen, Eddie, I created
this phenomenon."

(Slap)

Eddie, he's a very
vindictive guy.
(Grunt)

And then he said,
"I created you."

(Slap)

You know, he's not
a decent human being.

Then shut up
and be a man!

This guy is completely
out of his gourd.

There was a falling out.

He was fired by...
Peter: (On recording)
Pardon me, lady.

She called me back
and said, "I...

I've decided
I can't work with the guy."

Man: (On Film)
...request for $10,000.

I didn't know
what to think.

I mean, it was
really a big blow to me.

I went in there,
pitched it,

I did this play,
I set up this deal,

and they're cutting me
out of it, you know.

Peter: (On recording)
Shut up, little man.

You've lost.

( ¶¶ )

(Typing clicks)

Eddie:
I'm back in San Francisco

and Mitchell's going
to fly in and meet me here

and we're going
to go walking around

and see the old sights,
go the old
Pepto-Bismol Palace.

Sort of have the
"Shut Up, Little Man"

tourist tour experience,
I suppose,

and I'm looking
forward to seeing Mitch.

Um, I have a little
surprise for him.

I actually found the
address of Tony Newton

the only surviving
living link to the
"Shut Up, Little Man"

and Peter and Raymond
experience.

Excuse me.

Exactly who did
you try to call?

Hey, brother.
Hey, man.
Hey, man.

Good to see you.
What's going on?
I'm here.

Okay, oh, 'cause
there's... Tenderloin.
Check this out.

Yeah, because it's
just south of Market.

Yeah.
You go, um...

Uh, go live
south of Market...
South of Market.

(Chuckle)
You're on welfare.

Looks like a...
Residential hotel.

We'll have to go
there and find him.

(Jazz ¶¶)

( ¶¶ )

Interviewer:
What are you
hoping to get

from your meeting
with Tony?

Going to meet Tony...
it's uncomfortable actually.

But there's sort
of fascination

about more information
about Peter and Raymond.

What's the essence
of the relationship?

Were they lovers?
Were they not lovers?

And you know meeting
Tony is like,

he's the actual only
living link on the planet

besides Mitchell and I,
but he actually
lived with them.

But, you know, all that
being said, you know,

Tony is a pretty scary,
disturbing character,

so I feel like we're going
to have to tread lightly.

Mitch:
Uh, my Uncle Tony
lives here in 301.

I just want to go
and say hi to him.

Man:
Okay, I need your ID.

Mitch:
Sure.

(Knocking on door)

(Indistinct whispering)

(Door opening)
Mitch:
Hi, Tony?

Tony:
Yep.
Eddie:
Are you Tony?

We... we're working
on a film project based
on Raymond Huffman.

Remember
old Raymond?

Yes.
You used to
work with him?

Yeah.

And we were wondering
if you would...

if you would
be interviewed
for the film?

Mitch:
Could we talk to you
for a little bit?

Eddie:
We could pay you
for your time.

Tony:

Eddie:
Come on, man,
it's your chance
for fame and glory.

Eddie & Mitch:
(Laughter)

Mitch:
Well, how...

Well, you know,
it's...

Who... who did?

Oh, they did?

Eddie:
All the time, right?

(Door closing)
(Whispering)
Oh, fuck.

(Siren blaring)

Mitch:
I think the first
experience I had

with somebody
really... like,

feeling like somebody was
preying on the material...

(Knocking on door)

...was my experience
with my friend at the
time, David Stein.

Well, well, well.
(Laughing)

Hi, buddy.
Good to see you.

Oh, my God.

Mitch:
A person living in the
apartment below him

was affiliated
with Zebra Films.

Peter: (On recording)
Little man.
...became familiar

with the "Shut Up, Little Man"
recordings

and approached
David and said,

"Hey, we should try and
make a movie out of this."

And next thing I know,
David is coming
to me saying, "Hey...

Peter: (On recording)
Little man.
"...and I here

are going to contact
Peter, we're going
to make a movie..."

I was just completely
blown away by this.
Bewildered.

I think the last
time you and I
had any contact

was, like, 1994.
Okay.

'Cause '92, '92,
I was living in
south of Market,

and that's when I had met...
Peter: (On recording)
Little man.

And that's when,
you know, I turned him
on to the recordings.

He's like, "Oh wow,
this is great!

How cool. Let's go
make this movie."
Right, right...

You know, so on
and so forth.

And then that's
when you and I
became separated

because of, you know,
what we did
Right, right.

and how we went
about doing it.
Right, right...

I remember once
you were exposed
to the material...

you... I don't know,
it was because of
your association

with...
Peter: (On recording)
Little man.

I don't remember
the details...
...He wanted to make the movie

and I was, like,
"All right, well, I'll
help you make the movie."

Uh-huh.
But it was like...

And then we talked
to his entertainment lawyer

and she's like,
"Look, if you guys want
to make this movie,

you've got to get
his release."
Mmm-hmm.

You know, because
the recordings that Eddie
and Mitchell made,

they obviously didn't
get any permission
Mmm-hmm.

to record them, so as far
as they're concerned,

they really don't
have a concern.

And I was, like,
"Oh, really?"

You know, it was
kind of a personal
attack on me

Yeah.
from you
at the time.
Yeah.

Because it was like,
you know, you...

I remember we had
this sort of tearful
exchange almost,
Right.

because we had
become so close.
Yeah.

And saying,
"David, you're...

choosing the film
over our friendship."
Yeah.

And... and then,

that was what
you chose to do.
That was it.

Oh, well...
Would you have done
anything different?

Oh, I would have
never done it.

I would have not
certainly thrown away
my relationship with you,

but... you know,
you're 21 years old,
22 years old,

you're hungry,
you want to...

you want to get your
first movie made,

you're in San Francisco,
you know, all that stuff...

And, at that time,
you know, anything
and everything went.

Rosenthal:
I was just a fan

of the "Shut Up, Little Man"
tapes like everybody else.

And when the comic
books would come out
I would buy those,

and you know, I just...
I loved the stuff.

But it wasn't until I was
contacted by Gregg Gibbs,

who had done the play...

He had the idea
to promote a film project.

So he came to me
and he showed me the
script for the play

and he showed me
a video of the play.

I was fascinated

and got very excited about
the idea of doing a film.

I had a grand vision
for the film.

I wanted Brando
and Nicholson

as the... as...
as Pete and Ray.

We could build this set
and we'd get these guys

and we'd just get
the alcohol flowing

and make it real

and we'd just shoot
for three days straight

until we get it

and then we'd just...

have the most amazing
movie ever made.

The whole issue
of ownership and
rights was crucial.

I hired a big-time
Los Angeles
entertainment attorney

to sort through
all of the issues

and determine what
the proper course was.

The kids made the tapes,

but sent them out
with an anti-copyright
notice on them.

Then when they later
claimed copyright,

the question is,
"Can you do that?"

Can you... can you change
your mind like that

once you've let
the cat out of the bag?

The other question is,

can you copyright
material that's recorded
surreptitiously?

Then there was
the other issue

of a contract that
was alleged to exist.

Peter, since
he's still alive,

you need to get him
to sign a release
saying that,

"Yes, you can use
my likeness and image..."
and things like that.

Now, how we went
about that...

No, I don't know
if you know the
true story or not.

I want to hear
the story about that.
Okay, well...

Yeah, we knock on his
door and, "Who is it?"

(Laughing)
Right.

And we're like,
uh, we're like,

"Yes, it's David Stein and...
Peter: (On recording)
Little man.

We want to talk to you

about doing a story
about your life."

Uh-huh.

So, we go in
and of course,

you know, he's got
this single bed,

the empty plastic
bottles of vodka
and the orange soda.

So yeah, we're,
like, five, six
drinks into it

and, sure enough,
um, I went to use
the bathroom

and I come back and I see...
Peter: (On recording)
Little man.

...there he is,
just making out
with Peter.

Oh, Jesus.
(Laughing)

He makes out...
He makes out
with him...
No way!

No way.
And sure enough,
sure enough,

we got Peter's
signature.
Eddie:
Oh, my God.

No shit!
And the rest
is history.

Mitch:
What is it going to take?

Rosenthal:
They took Pete out,

got him drunk, and then got
him to sign this document.

(Lips smacking)

Well, you can't
do that, you know?

So, there was question
about every aspect
of this situation.

And it seemed to me
the only way
to unify the rights

was to make direct
contact with the...

the subjects themselves.

(Eerie ¶¶)

( ¶¶ )

(Vultures crowing,
chattering)

Stein:
At that point,
it was like...

this looks like
to be a free-for-all

and whoever makes
their project first

is the first one
that gets made

and you're going to
have multiple people
making multiple projects.

Rosenthal:
I got a call from
George Cothran,

who called me
out of the blue

and started asking
me questions about
"Shut Up, Little Man".

I started getting into
the whole nitty-gritty

of the whole story,
the guy who, like, engaged me.

Rosenthal:
I asked him,
"Who are you?

Why are you asking me
these questions?"

"Oh, I'm just a fan.
I'm just an interested guy."

Close to the end
of it, he says,

"Oh, I'm taping all
this for an article."

And I said, "W... hey...

"Dude, I didn't know
I was on record.

What do you mean?
What is this?"

Mitch:
Ultimately George Cothran
from the "SF Weekly"

got in touch with us,
he wanted...

telling us he wanted
to do a cover story
of the whole thing.

A recap of everything
that's transpired thus far

with the whole
"Shut Up, Little Man"
phenomenon.

And we thought,
"Well, this...
(Laughing)

"Hey, cool,
that's great, you know.

Come on out."

Rosenthal:
I kind of told him where
I was with my project

and then all of
a sudden I realized

that he was trying
to find Pete, I was
trying to find Pete,

and I really stepped
up the search.

Rosenthal: (On video)
Well, if the agreement
seems reasonable to you...

Umm...

we could sign that
and I could give
you the money,

and then we could
talk for a few minutes

and then I'll
leave you alone.

Okay.

Rosenthal:
Okay, show this
cheque here.

And then I just
hand it to you.

So... it will be good.

Pardon?

Rosenthal:
It will be good,
I assure you of that.

Peter:
Mm-hmm.

My interviews with
Pete were done
in three segments:

one where I reached
him myself,

and then, I guess
it's the next day,

I come back and
George Cothran,

coincidentally,
we show up at
the same time.

Uh, I need
to find out, uh...

where everybody
got to know me and...

Man:
Can I tell
you the story?

Because I know the
whole story.
What's this
all about? Yes.

Okay.
Please do.
Okay.

What is your
name again?
My name is
George Cothran.

George Kaufman.
So anyway,

this is as best as I can
explain it, Mr. Haskett.

In 1987,

you were living at
237 Steiner Street
in apartment 3.

Correct?
Correct.
Yeah.

Two young gentlemen
in their mid
to late twenties,

named Mitchell D
and Eddie Lee Sausage,

moved in next
door to you.

And some of
the tumultuous
disagreements

you used to have
with your roommates,

Raymond Huffman
and Tony Newton,

would... they could hear
it in their apartment

because the walls
were thin

and your arguments
sometimes were rather loud.

They decided that,
for whatever reasons,

that it would be
interesting to tape
those arguments.

I understand also

that they would
sneak microphones
into your window.

Okay, so, this
is what happened.

Between 1987
and 1989,

they made
a series of tapes,
cassette tapes.

About 10 hours'
worth.

They sent them
to friends,

who then
copied them...

Where did they live?

They lived
right next door
in apartment four.

They lived in four,

you lived in three,
right next door.

Okay, they lived in four?

I don't recall them.

Cothran:
You would say to Ray,
"Shut up, little man.

Shut up, little man."

And they found
that funny

the way, you know,
20-somethings find
things ironic and funny.

They copied the tapes
many, many, many times over

and they sent the tapes
all over the world.

All over the world
they sent the tapes.
(Laughing)

And you became
something of
a celebrity.

You and Ray and Tony
became something
of celebrities.

Sort of pop culture
celebrities,
if you follow me.

Then, wait, the
story gets better.

That's true.
That's true.

I did tell Ray,
"Shut up, little man."

I'd forgotten that.
Yeah.

Everyone was taken
especially with
your sense of humour.

They thought you had a,
sort of, a certain élan.

Frankly, a bitchy
sort of élan.

You know? It's like,
"Shut up, little man.

Shut up, little man."

They found it humorous.
They found it humorous.

Gregg, the playwright
who's now working
with Henry,

found it humorous too,
wrote a play about it.

He wrote a play
about...

Rosenthal:
Even more than
humour... insightful.

Cothran:
Insightful,

find it insightful
and humorous,
about human nature

and the way
relationships work.

You know what the title
of the play was?

"Shut Up,
Little Man".

(Laughing)
Oh, wow.

So then, the play...
throughout this
period of time

the tapes started
multiplying...

Shut up, little man.

(Laughter)

Frankly, you've
become a pop culture
celebrity, Peter.

And I'm not
lying to you.

There are thousands
and thousands of teenagers

and adults across
the country

who have listened
to these tapes, which
are now actually a CD.

And now there's been
plays, t-shirts;

a comic book
was done.

A comic book was
done, so you know,

like, the underground
comic books...

Well, when do I sue?
(Awkward laughs)

(Funk rock ¶¶)

Peter: (Recorded sample)
Do it.

Do it.

Do it.

If you've got
the nerve, do it.

( ¶¶ )

Do it.

Then do it.

( ¶¶ )

Ray: (Recorded sample)
You son of a bitch,

(Echoing)
I was wounded
three times.

Cothran:
How do you feel that...
you are now the subject

of fascination
by playwrights

and movie producers
and journalists and...

and people who are
into comic books?

How does that
make you feel?

I still want
that kid down...

down south to play me.

Rosenthal:
Right.

Cothran:
Which kid?

Rosenthal:
I remember.
What's his name?

Rosenthal:
Brad Pitt.
Yeah. Brad Pitt.

Rosenthal:
That's who he wants
to play him.

Shut up, little man!

Don't call me
a little man.

Shut up, little man!

( ¶¶ )

(Glass shattering)

You're a sick,
little old man.

I'm healthy.

(Cough)

You're a sick
little man.

And you'll die from
the same thing your
brother died from.

Good!

Ray?
Hmm?

The neighbours
are recording us.

Tell them Peter is a
fucking piece of shit

and the world would
have been better off

had he died when
he was young.

I despise him.

(Knocking on door)
Uh, little man?

Uh, where are the cheques
I wrote you for the rent?

I want them.

Man:
(Indistinct)

Levy:
Uh, they're no good.

You said you would be
quiet, then do it!

How do doing,
my man?

So, you know,
I've got a little
man pad down here,

so to speak.
Yeah.

Uh, "Little Man" pad
is more like it.

(Laughing)
You're not
even a...

you're just
a little man... lady,

pardon me, lady.

Interviewer :
So, whenever
you're ready.

Just hit the space bar.

Cothran: (On laptop)
The lads who taped you,

I found out from them...
Oh, my goodness.
What?

Cothran:
...where you live.
Oh, wow!

Wow.

Peter:
...previous surgery
they did...

That's him.

Cothran:
Throughout this
period of time

the tapes started mult...
Peter: (On laptop)
Shut up, little man.

(Laughter)
Ohh, yes!

(Continued laughter)

Cothran:
There's been
plays, t-shirts;

a comic book was done.

(Laugh)
Comic book...

He lit up over that.
Peter:
So, when do I sue?

Cothran:
That depends on
whether you want
to sue or not.

I'm old enough that
I don't care no more.

You know what? Peter...
It's too sad for me.

Peter doesn't work alone,
he's got to be screeching

and walking around the house
(Laughing)

at the little man.

It's just...

I understand your
sister's point of view,

that you pity... that
she pitied these guys.

Looking at him,
I really do pity
him now, you know?

He's a guy who's
just a broken man.

He... he just
has no clue.

He's just out of it.

But you know what,
just hearing him say,

"Shut up, little man,"
like that,

in the same voice...

that brings it all
home, you know?
Yeah, for sure.

It's like Evel Knievel
doing one last stunt

before he retires,
you know?

Or him coming
out of retirement
to do it again.

And still nailing
the jump, you know?
Mm-hmm.

Yep, that's
what it was like.

Maybe... what else
is there to say
about them now?

Maybe it's time
we grew up now.

Uhh, you both
seemed to have...

learned an awful
lot about me

that I don't even know,

so... uh...

Clowes:
I'm sure he thought,

you know, he just
pissed his life away

in an alcoholic stupor,

and then to have somebody
walk into your life

randomly one day
and say, you know,

"By the way, you have
millions of fans
around the world

"and everybody appreciates
your clever word play.

"And there's something about
you that we all respond to

and relate to
on a human level."

I mean, that's just...
it's like everybody's
dream in a way,

or everybody's nightmare,
I don't know.

You ain't nothing
but a fucking
piece of shit.

You're a dirty
fighter.

You don't fight right
and I can kill you.

And you know it.

You want to try?
You try it.

You ain't
nothing but a...

Nobody wants
to listen to you!

Don't you understand...
I'll kill you,
you cocksucker...

You're a little man.
Shut up.

Don't fuck with me,
you fucking
piece of shit...

Oh, shut up, little man,
you don't have...

you don't have
the willpower
to kill me.

You ain't nothing
but a fucking
piece of shit...

You're a sick,
little old man.

I am healthy.

You're a sick
little man

that is dying from
the same thing that
your brother died of!

Bullshit!
I'm not...

I'm a healthy man.

You're a fucking
piece of shit!
(Laughing)

You ain't nothing
but a piece of shit.

Why don't you shut up,
little man?

(Mouse click)
Woman: (On video)
And what's your problem?

You want to play
this game? I've got
a video camera.
Good.

What is your problem?
I would like for you
to call the police

and have them search
your apartment.

What the hell's wrong
with my apartment?

There's something wrong
with your apartment.

Now everybody's
got a cellphone

that can record their
neighbours fighting.

(Mixed yelling, screaming)

(Mouse click)
(Applause)

(Mouse click)
(Mixed yelling, screaming)

(Swords clanging)

(Mouse clicks)

(Booing)

How would this have been
different if Raymond and
Peter had been videoed?

(Thuds)

Peter: (On recording)
Now you go to bed!

You get the
fuck to bed.

Ray:
Peter, get away.

(Audience applause,
cheering)

Brunetti:
Maybe this is really
horrible that I'm
laughing at this.

Who knows, like,
maybe the whole thing
is kind of immoral.

(Continued
applause, cheers)

Rosenthal:
The issue of morality

is really in the
recording itself.

Is it acceptable
to record people

without their knowledge,
and then exploit it?

Eddie:
I mean, the thing is,
you know,

living next door to these
absolute lunatics,

the whole spectrum
shifted so much.

Standing outside with the
microphone on our veranda

at 3:00 in the morning
on a Tuesday night,

that didn't seem
weird anymore.

Peter: (On recording)
Shut up, little man.

Shut up, little man!

Gibbs:
If they're just
in their own house

and they're putting
on their tape recorder

and they're... you know,
listening to them,

you know, they have
every right to do that.

But if they're actually
sticking a microphone

in somebody's apartment,

it's a different, I think
it's a different issue.

Peter: (On recording)
Shut up, little man!

Mitch:
You know, it crossed
my mind, of course.

"Am I invading these
people's privacy?"

But that conversation
did not only take place

within the confines
of their dwelling.

It went...
it exceeded the walls.

It went way
beyond the confines

of where that conversation
was taking place,

so therefore,
it became public domain.

Peter: (On recording)
And I want you to quit
stealing my vodka.

Ray:
Throw it at me,
you fat motherfucker.

Peter:
I'm not a fat
motherfucker, asshole.

Ray:
You ain't nothing else.

Peter:
Then shut up!

Brunetti:
I think at the point

when they didn't have
to make those recordings

for purposes of
showing the police,

but they realized
they were... they're
just compelling,

you know, and then
they kind of decided,

"Let's just keep doing it."
I think at that point,

you're getting into the
territory of what art is.

Interviewer:
Is the act of recording
Pete and Ray art?

Is it art?
No, I don't think so, no.

I think doing something with
what they recorded is art.

Peter: (On recording)
I'm tired of you
telling me how many
friends you have.

You don't have
any friends.

Tony has friends,
I have friends,

John Silver has friends;
you don't have friends.

Eddie:
I felt like an urban
field recording
artist, you know,

someone who is capturing
this great material.

Peter: (On recording)
Will you stop
being such a fool?

Ray:
I'm not.

Peter:
You're on welfare.

Eddie:
And then adding
to the folklore

by paying attention
to what happened
to Peter and Raymond

and these little
details, like the
skull in the window...

(Camera shutter clicking)

...or witnessing Raymond

sitting next to a six-foot
stuffed bunny.

Capturing these little
details of their lives

and assembling it as a
sort of urban folk tale.

(Jazz ¶¶)

( ¶¶ )

(Chuckle)

(Indistinct conversation)

Eddie:
I think that really
great art is a mirror.

If you really bring
your whole humanity
to anything

and you stare into really
good, provocative art,

and I would say
"Shut Up, Little Man"
falls into that place,

you can see so much.

Mitch: (Quietly)
This is our second attempt,

my second attempt,
to go try and see Tony.

They would only allow
two of us up here,

so it's me and
the cameraman.

Um, Ed decided
to wait downstairs.

It's SRO rules,
Single Resident
Occupancy law.

Apparently only
two people can go up
to visit someone.

So we're here
to try to see Tony.

Tony:
Yeah?
Tony?

Hey, Tony,
it's Mitch.

How are you?

I ain't no...

Tony, I have...
some money for you

to talk to you
for a minute.

(Indistinct)

Would it be...
I brought you
a six pack too.

Can you just...
talk to me from the
door for one minute?

I... just have
one question
for you, Tony.
Huh?

I just have one
question for you.

I'd like...
I don't hear good.
What?

Let me ask you
one question, Tony.

I want to know
the nature of
the relationship

between Peter
and Ray.

What was their
relationship all about?

Okay.

To me, "Shut Up, Little Man"
is... is not exploitative.

Had I made a decision
at the very,

very beginning of this
whole thing, like,

I'm going to record
these people,

take advantage of
their sad madness,

their hilarious madness,

and make money,
make myself famous,

blah, blah, blah,
you know,

I would... I would feel

like I would be living
in purgatory right now.

Well, I could
wait for you.

Interviewer:
So, wh... you know,
why do you still do it?

What's the fascination?

I... at times I got
the point, like,

"What am I doing here?

"What is this?
What are we doing?

Does this...
do people really need
to hear all this?"

The impetus behind it

was because I had
literally boxes of mail.

People are clambering
for the stuff.

They pestered me
for literally seven
or eight years.

And I did feel
a responsibility,

as the person who brought
this into the world,

to get it done
and get it out there.

"Whatever happened to Tony?"
(Laughing)

Every two or three
months I get something
from somebody going,

"We in Tulsa love Tony.

"What happened to him?

"Do you know how we
can find Tony?

We love his lines."

You know...

Well, I used
to live next door
to Peter and Ray.

I used to live
in apartment 4
at 237 Steiner.

And you lived with
them occasionally
in apartment 3.

And there are a lot
of people interested

in the Peter
and Raymond story.

And you're
a part of that.

"Hey, you filthy
fucking cocksucker,

"I have spent two months
searching for more
Raymond and Peter CDs

"and then I found
your website, thank God.

"At least I reached
the Holy Land

"where the words of
the Prophet Raymond
can be heard:

"'I am the human race,
you fucking queer!'

"I've enclosed
a money order for $42

"and I would like to order
two 'Shut Up, Little Man'
CDs and two cassettes.

"Thanks for being there

and recording these
timeless words of wisdom."

Interviewer:
There's also money
involved as well.

Like, you sell
death certificates,

like, Pete and Ray's
death certificates.

So is that art?

Is selling someone's
death certificate
part of the art?

For me personally,
I don't like simple art.

I'm bored by it.
It bores the shit out of me.

I don't want to look at it,
I don't want to see it,

I don't want to read it,
I don't want to hear it.

I want stuff that's
going to provoke me,

push me around,
make me think about
my own condition.

And there's always
that extra level,

like, "What does it
say about humanity,

about our common
human experience?"

That's the stuff
that thrills me.

Well, it's just
for your time.

It's not selling out
your life, per se.

Um, we just
wanted to get...

ask you a couple
questions about
Peter and Ray.

Okay.

Okay.

Oops... okay.

Thank you.
It's okay.

I'm not
going to do...

I'm not going to
do anything, Tony.

I'm not going to
do anything at all.

This is Bryan.
His name is
Bryan Mason.

And my name
is Mitch Deprey.

So, I'm going to just
set the beer here.

I'm going to put
the money here.

Mason:
Would you prefer
if I leave the door
open or closed?

Closed.
I don't want...
Okay.

Okay, um... may I
just sit right here?

Yes, you have to,
Okay.

because that's the
only place that
either one of us...
Okay,

okay, okay, well,
um, thank you...

Mitch: (On computer)
This is a legitimate
project

and we're here in
San Francisco doing
a documentary

and we're...
Tony: (On computer)
Well, I know,

You told me that 100 times,
but I don't want...

Mitch:
Okay, um...

Do you remember much
about Peter and Ray?

Yeah.
How did you meet Ray?

Probably in the bar.
In the bar?

Because it was always
interesting to me to
hear them fighting.

Peter would say,
"Shut up, little man,"

and Ray would say,
"Hey, look, you
queer cocksucker...

I despise queers."
Yeah, that...

So... but we often
wondered, why did
they continue...
Yeah...

Ray would call him
a queer and say...

call him a queer
son of a bitch.

"You was a queer
when you were born

"and you'll be a fucking
queer when you die.

And everybody hates you."

and... you know.

You remember that?
(Laughing)

Yes.

Oh, that's funny.

I had asked you when
I was standing at the door

about the nature of
their relationship.

What was the nature
of their relationship?

Did they have sex?
No.

Did they have
a relationship?
No, no, no...

It was just a...

Ray was straight
as... an arrow.

Er, Ray... er,

Peter was fruitier
than a goddamn
pineapple, you know,

but... they were
friends, you know.

That's the way...
that's the way it stayed

until they was drunk
and when they got drunk
they'd be enemies.

Obviously when
they were quiet,

when they weren't drunk,
they seemed to... they got...

do you think they
got along okay?

Oh, heck, yes,
they got along great.

If one of them was sick
or in the hospital,

they'd go see each other.

Took care
of one another...

go to the store for...

do laundry for each other,

you know, just like...

you know, they share.
Right.

But when they
got drunk, boy...

Was it a two-bedroom
apartment?

No. One bedroom.

It was one bedroom.
Yeah.

So, did they have...
did they share
the bedroom?

Yeah.
Okay.

They had single beds,
just like this.
Okay.

They had, like,
a dining room table

in the bedroom between
the beds, you know.

Half of the table
was Peter's,
half was Ray's.

Mitch: (Laughing)
Oh, really?

So, they had a line kind
of right down the middle?

Tony:
But... then,
like, after...

when Ray died,

Peter wanted to start that
shit with me, I guess.

Or he thought
he would, you know?

You mean the
fighting?
Yeah.

But I don't like it...

He'd want me
to yell, I guess,

and argue with him,
but I wouldn't do that.

So, I just get
enough of it and...

I'd get up and knock
the shit out of him.

Yeah.

Eddie:
Wa... you know,
watching this footage
for the first time,

for me, it's like
a collision of so many
different emotions.

Like, I'm sitting
here utterly riveted.

Um... I almost broke down
and cried at one point

because it's like...

you know, when you
really understand
the kind of devastation

of these guys' lives
and the fact that,
you know...

the dynamic between
Peter and Ray was like...
(Laugh)

you know... really
screwed up this guy's
life too, in a way.

I mean, he's addressing
that, you know,

just how insanely
maddening it was for him.

It's... it's just raw.

It's a bunch of
different stuff going
on at once, you know.

So, thank you.

Thank you for
letting me...
I didn't know Peter was dead

until you said
something the other day,

but it made me happy.

Really?
Yeah.

I'm...
Okay.

Um, I believe...
he passed in '95,
I think.

I wish I knew where
he was buried.

I'd go piss on
his fucking grave.

(Acoustic guitar ¶¶)

( ¶¶ )

( ¶¶ )

All right, man.

Mission
accomplished, man.

Love you, brother.
Yeah, you too, man.

That was
so much fun.

( ¶¶ )

( ¶¶ )

No, you got to be
on the run.

( ¶¶ )

Brunetti:
Eddie Lee Sausage
and Mitchell,

I'm sure they
question, like,

whether or not they were
doing the right thing

and, "Are we bad people
for doing this?"

But you know, like,
on the other hand,

to deprive us...
(Chuckle)

the rest of us,
from hearing this material,

I think that would
be a greater evil,

like killing history
or something.

Clowes:
That's the amazing thing.

It's a world nobody
else would ever be
party to, you know.

God knows how many
"Shut Up, Little Man"s
are going on

right around us right now.

And how would you ever
have access to that?

It's a completely
sealed off world.

Levy:
The fact that their story
has spread worldwide

in this underground current

and has remained so vital,

it says a lot about us
and our fascination with
people we don't know,

and how we really
are voyeurs,

and how when
we listen to prank calls

and real life
kind of things,

we feel like we are
watching something

or listening to something
we really shouldn't.

Christian Bale: (On recording)
Think for one fucking second!

Mitch:
Did they have sex?
Tony:
No, no.

(Mixed voices)

Rosenthal:
That's entertainment.
What can I say?

(Mixed voices)

Eddie:
I don't like simple art.
I'm bored by it.

(Mixed shouting)
(Tape rewinding)

Rosenthal: (On video)
Did you love Ray?

I mean... did you have
a fondness for Ray?

Did you consider him
someone important
in your life

that you loved?

Or was he just sort
of a casual friend?

How did... ?

Oh, no, he was very
important in my life.

(Whistling)

¶ I know you think
I'm insane ¶

¶ I know it's not
appealing ¶

¶ But till I'm feeling
no pain ¶

¶ Guess what
I'll be feeling ¶

¶ I got to get
too drunk to dream ¶

¶ Because dreaming
only makes me blue ¶

¶ I got to get
too drunk to dream ¶

¶ Because I only
dream of you ¶

¶ I got to get
too fried to cry ¶

¶ Or I'll be crying
all night long ¶

¶ I got to get
too high to sigh ¶

¶ Oh, my God,
where did I go wrong ¶

¶ So, why do I
get plastered? ¶

¶ And why am I
so lonely? ¶

¶ It's you,
you heartless bastard ¶

¶ You're my one and only ¶

( ¶¶ )

¶ I got to get
too drunk to dream ¶

¶ Because dreaming
only makes me blue ¶

¶ I got to get
too drunk to dream ¶

¶ Because I only
dream of you ¶

( ¶¶ )

¶ Here they come ¶

¶ Starting up ¶

¶ I hear the threats
and taunts ¶

¶ Ruminating from
the people next door ¶

¶ Woe is me ¶

¶ Go turn on the TV ¶

¶ Now Pete's watching
"Wheel Of Fortune" ¶

¶ But Ray says
it's queer shit ¶

¶ And he always giggles false,
he's a mean motherfucker ¶

¶ Push comes to shove,
Ray on the floor ¶

¶ And you can bet that by noon
it'll happen once more ¶

¶ And it's a Raymond
and Peter confusion ¶

¶ If you think you
can sleep, it's illusion ¶

¶ Because you know
they'll be fighting ¶

¶ And yelling
till 4:00 a.m. ¶

¶ And here comes Tony
who says, "Break it up" ¶

¶ Raymond tells Peter,
"I'm going to fuck you up" ¶

¶ Peter just
fires back with ¶

¶ "Shut up, little man" ¶

¶ It's a Raymond
and Peter confusion ¶

¶ Peter says,
"Get me some vodka" ¶

¶ Raymond says,
"I'm going to have ¶

¶ A fucking bowl
of soup right now" ¶

¶ And here comes a call
from The Nova Express times ¶

¶ Accusations
of 14 homicide crimes ¶

¶ Peter tells Raymond, "Ray,
you're just fucking up" ¶

¶ Peter yells ¶

¶ We go to bed ¶

¶ But Ray yells back ¶

¶ "Peter Haskett's
a queer piece of shit" ¶

¶ Says, "I am
the human race" ¶

¶ Corned beef hash
on his face ¶

¶ He says, "I was a killer."
When he says it he barks it ¶

¶ But Peter fires back,
"Go live south of Market" ¶

¶ It's a Raymond
and Peter confusion ¶

¶ Numerous abrasions
and contusions ¶

¶ Ardell's calling ¶

¶ Looking for Tony,
the queer ¶

¶ He tells Ray, "You don't
have any friends" ¶

¶ Ray tells Pete
he farts from both ends ¶

¶ Tony rambles on ¶

¶ On how we stripped
that fucker down ¶

¶ And it's a Raymond
and Peter confusion ¶

¶ Their fighting
is big noise pollution ¶

¶ Raymond puts on
his shoes to dial 911 ¶

¶ "You want to stick me with
that fork?" Peter says ¶

¶ Raymond's lounging
around in self-made mess ¶

¶ Says, "If you want
to talk to me ¶

¶ Then shut
your fucking mouth" ¶

( ¶¶ )