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So, there is a famous experiment that was published last year by Jota Kahasi's lab,
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and it came out in Science.
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And that relates to caloric restriction.
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And we kind of started with this idea, we started discussion that the rat experiments
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were done with caloric restriction, and researchers gave reduced calorie consumption by 20% or
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30% and gave that food, the rats and then subsequently mice, and they all lived longer.
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What is interesting is in all those experiments, the researchers came and gave this bolus of
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food at one time, whereas the adlivetum fed mice or rats, they had access to food all
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the time.
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So, they were eating all the time, and then these rats were given 20% less.
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And what happens is these mice or rats, they're not going to take that less food, which is
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rest on now, and just eat a little bit of lunch and then snack after three hours or snack
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after three hours.
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They gobble up all that food.
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Within two to three hours, maximum four hours, food is gone.
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So, they're sort of on the OMAD diet, the one meal a day.
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Yeah.
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They're almost like one meal a day, three to four hours, food is gone.
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Or you can say they're on four hours eating or feeding and 20 hours fasting.
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So, then the question became, well, the benefit of calorie restriction, as we know, is it
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due to reduced calorie or time restricted feeding or timing?
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There is a timing component to it.
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They're eating all of that within three to four hours, and then there is a long fasting.
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And this is a difficult question to answer because now you have to ask these poor grad
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students or technicians to come and split that food into eight or 10 or 15 different
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small portions and then give them to mice in every two hours.
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So, Joe Takahashi, who actually published the first paper in 2017 showing that most calorie
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restrictions...
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I mean, he used the protocol that was used by calorie restriction field.
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It actually creates a condition of time restriction.
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So he showed that and then he went back and worked with engineers to come up with a smart
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case where he could actually tell, he could program how much food is given to mice at
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what time of the day or night, completely programmed.
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So then he took this...
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For example, suppose the adlivetum fed mice eats five grams of chow in a day.
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And if you want to reduce calories by 20%, then the CR mouse should get four grams of
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food.
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And he divided this into nine or 10 meals and then gave them in every 90 minutes.
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So in this case, they're eating small meals throughout the night.
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So there is no fasting.
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So you can say that, well, this mouse actually is not getting into fasting because in every
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few hours is getting some food.
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And then he measured how long the mouse is going to live.
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And he used...
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This is a very standard protocol.
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People count how many mice are dying on which day and then examine them to see whether they
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died because there was an accident or there was a natural cause.
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And then they calculate at the end, what is the half life?
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So 50% survival, because on an average, that's a good indicator because if there is an outlier
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that will live for a long time, then that can skew.
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So what was interesting was the adlivetum fed mice, of course, they live certain number
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of days.
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And then this caloric restricted mice that never got into super fasting, but kind of
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eating, snacking throughout the night, that also live 10% extra, 10% longer.
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So that means caloric restriction extended lifespan by 10%.
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I've wondered about this because recently there were a bunch of news headlines about
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intermittent fasting.
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And frankly, I was frustrated if you looked at one major news outlet, they would say,
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time restricted feeding affords no additional benefit beyond caloric restriction for weight
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loss.
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Then another popular press venue, let's call it that, same study described as time restricted
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feeding doesn't work.
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And then another one, maybe someplace even more extreme, time restricted feeding only
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beneficial because of caloric restriction or something like that.
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So what you've essentially got are three different interpretations of the same data, all of which
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are, well, two of which are true, one of which is false in my opinion.
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But what I think people take away from that is, oh, time restricted feeding isn't valuable,
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which is not the case.
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I think for many people it's a convenient way to eat because at least for people like
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me, it's simpler to designate between portions of my day when I'm eating and portions of
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my day when I'm not eating as opposed to eat portion control.
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For other people, portion control can work.
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But all of that is related to either maintenance or loss of weight.
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None of it deals with the potential health benefits independent of weight loss.
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And so I think that if we can segment those out, obviously in humans it's hard to know
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if a given treatment or experiment is extending life because you don't really know how long
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people would live anyway.
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Whereas with mice you have some sense of when the mortality was likely to occur.
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So what can we say about time restricted feeding and longevity in terms of biomarkers or in
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terms of any other indication that people who start and stop their feeding window at
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a consistent time, somewhere between eight and 12 hours per 24 hour cycle, are tilting
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the scales towards living longer as opposed to living shorter?
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This example of this news article that you mentioned is really interesting because that
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relates to Joe Takao's study because I described that if you split calories and eat throughout
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the day, throughout day and night, then the mice live 10% extra.
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But if you now give mouse the same calorie restricted diet and feed them during daytime,
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whether within 12 hours or two hours, then the mice live 10% extra.
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Beyond that.
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Yes.
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So 20% longer.
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20%.
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I don't know if I understand so that I make sure I understand.
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If you take a certain number of calories and you distribute them throughout the 24 hour
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cycle, it's caloric restriction, the mice will live 10% longer.
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If you however restrict that to the active cycle, so for humans the daytime, then they
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live 20% longer.
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So it's not just total caloric intake.
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Meaning it's not just important to be sub maintenance and calories for sake of longevity.
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It also is important as to when in the 24 hour cycle you eat those calories.
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Do I have that right?
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So now that's still the story is not over because this mice are fed during daytime and
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they're not supposed to eat.
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That's right.
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So for us, it would be the equivalent of being on the night shift and only eating at night,
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but a subcaloric sub maintenance calorie diet, I guess is the right way to say it.
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But when he fed mice during nighttime when they're supposed to eat and they're seeing
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this, getting the same number of calories within 12 hours or two hours, then the mice
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live 35% longer than they control.
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35% longer.
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So scale to human lifespan, which we don't know, but a 35% longer would mean that, and
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again, no one knows, but humans now, what is the average mortality in the United States?
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Somewhere around 80?
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Yeah, so it's around 80, it used to be 80 now, reduced a little bit because of COVID,
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but let's take 80.
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Okay.
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So people are then now living somewhere between 25 and 35 years longer.
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I'm putting some arrow bars on there.
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Yeah.
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Amazing.
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So that was really profound, but now you pointed out biomarker and other stuff.
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So now if you look at any given time within that experiment, and actually Joe went back
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and had a separate cohort of mice, very similar, and so that he could take tissue samples,
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and of course, in this case, you have to sacrifice the mouse.
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And he did a lot of molecular analysis with known markers.
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For example, hemoglobin A1C equivalent or glucose control, cholesterol, all this stuff.
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He could not find anything that predicted the benefit of caloric restriction.
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So that means in this experiment, whatever we know so far, the predictor of longevity,
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none of them could predict whether this CR only mouse, which ate throughout day and night,
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that mouse is going to live less than the night fed mouse that was going to live 25%
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extra.
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Does that mean that there are biomarkers related to longevity that we just haven't discovered
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yet?
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Yeah.
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So that's exactly.
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Whatever we know so far about biomarkers, those he could not use to predict.
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Maybe there was a lot of noise.
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Maybe he had to use more number of mice to get that because biomarkers are not going to
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predict in every instance that there is some error.
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What is also very interesting is if you look at the body weight and body composition of
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all these mice, there is no difference in body weight and body composition.
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Across all these different groups.
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All these groups.
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So it doesn't matter when they ate, provided they were sub-maintenance calorie intake.
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So fewer calories than is required to maintain their weight.
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It didn't matter what pattern of eating, they were the same weight.
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So that in many ways seems to mimic the human studies where they say, look, it doesn't really
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matter whether or not you use caloric restriction or you start your feeding window in the morning
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or start your feeding window in the evening or you portion control for sake of weight
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loss.
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Because you're taking a snap sort of that.
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And then another thing with the human study that we are referring to here, in that human
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study, people are actually already eating within 10 hours window.
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Habitually, when they selected these people to have them enroll in the study.
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So they were already eating for 10 hours and fasting for 14 hours.
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All participants had to reduce their calorie intake and they reduced by almost 25%.
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The CR group continued with 10 hours eating window and the CR plus time restricted group
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had to eat the same number of calories within eight hours.
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So it's just a two hour difference.
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It's just a two hours difference.
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Okay.
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So that people, I just want to make sure people can understand.
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So in this human study, which is the one that I felt that the popular press venues, all
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except one venue, got either semi wrong or badly wrong in terms of their conclusion.
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That was my interpretation anyway, was that either people came into the study eating basically
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in a 10 hour feeding window, which goes back to my first question, which is that most people
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are not eating in the middle of the night.
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Yeah.
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Or if they're on shift work and they are, then they're sleeping during the day anyway.
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So they're eating in a 10 to 12 hour feeding window anyway.
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So you're saying they either did caloric restriction portion control within a 10 hour window or
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another group within the study, eight sub maintenance calories to caloric restriction
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CR, as we're calling it, the acronym CR, but restricted to that to an eight hour feeding
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window and they didn't see any difference in terms of weight loss.
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Yeah.
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But it's not all that surprising, right?
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I mean, if it's just a two hour difference.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So we have done that experiment in mice and we don't see difference in not only weight
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loss, many other markers.
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And I was telling you about this Jota Kahasi's paper where I told you that he allowed these
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mice to eat within two hours or 12 hours, subcaloric diet.
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Two or 12.
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Two or 12.
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Yeah, that's dramatic.
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But still, he did not see change in longevity even within those two.
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So that means when you do caloric restriction and then at least for months and you are within
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12 hours window, that is giving the mice the best benefit, the optimum benefit.
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And two, three or five or 12 per mouse doesn't matter, at least for longevity.
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Can we conclude for humans that whether or not a feeding window is four hours, six hours,
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eight hours or 12 doesn't matter provided the calories are similar or same?
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Well, I won't go to that extent because we don't know many of these, particularly we
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don't know how this sort of eating window will affect both sexes because we always think
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many of these mouse experiments, even that I told you about, those are done only in male
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mice.
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But that should be changing, right?
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Because the NIH, I know this because I'm on study section, which is just a bunch of people
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who review grants, is that every grant now has to include sex as a biological variable.
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It's hard to get away with, or rather I should say it the way it should be stated, which
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is people are required and should want to look at these phenomenon in male and female
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mice, especially if there are differences.
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So in this case, there are many, I mean, there was also another paper in Time Restricted
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Feeding that also came out, a big paper showing that the thermogenesis was accounting for
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loss in fat mass in time-restricted fat mice.
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That was also done only in male mice.
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So this is, we are paying attention to it.
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So we are now doing all of our studies in male and female, and we do see big differences
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between male and female.
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Coming back to humans, what typically happens is when you're trying to do four hours or
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six hours of time-restricted eating, people will inadvertently reduce their calorie intake.
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Just because of gut volume.
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I tried one meal per day, and I felt like I was eating so much at that one sitting that
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it led to a lot of gastric distress, and I got tired after the meal.
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And part of the reason I like to do time-restricted feeding is I have more energy.
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And certainly in the fasted state, I feel more energized, especially if I'm ingesting
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a little caffeine or something like that.
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So people will reduce energy intake, and then some people who are more active, they can
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actually, unconsciously, they may be spending more energy in their physical activity and
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basal metabolic rate, all of this combined than how much they're eating.
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And that can have a very adverse effect in long-term because we know that this energy
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deficit, and in fact, there is a scientific term for that.
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It's called RAD-S, relative energy deficit in sports.
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Relative energy deficit in sports.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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40% of athletes, not the NFL guys, but there are a lot of people who do track and field,
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and nearly 40% of athletes actually experience this RAD-S without knowing.
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Can male and female athletes both experience RAD-S?
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So it's RAD-S, relative energy deficit in sports.
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Interesting.
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This is the first I've heard this acronym.
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We have a new acronym, folks.
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This is good to add to a list of other acronyms.
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So males and females can experience it.
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So in females, I've heard that RADs can lead to eminorrhea, so loss of the menstrual cycle.
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Yeah.
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So that's so common, so prevalent that in fact, many women, many female athletes, they
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take it for granted that, yes, if they are more active, then they will lose their menstrual
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cycle, which may be common, but it's not normal or optimum for health.
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Even if they don't want to get pregnant.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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We had an expert on female hormones come on and say the very same thing, that regular
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cycling is a...
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It's very important.
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... of ovulatory menstrual cycle is important to try and maintain.
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Yeah.
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So that's one.
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But then what is really concerning is it does affect bone health.
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And in this state, people actually over a long period of time, they lose bone mass and
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their bone also becomes more prone to injury, micro fracture and fractures.
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So again, it's a risk.
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I mean, some people are trying to eat within very short time and they're physically active,
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that happens.
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And it also has impact on...means the reason why these women are losing menstrual cycle
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is the HPG axis is disrupted, hypothalamus, pituitary, gonadal axis.
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And it starts in...may start even upstream at hypothalamus or pituitary.
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So that means that HPA axis, hypothalamus, pituitary and adrenal axis may also get disrupted.
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One of the symptoms of reds is also depression, anxiety, bipolar-like symptoms.
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And we know that many, many athletes experience that.
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We think that, well, this may be just peer pressure that always trying to compete.
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And we know that unfortunately there are a few athletes who just can't cope it and there
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are many attempted suicide or suicide.
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So this is a serious issue.
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And there's also another new topic in the lab to come up with a mouse model of reds
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and then study it.
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But this is one risk why we should not reduce our eating interval to one meal or very short
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time, because it can have adverse side effect that we don't know now.
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Maybe in future we'll figure out when we systematically study them.
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There are studies that are published showing four hours and six hours time restricted eating
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has benefits on weight loss, but those are on healthy individuals and they were in the
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studies.
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So the study team were already monitoring, they made sure that there was no sudden weight
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loss or weight loss below some safety level.
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So those are very different from regular people who are maybe even normal weight, even with
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within the healthy range.
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If they do, then they can potentially.
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So that's why what we think is eight to 10 hours may be the ideal spot to begin with.
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And once you are physically active and you are also spending a lot of energy in physical
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activity or sports, you can even go up to 12 hours because in mice we have done that
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experiment up to 12 hours, they do get a lot of benefits, not all but...
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So this is 12 hours of...
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12 hours of eating, 12 hours of fasting.
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In humans, again, nobody has done systematically 12 hours, but there was one study in Europe
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from Tin Hai Collette Lab and Tin Hai and I, we collaborate.
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So they used our Mycica Indian Clock app.
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This is a research app we developed just to...
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This is mostly used in time restricted eating studies.
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And he had nearly...I think he started with 200 Swiss participants, but then at the end
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he selected and took very small number of groups.
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People who are very meticulous about recording all their food and divided them into usual
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feeling whatever they wanted to eat, whenever they wanted to eat.
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And they were given the advice of Swiss nutrition advice that's given to improve health and
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reduce blood glucose, almost like diabetes prevention program in the US.
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And then the other group was given advice to eat within 12 hours.
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This is very early on in time restricted eating and we thought that the mice were getting
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some benefit, let's try whether 12 hours has any benefit.
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The bottom line is at the end of three months and six months, what he reported is both groups
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lost same amount of body weight.
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And then there's not too much significant difference between groups, but both groups
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actually improved their health.
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So the bottom line is the Swiss nutritional advice that he was giving, which is the standard
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of care there, it achieved the same amount of weight loss as just giving people this
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advice that eat within 12 hours.
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So one way to look at it, look at the result is like this.
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And then he went to more extent and actually looked at every single meal these people consume.
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So there are close to, I think close to 60 or 70,000 meal records and pictures he went
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through and then classified them to say whether these are good quality food.
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So they call it the NOVA classification, one, two, three, four.
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One is the food that you can almost eat raw fruits, vegetables, yogurt, dairy products
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that you can almost without any preparation.
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And then second, NOVA two is kind of home-cooked food that most people will prepare in a few
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minutes and then three.
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And then fourth one is the food that you can never prepare at home.
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So for example, biscuit or cookies that we usually purchase and a few other things.
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And usually the NOVA four are unhealthy ultra-processed foods, so which we should not be eating.
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So the advice is to reduce NOVA four.
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And what he found was people who got all this advice to improve their nutrition quality,
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they actually improve their nutrition quality.
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They reduce their NOVA four food.
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And people who are in time-restricted eating, they ate within 12 hours, they did not change
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their nutrition quality.
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But what is interesting is they both got the same modest weight loss.
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So that begs the question that maybe Chinhai will do this experiment again to combine nutrition
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advice with time restriction and maybe reduce the time to 10 hours and that might help.
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So 12 hours is something that I say anyone from five-year-old to 100-year-old can do.
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And if you are trying to maintain weight, that might be a good way and combine that
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with exercise, it'll be great.
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And people can more easily avoid reds in that way.
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Women and for non-athletes or recreational exercises, it sounds like women, if they distribute
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their calories across 12 hours are less likely to lose their menstrual cycle.
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Yeah.
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So again, this is something that we have to look carefully.
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Because we do have the Mycetidine Clock app that many people download and self-monitor
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and they share the data for researchers.
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We will provide a link to that, by the way.
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It's a great tool.
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Yeah.
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But once in a while, we do get this input from some women saying, oh, I started doing
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your time-
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ratio eating and I am seeing all these problems.
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And then I asked them, okay, so what else are you doing?
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They typically improve their nutrition quality.
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So they're eating only salad and few and they're trying to increase their fiber intake.
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And it's really hard to eat so much of uncooked food because cooking helps to absorb more
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nutrients.
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And then at the same time, they're running five miles every day.
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And of course, all of this combinedly can lead to red-like symptoms.
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So that's why 12, I think, is a good point if you're combining physical exercise and better
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nutrition quality.
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Because in mice also, we have seen that if mice are eating healthy food and they're eating
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within 10 to 12 hours, then they also live longer than mice that are eating healthy food,
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but distributing that calorie over a long period of time.
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And this is Rafa Di Cabo's finding from NIH.
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He has systematically done this study with two different types of diet and in mice.
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And he finds the same thing, that even mice that are eating within 12 hours, they do live
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longer than mice that eat randomly even healthy food.
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I recall a recent study, I think it was either published in Cell Reports or Cell Reports Medicine.
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Forgive me for not remembering which, but both of course, Cell Press journals, excellent
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journals, which explored time-restricted feeding in the context of low carbohydrate
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or non-low carbohydrate diet.
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So it was low carbohydrate versus low carbohydrate and time-restricted.
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So these are all caloric matched between groups.
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And then non-low carbohydrate diet.
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So it's a more standard, I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 60% of calories from
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complex carbohydrates.
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And as I recall, the greatest weight loss, remember, same calories across groups, folks,
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was achieved with low carbohydrate plus caloric restriction.
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And I wondered why all the popular news venues didn't cover that study, but that's why I'm
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bringing it up now.
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I thought this is really interesting.
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And I'm somebody who's cycled low carbohydrate diet before.
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I find it hard to sleep after about three or four days of being on a low starch diet
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just personally.
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So I like to eat some starches, especially if exercising intensely or working intensely.
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That's just a little editorial there.
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But look, I know many people who do just feel better on a low carbohydrate diet.
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But what do you think of those data?
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Because it speaks to the idea that, okay, it's not just the total number of calories.
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It's not just the quality of those calories.
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Perhaps the timing of those calories and maybe carbohydrate restriction in conjunction with
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time-restricted feeding might be the best path for people who are looking to lose weight.
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No, I totally agree that when it comes to nutrition, quality, quantity, and timing,
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all these three matter.
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Nearly 40% of people who maintain healthy body weight, because 60% are overweight and
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obese, 40% are maintaining healthy body weight.
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And out of those 40%, I would say nearly majority of them are very aware about how much they
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are eating and what quality of food they are eating.
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So you're really an optimist.
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You're looking at the 40% of the glass that's, or should we say not full?
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That was a pun intended.
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But no, that's a very interesting way of looking at it.
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Rather than saying, why are 60% of Americans obese, saying, why are 40% not obese?
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That's a very interesting way to look at it.
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I mean, subconsciously, we're always making that decision.
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I mean, I'm sure that you are not going and eating cheeseburger every day because you
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want to improve.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I wouldn't feel good.
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I enjoy cheeseburger now and again, but no, certainly not at this stage or any stage of
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my life.
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00:27:39,580 --> 00:27:44,899
I think people, actually, you think the pandemic had a lot to do with this.
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00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:51,460
I think that people started to take a look at what they were doing to support or not
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00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:52,460
support their health generally.
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00:27:52,460 --> 00:27:55,220
I know people gained a lot of weight during the pandemic.
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Other people got really into fitness.
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I've seen some colleagues, you've always maintained, you've always been in good shape.
408
00:28:01,260 --> 00:28:04,020
Actually, this first time I've seen you in a while, you seem to have aged backwards.
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So you are a poster for your own ideas and hypotheses about time restricted feeding.
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00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,219
But I noticed that during the pandemic, a number of people emerged from the pandemic
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in better shape.
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Other people in much worse shape.
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It seemed like it was like a bimodal distribution there.
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So yeah, I get the sense that starting and stopping eating at more or less the same time
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each day, even if caloric restriction is not the main focus, has additional benefits.
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00:28:37,540 --> 00:28:41,340
And we talk about some of those benefits as they relate to the other things that impact
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health.
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So for instance, if you're starting and stopping eating at more or less the same times each
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day, are you sleeping better?
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00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:53,940
Are you getting more predictable shifts in alertness and sleepiness?
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Can you predict when you'll feel good enough to exercise?
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00:28:56,220 --> 00:29:00,860
Maybe we could talk about that because you, of course, are well known for time restricted
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00:29:00,860 --> 00:29:04,780
feeding and the science around that, but also other things as well, not the least of which
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is circadian biology generally.
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00:29:06,620 --> 00:29:14,419
So I always think of the main timekeepers for our system being feeding, light, activity,
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and social connection.
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00:29:15,419 --> 00:29:16,419
Did I miss?
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00:29:16,419 --> 00:29:17,419
And temperature.
429
00:29:17,419 --> 00:29:18,419
Yeah.
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00:29:18,419 --> 00:29:19,419
Yeah.
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00:29:19,419 --> 00:29:23,739
So how do these combine with one another and using timing that we begin and stop feeding
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as kind of an anchor point?
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00:29:24,739 --> 00:29:26,020
Can we explore that a little bit?
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Yeah.
435
00:29:27,020 --> 00:29:34,020
So we got into this beginning and end and then you asked for the calorie, how much calorie
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00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:36,940
will break the fast?
437
00:29:36,940 --> 00:29:44,300
One thing that I want the listeners and viewers to bring back to this timing of when we're
438
00:29:44,300 --> 00:29:50,260
breaking the fast because we equate health with weight, body weight.
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00:29:50,260 --> 00:29:57,180
And that's when we are talking about nutrition quality and quantity because both of them
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have impact.
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00:29:58,780 --> 00:30:04,379
So now let's think about mental health because a lot of people do struggle with mental health.
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They have anxiety or depression and also so gut health because there are a lot of people
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who also have acid reflux or heartburn.
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And we know that acid reflux or heartburn can be exacerbated by caffeine intake and
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empty stomach.
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Those who have acid reflux or heartburn, they're prone to that.
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00:30:29,020 --> 00:30:35,820
Then having black coffee in the morning before any food can upset their stomach.
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So that's why in those cases, it's very clearly that caffeine for them becomes the trigger
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that something, the food is supposed to come and then the stomach is not seeing the food.
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So it's overreacting, producing excess acid and that comes up to the esophagus and that's
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where they're experiencing.
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So if people have that kind of condition, then maybe they should consider when they
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drink their first coffee is breaking their overall fast or kind of putting their health
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at risk for acid reflux.
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00:31:10,220 --> 00:31:16,540
The other thing is people who have anxiety, panic attack, we know that caffeine can judge
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00:31:16,540 --> 00:31:17,540
you off.
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00:31:17,540 --> 00:31:18,540
Especially on an empty stomach.
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00:31:18,540 --> 00:31:20,100
Especially on an empty stomach.
459
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:24,379
So for them, again, caffeine can be a trigger.
460
00:31:24,379 --> 00:31:29,699
So that's why I want to kind of differentiate that there is this mental health and other
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00:31:29,699 --> 00:31:31,139
aspects of health.
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00:31:31,139 --> 00:31:37,860
And these are two clear examples where anxiety, panic attack, related to brain health or acid
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00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:41,379
reflux related to our gut health.
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In those cases, when we consume that caffeine in the morning can affect.
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And do you avoid caffeine in the morning?
466
00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:55,780
No, actually, here is the interesting history about caffeine.
467
00:31:55,780 --> 00:31:58,060
And this is something I did not know.
468
00:31:58,060 --> 00:32:04,220
And I was once invited to this history of nighttime activity.
469
00:32:04,220 --> 00:32:09,220
And maybe we can take a little bit of detour and talk about nighttime activity because
470
00:32:09,220 --> 00:32:13,020
that fascinates me as a circadian biologist.
471
00:32:13,020 --> 00:32:20,340
Because over the last 200,000 years, we assume that humans, homo sapiens evolved 200,000
472
00:32:20,340 --> 00:32:21,340
years ago.
473
00:32:21,340 --> 00:32:26,100
So we have been, as a species, we have been living on this planet for 200,000 years.
474
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:33,340
And only in the last, you can say, couple of thousand or 5,000 years when we came to
475
00:32:33,340 --> 00:32:39,340
control fire, or maybe you can even go back to 100,000 years, that is some debate.
476
00:32:39,340 --> 00:32:47,220
So then the question is, well, when you control fire and we lighted up the fire, and we could
477
00:32:47,220 --> 00:32:53,100
light up whenever we wanted, we can add fuel and we can stop the fire when we don't want
478
00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:55,620
it.
479
00:32:55,620 --> 00:33:04,179
That's the key ability in humans that differentiates them from all the other species.
480
00:33:04,179 --> 00:33:05,300
No other species.
481
00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:11,139
We can always say, yes, there are signs of this intelligent decision making.
482
00:33:11,139 --> 00:33:17,860
For example, we know many crows can make decisions, many animals, they kind of figure out, strategize
483
00:33:17,860 --> 00:33:19,500
how to get food.
484
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:25,800
But controlled use of fire is something very specific to human.
485
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:33,740
And when we started controlling fire, fire did not essentially extend the day because
486
00:33:33,740 --> 00:33:40,500
fire created an evening that was very different from what people did during the day.
487
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:47,060
And what people used to do during the day, they worked a lot, means gathering food was
488
00:33:47,060 --> 00:33:49,460
almost everything that we did.
489
00:33:49,460 --> 00:33:57,220
And so in the evening after we brought food, mostly tubers or maybe lentils to cook or
490
00:33:57,220 --> 00:34:05,820
once in a while animals so that we could barbecue, all of these things happened around fire.
491
00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:09,780
And fire was so expensive that it was mostly communal fire.
492
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:17,900
So if you go back to, for example, Maasai and all these populations that have no access
493
00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:25,540
to electricity and are still living kind of that historical life, fire is a communal event.
494
00:34:25,540 --> 00:34:27,500
And they sat around, they cooked food.
495
00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:29,500
And then what happened?
496
00:34:29,500 --> 00:34:30,820
They did not talk about work.
497
00:34:30,820 --> 00:34:33,420
They talked about culture.
498
00:34:33,420 --> 00:34:38,659
They sang, they danced, they strategize.
499
00:34:38,659 --> 00:34:43,500
That's how politics started, philosophy started, science started, all of these things that
500
00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:48,860
are very unique to human civilization started around fireside chat.
501
00:34:48,860 --> 00:34:53,340
So in that way, if you think about it, we are still doing fireside chat.
502
00:34:53,340 --> 00:34:57,980
The only thing is we have the microwave and the television, our social media.
503
00:34:57,980 --> 00:35:00,780
And now we chat with our phones.
504
00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:06,340
So we are hooked to that evening activity because that's when we are completely free
505
00:35:06,340 --> 00:35:10,980
from the pressure of the work and we want to express ourselves.
506
00:35:10,980 --> 00:35:12,540
That's our independent time.
507
00:35:12,540 --> 00:35:17,780
So that's why most people find it very difficult to do time-restricted eating and stop eating
508
00:35:17,780 --> 00:35:25,740
at six o'clock because it's ingrained in our even DNA that we want to eat and socialize
509
00:35:25,740 --> 00:35:28,140
in the evening.
510
00:35:28,140 --> 00:35:34,940
So now let's fast forward and see what is the role of coffee in this.
511
00:35:34,940 --> 00:35:41,020
If you look at coffee concoctions, particularly cafe, where people can come and have a little
512
00:35:41,020 --> 00:35:47,340
bit of coffee and socialize, it also started as an evening activity.
513
00:35:47,340 --> 00:35:56,580
And now we can go back to Istanbul because that's one place where cafes started in mid-16th
514
00:35:56,580 --> 00:35:57,580
century.
515
00:35:57,580 --> 00:36:02,500
So we are talking about 1540 to 1570.
516
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:04,660
And that's when...
517
00:36:04,660 --> 00:36:09,980
I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the name of historians who actually invited me.
518
00:36:09,980 --> 00:36:14,140
Okay, his name is Cemal Kefadar.
519
00:36:14,140 --> 00:36:17,500
And I must be butchering the name, but I'll try...
520
00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:18,580
We will provide the spelling.
521
00:36:18,580 --> 00:36:22,620
And the wonderful thing about social media is somebody will tell us on YouTube the proper
522
00:36:22,620 --> 00:36:23,620
pronunciation.
523
00:36:23,620 --> 00:36:24,779
So this is a great opportunity.
524
00:36:24,779 --> 00:36:28,500
If you know the proper pronunciation, please put it in the comments on YouTube.
525
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:32,259
Actually, I'm even checking right now in my EndNote library.
526
00:36:32,259 --> 00:36:33,700
It's not picking up that.
527
00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:34,700
That's right.
528
00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:35,700
We'll provide a link.
529
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:43,220
So what happened was coffee was introduced and people came and drank coffee and talked
530
00:36:43,220 --> 00:36:45,100
about politics.
531
00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:46,100
At night.
532
00:36:46,100 --> 00:36:47,100
At night, at evening.
533
00:36:47,100 --> 00:36:53,980
And it actually started with Sufi branch of Islam because they are the ones who consume
534
00:36:53,980 --> 00:36:55,859
coffee in the evening.
535
00:36:55,859 --> 00:37:00,740
And this is the branch of Islam where they actually sing and dance and all that happened
536
00:37:00,740 --> 00:37:02,140
in the evening.
537
00:37:02,140 --> 00:37:06,399
So singing and dancing by the Sufis.
538
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:14,820
And then here in Istanbul, people started congregating and having talk about politics.
539
00:37:14,820 --> 00:37:24,740
But then around the same time, in Turkey, there was a good sizeable number of Muslims
540
00:37:24,740 --> 00:37:26,900
who have to do five prayers a day.
541
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:28,600
Number of prayers at set time.
542
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,440
The first prayer is very early in the morning.
543
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,560
And then they figured out that if they wake up and immediately have coffee, then they
544
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,380
can stay awake for the first prayer.
545
00:37:38,380 --> 00:37:40,860
And in that way, they felt pretty good.
546
00:37:40,860 --> 00:37:41,860
They woke up.
547
00:37:41,860 --> 00:37:48,340
So that's how it started as a morning drink to stay awake and kind of get on with the
548
00:37:48,340 --> 00:37:49,620
day.
549
00:37:49,620 --> 00:37:53,580
But what happened was, I don't know whether you have ever tried Turkish coffee.
550
00:37:53,580 --> 00:37:54,580
It's very thick.
551
00:37:54,580 --> 00:37:55,580
Yeah.
552
00:37:55,580 --> 00:38:00,299
A few years ago, right before the pandemic, 2019, I traveled to Turkey.
553
00:38:00,299 --> 00:38:02,200
First of all, the food is amazing.
554
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,940
The coffee is indeed very, very thick.
555
00:38:04,940 --> 00:38:06,300
Yeah.
556
00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:12,340
And I have a pretty high caffeine tolerance from drinking so much coffee and yerba mate
557
00:38:12,340 --> 00:38:13,940
over the years and still do.
558
00:38:13,940 --> 00:38:15,300
I really enjoy it.
559
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,380
But yeah, it's very intense.
560
00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:24,620
So what you're saying is that coffee intake started as a way to extend into the night.
561
00:38:24,620 --> 00:38:29,100
The ability to extend into the night at all was because of the ability to harness fire.
562
00:38:29,100 --> 00:38:35,900
And then coffee's stimulatory properties were leveraged toward morning, which is essentially
563
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:38,100
like the way I think about it.
564
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:43,060
We did an episode on caffeine and someone else, Michael Pollan, not I, described it
565
00:38:43,060 --> 00:38:47,140
this way, that you're sort of taking a loan out on your energy bank account with coffee.
566
00:38:47,140 --> 00:38:48,660
You're suppressing the adenosine system.
567
00:38:48,660 --> 00:38:50,160
Adenosine makes you sleepy.
568
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:51,980
But that adenosine system will kick in later.
569
00:38:51,980 --> 00:38:55,779
So it's a credit card of sorts with an interest rate.
570
00:38:55,780 --> 00:39:01,540
And the interest being an energetic lag that you're going to experience in the afternoon.
571
00:39:01,540 --> 00:39:02,540
Yeah.
572
00:39:02,540 --> 00:39:08,060
But what happened was the strong coffee, that gave heartburn and acid reflux to a lot of
573
00:39:08,060 --> 00:39:09,460
people.
574
00:39:09,460 --> 00:39:14,300
So then they started eating something with coffee.
575
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:17,500
And that's how the culture of breakfast started in Turkey.
576
00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:22,380
So coffee actually led to the development of breakfast, not the other way around.
577
00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:24,020
And that, yeah.
578
00:39:24,020 --> 00:39:25,020
That's very heartening.
579
00:39:25,020 --> 00:39:34,140
Again, no pun intended for the caffeine lovers among us, which I count myself one of those.
580
00:39:34,140 --> 00:39:37,580
So essentially the food before coffee became breakfast.
581
00:39:37,580 --> 00:39:43,340
So you kind of give something to your stomach so it's busy digesting that.
582
00:39:43,340 --> 00:39:49,460
And then when the coffee comes in, it's not reacting to coffee and creating acid reflux.
583
00:39:49,460 --> 00:39:51,060
So it wasn't as fascinating.
584
00:39:51,060 --> 00:39:55,140
So it wasn't that breakfast is necessary on its own.
585
00:39:55,140 --> 00:40:00,740
It was essentially a buffer against the gastric distress caused by caffeine intake.
586
00:40:00,740 --> 00:40:03,720
At least in that culture, in that context.
587
00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:07,100
We cannot say that whether the same thing happened in all over the world where coffee
588
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:11,220
is not consumed, but still people eat something in the morning.
589
00:40:11,220 --> 00:40:15,299
You said you start your first meal of the day at around eight.
590
00:40:15,299 --> 00:40:16,299
What time do you wake up?
591
00:40:16,299 --> 00:40:17,299
I wake up around six.
592
00:40:17,299 --> 00:40:18,740
I started at six.
593
00:40:18,740 --> 00:40:20,220
What time do you have your first caffeine?
594
00:40:20,220 --> 00:40:21,939
No, actually I have...
595
00:40:21,939 --> 00:40:25,939
So that's why I brought up this story because I have coffee after my breakfast.
596
00:40:25,939 --> 00:40:26,939
Fantastic.
597
00:40:26,939 --> 00:40:31,020
I'm a big proponent of delaying caffeine intake for a few hours after waking for other reasons
598
00:40:31,020 --> 00:40:35,259
that my listeners have heard me talk about endlessly, so I won't bother with that now.
599
00:40:35,259 --> 00:40:43,020
But I think just suffice to say that allowing some of the natural waking up signals to occur
600
00:40:43,020 --> 00:40:49,939
and using light to kind of clear away and adenosine to further extend and activity is
601
00:40:49,940 --> 00:40:53,100
better than using a stimulant, but until a few hours later.
602
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:57,300
This is fascinating because I've never thought about the link between extension into the
603
00:40:57,300 --> 00:41:24,300
night socialization or socializing rather, feeding and caffeine.
57523
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