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(lively instrumental music)
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- The main camp of
Auschwitz was like a small town,
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00:00:27,068 --> 00:00:29,612
with its gossiping and chatting.
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00:00:30,572 --> 00:00:33,033
There was a canteen.
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00:00:33,074 --> 00:00:35,201
There was a cinema.
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00:00:35,243 --> 00:00:37,412
(cheery song in German)
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There was a sports club
of which I was a member.
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00:00:43,585 --> 00:00:46,338
It was all fun
and entertainment,
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00:00:46,379 --> 00:00:48,757
just like a small town.
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00:00:50,425 --> 00:00:53,386
The special situation
at Auschwitz
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led to friendships,
of which I'm still saying today,
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00:00:57,265 --> 00:00:59,768
I like to look back on with joy.
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***
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We were convinced
by our world view
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that we had been betrayed
by the entire world,
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00:01:16,117 --> 00:01:18,411
and that there was
a great conspiracy
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00:01:18,453 --> 00:01:20,789
of the Jews against us.
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- But surely
when it comes
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to children,
you must have realized
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that they couldn't possibly
have done anything to you.
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- The children, they're not
the enemy at the moment.
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The enemy is the blood
inside them.
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- A former guard
at the notorious
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Auschwitz concentration camp
has gone on trial in Germany.
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Oskar Gröning is charged
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with more than 300,000 counts
of accessory to murder.
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Gröning is now 93 years old.
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00:02:05,834 --> 00:02:08,837
(sorrowful music)
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- My children grew up
knowing our family had a secret,
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a burden. They would ask me
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why they don't have
any grandparents,
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aunts, uncles.
***
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00:02:27,689 --> 00:02:30,650
If I think about
my Holocaust experience,
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those few minutes
on the ramp in Auschwitz
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00:02:34,529 --> 00:02:36,906
were really the defining moments
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00:02:36,948 --> 00:02:37,741
in my life.
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00:02:39,284 --> 00:02:42,495
- Try to imagine
that tomorrow
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someone comes and tells you,
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you have to leave your home,
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00:02:47,542 --> 00:02:50,712
your parents are taken away,
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00:02:50,754 --> 00:02:54,632
and you don't know
if you ever see them and whe.
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00:02:54,674 --> 00:02:59,888
And eventually it's over
and you live.
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00:03:01,389 --> 00:03:04,559
And then you find out
you're alone.
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00:03:06,394 --> 00:03:08,730
You have no parents.
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00:03:10,190 --> 00:03:12,400
You have no family.
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Is it over, ever?
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00:03:17,572 --> 00:03:19,866
- I first heard
about Oskar Gröning
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00:03:19,908 --> 00:03:23,536
when Thomas Walther,
who was a former judge
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00:03:23,578 --> 00:03:26,706
and an advocate,
a lawyer in Germany,
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00:03:26,748 --> 00:03:29,709
approached me and told me
that he would like
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00:03:29,751 --> 00:03:33,254
to talk to me about
my experience in Auschwitz
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00:03:33,296 --> 00:03:35,757
in connection with a trial
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00:03:35,799 --> 00:03:39,511
that is being held
for Oskar Gröning.
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00:03:39,552 --> 00:03:42,555
I felt that, "What have I got
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00:03:42,597 --> 00:03:44,557
"to do
with this particular person?
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I certainly didn't know him."
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00:03:49,437 --> 00:03:51,398
I did a considerable amount
of thinking.
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You know, first of all,
I had to decide
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00:03:53,608 --> 00:03:57,237
this question
as to whether a 94-year-old man
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00:03:57,278 --> 00:04:00,073
who did this terrible deed
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00:04:00,115 --> 00:04:02,075
70 years before is still
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00:04:02,117 --> 00:04:04,661
guilty of the crime.
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00:04:07,789 --> 00:04:10,750
- The first time I've heard
of Oskar Gröning
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00:04:10,792 --> 00:04:15,088
was from Thomas.
He tried to convince me to come
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00:04:15,130 --> 00:04:17,757
to Germany as a witness.
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00:04:17,799 --> 00:04:23,596
At first, my gut reaction was,
"To Germany? No way.
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00:04:23,638 --> 00:04:26,683
Why would I go
and put myself through
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00:04:26,725 --> 00:04:30,520
all the memories
and all the horrible feelings
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00:04:30,562 --> 00:04:35,358
of being
a 16-year-old slave again?"
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00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,195
***
But Thomas was persistent.
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00:04:39,237 --> 00:04:40,947
He said, "It's not only
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00:04:40,989 --> 00:04:43,783
"about Oskar Gröning,
and you and the past;
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it's about establishing
a precedent for the future."
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00:04:47,871 --> 00:04:51,583
- Gröning is very old,
but nobody was too old
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00:04:51,624 --> 00:04:53,710
to be killed in Auschwitz.
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00:04:53,752 --> 00:04:57,964
If you take part in killing
as a 20-year-old man,
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00:04:58,006 --> 00:05:01,968
then you can be prosecuted
as a 50-year-old man,
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00:05:02,010 --> 00:05:05,430
or also as a 90-year-old man.
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00:05:05,472 --> 00:05:07,640
- Look, for a long time,
80
00:05:07,682 --> 00:05:09,517
I feel that I have
a responsibility
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00:05:09,559 --> 00:05:11,978
as a survivor to make sure
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that this terrible event,
the Holocaust, should not
be forgotten.
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00:05:15,648 --> 00:05:19,652
This trial is a defining moment
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00:05:19,694 --> 00:05:21,821
in the history of the Holocaust.
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00:05:21,863 --> 00:05:25,867
The fact
that so many Nazi perpetrats
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00:05:25,909 --> 00:05:30,413
went unpunished after the war...
But Thomas told me
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00:05:30,455 --> 00:05:33,667
it was not just about me
and the past -
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00:05:33,708 --> 00:05:35,794
it was also about
setting a precedent
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00:05:35,835 --> 00:05:38,838
for the future.
And so I felt
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00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,050
that I must be a witness
at the trial.
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00:05:52,894 --> 00:05:55,689
- Lüneburg is a tiny city
in the north of Germany.
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00:05:55,730 --> 00:05:57,899
You got your occasional murder
and you got
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00:05:57,941 --> 00:06:01,361
your everyday trial business,
but a trial of that size...
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00:06:01,403 --> 00:06:03,822
Lüneburg had never experienced
anything like it
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00:06:03,863 --> 00:06:06,908
and hardly any German city
ever has.
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00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:09,536
The trial took place in Lüneburg
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because this is where
Gröning is living,
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00:06:10,995 --> 00:06:13,540
and according to German law,
you have to be tried
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00:06:13,581 --> 00:06:15,792
by the court
that is in the vicinity
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00:06:15,834 --> 00:06:18,628
of where you live. So they set
it up in a community centre
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00:06:18,670 --> 00:06:20,296
where they could house
enough people,
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00:06:20,338 --> 00:06:22,757
where they could house all these
plaintiffs and all the lawyers,
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00:06:22,799 --> 00:06:25,802
and all the media attention,
and also have
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00:06:25,844 --> 00:06:28,054
enough seats for public because
public was supposed to come
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and see and, you know,
follow the proceedings.
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***
-
When I was a child,
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00:07:42,921 --> 00:07:46,675
nobody talked about the war
in my surrounding.
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00:07:46,716 --> 00:07:48,760
At school, we didn't hear
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00:07:48,802 --> 00:07:52,138
a single word about the war.
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I had to learn
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00:07:54,015 --> 00:07:55,809
when I was 16 and 17
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00:07:55,850 --> 00:07:58,019
in some movies or in some books
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that there was a war
that started in my country.
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00:08:02,857 --> 00:08:05,485
Some liked to talk
about the war,
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00:08:05,527 --> 00:08:07,821
but only what they suffered
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00:08:07,862 --> 00:08:11,491
during the war, or what heroes
they were during the war.
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00:08:11,533 --> 00:08:13,993
Nobody talked about the victims.
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And that was really hard for us
to understand:
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00:08:18,873 --> 00:08:22,168
that we had so many criminals
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00:08:22,210 --> 00:08:24,504
in our country,
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00:08:24,546 --> 00:08:26,172
millions of them,
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00:08:26,214 --> 00:08:29,926
and nobody explained to us
what really happened.
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00:08:29,968 --> 00:08:33,847
Both of my parents
supported the Nazis.
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00:08:33,888 --> 00:08:38,685
My mother just followed
her husband.
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00:08:38,727 --> 00:08:41,062
My father was a Nazi
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00:08:41,104 --> 00:08:42,856
from the very beginning.
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00:08:42,897 --> 00:08:48,528
He died '53 -
he committed suicide.
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00:08:48,570 --> 00:08:50,697
He was still stuck
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00:08:50,739 --> 00:08:53,283
to the old system of Nazi time.
130
00:08:54,909 --> 00:08:59,080
We have old fascists
and new fascists of today.
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00:09:01,916 --> 00:09:04,586
One organization that helped
in the Gröning trial
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00:09:04,627 --> 00:09:09,049
was the Anti-Fascist
organization.
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00:09:09,090 --> 00:09:11,468
As the title says,
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00:09:11,509 --> 00:09:13,887
they fight against fascism.
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00:09:13,928 --> 00:09:16,890
And it happened 70 years ago
in our country,
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00:09:16,931 --> 00:09:19,893
and it happens today.
-
Sieg Heil!
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(indistinct talking
and shouting)
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00:09:25,273 --> 00:09:28,568
There was some disturbance
from right-wing people.
139
00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:31,237
So the lawyer
Thomas Walther called
140
00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:34,908
six weeks before
the Gröning trial started here,
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00:09:34,949 --> 00:09:38,078
that we can prepare ourselves
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00:09:38,119 --> 00:09:41,748
and make a system of banners
to keep away
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00:09:41,790 --> 00:09:45,418
the Holocaust deniers
from the survivors
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00:09:45,460 --> 00:09:48,129
and their relatives.
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00:09:52,967 --> 00:09:55,804
- I'm an Anti-Fascist. It's, uh,
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00:09:55,845 --> 00:09:58,181
what kind of society
I want to live.
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00:09:58,223 --> 00:10:01,601
And we have a lot of racism
here in Germany
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00:10:01,643 --> 00:10:03,603
and lots of houses are burning
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00:10:03,645 --> 00:10:07,107
because racist
and fascist people
150
00:10:07,148 --> 00:10:09,943
are mobilizing against refugees,
and lots of people
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00:10:09,984 --> 00:10:13,446
get killed. And if we know
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00:10:13,488 --> 00:10:15,615
our history, then...
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we can't do nothing now.
154
00:10:17,867 --> 00:10:19,994
So we have to act now too.
155
00:10:21,496 --> 00:10:25,000
- What may be one of the last
big Holocaust trials opened
today in Germany.
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00:10:25,041 --> 00:10:27,961
- Under a new legal theory
that death camp workers
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00:10:28,003 --> 00:10:30,964
can be held accountable
for the Holocaust,
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00:10:31,006 --> 00:10:33,633
even if they didn't murder
anyone with their own hands.
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00:10:33,675 --> 00:10:36,302
- The man being charged
admits he was at Auschwitz
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00:10:36,344 --> 00:10:40,306
but says he didn't kill anybody.
He just took the victims' money.
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00:10:40,348 --> 00:10:43,143
This court will now decide
whether the so-called
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"Accountant of Auschwitz"
is also guilty
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00:10:45,895 --> 00:10:48,940
as an accessory to mass murder.
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00:10:49,983 --> 00:10:52,902
- The first day,
11 Holocaust deniers came.
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00:10:52,944 --> 00:10:55,864
(people chanting and shouting
in German)
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00:10:55,905 --> 00:10:59,409
They shouted out loud
and even shared
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00:10:59,451 --> 00:11:01,202
some papers.
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00:11:03,121 --> 00:11:05,665
Our friends put up the banner
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to show that there will be
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00:11:07,709 --> 00:11:10,211
justice for the survivors.
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00:11:42,452 --> 00:11:45,163
(talking in German)
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00:11:55,215 --> 00:11:58,551
The survivors
and their relatives
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always had protection
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00:12:00,929 --> 00:12:03,139
against our right-wing people.
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00:12:04,933 --> 00:12:07,060
And that was important for us,
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00:12:07,102 --> 00:12:09,270
and also very important
for them.
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00:12:18,113 --> 00:12:21,408
- The first day,
it was a frenzy,
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00:12:21,449 --> 00:12:23,243
it was amazing.
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00:12:23,284 --> 00:12:26,913
Everyone everywhere in Europe,
all the major cities.
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00:12:26,955 --> 00:12:29,124
- We started being mobbed,
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00:12:29,165 --> 00:12:31,876
literally, by various TV cameras
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00:12:31,918 --> 00:12:32,877
and journalists
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00:12:32,919 --> 00:12:34,629
who wanted to know opinions
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00:12:34,671 --> 00:12:36,923
and where we were standing
on this issue.
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00:12:36,965 --> 00:12:40,093
***
-
There's a lot of merits
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to have a person,
even 70 years after,
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00:12:42,429 --> 00:12:45,765
to bring him to court.
Nobody should be able
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00:12:45,807 --> 00:12:48,768
to get away
with crimes against humanity,
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00:12:48,810 --> 00:12:50,937
against Jews.
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00:12:50,979 --> 00:12:53,106
- "The survivor of Auschwitz,"
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00:12:53,148 --> 00:12:55,108
sitting in a German court,
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00:12:55,150 --> 00:12:58,945
surrounded by German judges
and German attorneys,
193
00:12:58,987 --> 00:13:01,990
and being treated with respect.
194
00:13:02,032 --> 00:13:04,951
And that was in itself
195
00:13:04,993 --> 00:13:07,787
an interesting experience
for me.
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00:13:07,829 --> 00:13:11,416
At the time, I was good friends
197
00:13:11,458 --> 00:13:15,211
with Rainer Höss,
and Rainer Höss
198
00:13:15,253 --> 00:13:18,882
is a big advocate
against the neo-Nazis.
199
00:13:18,923 --> 00:13:22,469
- I'm the grandson
of Rudolf Höss,
200
00:13:22,510 --> 00:13:25,472
the commandant of the Auschwitz
concentration camp.
201
00:13:25,513 --> 00:13:31,144
He was responsible
for 1.1 to 1.3 million killings
202
00:13:31,186 --> 00:13:33,146
at Auschwitz.
203
00:13:33,188 --> 00:13:35,315
Hate is a powerful weapon,
and it was
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00:13:35,357 --> 00:13:38,234
in the Second World War,
and it is today.
205
00:13:38,276 --> 00:13:42,489
The Gröning trial, it is
important for our growing youth.
206
00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:46,826
In the past, we only had
the voices of the survivors,
207
00:13:46,868 --> 00:13:49,037
of the victims there.
208
00:13:49,079 --> 00:13:52,207
But nobody really listened
to the perpetrators.
209
00:13:54,751 --> 00:13:57,379
(cameras clicking)
210
00:14:03,301 --> 00:14:06,388
(cameras clicking)
211
00:14:35,583 --> 00:14:39,879
- We were sitting in one section
of the courtroom
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00:14:39,921 --> 00:14:42,215
and opposite us
213
00:14:42,257 --> 00:14:46,052
this frail old man
walking with a walker
214
00:14:46,094 --> 00:14:48,430
walked in.
(cameras clicking)
215
00:14:50,306 --> 00:14:53,393
I felt cold looking at this man.
216
00:14:53,435 --> 00:14:58,106
The whole thing was
a surreal type of experience.
217
00:14:58,148 --> 00:15:00,066
That's the only way
I can describe it.
218
00:15:00,108 --> 00:15:03,278
- I did feel sympathy for him.
219
00:15:03,319 --> 00:15:06,906
He looked
like a pitiful old man.
220
00:15:06,948 --> 00:15:11,911
But that all changed
the moment he sat down,
221
00:15:11,953 --> 00:15:13,913
and he looked around,
222
00:15:13,955 --> 00:15:16,791
and he put his arms like that.
223
00:15:16,833 --> 00:15:19,419
(cameras clicking)
224
00:15:19,461 --> 00:15:21,421
You know, I thought,
225
00:15:21,463 --> 00:15:23,548
"You are the same Nazi,
226
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:27,927
the same person
who thought you were gods,
227
00:15:27,969 --> 00:15:31,222
and we were vermin... still."
228
00:15:31,264 --> 00:15:35,310
So all my sympathy vanished
at that point.
229
00:15:43,610 --> 00:15:46,112
- The trial made big headlines
because Oskar Gröning
230
00:15:46,154 --> 00:15:48,740
was one of the few,
if not the first,
231
00:15:48,782 --> 00:15:51,993
Auschwitz accused who said
that he will basically
232
00:15:52,035 --> 00:15:54,287
say something in court.
- He told
233
00:15:54,329 --> 00:15:57,290
what really happened,
what he experienced
234
00:15:57,332 --> 00:15:59,292
during the time in Auschwitz.
235
00:15:59,334 --> 00:16:03,171
Most of them tell some lies,
236
00:16:03,213 --> 00:16:05,173
what they did during that time,
237
00:16:05,215 --> 00:16:07,467
but Mr. Gröning
told the reality.
238
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:10,261
He told the truth
about his time,
239
00:16:10,303 --> 00:16:13,348
and that was very special.
240
00:16:15,725 --> 00:16:18,019
***
241
00:16:21,022 --> 00:16:22,649
- He basically admitted
242
00:16:22,691 --> 00:16:25,318
that he collected goods,
he collected the luggage
243
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,362
of the people that would be
brought to Auschwitz.
244
00:16:27,404 --> 00:16:31,491
He would skim through
the luggage for valuables.
245
00:16:31,533 --> 00:16:33,827
He was one of the very few
Nazi perpetrators that admitted
246
00:16:33,868 --> 00:16:36,329
in court that people were
plundered of their belongings
247
00:16:36,371 --> 00:16:38,998
and didn't really expect to be
248
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,667
given back to them.
249
00:16:40,709 --> 00:16:44,045
So in the consequence, everyone
working there knew people
250
00:16:44,087 --> 00:16:46,047
were brought there to die.
251
00:17:07,902 --> 00:17:09,029
- I think he's a symbol,
252
00:17:09,070 --> 00:17:11,364
and symbols often get
unfairly targeted.
253
00:17:11,406 --> 00:17:15,201
Had he lived
at a time or at an age
254
00:17:15,243 --> 00:17:19,205
where the real perpetrators
had been effectively punishe,
255
00:17:19,247 --> 00:17:21,291
probably nobody would have
gotten to him,
256
00:17:21,332 --> 00:17:23,460
he would have been
so low down on the list.
257
00:17:23,501 --> 00:17:25,545
The real issue
is what did Germany do,
258
00:17:25,587 --> 00:17:28,715
not only during the war, but
what did it do after the war.
259
00:17:28,757 --> 00:17:32,594
And what it did after the war
is disgraceful.
260
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,101
(soft music)
261
00:17:47,817 --> 00:17:50,070
- Here. "Do not bend."
262
00:17:50,111 --> 00:17:52,405
Ha! Look what I got here.
263
00:17:52,447 --> 00:17:55,408
This one do not bend,
that's fan mail.
264
00:17:55,450 --> 00:17:57,660
There's a picture in here
and I have to sign it.
265
00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:00,705
Here.
266
00:18:00,747 --> 00:18:03,166
He wants me to sign
the pictures for him.
267
00:18:03,208 --> 00:18:05,418
Ah, this is a rare one.
268
00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:08,421
I stood on the headquarters.
269
00:18:08,463 --> 00:18:10,590
Ah, that's also a rare one.
270
00:18:10,632 --> 00:18:13,635
I landed on the beaches
of Normandy.
271
00:18:13,677 --> 00:18:16,596
I was a member
of General Patton's army.
272
00:18:16,638 --> 00:18:20,308
We pursued the Germans
back across France,
273
00:18:20,350 --> 00:18:22,394
back into Germany.
274
00:18:22,435 --> 00:18:24,938
And by that time, I was assigned
275
00:18:24,979 --> 00:18:27,649
as a war-crimes investigator.
276
00:18:27,691 --> 00:18:30,443
I believe I was the first
war-crimes investigator
277
00:18:30,485 --> 00:18:32,987
in the United States Army.
278
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:36,449
The problem I faced
279
00:18:36,491 --> 00:18:38,952
as the chief prosecutor
at Nuremberg
280
00:18:38,993 --> 00:18:41,287
was what do I ask for?
281
00:18:41,329 --> 00:18:44,124
Here were 3000 men
282
00:18:44,165 --> 00:18:46,960
who everyday went out
and murdered in cold blood
283
00:18:47,002 --> 00:18:49,004
thousands of people,
284
00:18:49,045 --> 00:18:52,841
including children shot,
one shot at a time.
285
00:18:52,882 --> 00:18:56,344
And I felt that I...
286
00:18:56,386 --> 00:18:59,472
could not possibly do justice
287
00:18:59,514 --> 00:19:02,475
to the million people
who had been killed.
288
00:19:02,517 --> 00:19:05,520
But if I could establish
a rule of law
289
00:19:05,562 --> 00:19:08,481
which could protect
humankind in the future,
290
00:19:08,523 --> 00:19:11,526
that would make this trial
more meaningful
291
00:19:11,568 --> 00:19:15,405
than whatever I would do
with these handful of murderers.
292
00:19:16,531 --> 00:19:19,117
This document,
which I haven't had in my hands
293
00:19:19,159 --> 00:19:22,328
since 1948 maybe,
294
00:19:22,370 --> 00:19:24,330
it's a list of my defendants
295
00:19:24,372 --> 00:19:26,332
in the Einsatzgruppen Trial
at Nuremberg.
296
00:19:26,374 --> 00:19:29,336
And I had prepared
a list showing the names
297
00:19:29,377 --> 00:19:33,173
of the defendants, the position
they occupied. For example,
298
00:19:33,214 --> 00:19:37,010
Ohlendorf, commanding officer
of Einsatzgruppen D,
299
00:19:37,052 --> 00:19:39,471
killed 90,000.
300
00:19:39,512 --> 00:19:41,723
All of them pleaded not guilty!
301
00:19:41,765 --> 00:19:45,477
Nobody came in and said, I did
anything. Oh, my goodness, no!
302
00:19:45,518 --> 00:19:48,355
They said this was necessary
303
00:19:48,396 --> 00:19:50,231
to carry out Hitler's orders.
304
00:19:50,273 --> 00:19:53,526
And there was a war going on,
what do you want us to do?
305
00:19:53,568 --> 00:19:55,862
I had 22 defendants
selected by me
306
00:19:55,904 --> 00:19:59,616
out of 3000 mass murderers who
murdered over a million people!
307
00:19:59,657 --> 00:20:01,993
And I could prove it!
I had all their top-secret
308
00:20:02,035 --> 00:20:05,497
contemporaneous documents.
No question about the facts.
309
00:20:05,538 --> 00:20:09,542
I wanted top people, planners,
310
00:20:09,584 --> 00:20:11,711
people who had high command,
311
00:20:11,753 --> 00:20:15,965
responsible positions.
Their specific assignment was
312
00:20:16,007 --> 00:20:18,385
to murder, in cold blood,
313
00:20:18,426 --> 00:20:20,553
every single Jewish man,
woman and child
314
00:20:20,595 --> 00:20:23,973
they could lay their hands on.
315
00:20:24,015 --> 00:20:25,558
And I knew
316
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,062
that picking
22 defendants out of 3000 men
317
00:20:29,104 --> 00:20:31,106
is only a poor sampling
318
00:20:31,147 --> 00:20:33,066
for the ridiculous reason
319
00:20:33,108 --> 00:20:34,859
that we only had
22 seats in the dock.
320
00:20:34,901 --> 00:20:38,905
***
Did we seek to do justice?
321
00:20:38,947 --> 00:20:40,448
Of course not.
322
00:20:40,490 --> 00:20:43,785
Because we'd still be there
trying Nazis to this day.
323
00:20:43,827 --> 00:20:46,913
So you try to make
a statement of principle.
324
00:20:46,955 --> 00:20:49,582
The principle is don't do this,
it's a crime against humanity.
325
00:20:49,624 --> 00:20:52,419
Stop doing it!
If you insist upon doing it,
326
00:20:52,460 --> 00:20:54,504
we'll try to catch you
if you're a leader
327
00:20:54,546 --> 00:20:56,589
and put you away
so you won't do it again,
328
00:20:56,631 --> 00:20:58,800
and others will be deterred
from doing it.
329
00:20:59,592 --> 00:21:01,886
And so,
when the presiding justice,
330
00:21:01,928 --> 00:21:05,682
Michael Musmanno,
opened the trial, he said...
331
00:21:05,724 --> 00:21:08,685
- We're now ready to hear
the presentation
332
00:21:08,727 --> 00:21:10,770
by the prosecution.
-
I then went on
333
00:21:10,812 --> 00:21:13,940
to say, "Vengeance is not
our goal..."
334
00:21:13,982 --> 00:21:17,861
...nor do we seek merely
a just retribution.
335
00:21:19,988 --> 00:21:22,115
We ask this court
336
00:21:22,157 --> 00:21:25,618
to affirm
by international penal action
337
00:21:25,660 --> 00:21:29,581
man's right to live
in peace and dignity,
338
00:21:29,622 --> 00:21:32,751
regardless of his race or creed.
339
00:21:34,336 --> 00:21:36,463
The case we present
340
00:21:36,504 --> 00:21:39,215
is a plea of humanity
341
00:21:39,257 --> 00:21:42,469
"...to law." Because really,
342
00:21:42,510 --> 00:21:44,846
that's what I was trying
to accomplish.
343
00:21:46,681 --> 00:21:49,142
- Nuremberg was a trial
that marked
344
00:21:49,184 --> 00:21:52,854
the beginning of international
criminal law as we know it.
345
00:21:54,356 --> 00:21:57,150
Notorious Nazi criminals
tried at Nuremberg
346
00:21:57,192 --> 00:21:59,611
included Herman Goering...
347
00:22:01,196 --> 00:22:02,864
...Rudolf Hess,
348
00:22:03,865 --> 00:22:07,494
many, many others. But
the trials themselves were not
349
00:22:07,535 --> 00:22:09,704
well received
by the German public. They were
350
00:22:09,746 --> 00:22:12,707
perceived to be
victor's justice.
351
00:22:13,875 --> 00:22:15,877
- Nobody feels like sitting
and thinking
352
00:22:15,919 --> 00:22:18,630
about their crimes.
They want to move on.
353
00:22:18,672 --> 00:22:20,590
And some of that is legitimate.
354
00:22:20,632 --> 00:22:22,717
This is a country that has been
turned into rubble.
355
00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:25,720
And it becomes a question
of rebuilding,
356
00:22:25,762 --> 00:22:29,057
brick by brick.
So the last thing people
357
00:22:29,099 --> 00:22:30,975
want to do is sit around
and talk about their crimes
358
00:22:31,017 --> 00:22:34,396
and their guilt
and how they devastated Europe.
359
00:22:38,775 --> 00:22:40,694
- At the Hall
of Justice in Nuremberg,
360
00:22:40,735 --> 00:22:44,197
history's greatest trial
nears its fateful close.
361
00:22:44,239 --> 00:22:48,493
- The outcome was most of
the defendants were convicted.
362
00:22:48,535 --> 00:22:49,869
There were a few acquittals.
363
00:22:49,911 --> 00:22:53,039
Some of the defendants
were sentenced
364
00:22:53,081 --> 00:22:55,875
to die, and they were executed.
365
00:22:58,086 --> 00:23:01,297
The new German government,
as it was formed,
366
00:23:01,339 --> 00:23:03,633
lobbied intensively
367
00:23:03,675 --> 00:23:05,927
to bring the trials
to an end, and lobbied
368
00:23:05,969 --> 00:23:08,722
to have people who were
convicted at Nuremberg -
369
00:23:08,763 --> 00:23:11,558
even people who were sentenced
to death at Nuremberg -
370
00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:14,811
released. And most of them were.
371
00:23:14,853 --> 00:23:18,690
- After the Second World War,
the German system didn't fail
372
00:23:18,732 --> 00:23:20,775
to prosecute Nazi war criminals;
373
00:23:20,817 --> 00:23:23,403
it deliberately decided
not to prosecute them
374
00:23:23,445 --> 00:23:26,072
because many of the judges
were Nazi war criminals.
375
00:23:26,114 --> 00:23:30,118
There is evidence
that a very high percentage
376
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,289
of German judges, particularly
West German judges between 1945
377
00:23:34,330 --> 00:23:36,458
and 1967 were Nazis.
378
00:23:36,499 --> 00:23:38,418
Uh, I don't say former Nazis,
379
00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:41,588
I say Nazis.
People who sympathized
380
00:23:41,629 --> 00:23:43,590
with the Nazis.
-
The Ministry of Justice
381
00:23:43,631 --> 00:23:46,468
are like 99% former Nazis.
382
00:23:46,509 --> 00:23:48,678
And they are the ones who are
383
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,765
creating and defining
the new legal system.
384
00:23:51,806 --> 00:23:54,976
- They were sitting in judgement
of themselves.
385
00:23:55,018 --> 00:23:58,146
And obviously, the result was
terrible, terrible injustice.
386
00:24:14,162 --> 00:24:16,748
(inaudible talking)
387
00:24:30,095 --> 00:24:31,971
***
388
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,076
***
389
00:25:02,919 --> 00:25:04,879
So it's a terrible,
terrible record
390
00:25:04,921 --> 00:25:07,173
where almost nobody
is convicted.
391
00:25:07,215 --> 00:25:09,175
And again, there's
no political will for it.
392
00:25:09,217 --> 00:25:12,387
The vast majority of Germans
find these trials
393
00:25:12,429 --> 00:25:15,015
kind of cathartic and perfect
394
00:25:15,056 --> 00:25:18,018
because they show the horrors
of places like Auschwitz,
395
00:25:18,059 --> 00:25:21,521
they nail a few, you know,
bad apples to the wall,
396
00:25:21,563 --> 00:25:24,858
and the rest of them
look like innocent people
397
00:25:24,899 --> 00:25:26,943
who didn't deserve
to be punished anyway,
398
00:25:26,985 --> 00:25:30,071
because they're not really
dangerous outside of
the camp setting.
399
00:25:30,113 --> 00:25:33,700
And this is where, for me, these
trials are such a disaster.
400
00:25:33,742 --> 00:25:35,869
- Every country, just about,
401
00:25:35,910 --> 00:25:38,872
has difficult parts of its past
402
00:25:38,913 --> 00:25:42,542
that it, uh... struggles to...
403
00:25:42,584 --> 00:25:45,045
to come to grips with.
404
00:25:45,086 --> 00:25:48,798
That's true in the United States
still, I would say,
405
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,760
with respect to slavery
and its aftermath.
406
00:25:51,801 --> 00:25:53,887
It was certainly true in Germany
407
00:25:53,928 --> 00:25:56,890
with respect to Nazi genocide
408
00:25:56,931 --> 00:25:59,309
and crimes against humanity.
409
00:25:59,351 --> 00:26:01,895
Imagine a population
410
00:26:01,936 --> 00:26:04,773
in which
a significant percentage
411
00:26:04,814 --> 00:26:07,901
of the fathers, brothers, sons
412
00:26:07,942 --> 00:26:10,570
took part in these crimes.
413
00:26:10,612 --> 00:26:12,739
Later on, in ensuing decades,
414
00:26:12,781 --> 00:26:16,826
grandfathers all over Germany
had done this.
415
00:26:16,868 --> 00:26:19,579
It was very difficult
for the German public
416
00:26:19,621 --> 00:26:22,332
to accept the idea
417
00:26:22,374 --> 00:26:25,418
of large-scale prosecutions,
and I don't think there was
418
00:26:25,460 --> 00:26:29,923
great enthusiasm among
prosecutors either.
- I'd say in 1945,
419
00:26:29,964 --> 00:26:33,093
there were probably around
800,000 members of the SS.
420
00:26:33,134 --> 00:26:34,761
And that's what
we're dealing with.
421
00:26:34,803 --> 00:26:37,931
The Germans between 1947
422
00:26:37,972 --> 00:26:40,934
and up to the present
investigate
423
00:26:40,975 --> 00:26:42,936
over 100,000 of these people.
424
00:26:42,977 --> 00:26:46,773
Of those, they bring
about 6,200 to trial.
425
00:26:46,815 --> 00:26:49,776
Of that, the convictions
426
00:26:49,818 --> 00:26:52,946
for perpetrating murder is 124.
427
00:26:52,987 --> 00:26:56,950
124 life sentences
of over 6,000 people tried.
428
00:26:56,991 --> 00:26:59,077
- I still have nightmares about
429
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,705
that famous photograph
of the German soldier
430
00:27:01,746 --> 00:27:04,374
shooting the mother
and her baby,
431
00:27:04,416 --> 00:27:06,960
and imagining this man lived
a full and complete life,
432
00:27:07,002 --> 00:27:08,962
and died
with his own grandchildren
433
00:27:09,004 --> 00:27:11,965
and great-grandchildren
surrounding him thinking
he was a wonderful man.
434
00:27:12,007 --> 00:27:15,635
That's the legacy
of the Holocaust in Germany,
435
00:27:15,677 --> 00:27:18,346
not the few war crime trials.
436
00:27:21,016 --> 00:27:24,019
- I think
that what's happening now is
437
00:27:24,060 --> 00:27:26,813
that the judges
or the prosecutors
438
00:27:26,855 --> 00:27:28,982
want to make good for
439
00:27:29,024 --> 00:27:32,027
the mistakes
that were made in the past,
440
00:27:32,068 --> 00:27:34,571
like in the 1960's and 1970's.
441
00:27:34,612 --> 00:27:37,157
And I think coming to terms
442
00:27:37,198 --> 00:27:40,035
with the past can be done
in a different way.
443
00:27:41,202 --> 00:27:43,371
- It's difficult to say
what good can be done
444
00:27:43,413 --> 00:27:48,209
by punishing someone for a crime
they committed 70 years ago.
445
00:27:48,251 --> 00:27:50,337
The further question
that I think has to be raised,
446
00:27:50,378 --> 00:27:53,965
because of the time period,
is, if you punish a man
447
00:27:54,007 --> 00:27:56,634
of 93 for something that he did
448
00:27:56,676 --> 00:27:58,511
when he was 23,
449
00:27:58,553 --> 00:28:02,182
are you still punishing
the person who did the crim?
450
00:28:02,223 --> 00:28:04,392
Everything about him
451
00:28:04,434 --> 00:28:07,896
in terms of what makes one
a criminal has changed.
452
00:28:07,937 --> 00:28:10,607
He had grown up in a family
453
00:28:10,648 --> 00:28:13,026
that was very nationalist,
454
00:28:13,068 --> 00:28:15,862
he absorbed the ideology
of the Nazis
455
00:28:15,904 --> 00:28:18,073
as a teenager, a young man,
456
00:28:18,114 --> 00:28:21,034
and joined the Hitler Youth,
then volunteered
457
00:28:21,076 --> 00:28:23,411
for the SS. So we're in a way
458
00:28:23,453 --> 00:28:27,040
punishing someone
for what a different person,
459
00:28:27,082 --> 00:28:29,042
a different personality,
460
00:28:29,084 --> 00:28:32,045
somebody with different
characteristics did.
461
00:28:32,087 --> 00:28:34,214
- It is too little too late.
462
00:28:34,255 --> 00:28:36,383
This needed to be done
a long time ago.
463
00:28:36,424 --> 00:28:39,260
But how ridiculous is it
that they're doing it now
464
00:28:39,302 --> 00:28:41,721
when these people
are all in their 90's?
465
00:28:41,763 --> 00:28:44,432
(phone ringing)
466
00:28:46,434 --> 00:28:47,936
- Good afternoon.
467
00:28:47,977 --> 00:28:50,230
I'm in my 98th year.
468
00:28:50,271 --> 00:28:53,566
If I committed an illegal act,
I could expect to go to jail.
469
00:28:53,608 --> 00:28:56,403
If I committed an illegal act
where there was no statute
470
00:28:56,444 --> 00:28:59,447
of limitations, as is the case
with crimes against humanity,
471
00:28:59,489 --> 00:29:01,449
you go to jail.
472
00:29:01,491 --> 00:29:03,076
Age is no defense.
473
00:29:03,118 --> 00:29:05,120
And they have to know
that the criminal
474
00:29:05,161 --> 00:29:07,330
will be pursued
as long as necessary
475
00:29:07,372 --> 00:29:11,126
to try to bring whatever
justice is possible
under the circumstances.
476
00:29:11,167 --> 00:29:14,921
- How did it happen
that here he was
477
00:29:14,963 --> 00:29:17,257
in his own hometown
for 70 years,
478
00:29:17,298 --> 00:29:21,302
and nobody did
anything about it?
479
00:29:21,344 --> 00:29:24,597
- All this is happening
because it's doable now.
480
00:29:24,639 --> 00:29:28,268
40 years ago, 50 years ago,
it was very far from doable.
481
00:29:28,309 --> 00:29:31,938
- For many, many years,
the German judicial system
482
00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:34,441
used the wrong legal frame
483
00:29:34,482 --> 00:29:38,528
to try to digest
the crimes of the Holocaust.
484
00:29:38,570 --> 00:29:42,198
- They had to prove
that the suspect
485
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,119
had committed a specific crime
against a specific victim
486
00:29:46,161 --> 00:29:50,331
and had done so
motivated by racial hatred.
487
00:29:50,373 --> 00:29:53,293
And as you can imagine,
it's not easy to prove.
488
00:29:53,335 --> 00:29:56,212
- If you couldn't prove
that someone had engaged
489
00:29:56,254 --> 00:29:58,965
let's say in some kind
of hands-on act of killing,
490
00:29:59,007 --> 00:30:01,343
then you simply
couldn't convict.
491
00:30:01,384 --> 00:30:05,138
Which is one of the reasons
why many, many, many guards
492
00:30:05,180 --> 00:30:08,141
who we might wish
had been convicted
493
00:30:08,183 --> 00:30:10,310
couldn't have been,
because in a sense,
494
00:30:10,352 --> 00:30:13,813
the Germans failed to create
an adequate legal idiom,
495
00:30:13,855 --> 00:30:16,399
an adequate theory
that would permit
496
00:30:16,441 --> 00:30:18,193
these guards to be convicted.
497
00:30:18,234 --> 00:30:20,779
That changed pretty dramatically
498
00:30:20,820 --> 00:30:22,822
with Demjanjuk.
499
00:30:22,864 --> 00:30:24,532
- Because of the Demjanjuk case,
500
00:30:24,574 --> 00:30:27,494
all of a sudden, the prosecution
in Germany changed
501
00:30:27,535 --> 00:30:30,163
the rules of the game.
- Without the Demjanjuk case,
502
00:30:30,205 --> 00:30:32,082
there wouldn't have been
a Gröning case.
503
00:30:32,123 --> 00:30:35,251
- John Demjanjuk,
originally Ivan Demjanjuk,
504
00:30:35,293 --> 00:30:38,046
immigrated to the United States
around 1950
505
00:30:38,088 --> 00:30:40,173
claiming to be a refugee.
506
00:30:40,215 --> 00:30:44,010
(camera clicking)
-
Interestingly,
507
00:30:44,052 --> 00:30:46,846
on his US visa application,
508
00:30:46,888 --> 00:30:48,473
he listed
509
00:30:48,515 --> 00:30:51,726
as his residence
from some time in the 1930's
510
00:30:51,768 --> 00:30:53,895
to 1943
511
00:30:53,937 --> 00:30:58,024
"Sobibor, comma, Poland."
512
00:30:58,066 --> 00:31:00,193
Sobibor is a word that should
513
00:31:00,235 --> 00:31:02,195
send a chill up the spine
514
00:31:02,237 --> 00:31:04,322
of every person in this planet.
515
00:31:04,364 --> 00:31:08,368
One normally thinks
of there having been
516
00:31:08,410 --> 00:31:11,037
six Nazi death camps,
517
00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:12,580
extermination camps.
518
00:31:12,622 --> 00:31:17,043
That is places that existed
solely to murder people.
519
00:31:17,085 --> 00:31:19,629
Those would be Majdanek,
520
00:31:19,671 --> 00:31:22,048
Sobibor, Chelmno,
521
00:31:22,090 --> 00:31:24,217
Belzec, Treblinka,
522
00:31:24,259 --> 00:31:27,387
and Auschwitz-Birkenau.
523
00:31:27,429 --> 00:31:30,432
Unfortunately, the people
processing visa applications
524
00:31:30,473 --> 00:31:34,227
for the United States in 1950
had not heard
525
00:31:34,269 --> 00:31:37,230
of Sobibor, and so the word
meant nothing to them.
526
00:31:37,272 --> 00:31:40,275
And Demjanjuk received his visa.
527
00:31:41,276 --> 00:31:43,445
He worked in Ford
as a machinist.
528
00:31:43,486 --> 00:31:46,406
He put together, kind of,
a perfectly respectable
529
00:31:46,448 --> 00:31:49,576
mid-western life,
until around the mid 70's.
530
00:31:49,617 --> 00:31:52,245
(clamouring)
531
00:31:52,287 --> 00:31:54,205
American prosecutors
became aware
532
00:31:54,247 --> 00:31:56,583
that he had lied
on immigration forms.
533
00:31:56,624 --> 00:32:00,587
And this started
an investigation
which really turned into
534
00:32:00,628 --> 00:32:04,299
probably the most convoluted
and lengthiest criminal case
535
00:32:04,341 --> 00:32:06,760
to arise out of the Holocaust.
536
00:32:06,801 --> 00:32:08,928
When the Americans started
537
00:32:08,970 --> 00:32:11,598
investigating Demjanjuk,
they had discovered
538
00:32:11,639 --> 00:32:15,393
an ID of Demjanjuk's
that the SS had issued,
539
00:32:15,435 --> 00:32:18,271
which indicated
that he had been assigned
540
00:32:18,313 --> 00:32:21,274
to work
at the Sobibor death camp.
541
00:32:21,316 --> 00:32:25,153
But when the Americans
started interviewing
542
00:32:25,195 --> 00:32:27,447
various death camp survivors,
543
00:32:27,489 --> 00:32:30,784
they found that a number
of survivors identified
544
00:32:30,825 --> 00:32:33,953
Demjanjuk not as a guard
at Sobibor,
545
00:32:33,995 --> 00:32:36,373
but as a guard at Treblinka.
546
00:32:39,501 --> 00:32:41,628
- John Demjanjuk goes
on trial in Jerusalem,
547
00:32:41,670 --> 00:32:44,964
accused of being the Nazi
concentration camp guard
548
00:32:45,006 --> 00:32:46,466
known as Ivan the Terrible.
549
00:32:46,508 --> 00:32:50,345
- It's described simply
as "Criminal Case 373,
550
00:32:50,387 --> 00:32:53,306
The State of Israel
versus Ivan Demjanjuk."
551
00:32:53,348 --> 00:32:56,643
(honking)
Israel's last war-crimes trial
552
00:32:56,685 --> 00:32:59,312
convicted Adolf Eichmann,
the administrator
553
00:32:59,354 --> 00:33:01,690
of Nazi Germany's
Final Solution.
554
00:33:01,731 --> 00:33:03,483
25 years later,
555
00:33:03,525 --> 00:33:06,528
another man leaves the same cell
in Ayalon prison,
556
00:33:06,569 --> 00:33:10,490
to make the 80km trip
to a Jerusalem courtroom,
557
00:33:10,532 --> 00:33:15,412
perhaps to meet the same fate
on the gallows.
558
00:33:18,206 --> 00:33:20,166
John Demjanjuk is on trial
559
00:33:20,208 --> 00:33:22,836
for his life.
- How are you today?
560
00:33:22,877 --> 00:33:27,048
- Good, thank you!
I'm good all the time.
561
00:33:32,262 --> 00:33:34,347
- "They would have shoved me
562
00:33:34,389 --> 00:33:37,225
"straight alive
into a pit full of blood.
563
00:33:37,267 --> 00:33:40,061
"You weren't there. I was there!
564
00:33:40,103 --> 00:33:42,188
"Ask him! Ask him!
Let him tell you!
565
00:33:42,230 --> 00:33:44,774
Let him tell you
what he would have done to me."
566
00:33:47,444 --> 00:33:49,571
- Stand up, John.
567
00:33:55,827 --> 00:33:57,704
- I wasn't there.
568
00:33:57,746 --> 00:33:59,622
- "Mr. Rosenberg...
569
00:34:01,416 --> 00:34:04,336
"Please... sit down. The public
570
00:34:04,377 --> 00:34:06,546
is requested
to keep to its seat."
571
00:34:06,588 --> 00:34:09,215
- John Demjanjuk continued
to try to convince the court
572
00:34:09,257 --> 00:34:13,219
he is not "Ivan the Terrible,"
the SS officer who helped kill
573
00:34:13,261 --> 00:34:16,723
850,000 Polish Jews."
574
00:34:16,765 --> 00:34:18,933
- "I am innocent,
575
00:34:18,975 --> 00:34:20,977
innocent, innocent!"
576
00:34:21,019 --> 00:34:22,729
-"We sentence him
577
00:34:22,771 --> 00:34:26,232
"for the aforementioned crimes,
the punishment of death
578
00:34:26,274 --> 00:34:29,110
"as stipulated in section one
of the Nazi
579
00:34:29,152 --> 00:34:31,488
and Nazi collaborators law."
580
00:34:31,529 --> 00:34:34,407
- I'm not the Ivan the Terrible!
I'm a good man!
581
00:34:34,449 --> 00:34:36,242
- After he was sentenced
to death,
582
00:34:36,284 --> 00:34:38,745
there was a rather long
583
00:34:38,787 --> 00:34:41,706
and drawn out appellate phase
that happened to coincide
584
00:34:41,748 --> 00:34:43,917
with the unraveling
of the Soviet Union.
585
00:34:43,958 --> 00:34:46,127
- Mr. Gorbachev,
586
00:34:46,169 --> 00:34:48,755
tear down this wall!
587
00:34:48,797 --> 00:34:50,256
(crowd cheering)
588
00:34:50,298 --> 00:34:52,592
- As the old
Soviet Union fell apart,
589
00:34:52,634 --> 00:34:56,429
their archives opened up.
-
They discovered, that in fact,
590
00:34:56,471 --> 00:34:58,765
the Israelis had the wrong guy,
591
00:34:58,807 --> 00:35:00,600
that Demjanjuk had not been
592
00:35:00,642 --> 00:35:03,436
"Ivan the Terrible
of Treblinka."
593
00:35:03,478 --> 00:35:05,647
In fact,
"Ivan the Terrible" had been
594
00:35:05,689 --> 00:35:08,650
this entirely different
Ukrainian named Ivan Marchenko.
595
00:35:10,318 --> 00:35:12,278
It really showed you
596
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,781
the limits of structuring
these trials
597
00:35:14,823 --> 00:35:18,326
around the eyewitness testimony
of survivors,
598
00:35:18,368 --> 00:35:20,495
because these survivors,
they were positive
599
00:35:20,537 --> 00:35:22,622
that Demjanjuk
was their former tormentor,
600
00:35:22,664 --> 00:35:26,001
and they were wrong.
***
601
00:35:26,042 --> 00:35:28,795
- I miss my wife.
602
00:35:28,837 --> 00:35:31,131
I miss my family.
603
00:35:31,172 --> 00:35:33,174
I miss my grandchildren.
604
00:35:33,216 --> 00:35:34,801
I want to go home.
605
00:35:34,843 --> 00:35:38,638
- As a result of this case
of mistaken identity,
606
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,808
he was acquitted.
But the mistaken identity
607
00:35:41,850 --> 00:35:45,895
also indicated that he wasn't
entirely free of guilt.
608
00:35:51,401 --> 00:35:54,195
- In my country,
Demjanjuk worked
609
00:35:54,237 --> 00:35:57,323
on an assembly line
for the Ford Motor Company.
610
00:35:57,365 --> 00:35:59,659
And I suspect
if you had asked Demjanjuk
611
00:35:59,701 --> 00:36:01,995
at that time,
"What do you do for a living?"
612
00:36:02,037 --> 00:36:04,330
He would have said,
613
00:36:04,372 --> 00:36:07,500
"I build cars."
Even though, I assume,
614
00:36:07,542 --> 00:36:09,502
he did one little operation,
615
00:36:09,544 --> 00:36:12,881
tightened one bolt or something.
He did not ever build
616
00:36:12,922 --> 00:36:14,507
an entire car himself.
617
00:36:14,549 --> 00:36:18,011
But that's what he did for a
living. They were building cars.
618
00:36:18,053 --> 00:36:21,723
At places like Auschwitz,
619
00:36:21,765 --> 00:36:23,600
Sobibor,
620
00:36:23,641 --> 00:36:26,686
what the SS personnel there
did for a living
621
00:36:26,728 --> 00:36:29,147
was kill innocent
622
00:36:29,189 --> 00:36:31,524
human beings.
623
00:36:31,566 --> 00:36:33,860
There was nothing else
going on there.
624
00:36:35,445 --> 00:36:37,530
- Today, a federal court
in Cleveland
625
00:36:37,572 --> 00:36:40,992
stripped John Demjanjuk
of his U.S. citizenship,
626
00:36:41,034 --> 00:36:43,578
finding that he served the Nazis
during World War Two
627
00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:46,706
as an armed guard
at the Sobibor Death Camp
628
00:36:46,748 --> 00:36:50,043
- Our efforts were inspired
by the courage of the survivors,
629
00:36:50,085 --> 00:36:52,379
who, in recounting for us
630
00:36:52,420 --> 00:36:55,590
their nightmarish experiences
of more than half a century ago,
631
00:36:55,632 --> 00:36:58,259
were willing
to re-open psychic wounds
632
00:36:58,301 --> 00:37:00,553
that of course
have never fully healed.
633
00:37:00,595 --> 00:37:03,932
What very few people know
is that after ten years
634
00:37:03,973 --> 00:37:07,769
of litigation against Demjanjuk
in the United States,
635
00:37:07,811 --> 00:37:11,231
when we had gotten courts
to revoke his citizenship
636
00:37:11,272 --> 00:37:13,233
and order him deported,
637
00:37:13,274 --> 00:37:15,235
we went to the German government
638
00:37:15,276 --> 00:37:17,404
and asked Germany to accept him,
639
00:37:17,445 --> 00:37:19,739
and Germany said "No."
640
00:37:19,781 --> 00:37:21,741
As Germany
and other governments of Europe
641
00:37:21,783 --> 00:37:24,411
have routinely done
in our cases.
642
00:37:24,452 --> 00:37:26,413
Uh, enormously frustrating.
643
00:37:26,454 --> 00:37:29,165
I then met Thomas Walther
644
00:37:29,207 --> 00:37:31,251
and Kirsten Goetze,
645
00:37:31,292 --> 00:37:33,753
and we brainstormed
how there might be a way
646
00:37:33,795 --> 00:37:37,590
to get Demjanjuk indicted
in Germany.
647
00:37:37,632 --> 00:37:39,759
- There was
a very important connection
648
00:37:39,801 --> 00:37:43,263
to the U.S. Office
of Special Investigations
649
00:37:43,304 --> 00:37:45,765
with Eli Rosenbaum
in Washington.
650
00:37:45,807 --> 00:37:49,644
He always told me that
651
00:37:49,686 --> 00:37:53,440
he cannot understand
why we in Germany
652
00:37:53,481 --> 00:37:57,444
do not prosecute these guards
653
00:37:57,485 --> 00:37:59,446
who are watching
654
00:37:59,487 --> 00:38:01,656
that nobody can escape
655
00:38:01,698 --> 00:38:03,783
from a killing place.
-
Those camps
656
00:38:03,825 --> 00:38:08,121
existed to carry out
crimes against humanity,
657
00:38:08,163 --> 00:38:10,206
crimes of persecution.
658
00:38:10,248 --> 00:38:11,958
I gave him the example. I said,
659
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,960
"Thomas, look, we're sitting
here in my office.
660
00:38:14,002 --> 00:38:18,131
"If you decide to chase me
around my office
661
00:38:18,173 --> 00:38:20,300
"with a knife to kill me,
662
00:38:20,342 --> 00:38:22,969
"and you have a cohort
who is outside the office
663
00:38:23,011 --> 00:38:26,681
"holding the door closed,
so that I cannot escape;
664
00:38:26,723 --> 00:38:30,560
"under those circumstances,
both you and your cohort
665
00:38:30,602 --> 00:38:32,812
"will be found guilty
in my country
666
00:38:32,854 --> 00:38:35,482
of first-degree murder."
And I said,
667
00:38:35,523 --> 00:38:40,153
"I cannot imagine that the law
is any different in Germany."
668
00:38:40,195 --> 00:38:44,491
- These camps had no other
reason than to kill people.
669
00:38:44,532 --> 00:38:47,827
There is no question
that this person
670
00:38:47,869 --> 00:38:51,373
is responsible and part
of the whole killing process.
671
00:38:51,414 --> 00:38:53,833
- The guards in death camps
672
00:38:53,875 --> 00:38:56,169
like Auschwitz-Birkenau,
Sobibor,
673
00:38:56,211 --> 00:38:59,631
they knew what was going
on there, and they made sure
674
00:38:59,673 --> 00:39:01,341
that the victims did not escape.
675
00:39:01,383 --> 00:39:04,928
Ultimately, Thomas and Kirsten
did the legal research
676
00:39:04,969 --> 00:39:08,348
and ascertained
that there was case law,
677
00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:11,393
and brought the Demjanjuk case.
(soft piano music)
678
00:39:20,902 --> 00:39:24,531
- This is a very wonderful day
for justice today.
679
00:39:24,572 --> 00:39:28,535
The fact that this person,
who was an active participant
680
00:39:28,576 --> 00:39:30,620
in the mass murder
of 29,000 Jews
681
00:39:30,662 --> 00:39:33,873
at the Sobibor death camp,
is finally going
682
00:39:33,915 --> 00:39:37,711
to stand trial for his crimes
is extremely important.
683
00:39:37,752 --> 00:39:39,796
We are extremely pleased,
and I think
684
00:39:39,838 --> 00:39:41,756
that the American
and German authorities
685
00:39:41,798 --> 00:39:44,551
deserve a tremendous amount
of credit
686
00:39:44,592 --> 00:39:47,804
for their perseverance
in this case.
687
00:39:57,272 --> 00:39:59,941
(beeping)
688
00:40:10,660 --> 00:40:13,455
- Umm, target. I'm on
the wrong side of the car.
689
00:40:15,457 --> 00:40:17,959
- He's walking.
- Yeah.
690
00:40:22,422 --> 00:40:25,675
(soft piano music)
691
00:40:27,052 --> 00:40:28,887
- It looks
rather innocent,
692
00:40:28,928 --> 00:40:32,349
an elderly man walking
and talking,
693
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:34,768
but that man is John Demjanjuk,
694
00:40:34,809 --> 00:40:36,770
the alleged Nazi
death camp guard,
695
00:40:36,811 --> 00:40:39,606
who claims he's too ill
and too frail
696
00:40:39,647 --> 00:40:41,816
to be deported to Europe
to go on trial.
697
00:40:41,858 --> 00:40:44,819
Federal prosecutors
submitted these videos
698
00:40:44,861 --> 00:40:47,113
to the U.S. Circuit
Court of Appeals.
699
00:40:47,155 --> 00:40:50,867
They were taken a few days
before he was detained.
700
00:40:57,415 --> 00:40:59,668
- One of the things
the Demjanjuk trial
tried to do in Munich,
701
00:40:59,709 --> 00:41:01,961
is he tried to basically
702
00:41:02,003 --> 00:41:04,547
create the impression
of being incompetent.
703
00:41:04,589 --> 00:41:06,466
(dramatic classical music)
704
00:41:06,508 --> 00:41:10,303
(inaudible talking)
705
00:41:10,345 --> 00:41:11,805
He actually engaged
706
00:41:11,846 --> 00:41:13,973
in a rather dramatic
theatrical performance
707
00:41:14,015 --> 00:41:15,975
in which he tried
to convince everyone
708
00:41:16,017 --> 00:41:18,353
that he was kind of
on death's door.
709
00:41:18,395 --> 00:41:19,771
(cameras clicking)
- Oh!
710
00:41:19,813 --> 00:41:23,983
Oy, oy, oy, oy, oy, oy, oy!
711
00:41:24,025 --> 00:41:26,027
- First of all, the problem
is that Demjanjuk himself,
712
00:41:26,069 --> 00:41:28,863
I think, put on a great act
today, and he's gonna
713
00:41:28,905 --> 00:41:31,658
do everything possible
to try and create
714
00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:34,994
an impression that he's simply
incapable of standing trial.
715
00:41:35,036 --> 00:41:37,664
If you've seen the footage
of the Demjanjuk trial,
716
00:41:37,706 --> 00:41:39,874
he looked like a total zombie,
717
00:41:39,916 --> 00:41:41,876
like he didn't have a clue
what was going on.
718
00:41:41,918 --> 00:41:43,878
And what most people don't know
is that the minute
719
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,880
the trial sessions ended
every day, he was up and around,
720
00:41:45,922 --> 00:41:47,882
walking around,
joking around with the people.
721
00:41:47,924 --> 00:41:49,884
- It has been a common ruse
in Nazi cases
722
00:41:49,926 --> 00:41:53,847
for decades to claim
either a medical incapacity
723
00:41:53,888 --> 00:41:56,516
or a mental health incapacity
724
00:41:56,558 --> 00:41:58,935
to continue with the trial.
725
00:42:00,061 --> 00:42:02,564
Some courts have fallen
for those ruses,
726
00:42:02,605 --> 00:42:04,983
others have not.
727
00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:09,029
But it is a very,
very common ploy.
728
00:42:09,070 --> 00:42:11,197
- I always say
that if there was an Oscar given
729
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,075
for the best performance
by a Nazi war criminal,
730
00:42:14,117 --> 00:42:16,828
Demjanjuk would have
gotten it for 2010.
731
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:19,706
- Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!
732
00:42:19,748 --> 00:42:22,125
Oh! Oh!
(recorded applause)
733
00:42:23,752 --> 00:42:25,920
- We now know
that in fact he was
734
00:42:25,962 --> 00:42:27,714
rather healthy at the time,
and he did
735
00:42:27,756 --> 00:42:29,883
successfully survive his trial.
736
00:42:29,924 --> 00:42:32,218
- In a verdict
decades in the making,
737
00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:35,889
a German court has found
91-year-old John Demjanjuk
738
00:42:35,930 --> 00:42:38,016
guilty of accessory to murder
739
00:42:38,058 --> 00:42:40,393
in the case
of more than 28,000 Jews
740
00:42:40,435 --> 00:42:42,062
in Nazi-occupied Poland.
741
00:42:42,103 --> 00:42:45,523
- John Demjanjuk
is just a scapegoat
742
00:42:45,565 --> 00:42:47,233
for the Germans.
743
00:42:47,275 --> 00:42:50,070
He has to pay
for all the mistakes they made
744
00:42:50,111 --> 00:42:53,740
in the past,
and that's not justice.
745
00:42:53,782 --> 00:42:56,117
- What was very important
746
00:42:56,159 --> 00:42:57,327
about the trial in Germany
747
00:42:57,369 --> 00:43:01,414
was in a way
it was the exact opposite
748
00:43:01,456 --> 00:43:04,876
of the Ivan the Terrible trial.
Ivan the Terrible trial focused
749
00:43:04,918 --> 00:43:07,754
on the particular pathologies
750
00:43:07,796 --> 00:43:10,423
of a very brutal guard.
751
00:43:10,465 --> 00:43:12,258
The trial in Munich
752
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:15,261
was really the first trial
to come along and say,
753
00:43:15,303 --> 00:43:17,931
"We don't really care
if you were cruel or not.
754
00:43:17,972 --> 00:43:21,267
"Your job description
was basically facilitating
755
00:43:21,309 --> 00:43:24,771
"an act of extermination,
and that's why we're going
756
00:43:24,813 --> 00:43:26,981
to hold you guilty
in a court of law."
757
00:43:27,023 --> 00:43:30,819
You were an accessory to murder
because, by definition,
758
00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:33,780
that was your job description.
759
00:43:33,822 --> 00:43:35,824
- The following year,
760
00:43:35,865 --> 00:43:37,784
Demjanjuk died in Germany
761
00:43:37,826 --> 00:43:40,954
while his case was on appeal.
762
00:43:40,995 --> 00:43:43,456
But the precedent
of court agreeing
763
00:43:43,498 --> 00:43:45,917
that someone who served
as a guard
764
00:43:45,959 --> 00:43:48,128
at a death camp
shared complicity
765
00:43:48,169 --> 00:43:50,130
in the killings
that took part there
766
00:43:50,171 --> 00:43:52,966
inspired, shall we say,
German prosecutors
767
00:43:53,008 --> 00:43:55,176
to prosecute other guards.
768
00:43:55,218 --> 00:43:58,680
- Prosecutors in Germany
are reopening hundreds
769
00:43:58,722 --> 00:44:01,516
of investigations
into former Nazis.
770
00:44:01,558 --> 00:44:04,185
So why has it taken so long to
bring these people to trial?
771
00:44:04,227 --> 00:44:06,312
- This is the uniqueness
and significance
772
00:44:06,354 --> 00:44:09,315
of the Demjanjuk conviction.
Basically what the court
773
00:44:09,357 --> 00:44:12,861
in Munich said in May was,
if you served
774
00:44:12,902 --> 00:44:15,488
as an armed SS guard
at a pure death camp,
775
00:44:15,530 --> 00:44:18,658
you're automatically guilty
of accessory to murder.
776
00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:22,162
This gave the German prosecution
a new lease on life.
777
00:44:22,203 --> 00:44:24,873
Now the question then was, how
many of these people are alive?
778
00:44:24,914 --> 00:44:28,209
(siren blaring)
***
779
00:44:31,046 --> 00:44:33,923
- After the Demjanjuk verdict,
780
00:44:33,965 --> 00:44:37,344
the central office here started
781
00:44:37,385 --> 00:44:38,887
to look again
782
00:44:38,928 --> 00:44:41,389
at all the six death camps.
783
00:44:43,183 --> 00:44:46,227
We put together
all these puzzle pieces
784
00:44:46,269 --> 00:44:48,521
in order to get an image
785
00:44:48,563 --> 00:44:50,607
who was involved in a crime.
786
00:44:50,648 --> 00:44:54,361
Yeah. There it is, right here.
787
00:44:55,737 --> 00:44:59,240
- Germany is making up for it
with what it's got.
788
00:44:59,282 --> 00:45:02,202
There's slim pickings these days
for Nazi war criminals.
789
00:45:02,243 --> 00:45:06,039
Many of them are dead. And many
of the survivors are dead.
790
00:45:06,081 --> 00:45:08,333
It's not as if the German
government has its choice
791
00:45:08,375 --> 00:45:12,212
of a wide variety
of players to go after.
792
00:45:12,253 --> 00:45:15,173
Now I got a tip
from Simon Wiesenthal
793
00:45:15,215 --> 00:45:18,927
in the early 1980's.
Mr. Wiesenthal told me
794
00:45:18,968 --> 00:45:23,014
that there was a Nazi
named Haralds Puntulis,
795
00:45:23,056 --> 00:45:25,016
who was living in Canada,
796
00:45:25,058 --> 00:45:27,185
but his whereabouts
were unknown.
797
00:45:27,227 --> 00:45:30,063
And Puntulis took part
in the massacre
798
00:45:30,105 --> 00:45:33,066
of more than 5,000
Jews and Roma
799
00:45:33,108 --> 00:45:37,195
in a village in Latvia.
He wasn't hard to find.
800
00:45:37,779 --> 00:45:38,905
I found him,
801
00:45:38,947 --> 00:45:41,282
gardening in Willowdale,
802
00:45:41,324 --> 00:45:43,076
which ironically enough,
803
00:45:43,118 --> 00:45:45,370
has a great many Jewish people
who live there.
804
00:45:45,412 --> 00:45:48,248
But, just before
the authorities could act,
805
00:45:48,289 --> 00:45:52,085
and before my article
exposing him came out,
806
00:45:52,127 --> 00:45:53,545
Puntulis died.
807
00:45:53,586 --> 00:45:56,464
- There is this real rush then
to find people, anyone.
808
00:45:56,506 --> 00:46:00,468
But as you can imagine,
they're all extraordinarily old.
809
00:46:02,470 --> 00:46:06,016
There are very few of them who
are still fit to stand trial.
810
00:46:06,057 --> 00:46:09,269
So there is this feeling
that now,
811
00:46:09,310 --> 00:46:12,939
before it's too late,
we need to do everything we can
812
00:46:12,981 --> 00:46:16,234
to bring every last
Nazi to trial.
813
00:46:18,820 --> 00:46:20,613
- As the long list of people
814
00:46:20,655 --> 00:46:23,324
that they believed were Nazi
war criminals became smaller,
815
00:46:23,366 --> 00:46:26,453
an accountant from Auschwitz
was singled out.
816
00:46:26,494 --> 00:46:29,289
He was put under the spotlight
because of an interview
817
00:46:29,330 --> 00:46:31,958
that he did for the BBC,
where he openly admitted
818
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,127
and described in detail
819
00:46:34,169 --> 00:46:37,172
the crimes that were being
committed in Auschwitz.
820
00:46:38,506 --> 00:46:41,801
- You were part of the largest
killing factory in history.
821
00:46:41,843 --> 00:46:43,803
You were working there.
822
00:46:43,845 --> 00:46:45,638
You personally contributed
823
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,183
to the killing of around
1 million people.
824
00:46:48,224 --> 00:46:51,353
Don't you think you should
have stood trial?
825
00:46:53,355 --> 00:46:55,857
- No, I don't think so.
826
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,321
You imply with your question
that just being a member
827
00:47:01,363 --> 00:47:03,990
of a large group of people
who lived in a garrison
828
00:47:04,032 --> 00:47:06,159
where the destruction
of the Jews took place
829
00:47:06,201 --> 00:47:09,120
is enough to make you
a criminal.
830
00:47:14,125 --> 00:47:16,670
- He was an accomplice.
He knew what he was doing.
831
00:47:16,711 --> 00:47:19,714
But what he didn't know was that
the interview with the BBC
832
00:47:19,756 --> 00:47:22,175
would ultimately spark
the investigation,
833
00:47:22,217 --> 00:47:25,011
because at that time,
before Demjanjuk,
834
00:47:25,053 --> 00:47:27,180
guards were not seen
as being complicit.
835
00:47:27,222 --> 00:47:30,225
And for decades,
he lived peacefully
836
00:47:30,266 --> 00:47:32,686
in a small town
outside of Lüneburg.
837
00:47:32,727 --> 00:47:35,522
They got Gröning.
They went after him.
838
00:47:40,860 --> 00:47:42,612
- No.
839
00:47:43,822 --> 00:47:45,573
Carla has prepared my lunch.
840
00:47:45,615 --> 00:47:49,577
So we'll let her prepare it
when she's ready to serve it.
841
00:47:53,289 --> 00:47:56,918
Okay. You gonna eat?
- Hi Benji.
842
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,713
- Good morning!
- Hi Benji.
843
00:47:59,754 --> 00:48:01,381
There are many trials
844
00:48:01,423 --> 00:48:03,591
being carried on now,
which are remarkable.
845
00:48:03,633 --> 00:48:08,221
Old people who have managed
to evade justice for many years.
846
00:48:08,263 --> 00:48:10,390
It doesn't make
a very big difference
847
00:48:10,432 --> 00:48:14,352
whether they spend
some time in jail or not.
848
00:48:14,394 --> 00:48:17,397
On the principle,
it does make a difference.
849
00:48:17,439 --> 00:48:19,441
They should know that they're
not going to get away with it.
850
00:48:19,482 --> 00:48:23,236
We'll pursue them wherever
they are as long as necessary
851
00:48:23,278 --> 00:48:26,448
and try to have them
explain their actions.
852
00:48:29,617 --> 00:48:32,078
If you know that he was
a guard in a camp
853
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,330
which killed your father,
your mother, your grandfath,
854
00:48:34,372 --> 00:48:37,334
don't you have to have
some consideration
855
00:48:37,375 --> 00:48:40,462
for the victims,
rather than the perpetrator?
856
00:48:43,882 --> 00:48:46,593
- Our argument about the case
857
00:48:46,634 --> 00:48:50,430
was that the things that
Mr. Gröning did in Auschwitz
858
00:48:50,472 --> 00:48:54,100
actually were not
some kind of support
859
00:48:54,142 --> 00:48:56,186
of killing the people
who had been
860
00:48:56,227 --> 00:48:59,105
transported to Auschwitz
at that time.
861
00:48:59,147 --> 00:49:01,107
Of course he supported
the system,
862
00:49:01,149 --> 00:49:03,109
but not the killing itself.
863
00:49:03,151 --> 00:49:05,487
- Many SS members
here in Germany,
864
00:49:05,528 --> 00:49:08,073
in former trials,
they often said,
865
00:49:08,114 --> 00:49:09,991
"Well, I didn't kill them!
866
00:49:10,033 --> 00:49:12,202
They were killed by a...
by a machine."
867
00:49:12,243 --> 00:49:16,289
- His position as a subordinate
was quite clear.
868
00:49:16,331 --> 00:49:18,458
He was not
a high ranking officer.
869
00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:21,294
He was not in a sort
of position to give orders.
870
00:49:21,336 --> 00:49:25,548
- This is the question.
Who is responsible?
871
00:49:28,259 --> 00:49:30,470
- Gröning was a cog
in the wheel,
872
00:49:30,512 --> 00:49:34,808
but the wheel couldn't
have turned without that cog.
873
00:49:34,849 --> 00:49:36,810
- Individual killing
is not a requisite.
874
00:49:36,851 --> 00:49:40,897
There is no evidence that Hitler
personally killed anybody
875
00:49:40,939 --> 00:49:43,274
at Auschwitz, or any Jew.
876
00:49:43,316 --> 00:49:45,485
Everybody who was aware
877
00:49:45,527 --> 00:49:48,321
of what was going on
at Auschwitz
878
00:49:48,363 --> 00:49:50,323
is both morally
and legally guilty.
879
00:49:50,365 --> 00:49:53,451
The chef, less than the person
880
00:49:53,493 --> 00:49:57,330
who poured the gas
into the chambers.
881
00:49:57,372 --> 00:49:59,332
The accountant,
less than the guard.
882
00:49:59,374 --> 00:50:02,043
But he made choices throughout
883
00:50:02,085 --> 00:50:04,337
and he is responsible
for his choices.
884
00:50:04,379 --> 00:50:06,339
- Gröning was not just
an accountant.
885
00:50:06,381 --> 00:50:08,675
He's known as the
"Bookkeeper of Auschwitz"
886
00:50:08,717 --> 00:50:11,177
and the "Bookkeeper
of Auschwitz" creates,
887
00:50:11,219 --> 00:50:12,804
I think, a somewhat
misleading image.
888
00:50:12,846 --> 00:50:16,391
It suggests that he could
have been just squirrelled away
889
00:50:16,433 --> 00:50:19,853
in some little shack
adding up numbers.
890
00:50:19,894 --> 00:50:21,688
- He came to Auschwitz
891
00:50:21,730 --> 00:50:24,566
specifically as a bookkeeper.
892
00:50:25,567 --> 00:50:27,777
But it took much more
than bookkeeping.
893
00:50:29,237 --> 00:50:30,530
He also had to look
after the system.
894
00:50:30,572 --> 00:50:33,533
And he was seen
on the ramp.
895
00:50:33,575 --> 00:50:36,036
- This is the ramp where
it's kind of in the collecte
896
00:50:36,077 --> 00:50:39,664
or popular imagination from
films like
Schindler's List.
897
00:50:39,706 --> 00:50:43,209
This is when the SS
are sorting people out,
898
00:50:43,251 --> 00:50:46,546
saying these people are being
exterminated immediately,
899
00:50:46,588 --> 00:50:49,382
and this small group
is actually entering
900
00:50:49,424 --> 00:50:52,552
the prison population
of the camp.
901
00:50:52,594 --> 00:50:55,221
If you look at something
like Auschwitz:
902
00:50:55,263 --> 00:50:57,349
why weren't more of
the guards prosecuted?
903
00:50:57,390 --> 00:51:00,393
Well, Auschwitz
was a hybrid camp.
904
00:51:00,435 --> 00:51:03,271
It was part slave labour camp,
905
00:51:03,313 --> 00:51:06,149
and it was part death camp.
906
00:51:06,191 --> 00:51:08,651
If these guards
were just associated
907
00:51:08,693 --> 00:51:10,528
with the slave labour aspect,
908
00:51:10,570 --> 00:51:12,739
then you wouldn't
necessarily know
909
00:51:12,781 --> 00:51:16,493
that they actually
were involved with the killing.
910
00:51:16,534 --> 00:51:18,745
And if you didn't know they were
involved with the killing,
911
00:51:18,787 --> 00:51:22,957
you couldn't prosecute them
for anything under German la.
912
00:51:22,999 --> 00:51:24,751
In the case of Gröning,
913
00:51:24,793 --> 00:51:28,922
we know that Gröning was
at Auschwitz for a long time.
914
00:51:28,963 --> 00:51:30,590
He was there for two years.
915
00:51:30,632 --> 00:51:32,759
But if you look
at the indictment,
916
00:51:32,801 --> 00:51:36,388
the indictment focuses only
on a three month period.
917
00:51:36,429 --> 00:51:39,432
During this three month period,
918
00:51:39,474 --> 00:51:41,476
that's when the trains
were arriving
919
00:51:41,518 --> 00:51:45,980
with these hundreds of thousands
of Jews from Hungary.
920
00:51:46,022 --> 00:51:47,607
- In this case,
921
00:51:47,649 --> 00:51:52,821
the Hungarian Action
is the crime.
922
00:51:52,862 --> 00:51:55,281
From the 16th of May
923
00:51:55,323 --> 00:51:57,409
until the 11th of July,
924
00:51:57,450 --> 00:52:02,539
there has been killed
300,000 Jews.
925
00:52:02,580 --> 00:52:06,626
If we can prove
that Gröning has been
926
00:52:06,668 --> 00:52:10,505
on one day in this time
on the ramp,
927
00:52:10,547 --> 00:52:15,593
then he is guilty
of the whole crime.
928
00:52:17,012 --> 00:52:19,639
The witnesses arrived
on a certain day
929
00:52:19,681 --> 00:52:23,351
at a certain hour
during this "Hungarian Action".
930
00:52:23,393 --> 00:52:27,480
Important is that
the witnesses talk about
931
00:52:27,522 --> 00:52:29,524
what happened
with their families,
932
00:52:29,566 --> 00:52:33,153
that they speak
about their sadness,
933
00:52:33,194 --> 00:52:36,614
they speak about the loss.
934
00:52:36,656 --> 00:52:40,493
- Tomorrow, Bill,
you have to testify.
935
00:52:40,535 --> 00:52:43,663
Speak slowly,
but fluently.
936
00:52:43,705 --> 00:52:47,542
And don't think about
the faces of the judges.
937
00:52:47,584 --> 00:52:51,338
- This is a special thing
as far as I'm concerned.
938
00:52:51,379 --> 00:52:54,424
It's a very important,
emotional thing.
939
00:52:54,466 --> 00:52:57,177
- The criminal department
of justice
940
00:52:57,218 --> 00:52:59,888
has made a lot of faults,
941
00:52:59,929 --> 00:53:01,514
very heavy faults.
942
00:53:01,556 --> 00:53:04,392
And I invite
the German justice system
943
00:53:04,434 --> 00:53:08,563
to come back
in a better way.
944
00:53:11,733 --> 00:53:15,570
- The time came for us
to testify at the trial.
945
00:53:16,738 --> 00:53:20,200
I sat down in front
of the presiding judge.
946
00:53:20,241 --> 00:53:22,369
Thomas Walther sat next to me,
947
00:53:22,410 --> 00:53:26,247
and then the judge asked me
to describe what happened
948
00:53:26,289 --> 00:53:29,751
when I arrived
to Auschwitz-Birkenau.
949
00:53:31,753 --> 00:53:33,213
Then train stopped.
950
00:53:33,254 --> 00:53:36,633
After a while, all of a sudden,
the doors were opened.
951
00:53:36,675 --> 00:53:38,843
"Everybody out!
Get out of the boxcar!
952
00:53:38,885 --> 00:53:41,638
Leave your parcels in there!
You'll get them later."
953
00:53:42,430 --> 00:53:43,556
- It was a space
954
00:53:43,598 --> 00:53:47,102
filled with people
running around,
955
00:53:47,143 --> 00:53:49,562
some in striped pajamas
956
00:53:49,604 --> 00:53:52,816
and a lot of soldiers
with rifles.
957
00:53:52,857 --> 00:53:56,194
Dogs on leash that were
straining against the leash
958
00:53:56,236 --> 00:53:57,737
and barking at us.
959
00:53:57,779 --> 00:54:01,241
The people pouring out
from the wagons,
960
00:54:01,282 --> 00:54:03,243
thousands of people,
961
00:54:03,284 --> 00:54:07,080
babies crying,
mothers holding them.
962
00:54:07,122 --> 00:54:12,252
- They started screaming,
"Men and boys into one column.
963
00:54:12,293 --> 00:54:14,587
"Five in a row, fast! Fast!"
964
00:54:14,629 --> 00:54:16,923
I grabbed a hold
of my dad's hand
965
00:54:16,965 --> 00:54:21,761
and stood there, and my mom,
my sister and aunts,
966
00:54:21,803 --> 00:54:25,432
my grandma were in the
other column with the women.
967
00:54:25,473 --> 00:54:28,601
They were screaming and yelling.
968
00:54:28,643 --> 00:54:30,979
People were so traumatized,
so scared.
969
00:54:32,814 --> 00:54:36,067
- So there is that Nazi yelling
in German, "Twins! Twins!"
970
00:54:36,109 --> 00:54:39,612
My poor mother hesitated
and said, "Is that good?"
971
00:54:39,654 --> 00:54:42,574
And the Nazi nodded "yes."
972
00:54:42,615 --> 00:54:45,493
So my mother said, "Yes."
973
00:54:45,535 --> 00:54:47,954
At that moment
another Nazi came,
974
00:54:47,996 --> 00:54:51,666
pulled my mother to the right,
we were pulled to the left.
975
00:54:51,708 --> 00:54:54,336
We were crying,
she was crying.
976
00:54:54,377 --> 00:54:57,005
I didn't really understand
977
00:54:57,047 --> 00:55:01,468
that this would be the last time
that we would see her.
978
00:55:01,509 --> 00:55:05,722
- My mother, with my siblings,
my grandparents and my aunt,
979
00:55:05,764 --> 00:55:09,059
they were told to go
to the left.
980
00:55:09,100 --> 00:55:12,687
I know they were taken into the
gas chamber of Krematoria II.
981
00:55:12,729 --> 00:55:16,816
My father, uncle and I, we were
selected for slave labour.
982
00:55:16,858 --> 00:55:19,486
We were processed.
Our clothes were taken away,
983
00:55:19,527 --> 00:55:21,821
our hair was shaved.
And the next morning,
984
00:55:21,863 --> 00:55:24,991
we were given a tattooed number
and striped outfits.
985
00:55:25,033 --> 00:55:29,871
And I became a slave labour
working for a German Reich.
986
00:55:31,539 --> 00:55:35,502
- Mengele used
1,500 sets of twins
987
00:55:35,543 --> 00:55:38,338
in his various experiments.
988
00:55:38,380 --> 00:55:40,507
Take a set of twins,
989
00:55:40,548 --> 00:55:42,717
inject one with a disease.
990
00:55:42,759 --> 00:55:44,844
When that one dies,
you kill the other one,
991
00:55:44,886 --> 00:55:48,348
and then you get the results
of how the disease works.
992
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:51,851
After one of those injections,
I became very ill
993
00:55:51,893 --> 00:55:54,020
with a very high fever.
994
00:55:54,062 --> 00:55:55,855
Next morning,
995
00:55:55,897 --> 00:55:58,692
Mengele came in
with four other doctors.
996
00:55:58,733 --> 00:56:02,612
He looked at my fever chart
and then he declared,
997
00:56:02,654 --> 00:56:06,116
laughing sarcastically
he said, "Too bad.
998
00:56:06,157 --> 00:56:09,703
She's so young,
she has only 2 weeks to live."
999
00:56:09,744 --> 00:56:13,039
But after two weeks,
my fever broke.
1000
00:56:13,081 --> 00:56:14,708
I survived,
1001
00:56:14,749 --> 00:56:18,586
and I was released
and reunited with my twin sister
1002
00:56:18,628 --> 00:56:21,089
and the other twins.
1003
00:56:27,012 --> 00:56:29,723
- While I was looking around,
1004
00:56:29,764 --> 00:56:32,559
trying to make sense
of what I'm looking at,
1005
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,729
I realized all of a sudden
that I was alone
1006
00:56:35,770 --> 00:56:38,857
and my mother was
several rows ahead of me,
1007
00:56:38,898 --> 00:56:41,901
and I started rushing
through the crowds
1008
00:56:41,943 --> 00:56:43,695
to catch up to her.
1009
00:56:43,737 --> 00:56:46,573
And all of a sudden
I was stopped.
1010
00:56:46,614 --> 00:56:48,742
A rifle in front of me,
1011
00:56:48,783 --> 00:56:53,496
and a young German soldier
telling me,
1012
00:56:53,538 --> 00:56:56,666
"Nein! Over there!
To the right!"
1013
00:56:56,708 --> 00:56:58,960
I said, "No, no,
my mother is there,
1014
00:56:59,002 --> 00:57:00,754
I want to go with her!"
1015
00:57:00,795 --> 00:57:02,756
And he just kept
the rifle there
1016
00:57:02,797 --> 00:57:06,593
and said, "No! You go there!"
1017
00:57:06,634 --> 00:57:10,472
And then I cried out
after my mom,
1018
00:57:10,513 --> 00:57:12,766
and she turned.
1019
00:57:12,807 --> 00:57:16,311
And I don't know
what I expected,
1020
00:57:16,353 --> 00:57:18,938
but she just looked at me
1021
00:57:18,980 --> 00:57:21,066
and didn't say a word.
1022
00:57:21,107 --> 00:57:24,611
And then turned around
and kept on going.
1023
00:57:24,652 --> 00:57:27,739
And I never saw her again.
1024
00:57:28,990 --> 00:57:32,952
That was, I think,
the hardest thing
1025
00:57:32,994 --> 00:57:35,997
that ever happened to me.
1026
00:57:42,962 --> 00:57:47,300
Even now I have trouble
talking about it.
1027
00:57:47,342 --> 00:57:51,971
And for over half a century,
I couldn't.
1028
00:57:54,766 --> 00:57:58,228
- What happened to my mom
and my sister,
1029
00:57:58,269 --> 00:58:00,647
I don't know.
1030
00:58:00,689 --> 00:58:04,150
But I've never seen them again,
never said goodbye to them.
1031
00:58:04,192 --> 00:58:08,530
They just disappeared
from my life at that moment.
1032
00:58:26,506 --> 00:58:28,842
Oh, here.
1033
00:58:28,883 --> 00:58:31,803
Here is my father.
"Glied, Alexander,
1034
00:58:31,845 --> 00:58:35,515
"1899, Petrovac, Yugoslavia.
1035
00:58:35,557 --> 00:58:38,226
Murdered in Kaufering, Germany."
1036
00:58:39,894 --> 00:58:43,898
Here is my sister.
"Glied, Aniko, 1936,
1037
00:58:44,733 --> 00:58:45,859
"Subotica, Yugoslavia.
1038
00:58:45,900 --> 00:58:49,195
Murdered in Auschwitz, Poland."
1039
00:58:53,950 --> 00:58:57,746
Here is my mom.
"Glied, Miriam, 1907,
1040
00:58:57,787 --> 00:58:59,873
"Jaszkarajeno, Hungary.
1041
00:58:59,914 --> 00:59:02,584
Murdered in Auschwitz, Poland."
1042
00:59:02,625 --> 00:59:04,836
Oh my God.
1043
00:59:04,878 --> 00:59:09,924
All of these Glieds
are relatives...
1044
00:59:11,468 --> 00:59:14,095
uncles and aunts of mine.
1045
00:59:30,570 --> 00:59:34,032
(indistinct chatter)
1046
00:59:59,974 --> 01:00:02,143
He spoke about
this whole situation as
1047
01:00:02,185 --> 01:00:06,106
"there was this bug
on the ground,
1048
01:00:06,147 --> 01:00:08,108
and I stepped on it."
1049
01:00:08,149 --> 01:00:10,819
- To see the faces
of the survivors
1050
01:00:10,860 --> 01:00:13,613
after Gröning spoke...
1051
01:00:13,655 --> 01:00:15,949
it was a terrible situation
1052
01:00:15,990 --> 01:00:19,911
when he explained some stories
out of his work.
1053
01:00:19,953 --> 01:00:22,872
Like the crying suitcase...
1054
01:00:53,069 --> 01:00:55,947
- And he said,
"The crying stopped."
1055
01:00:55,989 --> 01:00:59,075
And that was...
I think that was,
1056
01:00:59,117 --> 01:01:01,870
it almost killed me.
I just couldn't believe it.
1057
01:01:01,911 --> 01:01:04,414
- He said, "That wasn't nice."
1058
01:01:06,166 --> 01:01:09,627
And later on they asked him,
"What would you have done?"
1059
01:01:09,669 --> 01:01:12,422
"Well, maybe shoot him."
1060
01:01:14,049 --> 01:01:17,093
"That would have been
the nice thing for him."
1061
01:01:17,135 --> 01:01:19,596
- I accept the fact
that they were brainwashed,
1062
01:01:19,637 --> 01:01:21,306
but there comes a point
1063
01:01:21,348 --> 01:01:23,767
where no matter how much
you are brainwashed,
1064
01:01:23,808 --> 01:01:25,852
when you see a baby
being picked up
1065
01:01:25,894 --> 01:01:27,687
and smashed against a door,
and you say,
1066
01:01:27,729 --> 01:01:30,857
"This is fine. This is ok.
This is acceptable..."
1067
01:01:30,899 --> 01:01:32,525
I can't accept that.
1068
01:01:32,567 --> 01:01:37,197
- I mean, he was giving
this information... willingly.
1069
01:01:37,238 --> 01:01:39,199
I mean, he was asked,
1070
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:43,119
"Did a Jew have a chance
to leave this place alive?"
1071
01:01:44,954 --> 01:01:47,040
He says, "Absolutely not."
1072
01:01:47,082 --> 01:01:51,086
And that affected me
a lot, so...
1073
01:01:52,796 --> 01:01:54,756
- He was an adult.
1074
01:01:54,798 --> 01:01:56,925
He was responsible
for his actions.
1075
01:01:56,966 --> 01:01:59,511
Not everybody who joined
the Hitler Youth
1076
01:01:59,552 --> 01:02:02,889
ended up joining the SS.
Not everybody who joined the SS
1077
01:02:02,931 --> 01:02:04,974
ended up being a guard
at Auschwitz,
1078
01:02:05,016 --> 01:02:06,768
leading people
to their death.
1079
01:02:06,810 --> 01:02:10,230
- As far as following orders,
what one often hears is,
1080
01:02:10,271 --> 01:02:13,024
"I had to take part
in these crimes,
1081
01:02:13,066 --> 01:02:15,068
"because had I not done so,
1082
01:02:15,110 --> 01:02:17,654
"the Germans
would have executed me
1083
01:02:17,696 --> 01:02:19,239
or sent me to a death camp."
1084
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:22,075
- One of the most
remarkable statistics
1085
01:02:22,117 --> 01:02:25,078
to emerge out of the Holocaust
1086
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:28,081
is the number of SS officers,
1087
01:02:28,123 --> 01:02:30,834
or even senior German officers,
1088
01:02:30,875 --> 01:02:35,088
who suffered serious
life-threatening consequences
1089
01:02:35,130 --> 01:02:38,091
as a result of opting out.
1090
01:02:38,133 --> 01:02:41,094
That number is exactly zero.
1091
01:02:41,136 --> 01:02:43,972
- Not one instance
has ever been found
1092
01:02:44,014 --> 01:02:46,307
in which it was confirmed
1093
01:02:46,349 --> 01:02:48,935
that someone who disobeyed
criminal orders
1094
01:02:48,977 --> 01:02:50,937
was subject to
severe punishment,
1095
01:02:50,979 --> 01:02:53,148
much less execution.
1096
01:02:53,189 --> 01:02:56,109
- He was following orders,
but he had to know
1097
01:02:56,151 --> 01:03:00,405
at some level of consciousness
that it can't be legal
1098
01:03:00,447 --> 01:03:03,950
to murder infants,
babies, the elderly,
1099
01:03:03,992 --> 01:03:06,244
to murder people
who are his age now.
1100
01:03:06,286 --> 01:03:08,788
He had to know that
that was not only wrong,
1101
01:03:08,830 --> 01:03:11,374
but in some
ultimate sense, illegal.
1102
01:03:14,127 --> 01:03:16,463
- You know,
listening to Gröning,
1103
01:03:16,504 --> 01:03:18,298
I got very upset,
1104
01:03:18,340 --> 01:03:22,969
because the things that he
brought forward voluntarily...
1105
01:03:23,011 --> 01:03:25,055
I mean, he was a big talker.
1106
01:03:25,096 --> 01:03:28,516
- All I would want him
to say is, "I'm sorry."
1107
01:03:30,185 --> 01:03:32,312
That alone I think
would have been,
1108
01:03:32,354 --> 01:03:35,648
at the age of 94,
it would have meant everything,
1109
01:03:35,690 --> 01:03:37,859
as far as I was concerned.
1110
01:03:37,901 --> 01:03:39,986
Just those two words.
1111
01:03:40,028 --> 01:03:42,197
- Somebody will have
to make the judgment,
1112
01:03:42,238 --> 01:03:46,826
and I think they are going
to consider our testimonies
1113
01:03:46,868 --> 01:03:49,371
and we'll see what happens.
1114
01:03:53,708 --> 01:03:56,503
(indistinct chatter)
1115
01:03:56,544 --> 01:04:00,507
- I did not know how the
interaction with him would be.
1116
01:04:02,258 --> 01:04:07,013
I did not know how he would be
able to answer my questions,
1117
01:04:07,055 --> 01:04:10,558
but nevertheless I testified,
1118
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:14,354
and I said right there in a
German court, clear and loud,
1119
01:04:14,396 --> 01:04:18,024
that I forgave him,
as I forgave all the Nazis,
1120
01:04:18,066 --> 01:04:20,568
and I forgave everybody
who hurt me.
1121
01:04:29,411 --> 01:04:31,579
- It's outrageous what she did,
it's absolutely outrageous.
1122
01:04:31,621 --> 01:04:33,373
- I felt like the floor
opened up
1123
01:04:33,415 --> 01:04:35,542
and I fell right down
into a basement.
1124
01:04:35,583 --> 01:04:37,335
- She kept on repeating the fact
1125
01:04:37,377 --> 01:04:39,546
that these people
are friends of hers.
1126
01:04:39,587 --> 01:04:43,133
And I said, "My God. This woman
must be crazy or what!?"
1127
01:04:43,174 --> 01:04:47,095
- Forgiving those
who tortured her
1128
01:04:47,137 --> 01:04:50,724
and killed so many,
so cruelly...
1129
01:04:50,765 --> 01:04:54,769
She's able to forgive.
Maybe she needs that forgiveness
1130
01:04:54,811 --> 01:04:57,063
in order to go on, to be...
1131
01:04:57,105 --> 01:04:59,399
to stay mentally normal.
1132
01:04:59,441 --> 01:05:01,735
- And even more shocking
was that people in the audience,
1133
01:05:01,776 --> 01:05:04,779
wherever they were,
they were clapping
1134
01:05:04,821 --> 01:05:07,240
this forgiveness thing,
1135
01:05:07,282 --> 01:05:11,411
and the judge said,
"Not in my court."
1136
01:05:11,453 --> 01:05:14,581
- Eva Mozes, you know her story.
You know she was a twin,
1137
01:05:14,622 --> 01:05:16,583
and she is...
1138
01:05:16,624 --> 01:05:19,419
in every sense of the word,
she is a victim,
1139
01:05:19,461 --> 01:05:21,254
as all the other victims,
1140
01:05:21,296 --> 01:05:22,672
and she should be
treated like this.
1141
01:05:24,299 --> 01:05:26,843
- Saturday, I was coming back
to the United States.
1142
01:05:26,885 --> 01:05:29,220
The court session was over.
1143
01:05:29,262 --> 01:05:32,849
And he was still
sitting at his desk.
1144
01:05:32,891 --> 01:05:36,478
So, I went up to Oskar Gröning.
1145
01:05:59,542 --> 01:06:03,713
- An embrace between two people
is touching people
1146
01:06:03,755 --> 01:06:05,465
around the world.
1147
01:06:05,507 --> 01:06:08,301
We begin tonight
with an amazing story.
1148
01:06:08,343 --> 01:06:10,845
A Terra Haute woman
is at the center
1149
01:06:10,887 --> 01:06:12,806
of international attention.
1150
01:06:12,847 --> 01:06:15,850
This after a courageous
act of kindness
1151
01:06:15,892 --> 01:06:18,520
that took social media by storm.
1152
01:06:23,024 --> 01:06:25,652
- She was the most famous
person in Lüneburg
1153
01:06:25,694 --> 01:06:28,154
because the world's press
were all around her.
1154
01:06:28,196 --> 01:06:32,200
Everybody caught onto this
forgiveness business, you se.
1155
01:06:32,242 --> 01:06:34,202
- The biggest gesture
you could imagine.
1156
01:06:34,244 --> 01:06:35,787
You hug the monster,
1157
01:06:35,829 --> 01:06:38,832
you hug part of the machine
that killed your family,
1158
01:06:38,873 --> 01:06:40,500
that almost killed you,
1159
01:06:40,542 --> 01:06:42,502
so it was a gesture
of forgiving,
1160
01:06:42,544 --> 01:06:45,338
but there was big media
headlines and big outcry
1161
01:06:45,380 --> 01:06:47,340
if she should do that,
if that is too much,
1162
01:06:47,382 --> 01:06:50,218
if one can forgive
part of the Nazi machine
1163
01:06:50,260 --> 01:06:53,054
or if it just
should not be forgiven.
1164
01:06:53,096 --> 01:06:57,225
- She has succeeded
in infuriating
1165
01:06:57,267 --> 01:07:00,061
practically every other
survivor around,
1166
01:07:00,103 --> 01:07:02,564
and for good reason.
1167
01:07:03,106 --> 01:07:05,233
- By forgiving,
1168
01:07:05,275 --> 01:07:09,404
I removed whatever
happened to me...
1169
01:07:11,114 --> 01:07:13,074
- She asked me many times
in the past,
1170
01:07:13,116 --> 01:07:15,410
"You have to forgive
your grandfather."
1171
01:07:15,452 --> 01:07:18,204
And I said no,
I can't forgive him.
1172
01:07:18,246 --> 01:07:22,375
Not with all that stuff
he put on our shoulders.
1173
01:07:22,417 --> 01:07:25,003
But she has to deal with it.
1174
01:07:25,045 --> 01:07:27,088
She has to stand it.
1175
01:07:27,130 --> 01:07:29,382
So it's up to her.
1176
01:07:29,424 --> 01:07:34,262
If that's the way for Eva
to live with it, I accept it.
1177
01:07:34,304 --> 01:07:36,264
- The best way
to defeat an enemy
1178
01:07:36,306 --> 01:07:38,558
is to make him a friend.
1179
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:42,562
I believe that I defeated
Oskar Gröning
1180
01:07:42,604 --> 01:07:46,441
by making him a friend.
1181
01:07:47,275 --> 01:07:49,402
- Gröning, right after the war,
1182
01:07:49,444 --> 01:07:52,572
decided to marry
the widow of his brother.
1183
01:07:52,614 --> 01:07:54,908
He had two children,
1184
01:07:54,949 --> 01:07:57,243
and of course he lived
a peaceful life
1185
01:07:57,285 --> 01:07:59,454
and he enjoyed life.
1186
01:07:59,496 --> 01:08:01,289
- A very important thing
for Mr. Gröning
1187
01:08:01,331 --> 01:08:03,750
was in the middle of the 80s.
1188
01:08:03,792 --> 01:08:07,087
He was meeting somebody
who was collecting stamps,
1189
01:08:07,128 --> 01:08:08,922
like he himself did.
1190
01:08:08,963 --> 01:08:11,299
They were talking
about the Nazi crimes
1191
01:08:11,341 --> 01:08:14,552
and the other person
denied the Holocaust.
1192
01:08:14,594 --> 01:08:17,681
- He found it insufferable
that this guy
1193
01:08:17,722 --> 01:08:19,474
was going around saying
the Holocaust didn't happen.
1194
01:08:19,516 --> 01:08:21,601
He was in Auschwitz. He could
tell you that it happened.
1195
01:08:21,643 --> 01:08:24,813
- He wanted to actually
come along and tell people,
1196
01:08:24,854 --> 01:08:28,858
"Look I was there, I know that
these crimes were committed."
1197
01:08:28,900 --> 01:08:32,821
- He made some interviews to
the German news magazine Spiegel
1198
01:08:32,862 --> 01:08:34,614
and to the BBC.
1199
01:08:34,656 --> 01:08:37,659
Before these interviews,
nobody knew Mr. Gröning.
1200
01:09:00,056 --> 01:09:01,641
- He exposed himself.
1201
01:09:01,683 --> 01:09:04,477
And that was a positive
thing to do,
1202
01:09:04,519 --> 01:09:06,563
clearly, a courageous
thing to do.
1203
01:09:06,604 --> 01:09:10,483
I think that's a very important
extenuating circumstance.
1204
01:09:10,525 --> 01:09:11,985
And to me,
1205
01:09:12,027 --> 01:09:14,696
that would have been sufficient
reason to not prosecute him.
1206
01:09:39,054 --> 01:09:41,389
(indistinct chatter)
1207
01:09:41,431 --> 01:09:44,476
- Mr. Gröning made
a long statement
1208
01:09:44,517 --> 01:09:46,478
about the things
he did in Auschwitz,
1209
01:09:46,519 --> 01:09:49,356
and he confessed
that in a moral way,
1210
01:09:49,397 --> 01:09:52,692
he is guilty in the holocaust.
In the end,
1211
01:09:52,734 --> 01:09:55,236
the decision whether
he is guilty or not
1212
01:09:55,278 --> 01:09:57,530
has to be taken by the court,
1213
01:09:57,572 --> 01:10:00,742
and that cannot be made
by Mr. Gröning.
1214
01:10:14,297 --> 01:10:17,050
- Oh, I think the testimony
of Oskar Gröning
1215
01:10:17,092 --> 01:10:19,386
is very, very important.
1216
01:10:19,427 --> 01:10:22,639
He is a hands-on
participant observer
1217
01:10:22,681 --> 01:10:26,226
who puts the lie to all
the Holocaust deniers who say,
1218
01:10:26,267 --> 01:10:27,894
"There were no gas chambers,
1219
01:10:27,936 --> 01:10:30,689
there were no crematoria,
there was no Zyklon."
1220
01:10:30,730 --> 01:10:33,525
He puts the lie to all of that.
He was there.
1221
01:10:33,566 --> 01:10:35,276
He saw it with his own eyes.
1222
01:10:35,318 --> 01:10:39,823
And yet the Holocaust deniers
can't accept the reality
1223
01:10:39,864 --> 01:10:42,742
of what he's saying,
and he deserves some credit
1224
01:10:42,784 --> 01:10:47,747
for having testified
to the truth of what he saw.
1225
01:10:47,789 --> 01:10:49,791
- The truth of the matter is,
you know, in 1945,
1226
01:10:49,833 --> 01:10:52,585
at the end of the war
and the discovery of the camps
1227
01:10:52,627 --> 01:10:56,339
and the horror
of the Nazis' crimes,
1228
01:10:56,381 --> 01:10:58,758
the phrase "NEVER AGAIN"
was coined.
1229
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:01,803
The only problem is
there's nothing behind it.
1230
01:11:01,845 --> 01:11:04,764
In other words, there have been
so many tragedies,
1231
01:11:04,806 --> 01:11:07,767
similar, but not equal
to the Holocaust over the years
1232
01:11:07,809 --> 01:11:11,604
that this "NEVER AGAIN"
basically is absolutely
meaningless.
1233
01:11:11,646 --> 01:11:14,315
- It's too dangerous today.
The world is different,
1234
01:11:14,357 --> 01:11:16,443
it's changing.
Our capacity to kill
1235
01:11:16,484 --> 01:11:19,654
is getting completely
out of hand.
1236
01:11:19,696 --> 01:11:23,450
We see the wars that are
taking place now in Syria.
1237
01:11:23,491 --> 01:11:26,286
We talk about ISIS.
It's nothing new.
1238
01:11:26,327 --> 01:11:29,622
- Part of the reason
you had cases like Rwanda,
1239
01:11:29,664 --> 01:11:32,917
and Cambodia, and Biafra,
and Darfur, and Bosnia,
1240
01:11:32,959 --> 01:11:35,754
and all these things,
is that it's not at all clear
1241
01:11:35,795 --> 01:11:37,964
that if you participate
in such crimes,
1242
01:11:38,006 --> 01:11:41,843
you'll actually pay for them.
Again and again and again,
1243
01:11:41,885 --> 01:11:43,845
people got away with it.
1244
01:11:43,887 --> 01:11:45,805
And that's terrible.
That's absolutely terrible.
1245
01:11:45,847 --> 01:11:48,475
- Without history,
there is no memory.
1246
01:11:48,516 --> 01:11:51,311
Without memory,
there is no future.
1247
01:11:51,353 --> 01:11:54,731
If we don't learn from the past,
we repeat the same mistakes
again.
1248
01:12:00,528 --> 01:12:03,990
(indistinct yelling)
1249
01:12:04,032 --> 01:12:07,494
(crowd chanting)
1250
01:12:07,535 --> 01:12:11,039
- If we can send
a powerful message
1251
01:12:11,081 --> 01:12:13,833
that there is no statute
of limitations on genocide,
1252
01:12:13,875 --> 01:12:18,088
it could have an impact
on preventing individuals
1253
01:12:18,129 --> 01:12:22,842
from risking prosecution,
even at the end of their lives.
1254
01:12:42,612 --> 01:12:44,948
(speaking in German)
1255
01:12:48,576 --> 01:12:50,704
- I wanted Gröning desperately
1256
01:12:50,745 --> 01:12:53,915
to be convicted
of this terrible act,
1257
01:12:54,916 --> 01:12:56,876
but I have come
to the conclusion
1258
01:12:56,918 --> 01:13:00,088
that I don't want
to see him go to jail.
1259
01:13:01,423 --> 01:13:05,760
I feel that the important thing
is that he should be convicted,
1260
01:13:05,802 --> 01:13:08,555
and he should go back
to this town,
1261
01:13:08,596 --> 01:13:10,724
where he lived for 70 years,
1262
01:13:10,765 --> 01:13:13,393
where everybody knew
what he did,
1263
01:13:13,435 --> 01:13:15,061
and where he was.
1264
01:13:15,103 --> 01:13:17,731
And people should see him
walk on the street and say,
1265
01:13:17,772 --> 01:13:19,899
"There goes Oskar Gröning,
1266
01:13:19,941 --> 01:13:23,945
the man who got convicted in
the murder of 300,000 people."
1267
01:13:26,281 --> 01:13:27,866
- Well, he is all we have.
1268
01:13:27,907 --> 01:13:30,702
And if we want
to establish a precedent,
1269
01:13:30,744 --> 01:13:33,580
a new law that in the future
1270
01:13:33,621 --> 01:13:35,957
will not allow guilty
1271
01:13:35,999 --> 01:13:40,253
to escape on technicalities,
we do it through him.
1272
01:13:40,295 --> 01:13:42,839
(suspenseful music)
1273
01:13:48,636 --> 01:13:50,138
- An extraordinary moment
in Germany
1274
01:13:50,180 --> 01:13:52,807
when the sins of World War Two
finally caught up
1275
01:13:52,849 --> 01:13:54,934
with a man known as the
"Accountant of Auschwitz".
1276
01:13:54,976 --> 01:13:57,812
He was convicted and sentenced
to 4 years in prison,
1277
01:13:57,854 --> 01:14:00,273
in what is likely
one of the last Nazi trials
1278
01:14:00,315 --> 01:14:02,275
we will ever witness.
1279
01:14:02,317 --> 01:14:05,987
(speaking in German)
1280
01:14:13,203 --> 01:14:16,998
- It was emotional.
1281
01:14:18,833 --> 01:14:21,795
- The fact that
he only got four years,
1282
01:14:21,836 --> 01:14:24,005
I think with the same effort,
1283
01:14:24,047 --> 01:14:26,132
the judge could have
given him a hundred years.
1284
01:14:26,174 --> 01:14:29,803
I don't expect that he is
ever going to be in a jail.
1285
01:14:29,844 --> 01:14:33,473
- This is for
future generations,
1286
01:14:33,515 --> 01:14:35,809
for all those people
1287
01:14:35,850 --> 01:14:38,228
who are still murdering people
1288
01:14:38,269 --> 01:14:40,313
because they are
different colour,
1289
01:14:40,355 --> 01:14:42,816
different tribe,
different religion.
1290
01:14:42,857 --> 01:14:45,985
It is for them to know
that judgment,
1291
01:14:46,027 --> 01:14:50,156
no matter how long it will take,
will catch up with them.
1292
01:14:50,198 --> 01:14:54,035
***
1293
01:15:02,002 --> 01:15:06,339
My being a witness
was like putting a bouquet
1294
01:15:06,381 --> 01:15:09,676
on the non-existent grave
of my parents.
1295
01:15:09,718 --> 01:15:13,847
I feel that my loved ones
who were murdered
1296
01:15:13,888 --> 01:15:18,018
finally got some justice...
1297
01:15:18,059 --> 01:15:21,354
that my murdered
mother and father
1298
01:15:21,396 --> 01:15:24,232
now, perhaps,
1299
01:15:24,274 --> 01:15:27,235
can rest in peace.
1300
01:15:38,913 --> 01:15:42,542
- I feel tremendous elation
1301
01:15:42,584 --> 01:15:47,047
in the fact that I am sitting
in a German court,
1302
01:15:47,088 --> 01:15:49,716
with my daughter,
1303
01:15:49,758 --> 01:15:51,760
with my granddaughter,
1304
01:15:51,801 --> 01:15:53,762
which proves that we,
1305
01:15:53,803 --> 01:15:57,724
like the eternal phoenix,
1306
01:15:57,766 --> 01:16:01,686
rise again from
the Holocaust ashes,
1307
01:16:01,728 --> 01:16:04,147
that we can survive.
1308
01:16:04,189 --> 01:16:06,983
***
101467
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