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1
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- Thank you.
2
00:00:14,965 --> 00:00:16,103
- Okay.
3
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- On est prĂȘt?
4
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- D'accord.
- Merci.
5
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- I loved to go to the movies,
but it never occurred to me
6
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that I could ever make movies.
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In fact,
I went to undergraduate school
8
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in engineering,
which I hated from day one.
9
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- I mean,
it just sort of happened.
10
00:00:51,344 --> 00:00:52,724
- Before making films,
I worked
11
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as a professional chef
for about 10 years.
12
00:01:04,310 --> 00:01:06,206
- Even when I was 14,
13
00:01:06,310 --> 00:01:07,896
I knew I would make films.
14
00:01:09,310 --> 00:01:11,517
I started to develop stories
and screenplays
15
00:01:11,620 --> 00:01:14,448
and was always chased
out of offices of producers.
16
00:01:14,551 --> 00:01:16,758
- As a 16-year-old,
it seemed to me
17
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that it would be a waste of time
to be a writer;
18
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the majority of the population
19
00:01:20,758 --> 00:01:22,379
wouldn't be able
to read what I wrote.
20
00:01:22,482 --> 00:01:25,103
And I loved going to films
even then.
21
00:01:25,206 --> 00:01:27,724
I thought films
was really my medium.
22
00:01:37,068 --> 00:01:39,827
- So I became an editor
at first,
23
00:01:39,931 --> 00:01:42,793
because it was that darkness
I liked.
24
00:01:42,896 --> 00:01:46,000
- Starting out life
as a psychologist,
25
00:01:46,103 --> 00:01:49,310
in science you learn
to be open-minded.
26
00:01:49,413 --> 00:01:52,103
Very important
to making a documentary.
27
00:01:58,827 --> 00:02:00,862
- My first job
on a documentary shoot
28
00:02:00,965 --> 00:02:02,724
was, you know:
Here's the Nagra,
29
00:02:02,827 --> 00:02:04,586
you're recording sound.
And I was, like, oh my God!
30
00:02:04,689 --> 00:02:07,000
- Working
with that amazing dance
31
00:02:07,103 --> 00:02:09,379
with people in the frame...
32
00:02:09,482 --> 00:02:11,586
- You'd go to lunch
and talk about it.
33
00:02:11,689 --> 00:02:13,827
There was just this great
kind of immersion
34
00:02:13,931 --> 00:02:15,344
in the adventure of it,
35
00:02:15,448 --> 00:02:16,931
which I found
incredibly appealing.
36
00:02:17,034 --> 00:02:18,620
- It was... astounding,
37
00:02:18,724 --> 00:02:21,931
and I just fell in love.
38
00:02:22,034 --> 00:02:24,344
- And then I went
to film school,
39
00:02:24,448 --> 00:02:26,827
then I dropped out
of film school,
40
00:02:26,931 --> 00:02:28,413
but that's another story.
41
00:02:38,551 --> 00:02:39,586
- Documentary filmmaking
42
00:02:39,689 --> 00:02:43,137
and what we call
film d'auteur -
43
00:02:43,241 --> 00:02:45,517
cinema d'auteur,
author's film -
44
00:02:45,620 --> 00:02:47,655
is...
45
00:02:47,758 --> 00:02:49,758
is the absolutely...
46
00:02:49,862 --> 00:02:53,172
the freest way of cinema.
47
00:02:53,275 --> 00:02:56,862
You have
such an enormous spectrum
48
00:02:56,965 --> 00:02:59,517
of possibilities of expression.
49
00:03:01,862 --> 00:03:04,724
- But I'm sorry,
I speak English,
50
00:03:04,827 --> 00:03:07,241
but not very well. Huh?
51
00:03:07,344 --> 00:03:09,000
- In the middle of the night,
52
00:03:09,103 --> 00:03:11,517
with a tiny camera
in my right hand,
53
00:03:11,620 --> 00:03:14,000
with a tiny candle
in my left hand,
54
00:03:14,103 --> 00:03:15,758
lighting the person's face,
55
00:03:15,862 --> 00:03:18,931
and that was, you know,
becomes cinema.
56
00:03:19,034 --> 00:03:22,103
It goes on screens
around the world.
57
00:03:22,206 --> 00:03:24,896
You cannot have less,
you know?
58
00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:25,965
- Documentary filmmaking
59
00:03:26,068 --> 00:03:28,000
is about being inspired
by the moment.
60
00:03:28,103 --> 00:03:31,689
It's about the joy
of letting something affect you,
61
00:03:31,793 --> 00:03:33,241
and respond.
62
00:03:33,344 --> 00:03:34,689
Whether it's with your camera,
63
00:03:34,793 --> 00:03:37,448
or yourself as a person
if you're the interviewer.
64
00:03:37,551 --> 00:03:41,172
It's about relating in a space,
like dancing.
65
00:03:41,275 --> 00:03:43,586
- Real life
is so much more interesting
66
00:03:43,689 --> 00:03:47,241
and so much more bizarre
than anything you can make up.
67
00:03:47,344 --> 00:03:49,931
And, you know, the imagination
is always limited,
68
00:03:50,034 --> 00:03:52,103
but somehow reality
is infinitely bizarre
69
00:03:52,206 --> 00:03:53,724
and weird and compelling.
70
00:03:55,413 --> 00:03:57,482
It's the thing
that fiction films,
71
00:03:57,586 --> 00:03:59,758
no matter how good they are,
just can't offer.
72
00:04:12,689 --> 00:04:15,344
- It's a very...
sort of super-real thing
73
00:04:15,448 --> 00:04:17,517
that you're doing.
It's highly charged.
74
00:04:17,620 --> 00:04:19,689
It forces people
to examine themselves.
75
00:04:19,793 --> 00:04:21,310
It's very intense.
76
00:04:30,103 --> 00:04:33,172
- I think of it, as a filmmaker,
77
00:04:33,275 --> 00:04:35,965
as a way to understand conflicts
78
00:04:36,068 --> 00:04:37,827
and... and human contradictions
79
00:04:37,931 --> 00:04:39,448
and power.
80
00:04:40,896 --> 00:04:43,310
You have people who
are confronted with decisions
81
00:04:43,413 --> 00:04:45,758
and what are they gonna do.
82
00:05:08,344 --> 00:05:11,413
- The part that I like
about documentary
83
00:05:11,517 --> 00:05:14,586
is that it can be anything.
84
00:05:14,689 --> 00:05:18,241
The part I don't like about it,
85
00:05:18,344 --> 00:05:22,034
is that you are constantly
being told
86
00:05:22,137 --> 00:05:25,793
that documentary
has to be one thing
87
00:05:25,896 --> 00:05:28,965
rather than a whole multiple
of possible things.
88
00:05:29,068 --> 00:05:31,482
Gus Rose walked in.
89
00:05:34,172 --> 00:05:37,344
- He had a confession
he wanted me to sign.
90
00:05:40,758 --> 00:05:42,620
He, uh... said
that Iwould sign it.
91
00:05:42,724 --> 00:05:44,586
He didn't give a damn
what I said.
92
00:05:44,689 --> 00:05:48,137
- We all know
that you can create things
93
00:05:48,241 --> 00:05:50,275
that are about the world.
94
00:05:50,379 --> 00:05:53,620
They're not meant
as purely fiction.
95
00:05:53,724 --> 00:05:57,517
They're meant as stories
about real events,
96
00:05:57,620 --> 00:05:59,241
real people.
97
00:06:01,448 --> 00:06:05,241
We piece together reality,
each one of us,
98
00:06:05,344 --> 00:06:08,068
from bits and pieces of stuff.
99
00:06:08,172 --> 00:06:10,965
Reality isn't handed to us
whole.
100
00:06:18,413 --> 00:06:21,965
- It has the power to plant
questions in people's minds.
101
00:06:22,068 --> 00:06:25,655
It has the power to make you
empathize with things
102
00:06:25,758 --> 00:06:28,586
which you never really knew
103
00:06:28,689 --> 00:06:31,172
you could empathize with.
104
00:06:41,931 --> 00:06:44,137
- Rather than telling people
what to think,
105
00:06:44,241 --> 00:06:46,827
or, you know,
they're learning a lesson,
106
00:06:46,931 --> 00:06:49,379
we're taking them through
an emotional experience
107
00:06:49,482 --> 00:06:51,965
which opens a little window
into something.
108
00:07:03,172 --> 00:07:04,793
- It's an emotional medium.
109
00:07:04,896 --> 00:07:07,413
It's not a medium of intellect
110
00:07:07,517 --> 00:07:09,758
and intellectual discourse.
111
00:07:09,862 --> 00:07:12,068
It's about engagement...
112
00:07:12,172 --> 00:07:13,827
and emotion.
113
00:07:21,655 --> 00:07:23,068
- The form itself
114
00:07:23,172 --> 00:07:25,068
is no longer a kind of linear...
115
00:07:25,172 --> 00:07:26,551
information-based form.
116
00:07:26,655 --> 00:07:28,448
It's something which can take
117
00:07:28,551 --> 00:07:29,965
from other art forms,
118
00:07:30,068 --> 00:07:32,517
from the great river of cinema.
119
00:07:36,206 --> 00:07:38,172
I see them all like
a painter would see them,
120
00:07:38,275 --> 00:07:39,586
as kind of colours on a palette,
121
00:07:39,689 --> 00:07:41,137
as you're making a painting.
122
00:07:41,241 --> 00:07:43,689
And the painting is,
in our world now,
123
00:07:43,793 --> 00:07:45,379
a documentary film.
124
00:09:22,379 --> 00:09:24,827
- There's so many ideas
for documentaries out there.
125
00:09:24,931 --> 00:09:28,344
You know, you'll go to a party
or be talking to a friend:
126
00:09:28,448 --> 00:09:30,724
"Oh, you know,
it'd make a great film."
127
00:09:30,827 --> 00:09:33,310
There's just ideas just floating
out there in the ether,
128
00:09:33,413 --> 00:09:35,275
but the ones that stick
are, again,
129
00:09:35,379 --> 00:09:37,689
these ones where you have
a lot of curiosity.
130
00:09:37,793 --> 00:09:40,344
I think, for me,
that's the biggest thing:
131
00:09:40,448 --> 00:09:42,137
is there enough
personal curiosity
132
00:09:42,241 --> 00:09:43,137
about that subject,
133
00:09:43,241 --> 00:09:45,172
about what happens
in that story,
134
00:09:45,275 --> 00:09:47,517
to propel the very long,
enervating process
135
00:09:47,620 --> 00:09:49,482
that is making a film?
136
00:10:02,034 --> 00:10:06,689
- The eureka moment for me,
when I'm thinking about a film,
137
00:10:06,793 --> 00:10:08,827
is when I really feel
138
00:10:08,931 --> 00:10:12,310
there's something
I want to say and it...
139
00:10:12,413 --> 00:10:14,862
I don't know, I feel arrogant.
140
00:10:14,965 --> 00:10:18,344
It sounds, to me,
arrogant to say that.
141
00:10:18,448 --> 00:10:20,793
Like, why would, you know,
I have anything to say
142
00:10:20,896 --> 00:10:22,344
that people
haven't already thought of?
143
00:10:22,448 --> 00:10:23,793
But, in fact,
144
00:10:23,896 --> 00:10:27,000
that is the little egotism
of the artist.
145
00:10:27,103 --> 00:10:29,241
- I feel very intrigued...
146
00:10:29,344 --> 00:10:33,862
by the enigma of human beings,
you know.
147
00:10:33,965 --> 00:10:35,793
How somebody really nice,
very sympathetic,
148
00:10:35,896 --> 00:10:37,689
can just sit there and say:
149
00:10:37,793 --> 00:10:41,827
"Yeah, my job is flying bombs
into the Congo," you know?
150
00:10:44,241 --> 00:10:47,206
The origin of the idea
was that moment 10 years ago
151
00:10:47,310 --> 00:10:49,482
when I met
some of these Russian pilots.
152
00:10:49,586 --> 00:10:51,172
And I knew I had something
153
00:10:51,275 --> 00:10:53,482
in my hands
that was very explosive.
154
00:10:53,586 --> 00:10:54,862
It was very clear.
155
00:10:54,965 --> 00:10:57,896
And I knew I had found
the right location
156
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and the right environment
157
00:10:59,206 --> 00:11:02,551
to make a point
on the state of our time,
158
00:11:02,655 --> 00:11:04,068
economically and socially.
159
00:11:04,172 --> 00:11:07,758
One strange product,
which is that fish,
160
00:11:07,862 --> 00:11:10,241
tells us the whole story
of our times, in a way,
161
00:11:10,344 --> 00:11:11,793
you know?
162
00:11:14,482 --> 00:11:16,482
- I mean, I always tell people,
163
00:11:16,586 --> 00:11:18,896
"If you can walk away,
walk away."
164
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,896
It's only when you can't walk
away from a subject
165
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,241
that you should make it,
166
00:11:24,344 --> 00:11:27,689
because it's too hard
to make documentaries,
167
00:11:27,793 --> 00:11:30,103
it requires
enormous commitment, time.
168
00:11:30,206 --> 00:11:33,482
You will never
be rewarded financially enough.
169
00:11:33,586 --> 00:11:37,862
So the need to make it
is actually, I think,
170
00:11:37,965 --> 00:11:39,620
the first essential point.
171
00:11:39,724 --> 00:11:41,379
- I stumble across things
172
00:11:41,482 --> 00:11:43,620
that immediately
fascinate me deeply,
173
00:11:43,724 --> 00:11:47,103
and then I know
there is no choice.
174
00:11:47,206 --> 00:11:51,137
All the projects I have done
were uninvited guests.
175
00:11:51,241 --> 00:11:53,758
Like having...
inviting two guests for dinner
176
00:11:53,862 --> 00:11:56,724
and you open the door
a little bit
177
00:11:56,827 --> 00:12:00,482
and all of a sudden
you have the entire apartment,
178
00:12:00,586 --> 00:12:02,724
the house
full of uninvited guests.
179
00:12:02,827 --> 00:12:04,827
- I'm giving this talk
in Chicago
180
00:12:04,931 --> 00:12:07,034
and this man mentions
Henry Darger
181
00:12:07,137 --> 00:12:09,482
and that he knows
Darger's last landlady,
182
00:12:09,586 --> 00:12:13,758
and then the next thing I know,
I'm standing in Darger's room.
183
00:12:13,862 --> 00:12:15,931
The room that really
was the place
184
00:12:16,034 --> 00:12:18,172
where he spent
the last 40 years.
185
00:12:18,275 --> 00:12:21,344
And I wasn't thinking
I wanted to make a film.
186
00:12:21,448 --> 00:12:23,137
I just wanted
to see more of the work,
187
00:12:23,241 --> 00:12:25,862
but when I stood in that room,
I had one of those moments
188
00:12:25,965 --> 00:12:27,517
where my heart
was just beating really fast
189
00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:28,931
and I was just thinking
190
00:12:29,034 --> 00:12:31,310
the presence of this person
was so strong.
191
00:12:31,413 --> 00:12:32,965
And this room was so beautiful.
192
00:12:33,068 --> 00:12:35,758
Like, everything in there
was sort of old and dusty,
193
00:12:35,862 --> 00:12:38,034
but everything was something
he had collected there,
194
00:12:38,137 --> 00:12:41,448
and there was just this sense
of the person in the place
195
00:12:41,551 --> 00:12:44,965
that I felt that you could
make a film out of this.
196
00:12:45,068 --> 00:12:46,586
And I wanted to know more.
197
00:12:46,689 --> 00:12:49,172
And that was the beginning
of the ball rolling,
198
00:12:49,275 --> 00:12:51,724
the curiosity building
and the sense that I needed
199
00:12:51,827 --> 00:12:54,620
to try to follow this
and see where it went.
200
00:12:54,724 --> 00:12:57,862
- There's a lot of serendipity
in this world.
201
00:12:57,965 --> 00:13:01,517
I mean, certain projects,
you kind of... you stalk,
202
00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:03,793
and you try to make them.
203
00:13:03,896 --> 00:13:06,862
Others come
and land in your lap.
204
00:13:14,344 --> 00:13:16,448
- I was driving my car
205
00:13:16,551 --> 00:13:18,689
and I hear the news,
206
00:13:18,793 --> 00:13:21,413
the shooting in Oka.
207
00:13:22,758 --> 00:13:25,275
And when I arrived there,
208
00:13:25,379 --> 00:13:27,379
there was a barricade
of police officers
209
00:13:27,482 --> 00:13:29,517
and you couldn't go
into the village.
210
00:13:29,620 --> 00:13:31,379
I just was amazed,
211
00:13:31,482 --> 00:13:34,724
and I guess I felt it's my duty,
212
00:13:34,827 --> 00:13:38,000
it has to be documented
by one of us.
213
00:13:39,413 --> 00:13:42,241
I wanted to transmit
what I felt and saw there,
214
00:13:42,344 --> 00:13:44,896
and what the story was
215
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,724
and what it was like...
216
00:13:49,448 --> 00:13:51,137
... so that whoever's
looking at it
217
00:13:51,241 --> 00:13:53,103
can understand
what that story is,
218
00:13:53,206 --> 00:13:55,275
'cause it was so complicated.
219
00:13:58,034 --> 00:14:01,413
It'll last two or three days,
220
00:14:01,517 --> 00:14:02,689
or another weekend.
221
00:14:02,793 --> 00:14:04,758
But it lasted 78 days.
222
00:14:10,896 --> 00:14:14,206
- Sometimes you just end up
in these incredible situations
223
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:17,344
which you probably,
in the light of day,
224
00:14:17,448 --> 00:14:20,103
would choose
maybe not to get into,
225
00:14:20,206 --> 00:14:21,551
but by that time,
226
00:14:21,655 --> 00:14:24,310
you're so intrigued
that you continue on.
227
00:14:24,413 --> 00:14:26,655
- I trotted off quite innocently
to Cornwall,
228
00:14:26,758 --> 00:14:29,068
innocently inasmuch
as I was looking round
229
00:14:29,172 --> 00:14:30,793
in the area of hunting,
230
00:14:30,896 --> 00:14:33,068
but not to actually do a hunt.
231
00:14:33,172 --> 00:14:35,896
I wanted to get into something
quite remote,
232
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,551
but I wasn't quite sure what.
233
00:14:41,620 --> 00:14:43,793
This old man
who worked for the hunt
234
00:14:43,896 --> 00:14:46,689
went out and about in his van
picking up animals,
235
00:14:46,793 --> 00:14:49,793
and the first place we went to,
he just shot it.
236
00:14:49,896 --> 00:14:53,000
- This is a Jersey cross,
so there's no future in him...
237
00:14:53,103 --> 00:14:54,793
- A, that shocked me,
but B,
238
00:14:54,896 --> 00:14:57,137
then to discover the animal
was completely healthy,
239
00:14:57,241 --> 00:14:59,241
and this was just
about market values,
240
00:14:59,344 --> 00:15:00,586
that got me going.
241
00:15:00,689 --> 00:15:03,862
Then you're on it.
Then you know
242
00:15:03,965 --> 00:15:07,862
there is something happening
that you need to follow,
243
00:15:07,965 --> 00:15:11,103
and it starts
to dictate your journey.
244
00:15:11,206 --> 00:15:15,689
- So we only get rid
of that sort, you know...
245
00:15:17,344 --> 00:15:19,655
- What's the dramatic premise?
Who is it about?
246
00:15:19,758 --> 00:15:21,586
- What's the underlying story?
247
00:15:21,689 --> 00:15:23,172
- There's something that's
really important
248
00:15:23,275 --> 00:15:24,448
that's on the line.
249
00:15:24,551 --> 00:15:26,275
- You have to have
some kind of framework,
250
00:15:26,379 --> 00:15:27,758
what you're planning to do.
251
00:15:27,862 --> 00:15:30,344
- You have to keep adjusting
to what is going on.
252
00:15:30,448 --> 00:15:33,103
- And I was totally unprepared.
I had no shooting permit,
253
00:15:33,206 --> 00:15:35,068
I had no crew,
I had nothing...
254
00:15:35,172 --> 00:15:37,724
- Okay, get the camera out,
quick! You know, shoot...
255
00:15:37,827 --> 00:15:40,241
- A lot of it is just luck.
256
00:16:00,137 --> 00:16:02,689
- For me,
it's more about the ideas
257
00:16:02,793 --> 00:16:05,275
and the structure
at an early stage,
258
00:16:05,379 --> 00:16:09,758
because I always feel
if I have a shape, or a story,
259
00:16:09,862 --> 00:16:11,965
or a movement through a film,
260
00:16:12,068 --> 00:16:14,000
then other things will follow.
261
00:16:16,586 --> 00:16:18,034
- About a year ago,
262
00:16:18,137 --> 00:16:20,448
I found out that I might have
263
00:16:20,551 --> 00:16:23,379
100 or even 200
half-brothers and sisters.
264
00:16:23,482 --> 00:16:24,862
I don't know who they are.
265
00:16:24,965 --> 00:16:26,413
Nor do I know the man
266
00:16:26,517 --> 00:16:28,620
from whose body
we were all made.
267
00:16:30,931 --> 00:16:33,724
- I was looking
for a dramatic setup,
268
00:16:33,827 --> 00:16:37,103
a dramatic question
which would drive the quest.
269
00:16:37,206 --> 00:16:41,551
The basic dramatic question is:
Will this guy find his bio-dad?
270
00:16:41,655 --> 00:16:44,689
The underlying question is:
271
00:16:44,793 --> 00:16:47,275
What is the meaning of family?
272
00:16:47,379 --> 00:16:49,172
And I knew
I had a couple of leads
273
00:16:49,275 --> 00:16:50,586
on who the sperm donor
might be.
274
00:16:50,689 --> 00:16:52,724
So I knew I had that.
Eight possible sperm donors,
275
00:16:52,827 --> 00:16:55,275
all negative.
276
00:16:55,379 --> 00:16:58,068
So I knew that those leads
would take me somewhere.
277
00:16:58,172 --> 00:17:00,655
So I figured
I had enough of a quest,
278
00:17:00,758 --> 00:17:01,896
with some ups and downs,
279
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,620
and that's what
I structured beforehand.
280
00:17:03,724 --> 00:17:06,758
And I was nervous,
'cause, I mean,
281
00:17:06,862 --> 00:17:08,034
what if nothing happened?
282
00:17:08,137 --> 00:17:11,241
Can you get the name
of the donor or identify--
283
00:17:11,344 --> 00:17:13,206
- No, no, you can't.
- You can't?
284
00:17:13,310 --> 00:17:16,689
- No. No, we do have it,
but we're not allowed to,
285
00:17:16,793 --> 00:17:19,275
because it's confidential
and the donors only donate
286
00:17:19,379 --> 00:17:21,655
under that basis,
that it'll remain confidential.
287
00:17:21,758 --> 00:17:23,551
- All right,
well, thank you very much
288
00:17:23,655 --> 00:17:25,310
for the information.
- Okay, then.
289
00:18:19,931 --> 00:18:23,482
- In the Realms of the Unreal
was the most pre-scripted film
290
00:18:23,586 --> 00:18:26,448
that I'd worked on
up to that point.
291
00:18:26,551 --> 00:18:29,413
The paintings were one component
of a world
292
00:18:29,517 --> 00:18:31,034
that Henry Darger was creating.
293
00:18:31,137 --> 00:18:34,448
He had written, you know,
the 15,000-page novel,
294
00:18:34,551 --> 00:18:36,068
he was writing, you know,
295
00:18:36,172 --> 00:18:39,103
these battle songs
to be played in his head.
296
00:18:39,206 --> 00:18:43,172
And he was really creating
as three-dimensional a world
297
00:18:43,275 --> 00:18:45,517
as he could to, you know,
298
00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:48,689
sort of populate
this sort of ultimate story.
299
00:18:48,793 --> 00:18:51,275
The structure was the thing
that I worked hardest on.
300
00:18:51,379 --> 00:18:52,862
How to tell
the parallel stories.
301
00:18:52,965 --> 00:18:55,655
The stories
of Henry Darger's real life,
302
00:18:55,758 --> 00:18:57,862
what happened factually,
in that time.
303
00:18:57,965 --> 00:19:00,758
What was happening
in the world around him?
304
00:19:00,862 --> 00:19:04,517
And then what was the story
that he was telling
305
00:19:04,620 --> 00:19:06,000
in his fiction,
306
00:19:06,103 --> 00:19:09,620
in the book
In the Realms of the Unreal?
307
00:19:09,724 --> 00:19:13,620
So to find a way
to weave those things together
308
00:19:13,724 --> 00:19:15,310
was a real challenge.
309
00:19:15,413 --> 00:19:16,793
- I always think making a film
310
00:19:16,896 --> 00:19:18,862
is a bit like
kind of building blocks.
311
00:19:18,965 --> 00:19:21,137
You start off
with one thing and then you...
312
00:19:21,241 --> 00:19:23,241
that gives you a certain amount
of information,
313
00:19:23,344 --> 00:19:25,724
you move on to the next thing
and then...
314
00:19:25,827 --> 00:19:28,413
So a film becomes
more and more...
315
00:19:28,517 --> 00:19:30,793
you get
more and more information
316
00:19:30,896 --> 00:19:32,758
as you make a film,
317
00:19:32,862 --> 00:19:35,482
and you have
more and more questions.
318
00:19:35,586 --> 00:19:38,655
And your questions
become more and more focused.
319
00:19:38,758 --> 00:19:40,724
- Before you start a film,
you don't just go
320
00:19:40,827 --> 00:19:42,137
and, like,
cast a net everywhere.
321
00:19:42,241 --> 00:19:45,103
I mean, you have to say:
This is what I'm interested in.
322
00:19:48,586 --> 00:19:50,965
My Country, My Country
looks at an Iraqi family
323
00:19:51,068 --> 00:19:53,241
and what happens to them
during the occupation,
324
00:19:53,344 --> 00:19:55,275
but it's really, I think,
a film about America
325
00:19:55,379 --> 00:19:57,413
and what America is doing
in Iraq right now.
326
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:05,655
You're sort of on this journey,
327
00:20:05,758 --> 00:20:07,793
but you don't know
necessarily where it's going.
328
00:20:07,896 --> 00:20:09,551
There is a sort
of delicate balance
329
00:20:09,655 --> 00:20:10,965
of having a plan,
330
00:20:11,068 --> 00:20:13,862
and then also surrendering
to what you encounter.
331
00:20:20,965 --> 00:20:22,896
And the next challenge
is identifying the people
332
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,344
who you'll follow,
333
00:20:24,448 --> 00:20:26,586
who will take you
through this conflict.
334
00:20:30,034 --> 00:20:32,551
- In a way, you're casting,
you know,
335
00:20:32,655 --> 00:20:35,551
when you go out
and you meet people,
336
00:20:35,655 --> 00:20:37,827
you're assessing
the level of interest
337
00:20:37,931 --> 00:20:41,172
you think that they will have
for the audience.
338
00:20:41,275 --> 00:20:44,172
How engaging are they?
How articulate are they?
339
00:20:44,275 --> 00:20:46,724
What are their particular
interests and quirks?
340
00:20:46,827 --> 00:20:49,310
You know,
what is it about them
341
00:20:49,413 --> 00:20:51,896
that makes them fascinating
to you?
342
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,758
- When I think of Kathleen...
343
00:21:00,344 --> 00:21:02,344
... what I remember,
344
00:21:02,448 --> 00:21:04,034
unfortunately,
345
00:21:04,137 --> 00:21:06,068
is her dying in my arms.
346
00:21:08,275 --> 00:21:11,172
That's always
the overwhelming...
347
00:21:11,275 --> 00:21:12,758
image.
348
00:21:29,103 --> 00:21:31,862
- And yet, within,
hell, 30 minutes
349
00:21:31,965 --> 00:21:34,758
of that sonofabitch
coming in here,
350
00:21:34,862 --> 00:21:38,172
it was... it was a crime scene
351
00:21:38,275 --> 00:21:42,103
and I was guilty
and that was it!
352
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,344
- Now I'm not ready
and I have no make-up on!
353
00:22:10,448 --> 00:22:12,724
But things are getting better!
354
00:22:12,827 --> 00:22:15,689
Did you find my sign,
"in bathtub"?
355
00:22:15,793 --> 00:22:18,310
- There we are
outside of the house with Edie,
356
00:22:18,413 --> 00:22:19,758
and this decaying old mansion
357
00:22:19,862 --> 00:22:22,034
with her mother inside.
358
00:22:22,137 --> 00:22:24,000
Hi.
- Hang on.
359
00:22:24,103 --> 00:22:25,551
- Take your time.
360
00:22:30,931 --> 00:22:32,689
It's important
that you choose someone
361
00:22:32,793 --> 00:22:35,620
that you can connect with,
362
00:22:35,724 --> 00:22:38,379
and hopefully things will happen
363
00:22:38,482 --> 00:22:41,275
that were not predicted
specifically
364
00:22:41,379 --> 00:22:44,103
before you got into it,
365
00:22:44,206 --> 00:22:48,172
but things
would take a turn for...
366
00:22:48,275 --> 00:22:49,965
toward a story.
367
00:22:51,448 --> 00:22:55,000
- Very depressing, you know,
when winter sets in here.
368
00:22:55,103 --> 00:22:57,586
Because I don't like
the country
369
00:22:57,689 --> 00:23:00,275
and I don't want to be here.
370
00:23:00,379 --> 00:23:03,241
Any little rat's nest
in New York,
371
00:23:03,344 --> 00:23:06,482
any little mouse hole,
any little rat hole,
372
00:23:06,586 --> 00:23:10,103
even on 10th Avenue,
I would like better.
373
00:23:15,620 --> 00:23:17,965
- I primarily
make character films.
374
00:23:18,068 --> 00:23:21,793
I hide my issues
in character and stories.
375
00:23:21,896 --> 00:23:23,758
But I've gotta find
the characters,
376
00:23:23,862 --> 00:23:27,827
I've got to cast it,
to know who to hang it on.
377
00:23:27,931 --> 00:23:30,344
- Doomsday, they tell me.
They tell me doomsday...
378
00:23:30,448 --> 00:23:32,103
We're all gonna die!
Hello.
379
00:23:32,206 --> 00:23:34,344
- The reason
they wanted to be filmed
380
00:23:34,448 --> 00:23:36,275
is that their station
was literally
381
00:23:36,379 --> 00:23:38,931
being allowed
to be run into the ground.
382
00:23:39,034 --> 00:23:41,413
When people feel they're being
flushed down the loo, basically,
383
00:23:41,517 --> 00:23:43,448
I think if someone comes in
and says,
384
00:23:43,551 --> 00:23:46,862
"Can I - I want to shine light
upon you," then people respond.
385
00:23:46,965 --> 00:23:48,310
There's a reason.
386
00:23:48,413 --> 00:23:50,448
- We close at midnight, love,
take your time.
387
00:23:50,551 --> 00:23:52,068
- But I didn't know
the characters.
388
00:23:52,172 --> 00:23:54,517
I certainly didn't know Derek
in the ticket shop,
389
00:23:54,620 --> 00:23:57,137
and he wouldn't let me in
the ticket shop,
390
00:23:57,241 --> 00:23:59,206
'cause I didn't have
the correct paperwork.
391
00:23:59,310 --> 00:24:02,551
God, he was pedantic.
Which is why it was so magical
392
00:24:02,655 --> 00:24:04,103
when I got in there
393
00:24:04,206 --> 00:24:07,620
that he was as he was.
- ... and be prepared to accept
394
00:24:07,724 --> 00:24:10,310
that you're not going
to go any further.
395
00:24:10,413 --> 00:24:11,827
I think that's the difference
396
00:24:11,931 --> 00:24:13,517
between being happy
and miserable.
397
00:24:13,620 --> 00:24:16,724
Because I'm not going
to achieve anything in life.
398
00:24:18,379 --> 00:24:21,172
So, as you say,
I must be depressed, mustn't I?
399
00:24:21,275 --> 00:24:22,758
Hmm.
400
00:24:24,206 --> 00:24:26,827
- What would you have actually
liked to have achieved?
401
00:24:26,931 --> 00:24:28,758
- I don't really know.
402
00:24:28,862 --> 00:24:31,827
Dreams you can have,
but that's not the same
403
00:24:31,931 --> 00:24:34,448
as wanting to achieve something,
is it?
404
00:24:36,655 --> 00:24:39,413
- People want
to talk to cameras mostly,
405
00:24:39,517 --> 00:24:42,275
not because
they want to be famous,
406
00:24:42,379 --> 00:24:44,758
it's because
there's such a seductivity
407
00:24:44,862 --> 00:24:46,827
of just a neutral listener.
408
00:24:46,931 --> 00:24:50,103
And usually we've been trained
to be listeners
409
00:24:50,206 --> 00:24:52,103
when we have a camera.
410
00:24:52,206 --> 00:24:55,862
And that is a rare thing
in our world:
411
00:24:55,965 --> 00:24:58,310
somebody to just listen to you.
412
00:24:58,413 --> 00:25:00,482
- People will say things
in front of a camera
413
00:25:00,586 --> 00:25:02,724
that they wouldn't even say
to their loved ones.
414
00:25:02,827 --> 00:25:04,448
That's what I find
is so strange.
415
00:25:04,551 --> 00:25:06,241
The camera
has this effect on you,
416
00:25:06,344 --> 00:25:07,517
where somehow,
417
00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:09,310
because of the artificiality
of the situation,
418
00:25:09,413 --> 00:25:10,965
you're more honest
and more truthful
419
00:25:11,068 --> 00:25:12,827
rather than less honest
and truthful,
420
00:25:12,931 --> 00:25:15,034
and I don't know
quite why that is.
421
00:25:15,137 --> 00:25:16,448
Simon!!!
422
00:25:16,551 --> 00:25:20,000
- He would've been up
at first light, I thought,
423
00:25:20,103 --> 00:25:22,310
because I was desperately,
desperately thirsty
424
00:25:22,413 --> 00:25:25,586
and he would've wanted
to get down and get water.
425
00:25:25,689 --> 00:25:27,965
And he would've wanted
to find me.
426
00:25:28,068 --> 00:25:29,379
- Now I did stop and pause
427
00:25:29,482 --> 00:25:31,172
and I shouted across
into the crevasse.
428
00:25:31,275 --> 00:25:33,448
I yelled and yelled
and yelled, "Joe, Joe..."
429
00:25:33,551 --> 00:25:35,344
- As I was interviewing
Joe and Simon,
430
00:25:35,448 --> 00:25:36,620
they would, first of all,
431
00:25:36,724 --> 00:25:38,862
come out with this very pat,
very simplistic version
432
00:25:38,965 --> 00:25:41,137
of things,
and for a couple of hours,
433
00:25:41,241 --> 00:25:43,310
we just go that out of the way,
434
00:25:43,413 --> 00:25:46,275
and then they kind of ran out
of things to say.
435
00:25:46,379 --> 00:25:48,068
And then this extraordinary
thing happens
436
00:25:48,172 --> 00:25:49,517
where, actually,
437
00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:52,310
the camera starts to act
as a kind of catalyst
438
00:25:52,413 --> 00:25:55,482
and starts to sort of almost
drag things out of people.
439
00:25:55,586 --> 00:25:58,689
- And I suppose, again,
with the benefit of hindsight,
440
00:25:58,793 --> 00:26:01,517
you know,
after I got off the rope,
441
00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:04,620
I should have gone
and looked into the crevasse
442
00:26:04,724 --> 00:26:07,482
to see where he was,
you know, but...
443
00:26:07,586 --> 00:26:10,206
- You could literally
see them...
444
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:12,275
reliving elements of it.
445
00:26:12,379 --> 00:26:17,034
You know, once I started
to see that on the monitor,
446
00:26:17,137 --> 00:26:19,965
Well, that's the film.
447
00:26:21,793 --> 00:26:24,206
- I think the interesting thing
is to know:
448
00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:25,275
What is the relationship
449
00:26:25,379 --> 00:26:27,068
between the person
behind the camera
450
00:26:27,172 --> 00:26:29,551
and the person
in front of the camera?
451
00:26:29,655 --> 00:26:30,965
Because that's something
452
00:26:31,068 --> 00:26:32,551
an audience
have the right to know.
453
00:26:32,655 --> 00:26:35,655
It's, like: Do these people
like each other?
454
00:26:35,758 --> 00:26:38,000
Do they have
an intimate relationship?
455
00:26:38,103 --> 00:26:40,034
Is it a relationship of trust?
456
00:26:40,137 --> 00:26:42,448
What does the filmmaker
actually really think?
457
00:26:42,551 --> 00:26:44,517
- Phew!
458
00:26:44,620 --> 00:26:46,655
- There's this sort
of weird intensity
459
00:26:46,758 --> 00:26:48,379
in the relationship
that develops.
460
00:26:48,482 --> 00:26:50,793
Which developed with
Aileen Wuornos in particular.
461
00:26:50,896 --> 00:26:54,931
- We have evil in us,
all of us do.
462
00:26:55,034 --> 00:26:58,275
And my evil
would just happen to...
463
00:26:58,379 --> 00:27:01,172
come out
because of the circumstances
464
00:27:01,275 --> 00:27:03,379
of what I was doing.
465
00:27:03,482 --> 00:27:05,655
Hitchhiking, hooking,
on the road...
466
00:27:05,758 --> 00:27:09,482
I was a homeless person
all my life.
467
00:27:09,586 --> 00:27:12,275
- The, uh, Aileen film was...
468
00:27:14,413 --> 00:27:17,000
... probably the most difficult
thing I've ever done
469
00:27:17,103 --> 00:27:19,724
and I imagine
Nick feels the same way.
470
00:27:19,827 --> 00:27:21,275
Uh...
471
00:27:22,620 --> 00:27:27,103
You know,
we had a relationship with her.
472
00:27:27,206 --> 00:27:30,724
She actually requested
that we come
473
00:27:30,827 --> 00:27:34,206
and be witnesses
to the execution,
474
00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:36,241
which, uh...
475
00:27:36,344 --> 00:27:38,448
we declined.
476
00:27:39,862 --> 00:27:43,413
- I choose people
that I can relate to.
477
00:27:43,517 --> 00:27:47,241
And I... I trust, also,
from my side.
478
00:27:47,344 --> 00:27:49,482
And I...
479
00:27:49,586 --> 00:27:52,241
before switching on a camera,
I usually...
480
00:27:55,931 --> 00:27:58,206
... tell them,
as good as I can,
481
00:27:58,310 --> 00:28:00,586
who I am and what I am doing,
482
00:28:00,689 --> 00:28:02,931
what I'm made of, you know.
483
00:28:08,448 --> 00:28:10,344
Elizabeth was a key character,
484
00:28:10,448 --> 00:28:12,965
was a very close friend of ours.
485
00:28:13,068 --> 00:28:16,103
Insider, in a way.
486
00:28:16,206 --> 00:28:18,206
She knew
what we were looking for,
487
00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:19,620
she knew our thoughts,
488
00:28:19,724 --> 00:28:21,620
she knew, you know,
what we're...
489
00:28:21,724 --> 00:28:23,758
what we're about to do,
490
00:28:23,862 --> 00:28:25,344
what kind of film.
491
00:28:34,931 --> 00:28:37,068
- And suddenly
she's not there anymore.
492
00:28:37,172 --> 00:28:38,482
She's dead.
493
00:28:38,586 --> 00:28:42,000
And, of course,
it had to be a part of the film.
494
00:28:42,103 --> 00:28:44,517
Because it was so hard
on ourselves and...
495
00:28:44,620 --> 00:28:45,965
and, of course,
496
00:28:46,068 --> 00:28:48,586
it's a very, very painful part
of the film.
497
00:28:48,689 --> 00:28:50,724
Because the pain
we had as filmmakers
498
00:28:50,827 --> 00:28:52,206
is now on screen.
499
00:28:55,689 --> 00:28:58,896
And that is what we call
art of cinema,
500
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,862
is to transform
a life experience into cinema
501
00:29:01,965 --> 00:29:04,896
and then make it
into your life experience,
502
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,379
as a spectator.
503
00:31:33,586 --> 00:31:39,000
- People think they're going
to be interviewed
504
00:31:39,103 --> 00:31:42,206
sitting behind a desk
505
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:44,862
with a flag and a flower
behind them.
506
00:31:44,965 --> 00:31:48,103
And, you know,
they become very presentational.
507
00:31:48,206 --> 00:31:52,103
Uh, and I think what Nick does
is fantastic,
508
00:31:52,206 --> 00:31:55,655
because he... he gets people
in their essence.
509
00:31:55,758 --> 00:31:58,965
That's why he likes
to be rolling
510
00:31:59,068 --> 00:32:03,172
when we knock on a door
and somebody opens it.
511
00:32:03,275 --> 00:32:05,413
- I heard he was at least 6'7.
512
00:32:08,965 --> 00:32:11,034
- Our brains are saturated
with information
513
00:32:11,137 --> 00:32:13,655
within the first second
of seeing somebody.
514
00:32:13,758 --> 00:32:17,068
- A knock like that,
it gotta be somebody scared.
515
00:32:18,413 --> 00:32:20,724
You was knockin'
like you were scared, man.
516
00:32:20,827 --> 00:32:22,241
- Scared.
- Yeah.
517
00:32:22,344 --> 00:32:24,344
- No, I'm not scared.
- All right.
518
00:32:24,448 --> 00:32:27,206
- You see this sort of giant.
It's very funny.
519
00:32:27,310 --> 00:32:30,793
I think it's quite revealing
of both me and him.
520
00:32:34,241 --> 00:32:36,310
We take in information
so quickly.
521
00:32:36,413 --> 00:32:39,551
And the audience is getting
all this information too.
522
00:32:39,655 --> 00:32:40,862
- Black people don't do that.
523
00:32:40,965 --> 00:32:43,586
You want it clear,
I want you to see!
524
00:32:43,689 --> 00:32:46,241
Folks'll be running out the door
with your television!
525
00:32:46,344 --> 00:32:48,931
- I think there's been
a tradition in the past
526
00:32:49,034 --> 00:32:51,068
of going in
and interviewing people
527
00:32:51,172 --> 00:32:53,655
and changing
their sitting room all around
528
00:32:53,758 --> 00:32:56,172
and relighting it,
and all you're doing
529
00:32:56,275 --> 00:32:59,896
is destroying the very things
that you should be filming.
530
00:33:00,827 --> 00:33:04,379
- My dad used to tell me
when I was a young kid,
531
00:33:04,482 --> 00:33:07,344
I'd look at a job
that had to be done
532
00:33:07,448 --> 00:33:08,758
and he'd say to me,
533
00:33:08,862 --> 00:33:10,241
"You know,
nothing's impossible."
534
00:33:10,344 --> 00:33:12,413
And that always stuck
in my craw.
535
00:33:12,517 --> 00:33:14,655
I couldn't believe it -
"nothing's impossible."
536
00:33:14,758 --> 00:33:17,620
- There was no such office.
We created the office.
537
00:33:17,724 --> 00:33:21,482
He had the insurance trophies
up in the attic in a box,
538
00:33:21,586 --> 00:33:25,034
we brought 'em down,
we put 'em up on the wall.
539
00:33:25,137 --> 00:33:27,000
We created this environment
for him.
540
00:33:27,103 --> 00:33:29,862
- ... and I'd specifically
designed my office
541
00:33:29,965 --> 00:33:33,724
so that I could display
the maximum trophies
542
00:33:33,827 --> 00:33:35,655
on walls and stuff.
543
00:33:35,758 --> 00:33:39,034
- And in that environment,
he came alive.
544
00:33:39,137 --> 00:33:42,172
It was a return to these...
545
00:33:42,275 --> 00:33:45,862
heroic-insurance-salesman
moments of the past.
546
00:33:45,965 --> 00:33:49,000
He came alive for the camera.
547
00:33:49,103 --> 00:33:50,482
We created something
548
00:33:50,586 --> 00:33:54,241
which was part
of his fantasy world.
549
00:33:54,344 --> 00:33:57,206
- I don't like this whole idea
of interview,
550
00:33:57,310 --> 00:33:58,965
you know,
in a documentary,
551
00:33:59,068 --> 00:34:01,103
because it's like
somebody's telling you
552
00:34:01,206 --> 00:34:02,620
something that's happened,
or...
553
00:34:02,724 --> 00:34:05,517
and you sort of set something,
you know.
554
00:34:05,620 --> 00:34:07,620
Whereas, what I... what I love,
555
00:34:07,724 --> 00:34:10,517
is when things happen naturally
in real life.
556
00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:12,000
It's this whole thing
557
00:34:12,103 --> 00:34:14,344
of seeing something unfold
in front of you.
558
00:34:14,448 --> 00:34:17,586
Fouzia,
the little nine-year-old,
559
00:34:17,689 --> 00:34:19,137
who was eight
when she was circumcised,
560
00:34:19,241 --> 00:34:21,827
she came up to me
and said, "Come to my house."
561
00:34:21,931 --> 00:34:24,241
Oh, she's going
to read me a poem
562
00:34:24,344 --> 00:34:25,793
and then she expects
an interview.
563
00:34:25,896 --> 00:34:27,896
I said, "We don't really
do interviews, Fouzia."
564
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,689
And she said,
"You've got to come.
565
00:34:29,793 --> 00:34:31,793
I've depended on... I want...
I've got a reason
566
00:34:31,896 --> 00:34:34,241
for you to come,
I want you to come."
567
00:34:34,344 --> 00:34:36,862
So we went and,
"Stand there, Kim. Right."
568
00:34:36,965 --> 00:34:40,103
And then she told me the poem
right into the camera.
569
00:34:40,206 --> 00:34:42,448
- I want to tell you a poem
570
00:34:42,551 --> 00:34:45,172
entitled
"The Day I Will Never Forget."
571
00:34:45,275 --> 00:34:49,206
"It was on a Sunday night
when my mum called me
572
00:34:49,310 --> 00:34:53,379
"and she said, 'My daughter,
come,' in a low voice.
573
00:34:53,482 --> 00:34:54,896
"I went quietly.
574
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,551
"Suddenly, my mom said,
575
00:34:56,655 --> 00:34:59,586
"'My daughter,
tomorrow is your D-Day.'
576
00:34:59,689 --> 00:35:02,068
"I was shocked to hear that,
577
00:35:02,172 --> 00:35:05,379
"but I was not expected
to say anything.
578
00:35:05,482 --> 00:35:09,137
"In the morning I was dragged
and pinned on the ground
579
00:35:09,241 --> 00:35:12,689
"when three women set
and crucified me on the floor.
580
00:35:12,793 --> 00:35:15,103
"I cried till I had no voice.
581
00:35:15,206 --> 00:35:18,931
"The only thing I said was,
'Mom, where are you?'
582
00:35:19,034 --> 00:35:22,896
"And the only answer I got
was, 'Quiet. Quiet, girl.'
583
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,241
"The pain I had experienced
584
00:35:24,344 --> 00:35:27,586
"was one I will never forget
for the rest of my life
585
00:35:27,689 --> 00:35:31,034
"and I would not wish the same
to happen to my friend.
586
00:35:31,137 --> 00:35:32,517
That night..."
587
00:35:32,620 --> 00:35:35,896
- I suppose those are the things
that you sort of depend
588
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,379
on happening,
but I couldn't have planned it.
589
00:35:38,482 --> 00:35:42,241
- The question
of how you frame an interview,
590
00:35:42,344 --> 00:35:44,586
how you photograph an interview,
591
00:35:44,689 --> 00:35:46,827
how you cut an interview,
592
00:35:46,931 --> 00:35:51,620
is all really up for grabs
and very, very interesting.
593
00:35:51,724 --> 00:35:53,896
What is at the heart of this?
594
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,379
This is the only job
you've ever had.
595
00:35:56,482 --> 00:35:59,206
- It's a more complex phenomenon
than you might think.
596
00:35:59,310 --> 00:36:01,586
- I'm learning about things
597
00:36:01,689 --> 00:36:03,827
I'm really fascinated with.
598
00:36:03,931 --> 00:36:06,241
- I was thinking
about the Interrotron
599
00:36:06,344 --> 00:36:08,758
before I even became
a filmmaker.
600
00:36:08,862 --> 00:36:10,206
I certainly was aware
601
00:36:10,310 --> 00:36:13,000
of this whole issue
of eye contact.
602
00:36:18,103 --> 00:36:20,344
- How could I get the person
I was interviewing
603
00:36:20,448 --> 00:36:23,724
to look at me
and look right into the lens
604
00:36:23,827 --> 00:36:25,689
at the same time?
605
00:36:25,793 --> 00:36:27,206
And...
606
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:29,551
the answer is mirrors.
607
00:36:30,965 --> 00:36:32,827
Prompters cross-connected,
608
00:36:32,931 --> 00:36:34,379
two cameras.
609
00:36:34,482 --> 00:36:36,758
My image
is floating on the lens,
610
00:36:36,862 --> 00:36:41,034
but the camera is looking
straight through that image
611
00:36:41,137 --> 00:36:43,517
at the person.
612
00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:45,206
It makes The Fog of War
613
00:36:45,310 --> 00:36:47,793
a different kind of film.
614
00:36:50,620 --> 00:36:52,551
You're really scrutinizing
McNamara,
615
00:36:52,655 --> 00:36:57,551
and McNamara is talking directly
to you and the audience.
616
00:36:57,655 --> 00:37:00,275
- He and I'd say I...
617
00:37:00,379 --> 00:37:02,931
were behaving as war criminals.
618
00:37:03,034 --> 00:37:06,379
- I don't even think
it was clear to me,
619
00:37:06,482 --> 00:37:09,344
at the time
that I was making it,
620
00:37:09,448 --> 00:37:11,551
how powerful
that actually could be.
621
00:37:11,655 --> 00:37:14,655
LeMay recognized
that what he was doing...
622
00:37:14,758 --> 00:37:16,172
would be thought immoral
623
00:37:16,275 --> 00:37:18,827
if his side had lost.
624
00:37:18,931 --> 00:37:20,896
Well what makes it immoral
if you lose
625
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,551
and not immoral if you win?
626
00:37:34,344 --> 00:37:35,689
- With a documentary,
627
00:37:35,793 --> 00:37:37,379
there's an agreement
with the audience
628
00:37:37,482 --> 00:37:40,000
that you are referencing,
or giving an account of,
629
00:37:40,103 --> 00:37:43,379
evidence-based reality.
630
00:37:43,482 --> 00:37:44,931
That you are actually saying,
631
00:37:45,034 --> 00:37:48,862
"This is the way the world is
as I see it."
632
00:37:48,965 --> 00:37:53,448
And that has very little to do
with whether you use actors
633
00:37:53,551 --> 00:37:55,586
or recreations,
or anything really,
634
00:37:55,689 --> 00:37:57,586
except that there's an agreement
635
00:37:57,689 --> 00:37:59,758
that this is an account
of reality.
636
00:37:59,862 --> 00:38:02,655
People have a sense
when that is violated.
637
00:38:04,310 --> 00:38:06,034
- This is Dieter Dengler.
638
00:38:06,137 --> 00:38:09,620
He came to America
40 years ago...
639
00:38:09,724 --> 00:38:12,517
- I just discovered
that Werner Herzog,
640
00:38:12,620 --> 00:38:16,517
when he did
Little Dieter Needs to Fly,
641
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:18,793
he had this scene
where Dieter comes home
642
00:38:18,896 --> 00:38:20,137
to his house in California
643
00:38:20,241 --> 00:38:22,758
and he opens and closes
the door several times.
644
00:38:22,862 --> 00:38:26,172
Because he was a prisoner
in Laos, he can't feel shut in,
645
00:38:26,275 --> 00:38:28,620
so he opens
and closes the door quickly
646
00:38:28,724 --> 00:38:30,275
to make sure it's unlocked.
647
00:38:30,379 --> 00:38:31,379
And it's a very powerful moment,
648
00:38:31,482 --> 00:38:33,034
and I always remember it
in the film.
649
00:38:33,137 --> 00:38:34,862
Total bullshit.
650
00:38:34,965 --> 00:38:37,655
Herzog made that up
and made him do it.
651
00:38:37,758 --> 00:38:39,517
And it is
a wonderful dramatization
652
00:38:39,620 --> 00:38:42,655
of the guy's theme,
but I think that's a lie.
653
00:38:42,758 --> 00:38:47,275
- Look at Michael Moore.
He makes pamphlets, basically.
654
00:38:47,379 --> 00:38:49,482
He makes polemical films,
655
00:38:49,586 --> 00:38:52,827
where he carefully constructs
a reality to serve his needs.
656
00:38:52,931 --> 00:38:55,413
And he's blatant about it
and he makes...
657
00:38:55,517 --> 00:38:57,448
he's careful
in checking his facts,
658
00:38:57,551 --> 00:39:00,758
but when you see his films,
which are hugely popular
659
00:39:00,862 --> 00:39:03,827
and have done a great deal
for us documentarians...
660
00:39:03,931 --> 00:39:06,896
but he commits,
some people would say,
661
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,103
crimes towards the art form
of documentary.
662
00:39:10,206 --> 00:39:11,827
- It is all manipulation.
663
00:39:11,931 --> 00:39:15,827
I mean, let's not be
too sort of saintly about this.
664
00:39:15,931 --> 00:39:18,724
I think filmmaking
and documentary-making
665
00:39:18,827 --> 00:39:21,137
is a very subjective process,
666
00:39:21,241 --> 00:39:24,586
and anybody
who tries to present themselves
667
00:39:24,689 --> 00:39:28,000
as telling the truth
in some way
668
00:39:28,103 --> 00:39:31,862
is perpetrating a fraud,
because it's just impossible.
669
00:39:31,965 --> 00:39:35,413
- This idea
that there is no such thing
670
00:39:35,517 --> 00:39:38,586
as absolute truth,
that truth is subjective -
671
00:39:38,689 --> 00:39:42,551
"there's truth for you,
there's truth for me,"
672
00:39:42,655 --> 00:39:44,827
"everybody
has their own truth" -
673
00:39:44,931 --> 00:39:46,379
um...
674
00:39:47,896 --> 00:39:50,241
... for me,
that's nonsense talk.
675
00:39:50,344 --> 00:39:52,137
There's a real world.
676
00:39:52,241 --> 00:39:54,551
We inhabit that real world.
677
00:39:54,655 --> 00:39:56,758
Things happen.
678
00:39:58,586 --> 00:40:00,379
Someone sits...
679
00:40:00,482 --> 00:40:03,551
in the driver's seat of that car
and pulls the trigger.
680
00:40:06,379 --> 00:40:08,620
That's not up for grabs.
681
00:40:10,620 --> 00:40:13,206
There's not this guy's truth
and that guy's truth.
682
00:40:13,310 --> 00:40:16,482
There's the truth of what
actually happened that night.
683
00:40:16,586 --> 00:40:18,482
- When you see a film
684
00:40:18,586 --> 00:40:23,275
and you have good reason
to think that it's the truth,
685
00:40:23,379 --> 00:40:26,379
then your knowledge
of the real world
686
00:40:26,482 --> 00:40:27,862
has been increased.
687
00:40:27,965 --> 00:40:32,103
And it's so important for us
to really know what's going on.
688
00:40:32,206 --> 00:40:34,965
- You do have to be respectful
of the facts.
689
00:40:35,068 --> 00:40:39,379
Yeah, you should let the facts
get in the way of a good story.
690
00:40:39,482 --> 00:40:41,137
You absolutely should.
691
00:40:41,241 --> 00:40:45,172
And out of that
will emerge a true story.
692
00:40:45,275 --> 00:40:48,137
- I tell the story in a way
693
00:40:48,241 --> 00:40:51,827
where I'm searching for...
not for just the facts,
694
00:40:51,931 --> 00:40:55,896
I am into something
which gives you deeper insight
695
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:57,310
into an essence,
696
00:40:57,413 --> 00:41:00,000
into a concentration
of something
697
00:41:00,103 --> 00:41:04,931
that is way beyond facts
and that is truth,
698
00:41:05,034 --> 00:41:10,344
"an ecstasy of truth,"
as I sometimes call it.
699
00:41:10,448 --> 00:41:13,862
Otherwise,
facts are not that interesting.
700
00:41:13,965 --> 00:41:16,034
If you want to have facts,
701
00:41:16,137 --> 00:41:17,655
go and buy yourself
702
00:41:17,758 --> 00:41:20,448
the phone directory
of Manhattan.
703
00:41:20,551 --> 00:41:22,413
You've got eight-million entries
704
00:41:22,517 --> 00:41:25,344
and they're all correct,
they're all facts,
705
00:41:25,448 --> 00:41:27,862
but they do not constitute
anything.
706
00:41:27,965 --> 00:41:29,793
- All of it is artificial.
707
00:41:29,896 --> 00:41:33,379
They're all different shades
of the same colour.
708
00:41:33,482 --> 00:41:35,965
What I'm trying
to do in my films
709
00:41:36,068 --> 00:41:37,965
is equally dishonest,
if you like.
710
00:41:38,068 --> 00:41:40,655
I'm trying to say,
"This really is real.
711
00:41:40,758 --> 00:41:43,655
"This is me, hand-holding,
they're talking to me,
712
00:41:43,758 --> 00:41:47,655
there are no other gizmos,
this is life as it happens."
713
00:41:47,758 --> 00:41:49,379
But obviously
that's also rubbish,
714
00:41:49,482 --> 00:41:51,000
because I've chosen that person.
715
00:41:51,103 --> 00:41:53,655
The person's changing their
behaviour because I'm there.
716
00:41:53,758 --> 00:41:56,655
In the edit,
they'll be put in a context
717
00:41:56,758 --> 00:41:58,448
that makes them
slightly different.
718
00:41:58,551 --> 00:42:00,103
- I mean, we're all aware
719
00:42:00,206 --> 00:42:03,724
that there is no such thing
as an objective voice.
720
00:42:03,827 --> 00:42:05,517
So you must acknowledge
perspective,
721
00:42:05,620 --> 00:42:07,310
but at the same time,
722
00:42:07,413 --> 00:42:11,034
I really think that unless
you are constantly checking
723
00:42:11,137 --> 00:42:13,896
and calibrating that perspective
as you're working,
724
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,862
you can stray off
into dangerous places,
725
00:42:16,965 --> 00:42:19,172
ethically, morally.
726
00:42:19,275 --> 00:42:22,103
- The sequence
in One Day In September
727
00:42:22,206 --> 00:42:24,620
where we see
Joseph Romano's body,
728
00:42:24,724 --> 00:42:27,896
him in a photograph dead,
covered in blood,
729
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,068
presents classic filmmaker's
moral dilemma.
730
00:42:31,172 --> 00:42:33,344
- I can imagine him...
731
00:42:33,448 --> 00:42:36,379
... calling my name.
732
00:42:40,068 --> 00:42:41,827
- Joseph Romano's wife
and his daughter
733
00:42:41,931 --> 00:42:45,206
saw the way that we put this
together and they were appalled.
734
00:42:45,310 --> 00:42:47,137
They said, initially,
735
00:42:47,241 --> 00:42:50,896
"We don't want that sequence
to be in the film."
736
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,517
As a storyteller,
you want to impact your audience
737
00:42:55,620 --> 00:42:59,034
and show them
how terrible this event was.
738
00:42:59,137 --> 00:43:01,862
I said if you want people
to feel
739
00:43:01,965 --> 00:43:03,344
like somebody's really to blame,
740
00:43:03,448 --> 00:43:06,724
you need to show them
what they're to blame for.
741
00:43:06,827 --> 00:43:08,172
So, in the end,
742
00:43:08,275 --> 00:43:11,517
they agreed
that the footage should stay in.
743
00:43:11,620 --> 00:43:14,344
Ultimately, you've got
to look into yourself and say,
744
00:43:14,448 --> 00:43:16,862
"Do I feel like I'm doing
something exploitative,
745
00:43:16,965 --> 00:43:18,344
or don't I?"
746
00:43:18,448 --> 00:43:20,758
And it has to be
a personal decision
747
00:43:20,862 --> 00:43:23,448
and there is
no hard and fast rule.
748
00:43:25,068 --> 00:43:27,655
- I always tell
the individual person,
749
00:43:27,758 --> 00:43:30,034
because it always happens.
750
00:43:30,137 --> 00:43:32,241
We get very intimate
751
00:43:32,344 --> 00:43:35,310
and the person is in confidence
752
00:43:35,413 --> 00:43:37,931
and will say things sometimes
753
00:43:38,034 --> 00:43:42,206
that they never said before
to anyone else,
754
00:43:42,310 --> 00:43:44,275
because of the relationship
755
00:43:44,379 --> 00:43:47,103
you develop with your subject.
756
00:43:48,482 --> 00:43:51,275
And I always say to them,
at first,
757
00:43:51,379 --> 00:43:53,965
"Should it be
that you say something
758
00:43:54,068 --> 00:43:57,344
"that you feel very sorry
that you said it,
759
00:43:57,448 --> 00:43:59,724
"you tell me...
760
00:43:59,827 --> 00:44:01,758
and I don't have to use that."
761
00:44:03,137 --> 00:44:05,103
Now the difference is,
many people say,
762
00:44:05,206 --> 00:44:06,482
"You're crazy to do this,
763
00:44:06,586 --> 00:44:08,793
"because what if the person
tells you something
764
00:44:08,896 --> 00:44:11,000
"and you're the only one
that knows it
765
00:44:11,103 --> 00:44:13,413
and it's very important
to the film?"
766
00:44:13,517 --> 00:44:17,275
For me,
it's never important enough
767
00:44:17,379 --> 00:44:21,034
for me to damage someone's life.
768
00:44:21,137 --> 00:44:25,137
- We think
it's a kind of noble enterprise.
769
00:44:25,241 --> 00:44:27,310
We're revealing
and capturing people's stories
770
00:44:27,413 --> 00:44:30,241
and transforming them
and sharing them with people,
771
00:44:30,344 --> 00:44:33,965
but in fact we rely very much
on people's stories,
772
00:44:34,068 --> 00:44:37,034
so we are sucking,
in a certain way,
773
00:44:37,137 --> 00:44:39,206
the stories right out of people.
774
00:44:39,310 --> 00:44:42,655
- You know,
it's a difficult job sometimes.
775
00:44:42,758 --> 00:44:44,137
There's a conflict.
776
00:44:44,241 --> 00:44:45,931
Sometimes you want something
in the film
777
00:44:46,034 --> 00:44:48,275
and they don't want
to be in the film.
778
00:44:48,379 --> 00:44:51,896
There's a bit of a feeling
of "grab it and run," you know,
779
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,103
there's a temptation
to want to do that.
780
00:44:54,206 --> 00:44:55,517
- I really have a problem
781
00:44:55,620 --> 00:44:57,241
with this sort
of documentary tradition
782
00:44:57,344 --> 00:45:00,275
of, sort of, the First World
going to the Third World
783
00:45:00,379 --> 00:45:01,793
and bringing
those pictures back.
784
00:45:01,896 --> 00:45:04,655
I mean, I think it doesn't...
I think it's problematic,
785
00:45:04,758 --> 00:45:06,551
because it really doesn't
address the fact:
786
00:45:06,655 --> 00:45:08,241
Who's actually
looking at these films?
787
00:45:08,344 --> 00:45:11,793
- This type of punishment,
they can't bear it,
788
00:45:11,896 --> 00:45:13,482
because they are children.
789
00:45:13,586 --> 00:45:16,379
- We have looked through
every one of these files.
790
00:45:16,482 --> 00:45:18,241
These juveniles are dangerous.
791
00:45:18,344 --> 00:45:20,620
- You know,
it'd be very easy for me
792
00:45:20,724 --> 00:45:22,137
to have made a film
793
00:45:22,241 --> 00:45:23,896
about my imperilled experience
in Iraq.
794
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,689
And so if I had
a bunch of Americans
795
00:45:26,793 --> 00:45:28,793
watching a film
about me in Iraq,
796
00:45:28,896 --> 00:45:32,241
it would basically be a story
about how dangerous Iraqis are.
797
00:45:32,344 --> 00:45:33,793
And, ultimately,
798
00:45:33,896 --> 00:45:37,551
the film is how much Iraqis
are suffering in this war,
799
00:45:37,655 --> 00:45:39,482
how much like us they are,
800
00:45:39,586 --> 00:45:42,068
and how little
we know about them.
801
00:45:48,931 --> 00:45:51,275
- What people often say is,
you know,
802
00:45:51,379 --> 00:45:54,827
people from a country should
film people in that country,
803
00:45:54,931 --> 00:45:57,655
and that's...
there's a big truth in that,
804
00:45:57,758 --> 00:46:00,482
particularly for countries
that have always been filmed
805
00:46:00,586 --> 00:46:03,103
by people from outside
'cause of economics.
806
00:46:03,206 --> 00:46:04,413
But within that country,
807
00:46:04,517 --> 00:46:06,206
there's so many
different layers.
808
00:46:06,310 --> 00:46:07,965
Often people with the equipment
809
00:46:08,068 --> 00:46:11,793
are gonna be people
from the upper part of society.
810
00:46:13,379 --> 00:46:16,137
And I remember
with the court case at the end
811
00:46:16,241 --> 00:46:18,344
in The Day I Will Never Forget,
812
00:46:18,448 --> 00:46:20,241
there was a local TV crew,
813
00:46:20,344 --> 00:46:22,586
these two Kenyan guys there...
814
00:46:24,379 --> 00:46:26,827
- We said to them,
"Are you going to come back
815
00:46:26,931 --> 00:46:29,586
in two weeks, you know,
when we get the verdict?"
816
00:46:29,689 --> 00:46:31,896
They said, "Oh no,
it's not a big story,
817
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,758
and it wasn't very interesting,
we're not gonna come back."
818
00:46:34,862 --> 00:46:37,758
And that's what I say to people
when they say, you know,
819
00:46:37,862 --> 00:46:41,034
"How dare you, Kim,
go to Kenya and make a film?"
820
00:46:53,517 --> 00:46:55,655
- That court case
would never have been filmed,
821
00:46:55,758 --> 00:46:57,724
because it wasn't thought of
as important.
822
00:46:57,827 --> 00:47:00,793
It was never gonna be filmed
by local TV crews,
823
00:47:00,896 --> 00:47:02,172
because they were interested
824
00:47:02,275 --> 00:47:04,482
in filming the dignitaries,
the rich people,
825
00:47:04,586 --> 00:47:06,827
what they thought of
as TV events.
826
00:47:06,931 --> 00:47:09,172
And these little girls
from the mountains
827
00:47:09,275 --> 00:47:12,758
taking their parents to court
wasn't seen as a news story.
828
00:47:12,862 --> 00:47:16,275
- For me, one
of the most important aspects
829
00:47:16,379 --> 00:47:18,965
of this ethical enterprise
called documentary
830
00:47:19,068 --> 00:47:22,793
is to really protect
the subjects that we're filming.
831
00:47:22,896 --> 00:47:27,586
They're living
in parts of the world
832
00:47:27,689 --> 00:47:29,965
that are less privileged
than ours,
833
00:47:30,068 --> 00:47:32,758
and, literally,
their lives are on the line.
834
00:48:33,793 --> 00:48:36,310
- In the first week of filming,
I was arrested twice,
835
00:48:36,413 --> 00:48:38,517
I was chased by mobs
once or twice.
836
00:48:38,620 --> 00:48:41,586
And I knew that this
was being done on orders
837
00:48:41,689 --> 00:48:43,793
from, you know,
ministers in the government
838
00:48:43,896 --> 00:48:46,586
at that point and so on.
So, if anything,
839
00:48:46,689 --> 00:48:49,620
it got my back up
and I said, you know,
840
00:48:49,724 --> 00:48:52,655
"I'm actually more determined
to finish the film."
841
00:49:00,586 --> 00:49:02,241
- Adversity is a natural element
842
00:49:02,344 --> 00:49:04,793
in which a movie
is getting created.
843
00:49:04,896 --> 00:49:06,344
In a way,
844
00:49:06,448 --> 00:49:10,551
filmmaking is not welcome
to the regular world,
845
00:49:10,655 --> 00:49:15,379
and you have to anticipate
there will be controversies,
846
00:49:15,482 --> 00:49:17,758
there will be adversities...
847
00:49:23,310 --> 00:49:25,551
- Almost every single film,
848
00:49:25,655 --> 00:49:29,068
you think you're going this way,
you hit a wall,
849
00:49:29,172 --> 00:49:31,172
you have to go this way,
850
00:49:31,275 --> 00:49:33,137
and, lo and behold,
851
00:49:33,241 --> 00:49:37,344
it takes you into an area
that is unexpected
852
00:49:37,448 --> 00:49:39,241
and actually is your movie.
853
00:49:40,862 --> 00:49:42,931
With A Place Called Chiapas,
854
00:49:43,034 --> 00:49:45,586
I ran into a real wall
855
00:49:45,689 --> 00:49:47,689
with Subcomandante Marcos,
856
00:49:47,793 --> 00:49:49,793
who was one
of the major figures,
857
00:49:49,896 --> 00:49:51,965
the iconic figure
of the Zapatista uprising,
858
00:49:52,068 --> 00:49:54,862
and the two of us
ended up arguing.
859
00:49:54,965 --> 00:49:57,034
You know, we didn't get along,
860
00:49:57,137 --> 00:49:58,793
which was like a nightmare.
861
00:49:58,896 --> 00:50:01,655
And besides all of that,
he was busy!
862
00:50:01,758 --> 00:50:03,931
He was running a revolution,
right?
863
00:50:04,034 --> 00:50:05,482
- Subcomandante Marcos!
864
00:50:05,586 --> 00:50:08,655
- It cranked up the stakes
of the film on all sides.
865
00:50:08,758 --> 00:50:10,758
It made it
a more sophisticated film,
866
00:50:10,862 --> 00:50:12,586
a more complex film.
867
00:50:23,517 --> 00:50:25,689
- From all sorts of sides,
868
00:50:25,793 --> 00:50:28,103
there are forces
intruding on you,
869
00:50:28,206 --> 00:50:31,655
and you have to keep them
at a distance,
870
00:50:31,758 --> 00:50:34,862
and you have to...
to move on anyway.
871
00:50:48,379 --> 00:50:52,344
- You have to be able
to be alive to the moment.
872
00:50:52,448 --> 00:50:55,379
You have to be so aware
of everything
873
00:50:55,482 --> 00:50:57,241
that is happening around you.
874
00:51:03,620 --> 00:51:05,827
- When I get something
that reads on screen
875
00:51:05,931 --> 00:51:09,379
the way it was unfolding
in reality,
876
00:51:09,482 --> 00:51:11,413
it's still magic to me.
877
00:51:17,586 --> 00:51:19,517
- You're always
gonna miss something,
878
00:51:19,620 --> 00:51:21,482
but it's okay.
879
00:51:21,586 --> 00:51:24,275
What you need to get,
you'll get.
880
00:53:07,862 --> 00:53:10,344
- I think the access
you go in with
881
00:53:10,448 --> 00:53:13,586
is often not the same access
you come out with.
882
00:53:13,689 --> 00:53:15,793
In a way,
just by your presence,
883
00:53:15,896 --> 00:53:17,068
your friendships,
your behaviour,
884
00:53:17,172 --> 00:53:19,965
you hope that the trust
and the access deepens.
885
00:53:20,068 --> 00:53:22,482
You have superficial access,
but it's your job
886
00:53:22,586 --> 00:53:25,413
to then make it deeper
and deeper and deeper
887
00:53:25,517 --> 00:53:27,275
to people
and what they're feeling,
888
00:53:27,379 --> 00:53:30,793
but also often higher and higher
and higher in the hierarchy,
889
00:53:30,896 --> 00:53:31,965
because people in power
890
00:53:32,068 --> 00:53:34,586
are always so reluctant
to be filmed.
891
00:53:42,379 --> 00:53:43,931
- Even once Kofi Annan said yes,
892
00:53:44,034 --> 00:53:45,344
all the worker bees
893
00:53:45,448 --> 00:53:47,827
didn't want to know anything
about me,
894
00:53:47,931 --> 00:53:51,310
but there was one person
who was key to me -
895
00:53:51,413 --> 00:53:54,482
and she was a woman
who was gonna lead
896
00:53:54,586 --> 00:53:56,965
a peacekeeping operation
over to the Congo -
897
00:53:57,068 --> 00:54:00,827
and even she said to me,
"I know why you're here,
898
00:54:00,931 --> 00:54:03,172
"and I don't want to have
anything to do with you,
899
00:54:03,275 --> 00:54:04,379
"I don't want to be filmed,
900
00:54:04,482 --> 00:54:06,068
"I don't think
what we do is public,
901
00:54:06,172 --> 00:54:07,586
"it doesn't help me
that you're here,
902
00:54:07,689 --> 00:54:09,620
"and I'm gonna make it
as hard as I can
903
00:54:09,724 --> 00:54:11,482
to make it impossible
for you to film."
904
00:54:11,586 --> 00:54:14,655
And I said, "Okay."
Her name was Meg Carey,
905
00:54:14,758 --> 00:54:17,517
and I said, "Okay, Meg,
well, there we go.
906
00:54:17,620 --> 00:54:19,655
I mean, I'm not gonna leave..."
907
00:54:19,758 --> 00:54:22,827
And we headed off to the Congo
the next week
908
00:54:22,931 --> 00:54:26,344
and it took about a year
for Meg to come onside,
909
00:54:26,448 --> 00:54:27,482
but eventually she did,
910
00:54:27,586 --> 00:54:29,551
and eventually
Meg became the film.
911
00:54:29,655 --> 00:54:31,551
And she became my conduit
912
00:54:31,655 --> 00:54:34,000
inside this extremely complex
organization.
913
00:54:35,862 --> 00:54:39,034
- ... It is once again
a unilateral action
914
00:54:39,137 --> 00:54:41,034
taken by the government...
915
00:55:03,586 --> 00:55:05,689
- I actually do not like
meeting people
916
00:55:05,793 --> 00:55:08,241
before... if I'm going
to film with them.
917
00:55:08,344 --> 00:55:10,758
I do not even
go through any organizations
918
00:55:10,862 --> 00:55:14,827
or any contacts at ground level.
I just go to the area.
919
00:55:16,275 --> 00:55:18,896
- Ninety percent of the people
I've interviewed in the film
920
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,620
are people I've never met
in my life before.
921
00:55:38,344 --> 00:55:40,758
- I decided
not to use microphones
922
00:55:40,862 --> 00:55:44,724
and lights and, you know,
any kind of intrusive equipment.
923
00:55:44,827 --> 00:55:47,137
I shoot with a tiny handycam.
924
00:55:47,241 --> 00:55:50,517
In that, sort of making
the person who I'm with
925
00:55:50,620 --> 00:55:52,206
completely comfortable.
926
00:57:24,655 --> 00:57:26,827
- I'm following something,
I'm like on a river,
927
00:57:26,931 --> 00:57:29,344
I'm following it,
I don't know where it's going.
928
00:57:29,448 --> 00:57:32,620
And that's the scary side of it,
because I think, you know:
929
00:57:32,724 --> 00:57:35,379
Maybe I won't get a story,
maybe things won't happen,
930
00:57:35,482 --> 00:57:37,620
but the sort of wonderful side
of it
931
00:57:37,724 --> 00:57:40,689
is that you could be somewhere
and it all starts happening,
932
00:57:40,793 --> 00:57:42,103
and you're filming it.
933
00:57:42,206 --> 00:57:44,620
- Do you want
to go off to bed, darling?
934
00:57:44,724 --> 00:57:48,482
- In Hold Me Tight, Let Me Go,
there's a scene
935
00:57:48,586 --> 00:57:50,827
where there's this little boy,
Ben,
936
00:57:50,931 --> 00:57:53,344
and you can see
that he's very, very quiet,
937
00:57:53,448 --> 00:57:55,413
because he's in love
with his mom
938
00:57:55,517 --> 00:57:57,034
and he doesn't want to move.
939
00:57:57,137 --> 00:57:59,275
And you can see
that she's already disengaged,
940
00:57:59,379 --> 00:58:01,655
she's already going on
and wanting to leave
941
00:58:01,758 --> 00:58:03,586
and go back to her own life.
942
00:58:03,689 --> 00:58:06,206
And you can see that the social
worker's rather cross with her,
943
00:58:06,310 --> 00:58:08,344
'cause she's late and she knows
she doesn't really want
944
00:58:08,448 --> 00:58:09,827
to be there,
she's already moved on.
945
00:58:09,931 --> 00:58:11,413
So you can see
these three things.
946
00:58:11,517 --> 00:58:12,965
- Ben, it's time to go.
947
00:58:13,068 --> 00:58:15,344
- I'm hoping the audience,
in that one scene,
948
00:58:15,448 --> 00:58:17,862
will see it from
all different points of view.
949
00:58:17,965 --> 00:58:20,448
And I think the only way
that can happen
950
00:58:20,551 --> 00:58:22,689
is if the scene
isn't controlled.
951
00:58:22,793 --> 00:58:25,655
- Good boy, Ben.
I'll see you again soon.
952
00:58:25,758 --> 00:58:27,931
Keep up the good work, Ben.
953
00:58:28,034 --> 00:58:29,448
- There's a kind
of looseness to it,
954
00:58:29,551 --> 00:58:31,862
so you can put yourself into it,
so they're long shots
955
00:58:31,965 --> 00:58:33,620
that hopefully the audience
can put themselves into.
956
00:58:33,724 --> 00:58:35,310
- You're constantly
having to be aware
957
00:58:35,413 --> 00:58:37,206
that you shouldn't interfere
with the action,
958
00:58:37,310 --> 00:58:40,344
so your body cannot
get in the way of the door,
959
00:58:40,448 --> 00:58:42,517
or the relationship
with someone else in the room,
960
00:58:42,620 --> 00:58:44,655
or you have to be careful
that your presence
961
00:58:44,758 --> 00:58:46,586
isn't going to block
somewhere they might go.
962
00:58:46,689 --> 00:58:48,862
And I like
the lack of communication,
963
00:58:48,965 --> 00:58:52,310
I like the fact that
that's just me working that out,
964
00:58:52,413 --> 00:58:55,206
so I know what I want
from that person,
965
00:58:55,310 --> 00:58:56,827
and I know how, maybe,
966
00:58:56,931 --> 00:58:59,379
I'm going to sit with them
and shoot with them.
967
00:58:59,482 --> 00:59:01,241
The nightmare is obviously:
being a cameraman
968
00:59:01,344 --> 00:59:04,000
is a whole job in itself
and quite a complicated job,
969
00:59:04,103 --> 00:59:06,034
and there's a lot
that can go wrong.
970
00:59:06,137 --> 00:59:09,000
- Allez. Allez...
971
00:59:14,275 --> 00:59:17,034
- The feeling
of holding a camera
972
00:59:17,137 --> 00:59:19,793
and being a part of a scene,
973
00:59:19,896 --> 00:59:22,862
and reacting
and responding to a scene,
974
00:59:22,965 --> 00:59:24,586
it's just thrilling.
975
00:59:24,689 --> 00:59:27,793
And that is the secret
that camera people never tell,
976
00:59:27,896 --> 00:59:30,034
that the joy is in the shooting.
977
00:59:41,896 --> 00:59:45,275
- I don't think the way
most cinematographers do,
978
00:59:45,379 --> 00:59:48,793
getting a wide shot
and a close-up
979
00:59:48,896 --> 00:59:52,103
and a reaction shot
and so forth.
980
00:59:54,586 --> 00:59:58,310
I see things
the way I would as a person,
981
00:59:58,413 --> 01:00:01,172
and I think
that helps the process,
982
01:00:01,275 --> 01:00:03,862
for the person who watches it,
983
01:00:03,965 --> 01:00:08,206
to feel a greater closeness
to what's going on.
984
01:00:09,551 --> 01:00:12,206
- You can see
how complete it is.
985
01:00:12,310 --> 01:00:15,517
The bible runs
as little as $49.95...
986
01:00:15,620 --> 01:00:17,379
- The opening scene of Salesmen
987
01:00:17,482 --> 01:00:20,103
is such a perfect kind
of forecast
988
01:00:20,206 --> 01:00:21,586
of what's to come.
989
01:00:21,689 --> 01:00:24,344
- Which plan
would be the best for you?
990
01:00:24,448 --> 01:00:26,758
The A, B, or C?
991
01:00:26,862 --> 01:00:29,793
- I'm really not interested.
I want to think it over
992
01:00:29,896 --> 01:00:31,517
with my husband.
- Yeah. Yeah...
993
01:00:31,620 --> 01:00:33,724
- Also such a perfect revelation
994
01:00:33,827 --> 01:00:36,931
of my camera work at its best.
995
01:00:37,034 --> 01:00:39,482
In the middle
of that little scene,
996
01:00:39,586 --> 01:00:42,689
you see the child
on the mother's lap yawning,
997
01:00:42,793 --> 01:00:46,586
and then it seems it at...
at exactly the right moment,
998
01:00:46,689 --> 01:00:49,517
but a moment
totally chosen by the child,
999
01:00:49,620 --> 01:00:51,068
not by me.
1000
01:00:51,172 --> 01:00:52,793
She goes over to the piano
1001
01:00:52,896 --> 01:00:56,034
and knocks out a tune
that Beethoven
1002
01:00:56,137 --> 01:00:59,724
couldn't have created
more appropriately for the mood.
1003
01:00:59,827 --> 01:01:03,344
- I just couldn't afford it now.
1004
01:01:03,448 --> 01:01:05,551
We're swamped
with medical bills.
1005
01:01:12,793 --> 01:01:15,379
- In the kind of shooting
that I do,
1006
01:01:15,482 --> 01:01:18,103
the smaller the team,
1007
01:01:18,206 --> 01:01:21,482
the better able you will be
to, you know,
1008
01:01:21,586 --> 01:01:25,241
not interfere with the process
that you're trying to shoot.
1009
01:01:25,344 --> 01:01:27,379
So I think, you know,
1010
01:01:27,482 --> 01:01:31,448
it's best if the person
who is the director
1011
01:01:31,551 --> 01:01:34,103
is either doing sound
or shooting,
1012
01:01:34,206 --> 01:01:37,344
and not just standing around
and conducting.
1013
01:01:37,448 --> 01:01:39,310
Which, you know,
1014
01:01:39,413 --> 01:01:42,310
I just would want that person
to be out of the room.
1015
01:02:25,758 --> 01:02:29,241
- I think when you work
with a cameraperson,
1016
01:02:29,344 --> 01:02:32,517
the difficulty,
I'm sure for every director,
1017
01:02:32,620 --> 01:02:35,379
is that the cameraperson
has to be your eyes, you know,
1018
01:02:35,482 --> 01:02:38,137
and you have to have
a certain trust in them.
1019
01:02:39,931 --> 01:02:42,310
I work with Claire Pijman,
1020
01:02:42,413 --> 01:02:44,310
who's a Dutch camerawoman,
1021
01:02:44,413 --> 01:02:47,034
and we've worked together now
for about 14 years.
1022
01:02:47,137 --> 01:02:48,689
While I create and imagine
1023
01:02:48,793 --> 01:02:50,517
a lot of scenes,
1024
01:02:50,620 --> 01:02:54,103
finally it's up to Claire
to see it the way I see it.
1025
01:02:56,310 --> 01:02:58,137
In Don't Ask Why,
1026
01:02:58,241 --> 01:03:02,103
I wanted a very particular way
of filming the scene
1027
01:03:02,206 --> 01:03:04,724
when Anusha is walking
through the bazaar
1028
01:03:04,827 --> 01:03:08,965
and there are all these men,
you know, staring at her.
1029
01:03:10,689 --> 01:03:13,310
I'd explained it to Claire,
she shot it for me,
1030
01:03:13,413 --> 01:03:15,482
she showed it to me
and she said,
1031
01:03:15,586 --> 01:03:18,172
"Is this what you want?"
And I said no.
1032
01:03:18,275 --> 01:03:21,172
I told her
that I really wanted it
1033
01:03:21,275 --> 01:03:23,344
to be more threatening.
1034
01:03:23,448 --> 01:03:25,896
More like people
are really looking at her
1035
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,448
and watching her.
And I wanted to get
1036
01:03:28,551 --> 01:03:30,206
a lot of faces in and so on.
1037
01:03:30,310 --> 01:03:32,689
And then she was able
1038
01:03:32,793 --> 01:03:34,448
to create that for me.
1039
01:03:41,586 --> 01:03:45,068
- The cameraperson is confined
to what they see and hear,
1040
01:03:45,172 --> 01:03:47,275
I'm looking
at the broader horizon,
1041
01:03:47,379 --> 01:03:49,862
I'm seeing what's happening
outside the frame,
1042
01:03:49,965 --> 01:03:53,793
and I'm directing them
to the things I want to see.
1043
01:03:53,896 --> 01:03:56,344
And with a really good
cameraperson -
1044
01:03:56,448 --> 01:03:58,827
and I've had
very good relationships
1045
01:03:58,931 --> 01:04:00,965
with very, very good people -
1046
01:04:01,068 --> 01:04:04,344
it becomes a tango,
it becomes a dance.
1047
01:04:04,448 --> 01:04:08,172
You know, you're whispering
in their ear that, really,
1048
01:04:08,275 --> 01:04:10,103
if they'll just go
a little longer
1049
01:04:10,206 --> 01:04:12,620
and pan a little to the right,
you know,
1050
01:04:12,724 --> 01:04:14,586
that's really
where I want to be,
1051
01:04:14,689 --> 01:04:16,241
and they'll find
two faces there.
1052
01:04:16,344 --> 01:04:18,517
And, you know...
So it's... it's a process
1053
01:04:18,620 --> 01:04:19,827
of literally directing the shot.
1054
01:04:19,931 --> 01:04:22,931
And so that's a very important
component for me as well,
1055
01:04:23,034 --> 01:04:24,586
the visual sense.
1056
01:04:36,758 --> 01:04:40,482
- For Bones of the Forest,
Heather and I were trying
1057
01:04:40,586 --> 01:04:42,758
to give you
an experiential sense
1058
01:04:42,862 --> 01:04:44,689
of the beauty and grandeur
1059
01:04:44,793 --> 01:04:47,241
and subtlety
of the old-growth forest.
1060
01:04:47,344 --> 01:04:49,793
So you could actually
feel for yourself
1061
01:04:49,896 --> 01:04:52,172
how important they were to save.
1062
01:04:54,517 --> 01:04:56,310
And in order
to express that fully,
1063
01:04:56,413 --> 01:05:00,000
it seemed that we needed
to go outside the usual palette
1064
01:05:00,103 --> 01:05:02,137
of just solid,
standard nature shots.
1065
01:05:02,241 --> 01:05:04,862
You know, we wanted
to actually show you
1066
01:05:04,965 --> 01:05:08,344
the time of the forest,
which has its own pace.
1067
01:05:08,448 --> 01:05:11,103
So time-lapse photography
was part of that.
1068
01:05:12,482 --> 01:05:14,034
It's not eye candy.
1069
01:05:14,137 --> 01:05:16,379
It's not just special effects.
It's really about trying
1070
01:05:16,482 --> 01:05:18,965
to break through
patterned thinking
1071
01:05:19,068 --> 01:05:21,758
and allow us a fresh perspective
on something.
1072
01:05:28,586 --> 01:05:31,724
- I do think
that not nearly enough emphasis
1073
01:05:31,827 --> 01:05:34,965
is put on the visual side
of filmmaking,
1074
01:05:35,068 --> 01:05:36,137
of documentary filmmaking.
1075
01:05:36,241 --> 01:05:38,482
Because the story
is so important,
1076
01:05:38,586 --> 01:05:41,758
and the people who tend
to make documentaries
1077
01:05:41,862 --> 01:05:43,724
are... are... are, I mean,
1078
01:05:43,827 --> 01:05:46,482
they're the high priests
of that issue,
1079
01:05:46,586 --> 01:05:51,275
and they're just so swept up
by the rightness of the issue
1080
01:05:51,379 --> 01:05:54,827
that they forget
that they gotta tell a story.
1081
01:05:54,931 --> 01:05:56,655
And they gotta tell a story
to people
1082
01:05:56,758 --> 01:05:59,655
who don't care nearly as much
about this subject as they do.
1083
01:06:03,689 --> 01:06:06,206
- On the one hand,
many of my colleagues
1084
01:06:06,310 --> 01:06:08,793
were working to...
- I was really, really careful
1085
01:06:08,896 --> 01:06:10,862
about where I filmed
those people
1086
01:06:10,965 --> 01:06:12,413
and when I filmed them.
1087
01:06:12,517 --> 01:06:16,965
And I had spent so much time
at the UN building in New York,
1088
01:06:17,068 --> 01:06:19,655
that I knew
at 4:00 in the afternoon
1089
01:06:19,758 --> 01:06:21,655
on a certain kind
of weather day,
1090
01:06:21,758 --> 01:06:26,034
if I put Meg in this room there,
the light would be good on her.
1091
01:06:26,137 --> 01:06:28,655
And I would only film her
at that time,
1092
01:06:28,758 --> 01:06:31,034
because I knew
she was gonna give me
1093
01:06:31,137 --> 01:06:32,448
the same kind of material,
1094
01:06:32,551 --> 01:06:35,310
whether we filmed her
at 8:00 in the morning
1095
01:06:35,413 --> 01:06:38,000
or 4:00 at night
in this better light,
1096
01:06:38,103 --> 01:06:39,724
so why not make the effort
1097
01:06:39,827 --> 01:06:42,413
to film it
when the light is just right?
1098
01:06:42,517 --> 01:06:44,793
- ... because you felt,
what am I doing wrong,
1099
01:06:44,896 --> 01:06:47,724
that I'm not being able
to convince these member states
1100
01:06:47,827 --> 01:06:50,241
that they need
to provide the troops necessary
1101
01:06:50,344 --> 01:06:51,724
to save these lives?
1102
01:06:51,827 --> 01:06:55,931
- You're presenting a palette
of colours for the editor,
1103
01:06:56,034 --> 01:07:00,517
so that he or she
can really edit with pacing
1104
01:07:00,620 --> 01:07:04,310
and with the abstract
rather than the literal.
1105
01:07:04,413 --> 01:07:08,275
And then you're really...
then you're really storytelling.
1106
01:07:10,931 --> 01:07:13,862
There's one shot
in A Place Called Chiapas -
1107
01:07:13,965 --> 01:07:17,103
and it's done by a wonderful
Mexican cinematographer
1108
01:07:17,206 --> 01:07:19,413
by the name of Eduardo Herrera.
1109
01:07:19,517 --> 01:07:21,448
Marcos says
the Zapatista movement
1110
01:07:21,551 --> 01:07:24,655
is, in fact,
more about ideas than bullets...
1111
01:07:24,758 --> 01:07:29,379
The entire press core is parked
on the edge of the river bank,
1112
01:07:29,482 --> 01:07:32,586
and where does Eduardo
put himself and his camera?
1113
01:07:32,689 --> 01:07:35,172
Right in the middle
of the river.
1114
01:07:35,275 --> 01:07:37,620
He swings
to reveal 50 photographers.
1115
01:07:37,724 --> 01:07:40,000
And so there's a huge payoff!
1116
01:07:40,103 --> 01:07:43,241
There's a beginning,
a middle and an end
1117
01:07:43,344 --> 01:07:46,482
and a sense of humour
to the shot.
1118
01:07:46,586 --> 01:07:50,758
There's a place for great art
in all of this.
1119
01:08:00,413 --> 01:08:03,206
- I read this book -
about two men on a mountain -
1120
01:08:03,310 --> 01:08:05,724
and I said, "This is
such a wonderful subject
1121
01:08:05,827 --> 01:08:09,068
for a documentary,
but how the hell do you do it?"
1122
01:08:09,172 --> 01:08:11,344
You couldn't make that story
as a fiction film either.
1123
01:08:11,448 --> 01:08:12,965
People have been trying
for many years.
1124
01:08:13,068 --> 01:08:14,620
Tom Cruise, for instance,
had the rights.
1125
01:08:14,724 --> 01:08:16,172
Lots of different people
had the rights.
1126
01:08:16,275 --> 01:08:18,862
And nobody had managed to make
a fiction film out of it,
1127
01:08:18,965 --> 01:08:20,172
because, again,
it's all internal.
1128
01:08:20,275 --> 01:08:22,724
And documentary
is wonderful for the internal,
1129
01:08:22,827 --> 01:08:26,689
because people love to talk
in a documentary, so I thought:
1130
01:08:26,793 --> 01:08:29,862
The only way to do this
is to combine
1131
01:08:29,965 --> 01:08:32,827
some elements of drama
with elements of documentary.
1132
01:08:32,931 --> 01:08:35,965
But I was so nervous
about doing that.
1133
01:08:42,379 --> 01:08:43,862
That was the real challenge.
1134
01:08:43,965 --> 01:08:47,103
How do you get reconstruction
that matches up to reality,
1135
01:08:47,206 --> 01:08:50,551
especially matches up
to this extraordinary story?
1136
01:08:52,965 --> 01:08:57,448
- This pain just came flooding
down my thigh and my knee.
1137
01:08:57,551 --> 01:09:00,137
It was very, very, very painful.
1138
01:09:03,172 --> 01:09:04,862
- The re-enactment...
1139
01:09:04,965 --> 01:09:07,827
is not re-enacting anything.
1140
01:09:07,931 --> 01:09:11,689
It's there to make you think
about reality,
1141
01:09:11,793 --> 01:09:15,068
about what we take
to be reality,
1142
01:09:15,172 --> 01:09:17,413
what we think is reality,
1143
01:09:17,517 --> 01:09:19,793
what claims to be reality.
1144
01:09:19,896 --> 01:09:22,482
- Because the whole time
we're screwing around
1145
01:09:22,586 --> 01:09:26,103
and not doing the damn job,
Americans are dying.
1146
01:09:26,206 --> 01:09:27,931
- Standard Operating Procedure
1147
01:09:28,034 --> 01:09:31,862
is a movie
with three ingredients.
1148
01:09:31,965 --> 01:09:35,344
One of them is interviews
with real people.
1149
01:09:35,448 --> 01:09:37,551
The second ingredient
is the photographs.
1150
01:09:38,965 --> 01:09:42,689
The photographs
that were taken at Abu Ghraib
1151
01:09:42,793 --> 01:09:44,689
in the fall of 2003.
1152
01:09:44,793 --> 01:09:46,586
And the third element...
1153
01:09:46,689 --> 01:09:48,689
is re-enacted material.
1154
01:09:48,793 --> 01:09:50,896
Bits and pieces, detail.
1155
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,551
I like going after odd details.
1156
01:09:53,655 --> 01:09:55,310
- ... with wires on his fingers
1157
01:09:55,413 --> 01:09:58,896
and he was told
he would be electrocuted
1158
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:01,620
if he fell off.
1159
01:10:01,724 --> 01:10:03,827
- And those are constructed.
1160
01:10:03,931 --> 01:10:08,275
But underneath all of it
is this pursuit of some truth.
1161
01:10:08,379 --> 01:10:11,517
- ... I mean, that would
keep anybody awake,
1162
01:10:11,620 --> 01:10:15,344
so it was part
of the sleep plan.
1163
01:10:15,448 --> 01:10:20,000
- When you open your newspaper
or you hear a news report,
1164
01:10:20,103 --> 01:10:22,000
you just get the facts.
1165
01:10:22,103 --> 01:10:25,275
And the way in which things
actually happen
1166
01:10:25,379 --> 01:10:27,448
is very complicated
and circumstantial.
1167
01:10:27,551 --> 01:10:31,068
And it comes out
of so many different influences.
1168
01:10:31,172 --> 01:10:35,310
And I think in a film
like Battle for Haditha,
1169
01:10:35,413 --> 01:10:38,275
you try and re-create all that
1170
01:10:38,379 --> 01:10:40,103
using ex-marines,
1171
01:10:40,206 --> 01:10:44,206
using Iraqi refugees.
1172
01:10:44,310 --> 01:10:46,482
It's very much based on research
1173
01:10:46,586 --> 01:10:49,379
that one would've done
for documentary...
1174
01:10:51,448 --> 01:10:53,896
... with a pretty defined
structure.
1175
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:57,034
Very little dialogue
actually written out,
1176
01:10:57,137 --> 01:10:59,241
and allowing the real people
1177
01:10:59,344 --> 01:11:02,413
to bring themselves
to those roles.
1178
01:11:05,344 --> 01:11:07,724
So you create many layers,
hopefully, of understanding
1179
01:11:07,827 --> 01:11:10,275
that you don't get
from the news reports
1180
01:11:10,379 --> 01:11:11,655
and other media.
1181
01:11:11,758 --> 01:11:14,103
- In the wrong hands,
that's quite dangerous,
1182
01:11:14,206 --> 01:11:17,206
which is when you re-create
with real people
1183
01:11:17,310 --> 01:11:20,344
who come with all that sort
of extraordinary behaviour
1184
01:11:20,448 --> 01:11:22,793
when people
have been in a situation.
1185
01:11:22,896 --> 01:11:25,517
They know how to behave.
And, I mean,
1186
01:11:25,620 --> 01:11:28,310
I think Battle for Haditha
is absolutely brilliant,
1187
01:11:28,413 --> 01:11:31,413
and I think: Thank God
it's Nick doing it.
1188
01:11:31,517 --> 01:11:33,862
Because as a technique,
it's quite dangerous
1189
01:11:33,965 --> 01:11:36,724
to re-create reality,
because it's so seductive.
1190
01:11:36,827 --> 01:11:39,758
You really, truly believe
that is what happened.
1191
01:11:44,724 --> 01:11:46,620
If reality programs
are borrowing
1192
01:11:46,724 --> 01:11:48,517
the sexy packaging of fiction
1193
01:11:48,620 --> 01:11:50,965
and fiction is borrowing
the immediacy and excitement
1194
01:11:51,068 --> 01:11:53,379
of documentary
and news as we know it -
1195
01:11:53,482 --> 01:11:55,206
I don't know
where that's going -
1196
01:11:55,310 --> 01:11:57,379
then it's so confusing
for people to know
1197
01:11:57,482 --> 01:11:59,517
what is or isn't truthful
in the end,
1198
01:11:59,620 --> 01:12:00,724
and what is whose view,
1199
01:12:00,827 --> 01:12:02,517
and what actually happened
or didn't.
1200
01:12:02,620 --> 01:12:05,448
And I just think it's something
we should be careful of,
1201
01:12:05,551 --> 01:12:07,862
and just sort of speak more
about the fact
1202
01:12:07,965 --> 01:12:09,793
that there is
this real crossover.
1203
01:12:51,689 --> 01:12:54,965
- For me, the distinction
between feature films -
1204
01:12:55,068 --> 01:12:58,310
I mean narrative feature films -
and documentaries
1205
01:12:58,413 --> 01:13:00,172
doesn't exist that much.
1206
01:13:00,275 --> 01:13:02,689
For me, it's all movies.
1207
01:13:02,793 --> 01:13:05,689
And the borderline
is quite often blurred...
1208
01:13:11,862 --> 01:13:14,344
In documentaries,
I keep inventing,
1209
01:13:14,448 --> 01:13:16,931
I keep using my fantasy.
1210
01:13:17,034 --> 01:13:18,896
I invent dreams.
1211
01:14:24,137 --> 01:14:26,241
- I think that sound
is like the heartbeat of a film.
1212
01:14:26,344 --> 01:14:28,103
If the sound isn't good,
then the film's thin.
1213
01:14:28,206 --> 01:14:30,655
You know, the sound is where
you get the emotion of a film.
1214
01:14:30,758 --> 01:14:33,034
With Hold Me Tight, Let Me Go,
1215
01:14:33,137 --> 01:14:36,724
the classrooms are sonoisy
and you look at it
1216
01:14:36,827 --> 01:14:39,758
and you don't maybe appreciate
what Mary's done.
1217
01:14:41,448 --> 01:14:43,068
- Are you disappointed?
1218
01:14:44,413 --> 01:14:45,793
Well done.
1219
01:14:45,896 --> 01:14:49,172
- Because her sound's so good,
people just accept it.
1220
01:14:49,275 --> 01:14:51,068
- Don't hurt other people
because you're cross or sad.
1221
01:14:51,172 --> 01:14:52,379
- You can hear everything
everybody's saying.
1222
01:14:52,482 --> 01:14:54,103
They're all in different sides
of the room,
1223
01:14:54,206 --> 01:14:55,931
there's all these kids
screaming in the room
1224
01:14:56,034 --> 01:14:57,310
at the same time,
1225
01:14:57,413 --> 01:14:58,896
but you can hear everything
really, truly.
1226
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,448
The film would be unwatchable
if it hadn't been for Mary.
1227
01:15:01,551 --> 01:15:04,586
- It's okay to feel like that.
But you need to let us help you.
1228
01:15:04,689 --> 01:15:06,689
That's why we're here.
- I'll twist your arm off.
1229
01:15:06,793 --> 01:15:09,689
- You don't need to do that...
- And they have to be so strong.
1230
01:15:09,793 --> 01:15:14,241
I mean, she's kind of, you know,
like a ballet dancer,
1231
01:15:14,344 --> 01:15:16,793
getting close to everybody,
following everything,
1232
01:15:16,896 --> 01:15:18,862
watching me,
we're working together...
1233
01:15:18,965 --> 01:15:21,862
It's a whole skill, you know,
which...
1234
01:15:21,965 --> 01:15:25,275
which people don't often notice.
- Alex, in a mainstream school,
1235
01:15:25,379 --> 01:15:29,137
you can't be under the table
all the time. Can you?
1236
01:15:29,241 --> 01:15:32,758
- I wouldn't do that.
I never used to do that
1237
01:15:32,862 --> 01:15:35,689
in the last two schools
I went to.
1238
01:15:35,793 --> 01:15:39,103
- One of the things
that's really an error,
1239
01:15:39,206 --> 01:15:42,620
in the way
things are going these days,
1240
01:15:42,724 --> 01:15:44,689
is that people actually think
1241
01:15:44,793 --> 01:15:47,310
that a sound recordist
is disposable.
1242
01:15:47,413 --> 01:15:50,724
And that you can do it yourself,
1243
01:15:50,827 --> 01:15:55,000
or your poor cameraperson,
who is supposed to be framing
1244
01:15:55,103 --> 01:16:00,206
and making sure that the world
is in focus and lit properly,
1245
01:16:00,310 --> 01:16:02,758
is supposed to take this on,
1246
01:16:02,862 --> 01:16:06,034
or - God forbid! -
the director do it.
1247
01:16:07,517 --> 01:16:09,413
- This is an unlawful assembly.
1248
01:16:09,517 --> 01:16:12,068
All persons...
1249
01:16:12,172 --> 01:16:13,758
... whether on the streets,
the sidewalks,
1250
01:16:13,862 --> 01:16:15,689
or in the doorways,
you must disperse,
1251
01:16:15,793 --> 01:16:18,103
or you will be arrested!
1252
01:16:23,379 --> 01:16:26,068
- When we start off
with an awareness of sound
1253
01:16:26,172 --> 01:16:28,586
as an important aspect
of the overall film
1254
01:16:28,689 --> 01:16:31,000
and leave space for it
and anticipate it
1255
01:16:31,103 --> 01:16:33,586
and work it in
while we're picture editing,
1256
01:16:33,689 --> 01:16:36,448
the marriage of the two
can become quite profound
1257
01:16:36,551 --> 01:16:39,206
and can move us
to much deeper places.
1258
01:16:44,586 --> 01:16:47,000
You can tell
another level of the story,
1259
01:16:47,103 --> 01:16:49,275
and sound takes us
to deep places
1260
01:16:49,379 --> 01:16:51,862
in a way that scent does,
for example.
1261
01:16:51,965 --> 01:16:53,517
Sound triggers emotions,
1262
01:16:53,620 --> 01:16:55,000
sound triggers memory.
1263
01:16:55,103 --> 01:16:59,379
So we can really hit people
at a deep level with sound.
1264
01:17:07,310 --> 01:17:11,448
- One of my favourite pieces
of sound in Touching the Void
1265
01:17:11,551 --> 01:17:13,655
is the sound of the crevasses.
1266
01:17:21,586 --> 01:17:22,965
It should be something
that's scary,
1267
01:17:23,068 --> 01:17:26,758
but something that also has
a human tone to it.
1268
01:17:31,793 --> 01:17:34,551
We played around
with all these different sounds.
1269
01:17:34,655 --> 01:17:36,448
Eventually, one day,
the sound editor said, "Yeah,
1270
01:17:36,551 --> 01:17:38,689
"I've got this great sound
for you, listen to this.
1271
01:17:38,793 --> 01:17:40,758
This is the underlying sound
for the crevasses."
1272
01:17:40,862 --> 01:17:42,724
He played it to me
and I thought:
1273
01:17:42,827 --> 01:17:44,551
Wow, that's very spooky.
"What is it?"
1274
01:17:44,655 --> 01:17:46,689
He said, "That's the sound
of a leopard roaring
1275
01:17:46,793 --> 01:17:49,000
slowed down 50 times."
1276
01:17:49,103 --> 01:17:52,379
So it was this wonderful
animal sound,
1277
01:17:52,482 --> 01:17:55,655
but it felt so deep and profound
1278
01:17:55,758 --> 01:17:57,586
and kind of frightening,
1279
01:17:57,689 --> 01:17:59,586
but mournful at the same time.
1280
01:18:08,068 --> 01:18:12,724
- I knew before we went to China
that I wanted the design
1281
01:18:12,827 --> 01:18:15,482
to emerge
out of the industrial soundscape
1282
01:18:15,586 --> 01:18:18,068
that we were going
to be immersed in.
1283
01:18:18,172 --> 01:18:21,172
So we gathered an enormous
amount of wild sound.
1284
01:18:24,448 --> 01:18:28,310
And I wanted the density
of that industrial soundscape
1285
01:18:28,413 --> 01:18:30,896
to be apparent in the film,
1286
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:32,896
but also that sometimes
melody or rhythm
1287
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:34,275
would emerge
from that soundscape
1288
01:18:34,379 --> 01:18:36,275
and you couldn't tell -
Am I hearing?
1289
01:18:36,379 --> 01:18:38,827
Is this music,
or is it just, you know,
1290
01:18:38,931 --> 01:18:40,793
the rhythm of some hammer
or machine?
1291
01:18:40,896 --> 01:18:43,551
And then it would go back down
into that soundscape
1292
01:18:43,655 --> 01:18:45,827
and come out
and go down without ever -
1293
01:18:45,931 --> 01:18:50,241
only a few times emerging
as a clear, distinct element
1294
01:18:50,344 --> 01:18:52,103
before subsuming itself
1295
01:18:52,206 --> 01:18:55,206
back down into the sound.
1296
01:19:57,793 --> 01:20:00,206
- I really, uh... love music,
1297
01:20:00,310 --> 01:20:03,827
and I think
more and more documentaries
1298
01:20:03,931 --> 01:20:05,379
are starting to think
1299
01:20:05,482 --> 01:20:09,103
that you don't have
to be purist about it,
1300
01:20:09,206 --> 01:20:12,758
that you can, like all
other aspects of cinema,
1301
01:20:12,862 --> 01:20:15,620
that audiences
really need an aural-scape,
1302
01:20:15,724 --> 01:20:17,517
as well as a visual-scape.
1303
01:20:31,241 --> 01:20:32,689
- I don't like music...
1304
01:20:32,793 --> 01:20:36,137
that is supposed
to tell you what to think.
1305
01:20:36,241 --> 01:20:39,620
But I do like music
that creates a bed
1306
01:20:39,724 --> 01:20:41,448
where things are driven forward.
1307
01:20:41,551 --> 01:20:44,172
The soundtrack
to The Thin Blue Lineis,
1308
01:20:44,275 --> 01:20:48,241
I think, one of the best things
that Philip has ever done.
1309
01:20:48,344 --> 01:20:50,862
It is essential to the movie.
1310
01:20:50,965 --> 01:20:53,172
- ... why did I meet this kid?
I don't know.
1311
01:20:53,275 --> 01:20:56,724
Why did I run out of gas
at that time? I don't know.
1312
01:20:56,827 --> 01:20:58,172
But it happened, it happened.
1313
01:21:03,862 --> 01:21:08,068
- If this is
a non-fiction film noir,
1314
01:21:08,172 --> 01:21:09,655
that idea of inexorability,
1315
01:21:09,758 --> 01:21:13,724
the idea of being trapped
in a web of fate,
1316
01:21:13,827 --> 01:21:17,103
those ideas are really...
1317
01:21:17,206 --> 01:21:20,448
driven home by the soundtrack,
1318
01:21:20,551 --> 01:21:23,965
by the Philip Glass score.
1319
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:29,689
- Music is an integral element
of storytelling,
1320
01:22:29,793 --> 01:22:33,103
of changing
and guiding our perspectives,
1321
01:22:33,206 --> 01:22:37,068
our emotional perspectives,
but not only emotional.
1322
01:22:37,172 --> 01:22:40,586
It gives new perspectives,
new insights,
1323
01:22:40,689 --> 01:22:43,689
a different kind of vision.
1324
01:24:06,620 --> 01:24:08,862
- The music creates
unifying shape.
1325
01:24:11,275 --> 01:24:14,862
But a part of sound, of course,
is narration.
1326
01:24:14,965 --> 01:24:16,689
And I think
1327
01:24:16,793 --> 01:24:19,482
it's a phenomenally powerful
element.
1328
01:24:19,586 --> 01:24:22,758
Uh, it's... it's the voice
of a storyteller.
1329
01:24:22,862 --> 01:24:26,793
And what could be wrong
with being told a story?
1330
01:24:26,896 --> 01:24:30,068
- Narration in documentary films
1331
01:24:30,172 --> 01:24:35,206
sometimes
is a very beautiful element,
1332
01:24:35,310 --> 01:24:37,655
and most times
1333
01:24:37,758 --> 01:24:40,137
it's a... prosthesis.
1334
01:24:40,241 --> 01:24:41,689
It's like crutches,
you know,
1335
01:24:41,793 --> 01:24:45,344
it's like to help tell a story
1336
01:24:45,448 --> 01:24:48,482
without having the images,
you know.
1337
01:24:48,586 --> 01:24:50,137
Because you don't have
the images,
1338
01:24:50,241 --> 01:24:52,137
so you have to tell
what's happening,
1339
01:24:52,241 --> 01:24:53,448
instead of showing.
1340
01:24:53,551 --> 01:24:55,896
And showing is always better
than telling, you know.
1341
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:58,862
- I do get annoyed
when I hear people say,
1342
01:24:58,965 --> 01:25:00,862
"Oh, we don't want narration."
1343
01:25:00,965 --> 01:25:03,413
Or they hire you
as a narration writer
1344
01:25:03,517 --> 01:25:06,344
and they say, "Well,
we didn't really want narration,
1345
01:25:06,448 --> 01:25:08,517
"but we wanted to bring you in
1346
01:25:08,620 --> 01:25:11,517
because we've got some problems
in the storytelling."
1347
01:25:11,620 --> 01:25:12,965
Well, then, don't use narration.
1348
01:25:13,068 --> 01:25:15,620
If you don't like it,
don't use it.
1349
01:25:15,724 --> 01:25:17,896
But if you use it, love it.
1350
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:19,413
And it can be beautiful.
1351
01:25:19,517 --> 01:25:21,862
It can be the invocation
to a dream.
1352
01:25:25,862 --> 01:25:28,310
- I was always fascinated
by air power,
1353
01:25:28,413 --> 01:25:32,103
like so many other boys,
dreaming of being an RAF pilot.
1354
01:25:32,206 --> 01:25:35,241
Playing in the rubble
of bombed-out buildings.
1355
01:25:35,344 --> 01:25:37,413
Secretly sorry I missed the war.
1356
01:25:37,517 --> 01:25:40,275
- I think of narration
1357
01:25:40,379 --> 01:25:42,551
as being a voice in your ear
1358
01:25:42,655 --> 01:25:45,793
who's telling you a story,
1359
01:25:45,896 --> 01:25:49,241
and which is a very different
way to think of it
1360
01:25:49,344 --> 01:25:52,758
than a booming voice of God
or from a public podium.
1361
01:25:52,862 --> 01:25:55,586
- We've all been targets
ever since.
1362
01:25:58,517 --> 01:26:01,793
This is a film
about bombing people.
1363
01:26:01,896 --> 01:26:05,827
How it got started,
how it continues,
1364
01:26:05,931 --> 01:26:09,068
about what's right and wrong
in war.
1365
01:26:10,586 --> 01:26:12,758
- I will write things
and then will start
1366
01:26:12,862 --> 01:26:14,793
to assemble scenes,
write to the scenes,
1367
01:26:14,896 --> 01:26:17,000
and then will go
the other way around.
1368
01:26:17,103 --> 01:26:19,862
We'll use the writing
as a guide to the scenes.
1369
01:26:19,965 --> 01:26:21,551
It's a dance back and forth.
1370
01:26:26,137 --> 01:26:29,517
- I think editing
is a really underrated skill.
1371
01:26:29,620 --> 01:26:31,310
- It's like a puzzle.
- This is important,
1372
01:26:31,413 --> 01:26:33,310
that's important, that's
important, throw away the rest.
1373
01:26:33,413 --> 01:26:35,827
- Creating a story
1374
01:26:35,931 --> 01:26:37,551
where there really is no story.
1375
01:26:37,655 --> 01:26:41,448
- I've never, ever trusted
the process.
1376
01:26:41,551 --> 01:26:43,344
I sit in the edit
absolutely all the time.
1377
01:26:43,448 --> 01:26:46,000
- But then you say, "Well,
what does that cutaway do?"
1378
01:26:46,103 --> 01:26:48,034
- There's a kind of mind game.
1379
01:26:48,137 --> 01:26:49,896
- And that's one definition
of a lie.
1380
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:52,931
- Endings are tricky...
- The shaping and sculpting...
1381
01:26:53,034 --> 01:26:53,896
- Weaving together...
1382
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:55,586
- Vous coupez,
vous l'arrangez...
1383
01:26:55,689 --> 01:26:57,655
- And it's sometimes
extremely painful...
1384
01:26:57,758 --> 01:27:00,379
- You have to massage
the material over and over
1385
01:27:00,482 --> 01:27:03,172
over and over again,
until it looks so simple
1386
01:27:03,275 --> 01:27:06,379
that everybody will say,
"What took you so long?"
1387
01:27:07,896 --> 01:27:10,172
- It's the despair, I guess,
I think you go through
1388
01:27:10,275 --> 01:27:11,827
almost every time
you make a documentary:
1389
01:27:11,931 --> 01:27:13,517
you come back
and see your rushes
1390
01:27:13,620 --> 01:27:15,172
and they seem
such poor, pathetic things,
1391
01:27:15,275 --> 01:27:17,896
and you think: This isn't
the film I wanted to make.
1392
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:19,482
And then you have to figure out,
1393
01:27:19,586 --> 01:27:21,379
well, what is the film that's
in there?
1394
01:27:21,482 --> 01:27:23,344
What's speaking to you
about these rushes here?
1395
01:27:23,448 --> 01:27:26,793
- The biggest problem
you find in the cutting room
1396
01:27:26,896 --> 01:27:29,827
is that that usually,
the creator, the director,
1397
01:27:29,931 --> 01:27:33,172
is not willing to accept
that shadow, that gap,
1398
01:27:33,275 --> 01:27:36,620
between their intentions and
what the material gives them.
1399
01:27:36,724 --> 01:27:38,793
- Your allegiance
eventually transfers
1400
01:27:38,896 --> 01:27:42,103
from your memory of the event
1401
01:27:42,206 --> 01:27:45,758
to what you have captured
on film,
1402
01:27:45,862 --> 01:27:49,137
and once that transfer
takes place,
1403
01:27:49,241 --> 01:27:50,862
that's when editing
really starts to happen.
1404
01:27:50,965 --> 01:27:52,103
When you know: Okay,
1405
01:27:52,206 --> 01:27:54,586
this is the finite universe
I have to deal with.
1406
01:28:18,448 --> 01:28:20,000
- There's times
when you're working on something
1407
01:28:20,103 --> 01:28:22,034
and you think:
Gosh, it would've been amazing
1408
01:28:22,137 --> 01:28:25,275
if I had known that first.
And that's what I try to do,
1409
01:28:25,379 --> 01:28:27,724
in the film, is try to create
the ideal journey
1410
01:28:27,827 --> 01:28:29,689
and replicate those moments
that were really memorable
1411
01:28:29,793 --> 01:28:31,551
along the way
of making the film.
1412
01:28:31,655 --> 01:28:34,793
- You look at the elements
that you've got,
1413
01:28:34,896 --> 01:28:37,206
and you figure out, you know,
1414
01:28:37,310 --> 01:28:41,310
how to literally form a braid
out of those elements
1415
01:28:41,413 --> 01:28:45,000
that will allow each strand
to inform the other,
1416
01:28:45,103 --> 01:28:48,344
and to keep re-engaging
the audience's interest
1417
01:28:48,448 --> 01:28:50,034
in the moment.
1418
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:53,310
- When we first met,
1419
01:28:53,413 --> 01:28:57,379
you know, the age difference
was a big problem for me...
1420
01:28:57,482 --> 01:29:01,965
- You're interweaving material
to create a more complicated,
1421
01:29:02,068 --> 01:29:05,206
and yet enlightening, result.
- Then Philip came into my life,
1422
01:29:05,310 --> 01:29:08,379
and I said to him - hopefully,
you'll edit this right out -
1423
01:29:08,482 --> 01:29:10,275
I said, "Great, I'm gonna fall
in love with you
1424
01:29:10,379 --> 01:29:12,275
and you're just gonna
to die on me?"
1425
01:29:12,379 --> 01:29:14,206
I mean, I was so callous!
1426
01:29:14,310 --> 01:29:16,724
But I just didn't want
anymore loss,
1427
01:29:16,827 --> 01:29:19,103
you know?
And he had lost...
1428
01:29:19,206 --> 01:29:21,586
- I don't think my films
1429
01:29:21,689 --> 01:29:24,655
are made in the cutting room.
1430
01:29:24,758 --> 01:29:29,379
I think the cutting room
is more a place
1431
01:29:29,482 --> 01:29:31,482
where you simplify material,
1432
01:29:31,586 --> 01:29:34,620
and you find themes
and arguments
1433
01:29:34,724 --> 01:29:37,206
that run through the material,
1434
01:29:37,310 --> 01:29:41,896
and clear, in a sense,
the brush from it,
1435
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:45,103
so that they become
more obvious.
1436
01:29:45,206 --> 01:29:46,517
- With The Peacekeepers,
1437
01:29:46,620 --> 01:29:49,655
there were so many different
ways to go with that film,
1438
01:29:49,758 --> 01:29:51,068
in the editing room,
1439
01:29:51,172 --> 01:29:54,000
that for the first couple
of months, we struggled,
1440
01:29:54,103 --> 01:29:57,103
because we were putting
way too much into it.
1441
01:29:57,206 --> 01:30:01,137
I mean, I had a whole history
of the Congo and Mbutu,
1442
01:30:01,241 --> 01:30:05,586
and how it got to this point
that there was a civil war,
1443
01:30:05,689 --> 01:30:07,310
and all of that stuff.
1444
01:30:07,413 --> 01:30:10,379
And in the end, nobody cared.
They didn't care.
1445
01:30:10,482 --> 01:30:12,931
They just cared about...
they cared about Meg.
1446
01:30:13,034 --> 01:30:15,103
- You may not want
to deal with them,
1447
01:30:15,206 --> 01:30:17,758
and they may have committed
all sorts of human-rights abuse,
1448
01:30:17,862 --> 01:30:19,758
but, unfortunately,
you have to deal with them,
1449
01:30:19,862 --> 01:30:21,586
because they're the ones
with the power.
1450
01:30:21,689 --> 01:30:24,413
- What do these military leaders
want?
1451
01:30:24,517 --> 01:30:28,689
- People need a human being
that can lead them
1452
01:30:28,793 --> 01:30:31,551
through a kind of political,
psychological,
1453
01:30:31,655 --> 01:30:32,862
logistical minefield.
1454
01:30:32,965 --> 01:30:35,965
And once Meg came on screen,
the film came alive.
1455
01:30:36,068 --> 01:30:39,689
And all of this other stuff
that we had thrown in there
1456
01:30:39,793 --> 01:30:43,827
about the history of the Congo
and how it got to this point,
1457
01:30:43,931 --> 01:30:44,896
people didn't care about.
1458
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:47,206
We couldn't make them
care about it.
1459
01:30:47,310 --> 01:30:50,724
- You have to be able
to dump very good footage
1460
01:30:50,827 --> 01:30:54,137
and not put it...
fit it in the film somehow.
1461
01:30:54,241 --> 01:30:56,586
Just dump it,
because it doesn't fit
1462
01:30:56,689 --> 01:30:58,517
into that movie,
that's it.
1463
01:31:12,965 --> 01:31:18,068
- This case is no more
and no longer about Kathleen.
1464
01:31:19,448 --> 01:31:21,517
The D.A. has to win.
That's it.
1465
01:31:21,620 --> 01:31:23,655
He doesn't care how
and, basically...
1466
01:31:23,758 --> 01:31:27,344
by the same token,
my lawyer, they want to win.
1467
01:31:27,448 --> 01:31:30,275
Truth is lost
in all of this now.
1468
01:31:30,379 --> 01:31:32,758
Truth is of no meaning
whatsoever...
1469
01:31:43,172 --> 01:31:45,413
- ... All he wants to do is win.
1470
01:31:45,517 --> 01:31:47,034
And I understand that!
1471
01:31:59,517 --> 01:32:02,241
- The film
is gonna reveal itself
1472
01:32:02,344 --> 01:32:07,344
out of the unexpected moments,
not out of what you planned,
1473
01:32:07,448 --> 01:32:11,448
not when you were working
with pencil and paper.
1474
01:32:11,551 --> 01:32:16,931
It's going to come out of things
that took you by surprise,
1475
01:32:17,034 --> 01:32:19,758
and that you maybe even forgot,
1476
01:32:19,862 --> 01:32:22,517
in the whole welter of shooting.
1477
01:32:26,862 --> 01:32:29,655
You put two things together
on the editing table,
1478
01:32:29,758 --> 01:32:33,172
and you're like,
"How is this possible?"
1479
01:32:33,275 --> 01:32:35,482
And then it's in front
of 1,000 people
1480
01:32:35,586 --> 01:32:36,931
and they all go, "Wow."
1481
01:32:42,137 --> 01:32:45,689
- I sometimes think of a movie
as a sausage casing,
1482
01:32:45,793 --> 01:32:47,448
and you're trying to ram
1483
01:32:47,551 --> 01:32:49,620
as much meat
into that sausage
1484
01:32:49,724 --> 01:32:52,724
as you possibly can,
but there are limits.
1485
01:32:54,586 --> 01:32:56,862
Then you have to stop.
1486
01:33:04,310 --> 01:33:06,068
There's a dream
1487
01:33:06,172 --> 01:33:08,724
of actually influencing
the world in some way,
1488
01:33:08,827 --> 01:33:11,068
righting some wrong,
1489
01:33:11,172 --> 01:33:13,310
correcting some evil...
1490
01:33:13,413 --> 01:33:17,413
It's the documentarian
as possible super hero.
1491
01:33:19,137 --> 01:33:23,620
You know,
the guy who fixes the bad stuff.
1492
01:33:25,172 --> 01:33:27,482
- The films that we make
are our teachers.
1493
01:33:27,586 --> 01:33:28,896
I mean, they're our teachers,
1494
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:31,517
and then we sort of surrender
to them.
1495
01:33:47,068 --> 01:33:49,379
- You know,
I often say to people
1496
01:33:49,482 --> 01:33:50,965
that the answer to life
1497
01:33:51,068 --> 01:33:52,551
is becoming
a documentary filmmaker.
1498
01:33:52,655 --> 01:33:55,551
If you want to solve
all your life's problems,
1499
01:33:55,655 --> 01:33:56,793
become a documentary filmmaker,
1500
01:33:56,896 --> 01:33:58,724
because
it offers you everything.
1501
01:34:01,586 --> 01:34:04,275
- If you look
at just the number of titles
1502
01:34:04,379 --> 01:34:05,862
that have been
playing theatrically,
1503
01:34:05,965 --> 01:34:07,758
that people
are really talking about,
1504
01:34:07,862 --> 01:34:09,689
the stylistic breadth
of those films
1505
01:34:09,793 --> 01:34:11,413
has really widened.
1506
01:34:11,517 --> 01:34:14,275
There's a lot more inventiveness
1507
01:34:14,379 --> 01:34:16,206
in terms of what's accepted.
1508
01:34:18,758 --> 01:34:21,000
- New types
of distribution systems
1509
01:34:21,103 --> 01:34:24,517
have been developed
with the advent of the Internet.
1510
01:34:24,620 --> 01:34:26,931
Everybody now literally
is a documentary filmmaker,
1511
01:34:27,034 --> 01:34:29,172
or anybody with a cell phone.
1512
01:34:31,275 --> 01:34:34,103
- I can't imagine
anything more important
1513
01:34:34,206 --> 01:34:35,586
than portraying -
1514
01:34:35,689 --> 01:34:37,517
in a very truthful,
authentic fashion -
1515
01:34:37,620 --> 01:34:40,137
what's really going on
in the world.
1516
01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:11,724
- I've been able
to be in so many situations
1517
01:35:11,827 --> 01:35:13,241
that are not part of my life.
1518
01:35:13,344 --> 01:35:15,413
Not only be there,
1519
01:35:15,517 --> 01:35:17,448
but have to make
some sense of it
1520
01:35:17,551 --> 01:35:19,862
for somebody else
who's not going to be there.
1521
01:35:19,965 --> 01:35:22,482
That I really love.
1522
01:35:22,586 --> 01:35:26,034
That's still as much fun to me
as it was day one.
1523
01:35:37,896 --> 01:35:41,068
CNST, Montreal
1524
01:36:07,172 --> 01:36:09,413
- Um, what was I gonna say?
1525
01:36:10,827 --> 01:36:12,931
- That's a complicated question.
1526
01:36:14,655 --> 01:36:16,758
- J'ai pas bien compris.
1527
01:36:40,103 --> 01:36:43,068
- Is there any water?
Is there any water around here?
1528
01:37:01,241 --> 01:37:03,448
- Thank you.
I like the lighting.
1529
01:37:22,068 --> 01:37:24,655
- Je crois qu'il y a une fin
de cassette qui s'annonce, non?
113624
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