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The Tower of London's Chapel of St.
Peter ad Vinicula
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Final resting place of Thomas
Cromwell, Anne Boleyn and Thomas More
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00:00:24,096 --> 00:00:26,962
Where better to discuss the
BBC Drama series: "Wolf Hall"
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00:00:27,684 --> 00:00:30,832
With it's Director, Peter Kosminsky
and star, Mark Rylance
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00:00:31,873 --> 00:00:35,367
This season has been such a massive
success and is sold all over the world
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With what do you
attribute its appeal
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You know, it's taken
us all by surprise
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We knew we were working, with
wonderful actors, a fantastic script
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00:00:47,307 --> 00:00:50,119
Extraordinary source material
- Hilary Mantel's novels
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00:00:51,331 --> 00:00:56,575
But, in the end it's a costume drama about
the Tudors and that's been done before
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00:00:57,361 --> 00:01:01,120
I don't know why it has gripped the
nation the way it appears to have done
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00:01:01,571 --> 00:01:03,411
It's been, for us, a big surprise
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00:01:04,736 --> 00:01:06,452
But, I mean that's a
winner for you Mark
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Because you've notoriously shied
away from television and film
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And, you know, what was it
about this that was different
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What drew you to this?
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I'd read the script before the book
actually to be honest with you
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My wife had read the
book and had loved it
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But I had been so busy that I
hadn't been able to do that
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So, I really took the
project on the script
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Which was a phenomenally
good script
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But, to be able to bring
a large book
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Two-books
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Down in the way he did
to these essential scenes
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I think it's extraordinary work
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And then the next big question
for me who was to direct it
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And once Peter adjusted his
plans then I was on board
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But I wasn't on board
until Peter was on board
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So, was this a kind
of act of persuasion
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Aah, we had a coffee together
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I definitely...
there were things I might have
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asked another director
that I didn't ask Peter
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00:02:01,799 --> 00:02:03,055
And a lot to learn
because you're not a man
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00:02:03,613 --> 00:02:05,818
for, as it were,
costume-drama; period-drama
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00:02:06,650 --> 00:02:08,223
You're absolutely not
that kind of director
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00:02:09,006 --> 00:02:11,321
Well I had a bad formative
experience Kirsty
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00:02:12,207 --> 00:02:14,239
I did an adaptation
for Wuthering Heights
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It was terrible, it wasn't
good and it sort've scarred me
39
00:02:18,238 --> 00:02:19,731
It didn't do bad
for Ralph Fiennes
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No, Ralph Fiennes did OK
41
00:02:21,925 --> 00:02:23,115
But, I thought, well
I can't do that
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That's not me
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00:02:24,986 --> 00:02:26,989
And when Mark and I had worked
together before it had been
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00:02:27,947 --> 00:02:29,791
on a contemporary piece
about the death of Dr. Dave Kelley
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The Government Inspector
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Mark played so beautifully
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But, when he asked me,
you know; I had been
48
00:02:38,387 --> 00:02:39,885
wanting to work with him
again, it had been 10 years
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00:02:40,657 --> 00:02:44,156
You don't want to work with
Mark Rylance that isn't right
50
00:02:45,294 --> 00:02:49,389
You want to work on something
that has enough of a range, and depth,
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00:02:49,885 --> 00:02:52,201
and intensity that allows him
to do what he does so brilliantly
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00:02:53,183 --> 00:02:57,553
And, this was such an opportunity
so it was hard to refuse
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00:02:59,269 --> 00:03:04,601
When you came to inhabit Cromwell,
what was your first thoughts
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00:03:05,343 --> 00:03:06,385
He's such a complex character
55
00:03:07,066 --> 00:03:09,803
But also, I was thinking that
you're quite a private person
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00:03:11,052 --> 00:03:14,054
And I think Cromwell per-force had
to be like that too, didn't he?
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00:03:15,177 --> 00:03:21,372
What comes to my mind is, I was very
struck by him being a run-away by age 14
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00:03:22,128 --> 00:03:27,731
And someone who learnt to survive on
the street in Europe at that time
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00:03:28,389 --> 00:03:34,188
Got involved in armies, then provisioning
armies, and then the rag trade
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00:03:35,035 --> 00:03:38,146
Was a rough way of speaking what
he did, but; and then banking
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00:03:38,735 --> 00:03:44,649
I know a wonderful poet down in Brixton
actually who came down from the North
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00:03:46,232 --> 00:03:51,450
Arrived at Kings Cross, lived rough for a
year or two in Soho with a gang of kids
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00:03:52,482 --> 00:03:55,293
Just fed themselves, you
know, by finding out where
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00:03:55,835 --> 00:03:57,745
the hotels dump their extra
food and stuff like that
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00:03:58,793 --> 00:04:00,091
And so, I thought of
people like that
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00:04:00,727 --> 00:04:02,668
They keep the cards they have
to play close to their chest
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00:04:03,634 --> 00:04:07,348
And I think that always struck
me that served Cromwell very
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00:04:08,370 --> 00:04:12,090
well as he moved into even more
dangerous powerful places
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00:04:13,433 --> 00:04:15,433
I think one of the questions
that we asked ourselves
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00:04:16,069 --> 00:04:20,696
It's easy to talk about a man who
comes from nothing to great power
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00:04:21,212 --> 00:04:22,775
But then stop and think
about that for a moment
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And think about the times
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This is like the first
person who ever did this
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00:04:28,976 --> 00:04:32,339
And you think, what was it
that Cromwell had that to
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00:04:33,067 --> 00:04:35,317
allow him to so capture
the attention of the King
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To so mesmerise society
that for those few short
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years, he was essentialy
the ruler of the land
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00:04:41,762 --> 00:04:45,161
He has to have been an incredibly
powerful, charismatic...
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00:04:45,776 --> 00:04:48,270
That is I think
is Mark's triumph
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Doing very little, he creates
this sense of fascination that
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you're wondering what he's
thinking, what's he going to say
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00:04:57,723 --> 00:05:00,934
You can do that so brilliantly with a
look, on obviously many occasions
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00:05:01,630 --> 00:05:05,352
But when he's looking at
Jane Seymour, what I
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00:05:05,911 --> 00:05:06,941
love is the audience has
to do the work too
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00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,933
What is he thinking? Is he thinking
that she is the next wife?
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You get a sense always that
he's living by his wits.
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00:05:16,532 --> 00:05:19,253
I watched a lot of films
before we began to film.
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I wanted to really try and see what
the great film actors were doing.
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I was particularly impressed
by Brad Pitt, in a film called
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"The Assassination of Jessie James"
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Where he does very, very little.
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00:05:33,319 --> 00:05:35,890
I just found myself
completely pulled into it.
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I've always admired
Robert Mitchum
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I really wanted to
dare to just think.
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Peter were very encouraging.
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Often, when you're acting you think
things you didn't prepare to think.
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They come flitting
across your mind
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As I look at Claire Foy, or
look at what Damian's doing
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00:06:00,183 --> 00:06:03,141
Sometimes it would be so fast the
thought, then he would come up to me
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00:06:03,687 --> 00:06:04,293
after a take and say
101
00:06:05,050 --> 00:06:06,092
"Oh I saw you were
thinking that weren't you"
102
00:06:06,689 --> 00:06:09,976
And I couldn't believe that
he had seen that thought.
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He's a very good observer
of what actors are doing.
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In fact, other director's don't do
this, he has someone else say "Action"
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Because, by that moment he's already
buried himself in the viewer
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And trying to connect with us
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I like that idea that you're
the director as observer,
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your work is sort've done to
a certain extent and you're observing
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Well my work is done, really.
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My work is done on the script
and in casting the actors.
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And if you're quite inexperienced,
and I was certainly guilty of this
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You sort've think well I
had better say something,
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because otherwise I'm not
really being the director
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But if you've got nothing to
contribute it's best to stay silent.
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One of the most important electric
relationships in the series is
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between Thomas More, whose over
there in the tower, and Thomas Cromwell
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Tell me how you two talked
about that relationship
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00:07:06,599 --> 00:07:09,070
I think we all have a part
of this, that's idealistic
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Our parents, or ourselves,
or the things we admire
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Raise ideals of how
our life should be
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And we all have a
part that's pragmatic
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And so, it was easy to feel I was
talking to my idealistic side
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00:07:29,089 --> 00:07:34,231
You know the drama expressed a
drum that goes on in each of us
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Whatever level of society you
live in, you've got that
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These two acted out at a very, very
high dangerous level of society
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I think that's why this story comes
round so often, as such a popular myth
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00:07:50,631 --> 00:07:56,420
Because it's something that happens
in many, many peoples lives.
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00:07:57,333 --> 00:08:00,590
If only one of them could
have got to Henry and Anne
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00:08:01,588 --> 00:08:06,004
with the benefit of what
we know and tell them
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00:08:06,666 --> 00:08:09,383
Look, you have given
birth to one of the
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00:08:09,978 --> 00:08:11,467
greatest sovereigns
this country will ever have
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And because of this
mindset at the time,
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00:08:15,792 --> 00:08:17,541
that only a man can
be a great King
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00:08:18,159 --> 00:08:19,740
You're going to
destroy your marriage,
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00:08:20,434 --> 00:08:21,900
This woman's going to die.
136
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It's all ridiculous.
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If you could change your
mindset and accept
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that a woman might be
a great sovereign
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00:08:30,177 --> 00:08:32,773
You should be the happiest
parents in the world right now.
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00:08:33,560 --> 00:08:36,724
From the Catholic point of view,
More is arguing...
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if you've had a child,
he's arguing for Mary of course
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Then you should accept that,
that is God's plan
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even if it seems
a difficult thing
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00:08:46,539 --> 00:08:46,614
And, from Cromwell's
point of view,
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he would have gone
in there and encouraged
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00:08:51,524 --> 00:08:52,792
from a pragmatic point of view
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You have a child.
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Why cause all this problem
trying to have another one.
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What is so great about the script,
and the way that it's realised
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00:09:01,103 --> 00:09:06,670
Is that, you're not looking at
it as history, you're in it
151
00:09:07,428 --> 00:09:09,504
Well she writes that, that's one
of the joys of reading the book
152
00:09:10,135 --> 00:09:12,861
And I would recommend, if you haven't
read the book and like the show
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00:09:13,718 --> 00:09:16,345
Then read the book. There's so
much more in it that's wonderful
154
00:09:18,928 --> 00:09:20,886
It takes a little while because
you have to get into it
155
00:09:21,462 --> 00:09:23,357
But then you suddenly have a
feelingl; I'm in the room with them
156
00:09:24,650 --> 00:09:25,707
It feels like I'm
there with them
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And not knowing the next move
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That's right
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00:09:29,527 --> 00:09:33,822
And I think maybe because she's made
it seem so unlike a historical novel
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00:09:35,878 --> 00:09:38,309
That's maybe why people
assume that her research,
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00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:40,855
or her work is reckless
or careless
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But she researched
for five years
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And so, I think the critics that you may
read of whether this is true or not
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00:09:49,124 --> 00:09:50,788
You have to remember that
she did a lot of work
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She didn't just come in and do a
popular version of this story
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00:09:55,089 --> 00:09:56,717
Of course, there's a lively
debate going on;
167
00:09:57,265 --> 00:10:00,372
particularly in the Twitter sphere
about our interpretation of Cromwell
168
00:10:01,522 --> 00:10:03,867
And some people feel this is
sort've horribly revisionist.
169
00:10:04,642 --> 00:10:05,802
The man was a
brute, and a cheat.
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00:10:07,354 --> 00:10:08,931
Very much his father's son.
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00:10:10,206 --> 00:10:14,849
And, I personally don't care two hoots.
I'm moderating my language.
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00:10:15,448 --> 00:10:16,822
Don't care two hoots about that.
173
00:10:17,869 --> 00:10:19,789
You know, this is
Hilary's vision.
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00:10:20,641 --> 00:10:22,862
And we have embraced it
and enjoyed embracing it.
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00:10:23,538 --> 00:10:27,473
I've had a great letter comparing
me to Alec Guinness’s character in
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00:10:28,024 --> 00:10:29,081
"The Bridge on the River Kwai"
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That in playing Cromwell, I built a very
good bridge, but forgot about the war.
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00:10:39,649 --> 00:10:43,607
I think that people are very
enamoured of Thomas More
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00:10:44,536 --> 00:10:48,408
and upset to see that
Utopian people have a shadow.
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00:10:49,612 --> 00:10:51,588
People forgetting the book
shares a wonderful Catholic man
181
00:10:52,258 --> 00:10:54,398
in a very good light,
Cardinal Wolsey
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With all the flexibility
183
00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:58,297
...and all the vainness as well
184
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,108
Yeah, and a love of food,
and of the world,
185
00:11:02,901 --> 00:11:06,161
rather than a desire to repress
and move away from the world
186
00:11:06,954 --> 00:11:12,166
But the portrayal of More
seems to be entirely what has
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00:11:12,757 --> 00:11:16,286
created this attack on Hilary Mantel
for being anti-Catholic
188
00:11:17,319 --> 00:11:19,795
Well, some of the attack
happened before episode four
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00:11:20,949 --> 00:11:22,306
and it's been a bit more
muted since then
190
00:11:23,358 --> 00:11:26,752
When you get into the long and
quite complex discussions,
191
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,071
particularly the two scenes in the
tower between Cromwell and More
192
00:11:31,183 --> 00:11:34,591
You start to see the
sophistication of the argument
193
00:11:36,104 --> 00:11:38,049
I was in my barge, to row
you back to Chelsea,
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00:11:38,671 --> 00:11:41,182
back to your garden,
your children. Back to Dame Ellis.
195
00:11:42,329 --> 00:11:44,680
Waiting to bear you
up to own bed.
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00:11:45,608 --> 00:11:48,875
We see this drama through Cromwell's eye
and we're left in absolutely no doubt
197
00:11:49,437 --> 00:11:51,978
that Cromwell has a huge
personal respect for More.
198
00:11:52,735 --> 00:11:53,820
That he'll do almost anything.
199
00:11:54,590 --> 00:11:58,179
He gets into the moment, probably one
of only two really difficult moments
200
00:11:58,791 --> 00:12:00,037
with the king where he says:
201
00:12:00,604 --> 00:12:02,258
"I'm really not sure we
can do this with More"
202
00:12:03,411 --> 00:12:05,071
I don't doubt his loyalty to Rome,
203
00:12:06,233 --> 00:12:09,826
nor his hatred of Your Majesty's
title as head of the church.
204
00:12:11,416 --> 00:12:14,037
However, legally our
case is slender.
205
00:12:16,609 --> 00:12:17,181
It won't be easy.
206
00:12:22,126 --> 00:12:23,454
Do I keep you for what's easy.
207
00:12:26,668 --> 00:12:29,975
You think I've promoted you for
the charm of your presence.
208
00:12:33,314 --> 00:12:34,864
I keep you because
you're a serpent.
209
00:12:38,907 --> 00:12:40,497
Do not be a viper in my bosom.
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00:12:47,985 --> 00:12:50,141
You know my decision.
Execute it.
211
00:12:52,330 --> 00:12:56,294
Cromwell, the ultimate pragmatist.
Thinks it's just such a waste.
212
00:12:57,833 --> 00:12:59,984
A waste of a great man and
a great intellect.
213
00:13:00,856 --> 00:13:04,846
And it's this debate between a man who
is entirely focused on the next life,
214
00:13:06,029 --> 00:13:10,048
who thinks if I do something like
that now, I will suffer in perpetuity
215
00:13:11,427 --> 00:13:12,880
And a man, who is
essentially worried
216
00:13:13,526 --> 00:13:16,055
about living this life,
not so focused on the next one.
217
00:13:16,868 --> 00:13:18,609
And that's what make this
complex and interesting.
218
00:13:19,361 --> 00:13:24,334
Damian Lewis as Henry VIII,
gives us this person
219
00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:29,344
who is capricious, entirely
dangerous, despotic.
220
00:13:30,909 --> 00:13:32,437
And in a sense he's a despot
that we can all understand,
221
00:13:33,321 --> 00:13:34,452
because he's like
any despot.
222
00:13:35,215 --> 00:13:37,374
I have great sympathy for
Damian's Henry and
223
00:13:37,936 --> 00:13:42,005
I'm just struck by the enormous pressure
on him after this period of civil war
224
00:13:42,787 --> 00:13:46,101
It's easy to forget, and I was talking
to Peter about this last night
225
00:13:46,912 --> 00:13:48,932
and saying you know,
eventually a nation like Iraq
226
00:13:49,719 --> 00:13:52,141
which is in such,
such violent difficulty now.
227
00:13:53,218 --> 00:13:54,623
Eventually a ruler
will come forward,
228
00:13:55,408 --> 00:13:58,571
like Nelson Mandela or someone,
who will unite that nation.
229
00:13:59,313 --> 00:14:02,486
And that ruler will have a child, two
children say - Arthur and Henry.
230
00:14:03,488 --> 00:14:07,288
The pressure on those children
to maintain the hard fought stability
231
00:14:07,954 --> 00:14:11,212
for a nation after a long period
of civil war is enormous.
232
00:14:11,979 --> 00:14:13,908
And that pressure it
all lands on Henry.
233
00:14:14,534 --> 00:14:16,138
It warps his character.
It's too much pressure.
234
00:14:17,729 --> 00:14:20,653
I have not forgotten how I helped
your master against the French.
235
00:14:22,339 --> 00:14:23,607
He promised me territory.
236
00:14:24,245 --> 00:14:26,431
Next thing I hear he's making
a treaty with Francois!
237
00:14:27,908 --> 00:14:29,186
The emperor treats
me like an infant.
238
00:14:30,363 --> 00:14:33,316
First he whips me, then he pets
me, then he whips me again.
239
00:14:33,911 --> 00:14:35,272
Well tell him I
am not an infant.
240
00:14:36,162 --> 00:14:38,704
And tell him to keep out
of my family business.
241
00:14:39,603 --> 00:14:41,235
First he tells me how
I should marry,
242
00:14:42,202 --> 00:14:45,246
then he wants to show me
how to deal with my own daughter.
243
00:14:49,633 --> 00:14:52,092
I demand a profound
and public apology.
244
00:14:53,259 --> 00:14:55,087
He became very like his father.
Very paranoid.
245
00:14:55,911 --> 00:15:00,241
Very suspicious that
didn't come from himself.
246
00:15:01,188 --> 00:15:03,328
And a man like Cromwell,
who appears to be
247
00:15:04,206 --> 00:15:05,489
the second most powerful
person in the land
248
00:15:06,155 --> 00:15:09,673
Ends up realising that it's
either do what Henry says or die.
249
00:15:10,782 --> 00:15:14,686
And that is the dilemma that casts a
shadow over the final episode, Episode Six
250
00:15:15,563 --> 00:15:18,477
Where he's forced to do something
he absolutely doesn't want to do
251
00:15:19,016 --> 00:15:20,830
Which is to destroy
Anne Boleyn,
252
00:15:21,448 --> 00:15:22,987
a woman for whom he
has the greatest respect.
253
00:15:24,284 --> 00:15:25,332
And its her or him.
254
00:15:26,194 --> 00:15:28,250
Cromwell is watching
her go to her death,
255
00:15:29,167 --> 00:15:32,181
and in that moment he
doesn't want her to die.
256
00:15:33,878 --> 00:15:34,665
No, of course not.
257
00:15:35,382 --> 00:15:38,710
He can see Cromwell many moves
ahead on the chessboard.
258
00:15:39,552 --> 00:15:41,256
And he's trying to encourage
the other player
259
00:15:41,777 --> 00:15:44,173
to get off the road
before they get hit.
260
00:15:45,281 --> 00:15:46,352
When you read the book,
you see that
261
00:15:46,924 --> 00:15:49,266
he's supporting so many
members of his family.
262
00:15:49,881 --> 00:15:50,948
He's taking in orphans.
263
00:15:51,576 --> 00:15:54,017
He's giving a lot of
money outside his house.
264
00:15:54,614 --> 00:15:56,453
We know that he gave
money for the roads.
265
00:15:57,361 --> 00:15:59,581
He's supporting a lot
of other people.
266
00:16:00,423 --> 00:16:03,525
So he knows if he goes down, a lot
of wildlife goes down as well.
267
00:16:04,243 --> 00:16:06,931
He wants to keep himself
enabled to do good to others.
268
00:16:07,675 --> 00:16:09,200
And if the person won't
save themselves,
269
00:16:09,986 --> 00:16:11,948
then you know they
shouldn't be in the game.
270
00:16:12,707 --> 00:16:14,662
Peter Straughan's written it
brilliantly so you see the
271
00:16:15,248 --> 00:16:17,369
inter-cutting between Cromwell
on the morning of the execution
272
00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:18,541
Talking to the executioner
273
00:16:21,037 --> 00:16:23,048
Trying to make sure
that she doesn't suffer
274
00:16:23,980 --> 00:16:24,738
And that it's done properly
275
00:16:26,071 --> 00:16:27,198
How will you do it?
276
00:16:28,301 --> 00:16:28,922
She kneels?
277
00:16:30,484 --> 00:16:31,182
There is no block.
278
00:16:36,270 --> 00:16:37,458
And then the event itself.
279
00:16:39,332 --> 00:16:41,047
He wants her to have a
clean and painless death.
280
00:16:44,618 --> 00:16:47,532
And then he goes to Henry and
Henry throws open his arms.
281
00:16:48,965 --> 00:16:50,654
With a great beam on
his eyes, to welcome.
282
00:16:53,546 --> 00:16:57,228
And we see Cromwell's face, and
we see a man caught in a trap.
283
00:16:58,639 --> 00:17:00,103
Arguably of his own making.
284
00:17:00,644 --> 00:17:02,529
And I'm thinking of Faust who
made a pact with the devil
285
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,840
And then came to realise what
that pact would cost him.
286
00:17:13,074 --> 00:17:15,426
You talk about the way
that Peter works.
287
00:17:17,746 --> 00:17:19,795
And there's a real challenge in
bringing the right atmostphere.
288
00:17:20,517 --> 00:17:21,584
So first of all, locations.
289
00:17:22,278 --> 00:17:25,454
Was that actually a great challenge
to get the right location
290
00:17:26,066 --> 00:17:28,368
Was it enjoyable, tell
me about some of that.
291
00:17:28,942 --> 00:17:30,577
Well thank God! We were
going to be filming Europe
292
00:17:31,123 --> 00:17:31,783
In Brogues I think
293
00:17:32,499 --> 00:17:33,630
And Peter went
and had a look
294
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:35,313
and said:
This doesn't look like England
295
00:17:35,985 --> 00:17:39,434
And insisted that we filmed
in English locations
296
00:17:40,041 --> 00:17:42,085
Which was just wonderful
297
00:17:42,746 --> 00:17:44,817
Mark's absolutely
right, and it was a joy
298
00:17:45,650 --> 00:17:49,347
When we were filming that very final
scene between Cromwell and Henry
299
00:17:50,550 --> 00:17:53,104
In Penshurt's place,
in the gallery
300
00:17:53,729 --> 00:17:56,500
We were actually in a room that
Henry and Anne Boleyn had stood in
301
00:17:57,354 --> 00:17:58,906
Was there a "(french-word)?"
for you about that?
302
00:17:59,744 --> 00:18:01,382
Oh yeah, yeah of course.
303
00:18:02,424 --> 00:18:04,854
There's a "(french-word)?" for me
here today, in this chapel
304
00:18:05,501 --> 00:18:06,799
With them being buried here,
305
00:18:07,451 --> 00:18:08,910
And we're right near where
they were executed.
306
00:18:09,581 --> 00:18:11,405
History leaves such a resonance.
307
00:18:12,167 --> 00:18:14,909
And also the beauty of the gardens,
and the beauty of the land around.
308
00:18:15,535 --> 00:18:18,402
I'd forgotten just how
fantastic the resources
309
00:18:19,044 --> 00:18:20,067
are in England
for these houses.
310
00:18:20,818 --> 00:18:23,084
So all of that encourages you,
with the clothing and everything
311
00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:25,710
To take on a sensibility
that they had.
312
00:18:26,651 --> 00:18:28,253
Also, much has been made
of the candlelight.
313
00:18:28,968 --> 00:18:30,878
I'm reminded of something
that Hilary said.
314
00:18:31,515 --> 00:18:34,782
She said that: "Candlelight does
something amazing to your imagination."
315
00:18:36,838 --> 00:18:37,499
Is that what you were thinking?
316
00:18:38,478 --> 00:18:42,227
Well I asked Gavin Finney, our Director
of Photography a fairly simple question.
317
00:18:42,968 --> 00:18:45,284
Which is:
"Is it possible, with the technology
318
00:18:45,910 --> 00:18:49,214
that we have, to shoot
night scenes by candlelight"
319
00:18:50,761 --> 00:18:52,250
And he said: "Yes,
I think it is"
320
00:18:53,318 --> 00:18:54,662
Do you think he's afraid of me?
321
00:18:57,482 --> 00:18:58,439
Why should he be?
322
00:19:01,704 --> 00:19:02,877
I don't know?
323
00:19:03,427 --> 00:19:06,785
First of all, I wanted day to be very
bright, with strong white light.
324
00:19:07,503 --> 00:19:10,735
And night, the rooms take on a
completely different character.
325
00:19:11,317 --> 00:19:12,399
Shadows are profound.
326
00:19:13,983 --> 00:19:18,964
We have one scene, where Joan;
Cromwell's sister-in-law
327
00:19:20,062 --> 00:19:22,278
Slowly extinguishing
candles round the room
328
00:19:22,901 --> 00:19:24,563
Until Cromwell is light
by just one light
329
00:19:26,393 --> 00:19:26,623
And the fire.
330
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,669
Does Johane Williamson
not do his duty by you?
331
00:19:34,693 --> 00:19:35,991
His duty's not my pleasure.
332
00:19:49,740 --> 00:19:51,749
There's a conversation
I should never have.
333
00:19:53,855 --> 00:19:55,293
That sense of
closing in on him,
334
00:19:55,986 --> 00:19:58,000
Until you're just left
in a pool of light
335
00:19:58,677 --> 00:20:00,451
For me, that was
an artistic choice
336
00:20:01,308 --> 00:20:04,411
That wasn't in the book
or scripted particularly.
337
00:20:05,231 --> 00:20:06,841
And another way
that you make it
338
00:20:07,499 --> 00:20:09,166
so much from
Cromwell's perspective
339
00:20:10,005 --> 00:20:11,605
Is by using the hand-held camera
340
00:20:12,224 --> 00:20:14,270
Explain how you decided the
trajectory for all that.
341
00:20:14,861 --> 00:20:15,944
That's a heavy camera you know.
342
00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:17,631
That's a 30-pound camera.
343
00:20:18,264 --> 00:20:19,984
Pick up a 30-pound
weight in your gym.
344
00:20:20,736 --> 00:20:23,938
And that's what Gavin
was wearing every day.
345
00:20:24,565 --> 00:20:25,662
17 weeks?
346
00:20:26,323 --> 00:20:28,158
He had to train. He had
to do physical training.
347
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,685
And carry on training in the
morning and on the weekends.
348
00:20:31,436 --> 00:20:32,933
To make sure his
back didn't go down.
349
00:20:33,568 --> 00:20:35,742
It almost was as if the camera
was one of the performers.
350
00:20:37,321 --> 00:20:38,784
I don't like to hold back.
351
00:20:39,381 --> 00:20:41,456
Hold off, like that
camera's doing over there.
352
00:20:42,265 --> 00:20:43,793
I like the camera
to be with Mark.
353
00:20:44,829 --> 00:20:46,412
You know, one of the
challenges that we faced.
354
00:20:47,425 --> 00:20:49,404
So much of the novels is the
interior world of Cromwell.
355
00:20:50,933 --> 00:20:52,933
We didn't want narration.
356
00:20:53,911 --> 00:20:56,466
So how do you convey the sense
that we're with this man.
357
00:20:57,129 --> 00:20:58,617
That he is not just
the main character.
358
00:20:59,319 --> 00:21:00,295
But he's our character.
359
00:21:00,907 --> 00:21:02,152
He's the person whose
guiding us through.
360
00:21:02,692 --> 00:21:04,167
Taking you now to a scene,
where I thought
361
00:21:04,748 --> 00:21:07,178
that Mark was just actually about
to really kill Damian Lewis
362
00:21:07,796 --> 00:21:08,897
rather than save Henry.
363
00:21:09,584 --> 00:21:11,289
Tell me about the jousting scene
364
00:21:11,950 --> 00:21:13,861
We made a decision on the day
365
00:21:14,571 --> 00:21:15,748
I threw it at Mark really
366
00:21:16,582 --> 00:21:18,125
Normally in that situation
what you would do is
367
00:21:18,766 --> 00:21:20,218
You'd have all the extras
miming, they'd all be going...
368
00:21:21,245 --> 00:21:22,871
And it would be silent.
369
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:24,981
And you'd then
record the dialogue
370
00:21:25,678 --> 00:21:27,232
And the actors would have
to shout as if everyone...
371
00:21:27,788 --> 00:21:29,241
And then at the end, you'd record
all the crowd making a noise.
372
00:21:30,027 --> 00:21:31,984
And I just didn't think
that would work.
373
00:21:32,670 --> 00:21:33,873
This was a very frantic scene.
374
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,520
So what we did, we decided
to do it for real.
375
00:21:37,367 --> 00:21:38,831
We got everybody to
shout, and scream.
376
00:21:40,334 --> 00:21:44,004
And Mark, and Bernard Hill who
plays the Duke of Norfolk
377
00:21:44,576 --> 00:21:46,561
And the other actors,
and Damian, had to act
378
00:21:47,216 --> 00:21:49,293
With all this noise, and
confusion and racket
379
00:21:50,589 --> 00:21:52,856
It was quite chaotic
really, wasn't it?
380
00:21:53,380 --> 00:21:54,634
It was. In a very small tent.
381
00:21:55,371 --> 00:21:58,357
Just doing one take and we had very,
very good extras on this film
382
00:21:58,975 --> 00:21:59,755
I have to say
383
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:01,876
They stood in the rain.
They were marvelous.
384
00:22:02,473 --> 00:22:04,498
But on this day, they didn't
seem to know who I was.
385
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:06,191
Or that I was going to be...
386
00:22:06,768 --> 00:22:08,235
I don't think anyone had told
them I was going to come through
387
00:22:08,833 --> 00:22:11,435
And I really had to
push, and get in there
388
00:22:12,183 --> 00:22:13,830
And then they were
all pushing around
389
00:22:15,741 --> 00:22:17,364
"What do you mean,
leaving him lying here!"
390
00:22:24,131 --> 00:22:27,755
I think I pulled my blow as I
tried to get Damian's heart going
391
00:22:28,381 --> 00:22:29,363
I think you got carried away
392
00:22:29,955 --> 00:22:31,167
Maybe, I don't know...
393
00:22:32,410 --> 00:22:33,527
When we're watching it
394
00:22:34,030 --> 00:22:36,376
We're very aware of the kind of,
modernity of the dilemma's
395
00:22:37,925 --> 00:22:39,969
Does it play to a modern political
sensibility, do you think Peter.
396
00:22:41,222 --> 00:22:42,579
I do.
I do and I think
397
00:22:43,172 --> 00:22:45,598
Mark has referred
earlier to the battle
398
00:22:46,187 --> 00:22:47,578
between idealism
and pragmatism.
399
00:22:48,439 --> 00:22:50,455
And, you know I'm currently working
on something about ISIS
400
00:22:51,362 --> 00:22:52,359
The Islamic State
401
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,856
Which you know, which is, I
suppose a form of idealism
402
00:22:58,113 --> 00:23:01,005
Islam is about 500 years
younger than Christianity
403
00:23:02,539 --> 00:23:06,945
And the period we're looking
at here is about 500 years ago
404
00:23:08,077 --> 00:23:09,708
So we're looking at a
time when Christianity
405
00:23:10,744 --> 00:23:13,983
was about the same age
as a religion as Islam is today
406
00:23:14,731 --> 00:23:15,702
And what were we doing back then
407
00:23:16,277 --> 00:23:17,801
Well we were chopping
people's heads off
408
00:23:18,457 --> 00:23:20,122
We were burning people
alive at the stake
409
00:23:20,731 --> 00:23:22,171
We were disemboweling
people, alive
410
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:25,139
And then drawing
and quartering them
411
00:23:26,046 --> 00:23:27,700
And why? Why were we doing that?
412
00:23:28,297 --> 00:23:32,235
We were doing it primarily over
quite subtle differences
413
00:23:32,856 --> 00:23:34,737
of interpretation of
religious doctrine.
414
00:23:35,439 --> 00:23:36,346
Does that sound familiar?
415
00:23:37,339 --> 00:23:39,955
But also in the manner in
which the court operates.
416
00:23:40,687 --> 00:23:42,822
The wheeling and dealing.
The back-stabbing.
417
00:23:43,628 --> 00:23:46,856
People don't often have a very high
opinion of modern day politics.
418
00:23:48,903 --> 00:23:50,756
There's some modern day politics in
all of this as well, isn't there.
419
00:23:51,658 --> 00:23:56,210
Certainly, Henry's struggle
with a force outside of England
420
00:23:56,885 --> 00:23:57,848
The Catholic church
421
00:23:58,460 --> 00:24:00,680
I think our modern politicians
have a great struggle
422
00:24:01,291 --> 00:24:04,570
with the multi-national
forces of business.
423
00:24:05,351 --> 00:24:06,444
The fight for democracy
424
00:24:07,014 --> 00:24:09,241
The fight even in a village to have the
right to say, we don't want a Tesco's
425
00:24:10,153 --> 00:24:11,381
We want to keep our High Street
426
00:24:13,461 --> 00:24:16,077
So the period tells us a lot about
a struggle for independence
427
00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:18,649
At that time, it's the
independence of the Monarch
428
00:24:19,491 --> 00:24:21,237
At the moment, it's a struggle
for the independence
429
00:24:21,888 --> 00:24:25,079
of a democratic elected government
from outside influences
430
00:24:26,397 --> 00:24:27,536
In that way it's very parallel
431
00:24:28,282 --> 00:24:30,102
In some ways you can
see Henry VIII being,
432
00:24:30,743 --> 00:24:33,746
as he separates from
the Catholic Church
433
00:24:34,481 --> 00:24:36,782
Just being in as vulnerable a
position as Chavez, in Venezuela
434
00:24:39,209 --> 00:24:41,507
And is paranoid being
similar, to what appears
435
00:24:42,221 --> 00:24:44,606
at times to be paranoid behaviour
of a leader like Chavez
436
00:24:45,481 --> 00:24:46,623
Do you think there are
some similarities?
437
00:24:47,204 --> 00:24:47,965
Yeah
438
00:24:48,671 --> 00:24:56,912
You've now created a Cromwell who
is still moving, still on the up.
439
00:24:57,769 --> 00:24:59,358
Hilary's vision of
him is not complete.
440
00:25:00,455 --> 00:25:02,034
So, although you know
the general trajectory,
441
00:25:02,666 --> 00:25:03,613
because you understand history,
442
00:25:04,159 --> 00:25:05,512
You don't really know how
he's going to play it.
443
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,821
No I don't. No, I'm
not a historian.
444
00:25:09,782 --> 00:25:13,783
I know, because Peter's told me; that
the last words he writes to Henry
445
00:25:16,374 --> 00:25:18,394
From a room, somewhere
in the vicinity here
446
00:25:19,282 --> 00:25:21,723
Are Mercy.
Mercy, mercy, mercy.
447
00:25:22,249 --> 00:25:23,152
What, four or five times.
448
00:25:23,753 --> 00:25:26,524
In this final plea to Henry
before he's beheaded.
449
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:29,264
So I know where it's
heading, so to speak.
450
00:25:30,423 --> 00:25:32,638
Your plan is to go on and complete
the journey with Cromwell.
451
00:25:33,340 --> 00:25:36,413
Oh yeah, of course if she
is able to write the book.
452
00:25:37,115 --> 00:25:39,667
Hilary now has three children.
453
00:25:40,162 --> 00:25:41,846
She has the book, which
is the two books.
454
00:25:42,663 --> 00:25:44,076
She has the play, which
is the RSC of Donne.
455
00:25:44,898 --> 00:25:45,916
And she has our film.
456
00:25:46,498 --> 00:25:48,137
I think it's proven
quite difficult for her
457
00:25:48,723 --> 00:25:51,389
To go back into that
lonely single mum place
458
00:25:51,936 --> 00:25:53,982
of writing a book that
all writers have to go to
459
00:25:54,632 --> 00:25:55,951
Which is really hard
460
00:25:58,055 --> 00:25:59,890
It's impossible for her
not to be affected
461
00:26:00,686 --> 00:26:03,939
by the manifestations that Ben Miles
and I have brought to Cromwell
462
00:26:04,912 --> 00:26:06,982
That Anton and John Ram
have brought to More
463
00:26:07,714 --> 00:26:11,238
All of this stuff, she's no longer
just working with historical documents
464
00:26:12,571 --> 00:26:14,410
She's working with the
impressions we've added to it
465
00:26:15,423 --> 00:26:18,866
And do you think that'll be a joy for
her, or actually very tough to go back
466
00:26:21,427 --> 00:26:25,958
Well, it's difficult because I've
spoken to Hilary about the book
467
00:26:27,201 --> 00:26:29,040
All she will say is,
it's going well
468
00:26:29,733 --> 00:26:31,236
And it's not going
to be a short one
469
00:26:32,765 --> 00:26:36,835
I think, we feel like we've
done two-thirds of the journey
470
00:26:38,689 --> 00:26:42,826
I have to tell you I was terribly
affected by the death of Anne Boleyn
471
00:26:43,917 --> 00:26:45,247
When we shot it
472
00:26:46,518 --> 00:26:48,542
And that day itself was
an extraordinary day
473
00:26:49,992 --> 00:26:52,282
But, it will be as nothing
to the impact
474
00:26:53,220 --> 00:26:56,478
that it will have on all of us to
shoot the execution of Cromwell
475
00:26:57,562 --> 00:26:59,756
If we do this, we're going to
go on a dark journey again
476
00:27:00,583 --> 00:27:05,780
And do you have fears for Cromwell's
end, yourself as an actor
477
00:27:07,449 --> 00:27:08,627
How you're going to deal with it
478
00:27:09,249 --> 00:27:10,887
When I watch it, I'm
already concerned for what
479
00:27:13,664 --> 00:27:17,834
For him taking advantage
of Henry's cruelty to Anne
480
00:27:18,713 --> 00:27:19,953
To settle old scores
481
00:27:22,216 --> 00:27:23,784
He's already dying
inside, Cromwell
482
00:27:24,421 --> 00:27:27,919
And he's already in the mindset
of; it's just collateral damage
483
00:27:29,102 --> 00:27:31,422
And it's a dog-eat-dog world
484
00:27:32,725 --> 00:27:39,737
He's heading towards some karma,
for want of a better word
485
00:27:41,021 --> 00:27:42,716
On the last week of shooting,
after your seventeen weeks
486
00:27:44,484 --> 00:27:46,455
You took treats in for the crew
487
00:27:47,022 --> 00:27:50,468
Yes I had different
snack each afternoon
488
00:27:51,154 --> 00:27:54,138
Lovely Japanese food.
Lots of different things
489
00:27:54,644 --> 00:27:55,907
But it ended with
an ice-cream truck
490
00:27:56,895 --> 00:27:59,882
Which came with a marvelous kind
of, it played some funny tune
491
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,503
I can't remember the tune
492
00:28:03,050 --> 00:28:04,141
Mr Whippy tune
493
00:28:05,326 --> 00:28:06,988
And we all queued up and
had some lovely ice-cream
494
00:28:08,348 --> 00:28:09,577
We never knew what
was coming each day
495
00:28:10,859 --> 00:28:13,334
And we had to troop out of whichever
stately home we happened to be in
496
00:28:14,418 --> 00:28:15,802
At around about
four-o-clock the afternoon
497
00:28:16,462 --> 00:28:17,716
To discover what Mark
had arranged for us
498
00:28:19,164 --> 00:28:20,804
And it really rounded the
thing off beautifully
499
00:28:21,890 --> 00:28:23,360
Very Cromwellian wasn't it
500
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,033
Peter Kosminsky, Mark Rylance
501
00:28:25,675 --> 00:28:26,502
Thank you very much indeed.
502
00:28:27,053 --> 00:28:27,860
Thank you.
43465
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