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[waves crashing]
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♪ [upbeat music] ♪
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[Paul] Growing up
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in New Zealand,
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I went with a bunch
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of my schoolmates
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who were into surfing.
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They were diving
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into the ocean,
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and they looked amazing.
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I mean, it - it was difficult
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because in some ways
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I fancied them, you know,
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they were sexy guys.
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And I was thinking
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this is fantastic,
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but I can never
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be part of that.
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They are going
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to have happy lives.
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♪ [light pop music] ♪
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A few years ago,
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I started to make a list
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of all the men
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I'd met through sex,
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and there have been a lot.
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Initially, it was just because
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I didn't want to forget
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so many wonderful encounters.
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But then it became
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something more.
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I began to track
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some of them down.
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I was overwhelmed when you
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told me about this idea,
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this crazy project.
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I will ask my mum
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to take a sleeping pill
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before she sees this film.
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[laughs]
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[Paul] Been strange, you know?
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"Hi. We haven't talked,
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we bonked fifteen years ago
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a couple of times,
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um, can I come and do
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an interview with you?"
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I mean,
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you have no problems being,
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appearing in this, and...
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No no.
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There are, there are things...
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because I wasn't sure
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what we'd talk about,
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because obviously,
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we met through,
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through sex, didn't we?
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You know.
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-It's all right to say that?
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-Yeah. No. Absolutely.
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In a way, I love history,
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and this was a way
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of exploring history
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from a very personal angle.
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[Paul] As a filmmaker,
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I realized that counting down
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a hundred of the most
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memorable from my list
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was a way to look
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at how thing had changed
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for gay men in my lifetime.
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♪ [orchestral music] ♪
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♪ [upbeat surf music] ♪
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[Paul] Yeah Pita,
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as in the bread. [laughs]
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The reason he is
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number a hundred is,
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it's simply when I
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started writing this up.
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Mostly my countdown
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is in chronological order.
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But to tell the story,
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sometimes it makes sense
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to break the rules.
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I grew up in New Zealand,
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and had recently returned
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after many years in the UK.
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Soon after getting back,
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I went to a sex-on-site
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cruise club in Auckland.
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I met this fantastic
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Maori guy
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who was absolutely beautiful.
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I mean, he was, mid-30s,
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fantastic physique;
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he was every fantasy.
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We went and had sex,
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and I asked him
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to come back.
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And he said he couldn't.
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He wasn't out.
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Of course,
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I couldn't track him down,
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but it got me thinking...
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I wondered how much
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New Zealand had really changed
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since I grew up
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here in the 70s.
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♪ [organ music] ♪
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My parents were
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very religious,
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a fairly fundamentalist
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puritan religion.
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I think somewhere around
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that time, my Dad gave me
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the church book
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on sexuality...
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and I began to put
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two and two together.
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I met the next guy on the list,
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Mr. Raglan, recently
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and he also had
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a religious upbringing.
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It was a very
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simple conflict.
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I mean, I knew I was gay
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very early on,
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and the church
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thought that was a sin.
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I actually prayed, you know.
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-I said,
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"God make me straight."
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-Oh yeah.
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I've got journals of just
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heart-wrenching outpourings
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of pleading, you know.
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Pleading for change
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and healing,
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and to be better,
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and to do the right thing.
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And I was literally
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officially a missionary;
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I came to New Zealand
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as a missionary
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to work with the church.
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-You are originally
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from Canada?
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-So, I'm from Canada.
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I grew up in
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a small farming town,
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population five hundred,
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village,
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Brethren church community.
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So, my upbringing, my social
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life, was church and family.
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♪ [light piano music] ♪
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[Paul] I was sixteen when
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I first plucked up courage
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to go into a dirty bookshop.
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He actually wouldn't
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even be on the list,
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if it weren't for the fact
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that it was the first.
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It was certainly not
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memorable sex.
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There were some
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contact magazines...
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so I wrote a letter
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and agreed to meet
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someone in a motel.
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It was terrifying.
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I'm thinking, "God, am I going
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to go through with this?"
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For a period,
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right after the first time,
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I thought,
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"Okay, it's a phase.
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It'll be fine."
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And I was determined
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to become straight.
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There was very
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little alternative,
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something I found talking
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to others on the list,
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like a journalist I met
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in the UK some years later.
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There was nothing out there.
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There was literally
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nothing out there.
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I remember there's a, I,
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my parents didn't have that
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many books in the house.
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But, um, they did have this
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awful Pears Encyclopedia
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from about 1967,
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and I used to look at it
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all the time
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for the definition
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of homosexuality.
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And it talked about
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homosexuality as a disease
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that could be cured
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with electric shocks.
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[Paul] What did you do about it?
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[laughs]
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I -I tried to seduce
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all of my
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school mates, obviously.
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Um, and-and
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successfully actually,
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with quite a few of them.
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[Paul] One of the teachers
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giving a talk,
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it was in a sex
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education class,
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he came up with a theory
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that you could always
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tell homosexuals
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because they strike matches
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away from themselves.
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And I was sitting
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in the class thinking,
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"Do I strike matches towards
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me or away from me?"
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I'm not quite sure.
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Jones is one, you know.
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Yeah, you can tell.
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He strikes matches
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away from him.
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[clicks tongue] What's
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that supposed to mean?
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I dunno.
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Read it in the paper.
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Nah.
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They are not all like that.
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Some act normal.
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You might be one.
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Yeah I know.
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Give us a kiss. [laughs]
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Fuck off.
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[waves crashing]
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[Paul] I'd heard about a beach
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where gay men went cruising.
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Met somebody there,
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and had sex with him
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there on the beach.
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That was when it really
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started to get heavy
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because I then knew
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this wasn't just a phase.
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I entered a world
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of clandestine cruising,
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meeting people in parks,
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beaches, toilets.
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This strange world,
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it's like a subterranean
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culture that exists.
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And that becomes
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in itself quite exciting.
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♪ [upbeat rock music] ♪
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I was still going to school.
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By this time, I'd been made
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a deacon in the church.
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I was getting very
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little sleep. [laughs]
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And it started to spiral
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out of control.
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It was around that time
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that I thought, "Right,
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I'll give my life to God,
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he'll make me straight,
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and I'll go off
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and become a preacher."
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So, I headed off to a seminary
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run by the church.
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Did you believe,
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did you have faith?
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Because I actually went off,
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I actually went off
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to become a preacher.
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-I went to,
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I went to a seminary.
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-Yeah, yeah.
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And I looked into going
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to bible college as well.
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[laughs]
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-[choir singing "Deep River"]
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-♪ Deep river ♪
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♪ My home is over Jordan ♪
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[Paul] I was
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at the Church Seminary
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for about eight months.
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It was a boarding place,
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and to be absolutely honest,
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I nearly went mad.
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I started to hallucinate.
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♪ Oh, don't you want to go ♪
297
00:09:06,421 --> 00:09:08,507
I just thought,
298
00:09:06,421 --> 00:09:08,507
"I don't want to go mad.
299
00:09:08,507 --> 00:09:10,633
I don't care about
300
00:09:08,507 --> 00:09:10,633
being straight anymore,
301
00:09:10,633 --> 00:09:13,303
I don't care about what
302
00:09:10,633 --> 00:09:13,303
other people think of me."
303
00:09:13,303 --> 00:09:16,264
And I certainly decided
304
00:09:13,303 --> 00:09:16,264
that I was not interested in
305
00:09:16,264 --> 00:09:17,724
becoming a preacher.
306
00:09:17,724 --> 00:09:20,519
♪ I want to cross over ♪
307
00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:24,356
♪ Into campground ♪
308
00:09:24,356 --> 00:09:26,691
A lot of the people
309
00:09:24,356 --> 00:09:26,691
we talked to, myself included,
310
00:09:26,691 --> 00:09:29,403
the religious aspect,
311
00:09:26,691 --> 00:09:29,403
in terms of, being gay,
312
00:09:29,403 --> 00:09:31,612
caused us huge problems.
313
00:09:31,612 --> 00:09:32,822
Was that the case
314
00:09:31,612 --> 00:09:32,822
with yourself?
315
00:09:32,822 --> 00:09:34,324
No, actually not.
316
00:09:34,324 --> 00:09:38,119
Um, my, um, my father
317
00:09:34,324 --> 00:09:38,119
is a Methodist minister,
318
00:09:38,119 --> 00:09:40,830
my stepmother is
319
00:09:38,119 --> 00:09:40,830
a Catholic ex-nun.
320
00:09:40,830 --> 00:09:44,959
Um, but they are both very
321
00:09:40,830 --> 00:09:44,959
liberal, socialist tree-huggers.
322
00:09:44,959 --> 00:09:49,339
Um, when I came out to them
323
00:09:44,959 --> 00:09:49,339
in a letter at fifteen,
324
00:09:49,339 --> 00:09:51,299
ah, I also told them
325
00:09:49,339 --> 00:09:51,299
at the same time
326
00:09:51,299 --> 00:09:53,301
that I'd started smoking.
327
00:09:53,301 --> 00:09:56,012
And I got a letter back saying
328
00:09:53,301 --> 00:09:56,012
how devastated they were
329
00:09:56,012 --> 00:09:58,598
about the smoking, and they
330
00:09:56,012 --> 00:09:58,598
didn't care about the gay.
331
00:10:02,394 --> 00:10:04,354
[Paul] When I got back
332
00:10:02,394 --> 00:10:04,354
from the seminary,
333
00:10:04,354 --> 00:10:07,023
I went to a sauna and started
334
00:10:04,354 --> 00:10:07,023
meeting interesting people,
335
00:10:07,023 --> 00:10:09,109
like James.
336
00:10:09,109 --> 00:10:11,069
-[whistle blowing]
337
00:10:09,109 --> 00:10:11,069
-[game-related chatter]
338
00:10:12,653 --> 00:10:14,030
[James] I know.
339
00:10:12,653 --> 00:10:14,030
It's that name, ah,
340
00:10:14,030 --> 00:10:15,949
after a breakfast cereal.
341
00:10:15,949 --> 00:10:17,409
[Paul] Who came up
342
00:10:15,949 --> 00:10:17,409
with the name?
343
00:10:17,409 --> 00:10:19,035
Well, there's two teams.
344
00:10:19,035 --> 00:10:20,995
We're Cheerios, and the
345
00:10:19,035 --> 00:10:20,995
other one is called Fruit Loops.
346
00:10:20,995 --> 00:10:23,998
So, we are, kind of, like,
347
00:10:20,995 --> 00:10:23,998
the cereal brand of gay men
348
00:10:23,998 --> 00:10:27,001
that play touch on
349
00:10:23,998 --> 00:10:27,001
a Monday night here, Paul.
350
00:10:30,171 --> 00:10:31,631
[Paul] Did you always
351
00:10:30,171 --> 00:10:31,631
know you were gay?
352
00:10:31,631 --> 00:10:33,216
Yep...
353
00:10:33,216 --> 00:10:36,428
had sex with
354
00:10:33,216 --> 00:10:36,428
the neighbor's, ah,
355
00:10:36,428 --> 00:10:38,179
neighbor's, one of the brothers.
356
00:10:38,179 --> 00:10:40,474
There was five brothers
357
00:10:38,179 --> 00:10:40,474
next door.
358
00:10:40,474 --> 00:10:42,683
Must been about
359
00:10:40,474 --> 00:10:42,683
eleven or twelve.
360
00:10:42,683 --> 00:10:46,062
He must have been about
361
00:10:42,683 --> 00:10:46,062
thirteen or something.
362
00:10:46,062 --> 00:10:48,189
And I got a feeling
363
00:10:46,062 --> 00:10:48,189
my parents knew I was gay,
364
00:10:48,189 --> 00:10:49,524
but they didn't want
365
00:10:48,189 --> 00:10:49,524
to believe it either.
366
00:10:49,524 --> 00:10:50,942
Especially, you know,
367
00:10:49,524 --> 00:10:50,942
in my twenties
368
00:10:50,942 --> 00:10:53,194
when I used to bring home
369
00:10:50,942 --> 00:10:53,194
a dear friend.
370
00:10:53,194 --> 00:10:56,906
They used to call them.
371
00:10:53,194 --> 00:10:56,906
"Oh, that's James' friend."
372
00:10:56,906 --> 00:10:58,408
These were older European men.
373
00:10:58,408 --> 00:11:01,077
So, you know,
374
00:10:58,408 --> 00:11:01,077
ten years older than me.
375
00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:03,997
[Paul] So, if you knew
376
00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:03,997
you were gay,
377
00:11:03,997 --> 00:11:05,540
why did you get a girlfriend?
378
00:11:05,540 --> 00:11:07,083
Fuck, I wasn't gonna...
379
00:11:07,083 --> 00:11:10,211
I wasn't gonna tell
380
00:11:07,083 --> 00:11:10,211
people back then, ah, Paul.
381
00:11:10,211 --> 00:11:11,505
I wasn't going
382
00:11:10,211 --> 00:11:11,505
to let them know.
383
00:11:11,505 --> 00:11:12,922
Why?
384
00:11:12,922 --> 00:11:15,425
Oh, probably because
385
00:11:12,922 --> 00:11:15,425
the people I was with,
386
00:11:15,425 --> 00:11:16,593
you know, um...
387
00:11:16,593 --> 00:11:18,970
people like me...
388
00:11:16,593 --> 00:11:18,970
street people,
389
00:11:18,970 --> 00:11:20,805
gang people.
390
00:11:18,970 --> 00:11:20,805
[laughs]
391
00:11:23,475 --> 00:11:25,268
[Paul] Your father said
392
00:11:23,475 --> 00:11:25,268
he used to beat the living
393
00:11:25,268 --> 00:11:28,355
daylights out of
394
00:11:25,268 --> 00:11:28,355
people like you.
395
00:11:28,355 --> 00:11:30,190
Brogan, a friend
396
00:11:28,355 --> 00:11:30,190
I've met more recently,
397
00:11:30,190 --> 00:11:32,442
also comes
398
00:11:30,190 --> 00:11:32,442
from a tough background.
399
00:11:32,442 --> 00:11:35,153
[Brogan] My father has
400
00:11:32,442 --> 00:11:35,153
always told me that,
401
00:11:35,153 --> 00:11:39,407
you know, be a man,
402
00:11:35,153 --> 00:11:39,407
get a girlfriend, get a job.
403
00:11:39,407 --> 00:11:41,700
I suppose in a way
404
00:11:39,407 --> 00:11:41,700
it was to, kind of,
405
00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:43,328
scare me to go straight.
406
00:11:46,540 --> 00:11:47,957
[David]
407
00:11:46,540 --> 00:11:47,957
Living in a council estate
408
00:11:47,957 --> 00:11:50,709
wasn't the easiest
409
00:11:47,957 --> 00:11:50,709
thing in the world.
410
00:11:50,709 --> 00:11:52,170
[Paul] You said
411
00:11:50,709 --> 00:11:52,170
you came out at fifteen.
412
00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:54,297
-Was that to everybody?
413
00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:54,297
-Yes, yes.
414
00:11:54,297 --> 00:11:55,840
[Paul] And how did
415
00:11:54,297 --> 00:11:55,840
that go down in Burnley?
416
00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,009
[David] I spent most
417
00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,009
of my life at school
418
00:11:58,009 --> 00:12:00,387
being chased around
419
00:11:58,009 --> 00:12:00,387
the corridors being called,
420
00:12:00,387 --> 00:12:01,804
"Poof, poof, poof,
421
00:12:00,387 --> 00:12:01,804
poof, poof."
422
00:12:01,804 --> 00:12:03,348
Ah, but so did my sisters,
423
00:12:03,348 --> 00:12:05,559
so I don't think they quite
424
00:12:03,348 --> 00:12:05,559
understood the word.
425
00:12:08,311 --> 00:12:09,812
[Chris] I mean,
426
00:12:08,311 --> 00:12:09,812
one of the consequences
427
00:12:09,812 --> 00:12:13,483
of that problematizing of,
428
00:12:09,812 --> 00:12:13,483
of sexuality is it,
429
00:12:13,483 --> 00:12:16,486
ah, is it emotionally retards
430
00:12:13,483 --> 00:12:16,486
a lot of gay men, I think.
431
00:12:16,486 --> 00:12:18,279
Because a lot
432
00:12:16,486 --> 00:12:18,279
of that exploration
433
00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:20,198
we should be doing publicly.
434
00:12:20,198 --> 00:12:21,700
Falling in love,
435
00:12:20,198 --> 00:12:21,700
breaking up,
436
00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:23,702
having the fights,
437
00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:23,702
having crushes,
438
00:12:23,702 --> 00:12:26,329
all the stuff that our
439
00:12:23,702 --> 00:12:26,329
straight friends are doing,
440
00:12:26,329 --> 00:12:27,997
we can't do publicly.
441
00:12:27,997 --> 00:12:31,626
And I think there is certain
442
00:12:27,997 --> 00:12:31,626
emotional retardation.
443
00:12:31,626 --> 00:12:34,753
Ah, a lot of stuff gets delayed
444
00:12:31,626 --> 00:12:34,753
until the twenties or,
445
00:12:34,753 --> 00:12:37,507
or late teens, which, um,
446
00:12:34,753 --> 00:12:37,507
which is a shame really.
447
00:12:40,385 --> 00:12:43,762
[Paul] I met a guy who
448
00:12:40,385 --> 00:12:43,762
used to make beautiful rugs.
449
00:12:43,762 --> 00:12:45,724
He was quite a lot older.
450
00:12:45,724 --> 00:12:47,308
I was seventeen,
451
00:12:47,308 --> 00:12:49,394
and he was probably
452
00:12:47,308 --> 00:12:49,394
in his forties
453
00:12:49,394 --> 00:12:51,396
and lived by himself.
454
00:12:51,396 --> 00:12:53,147
And it was quite
455
00:12:51,396 --> 00:12:53,147
sad in a way
456
00:12:53,147 --> 00:12:56,401
because he loved me
457
00:12:53,147 --> 00:12:56,401
coming round,
458
00:12:56,401 --> 00:12:58,653
and it wasn't even
459
00:12:56,401 --> 00:12:58,653
for the sex,
460
00:12:58,653 --> 00:13:01,531
it was just the fact
461
00:12:58,653 --> 00:13:01,531
that I'd sit and talk to him.
462
00:13:01,531 --> 00:13:02,990
And I thought this is sad,
463
00:13:02,990 --> 00:13:05,201
and I thought,
464
00:13:02,990 --> 00:13:05,201
"This is my future."
465
00:13:09,581 --> 00:13:12,333
The other person I met
466
00:13:09,581 --> 00:13:12,333
at the sauna was Douglas.
467
00:13:15,629 --> 00:13:17,547
Douglas told me
468
00:13:15,629 --> 00:13:17,547
that he was working there
469
00:13:17,547 --> 00:13:21,301
to earn money
470
00:13:17,547 --> 00:13:21,301
to continue his dance work.
471
00:13:21,301 --> 00:13:23,470
In those days,
472
00:13:21,301 --> 00:13:23,470
he was just starting out.
473
00:13:23,470 --> 00:13:25,888
For some reason that,
474
00:13:23,470 --> 00:13:25,888
that stuck in my head,
475
00:13:25,888 --> 00:13:28,683
and over the years,
476
00:13:25,888 --> 00:13:28,683
I managed to follow his career.
477
00:13:28,683 --> 00:13:32,353
♪ [jazz music playing] ♪
478
00:13:33,730 --> 00:13:35,398
Didn't ever talk
479
00:13:33,730 --> 00:13:35,398
to him since.
480
00:13:35,398 --> 00:13:36,899
I tracked him down,
481
00:13:36,899 --> 00:13:38,652
and I told him what
482
00:13:36,899 --> 00:13:38,652
I was doing and said,
483
00:13:38,652 --> 00:13:40,278
"Look, I'd love to come
484
00:13:38,652 --> 00:13:40,278
and interview you."
485
00:13:40,278 --> 00:13:44,073
So, he said, "Yes"
486
00:13:40,278 --> 00:13:44,073
and we did an interview.
487
00:13:44,073 --> 00:13:45,533
The Victoria Spa.
488
00:13:45,533 --> 00:13:48,328
[Paul] That's right.
489
00:13:45,533 --> 00:13:48,328
And...
490
00:13:48,328 --> 00:13:49,704
I can remember that.
491
00:13:49,704 --> 00:13:51,372
And I can remember it
492
00:13:49,704 --> 00:13:51,372
being very physical,
493
00:13:51,372 --> 00:13:52,873
and your beautiful body.
494
00:13:52,873 --> 00:13:56,586
And it was like you were
495
00:13:52,873 --> 00:13:56,586
the dancer in Victoria Spa.
496
00:13:56,586 --> 00:13:58,588
So, you stuck in my mind.
497
00:13:58,588 --> 00:14:02,258
But obviously, you, I mean,
498
00:13:58,588 --> 00:14:02,258
so I remember it. [laughs]
499
00:14:02,258 --> 00:14:04,927
I don't remember. [laughs]
500
00:14:04,927 --> 00:14:06,304
I'm sorry.
501
00:14:06,304 --> 00:14:07,764
[Paul] [laughs] That's fine.
502
00:14:09,974 --> 00:14:12,143
I think dancers
503
00:14:09,974 --> 00:14:12,143
punish their bodies.
504
00:14:12,143 --> 00:14:13,687
They all seem to smoke,
505
00:14:13,687 --> 00:14:16,063
and they all seem
506
00:14:13,687 --> 00:14:16,063
to take loads of drugs...
507
00:14:16,063 --> 00:14:18,692
and certainly Douglas, I think,
508
00:14:16,063 --> 00:14:18,692
lived life to the full,
509
00:14:18,692 --> 00:14:21,235
and is very honest about that.
510
00:14:21,235 --> 00:14:23,530
[Douglas] I moved in
511
00:14:21,235 --> 00:14:23,530
drug circles mainly
512
00:14:23,530 --> 00:14:25,156
when I was a teenager.
513
00:14:25,156 --> 00:14:30,286
And most of the men in those
514
00:14:25,156 --> 00:14:30,286
circles were heterosexual.
515
00:14:30,286 --> 00:14:31,705
So, I'd have crushes on them,
516
00:14:31,705 --> 00:14:33,623
but they'd stick
517
00:14:31,705 --> 00:14:33,623
needles in my arm
518
00:14:33,623 --> 00:14:36,334
but that's all they'd
519
00:14:33,623 --> 00:14:36,334
stick into me. [laughs]
520
00:14:41,589 --> 00:14:43,842
[breathing heavily]
521
00:14:43,842 --> 00:14:46,553
[Douglas] I went to Sydney
522
00:14:43,842 --> 00:14:46,553
and became a heroin addict,
523
00:14:46,553 --> 00:14:49,681
and I came back to New Zealand
524
00:14:46,553 --> 00:14:49,681
quite broken,
525
00:14:49,681 --> 00:14:51,808
and met Malcom then.
526
00:14:51,808 --> 00:14:53,142
[Paul] Was it love
527
00:14:51,808 --> 00:14:53,142
at first sight?
528
00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:54,935
Mmm.
529
00:14:57,397 --> 00:15:02,026
Malcom, not only pulled me
530
00:14:57,397 --> 00:15:02,026
out of using heroin,
531
00:15:02,026 --> 00:15:03,903
he asked me a question,
532
00:15:03,903 --> 00:15:05,488
"Is there anything
533
00:15:03,903 --> 00:15:05,488
in your life
534
00:15:05,488 --> 00:15:08,199
that you've ever
535
00:15:05,488 --> 00:15:08,199
wanted to do?"
536
00:15:08,199 --> 00:15:09,743
And I could remember
537
00:15:09,743 --> 00:15:13,496
that the only thing
538
00:15:09,743 --> 00:15:13,496
I'd ever loved was dancing.
539
00:15:17,083 --> 00:15:19,878
[Paul] I also fell in love,
540
00:15:17,083 --> 00:15:19,878
and that changed everything.
541
00:15:22,463 --> 00:15:24,965
He said, did I want
542
00:15:22,463 --> 00:15:24,965
to come home with him.
543
00:15:24,965 --> 00:15:26,634
I'd been back
544
00:15:24,965 --> 00:15:26,634
to people's places,
545
00:15:26,634 --> 00:15:28,344
but I'd never
546
00:15:26,634 --> 00:15:28,344
stayed the night
547
00:15:28,344 --> 00:15:32,139
and Ian clearly wanted me
548
00:15:28,344 --> 00:15:32,139
to stay the night.
549
00:15:32,139 --> 00:15:36,060
He lit loads of candles,
550
00:15:32,139 --> 00:15:36,060
cliché though that is. [laughs]
551
00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:37,896
I was in love.
552
00:15:37,896 --> 00:15:41,441
We did everything together,
553
00:15:37,896 --> 00:15:41,441
and he took me to a gay club,
554
00:15:41,441 --> 00:15:43,818
and that was a revelation.
555
00:15:43,818 --> 00:15:47,196
-[disco music playing]
556
00:15:43,818 --> 00:15:47,196
-♪ Oh, baby ♪
557
00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:50,991
♪ My heart is full of love
558
00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:50,991
and desire for you ♪
559
00:15:50,991 --> 00:15:55,079
♪ Now come on down
560
00:15:50,991 --> 00:15:55,079
and do what you've got to do ♪
561
00:15:55,079 --> 00:15:58,958
♪ You started this fire
562
00:15:55,079 --> 00:15:58,958
down in my soul ♪
563
00:15:58,958 --> 00:16:01,294
♪ Now can't you see
564
00:15:58,958 --> 00:16:01,294
it's burning out of control ♪
565
00:16:01,294 --> 00:16:03,003
[Paul] I was happy,
566
00:16:01,294 --> 00:16:03,003
I was so happy.
567
00:16:03,003 --> 00:16:06,173
And I did the whole thing.
568
00:16:03,003 --> 00:16:06,173
I came out,
569
00:16:06,173 --> 00:16:09,343
which shocked everybody
570
00:16:06,173 --> 00:16:09,343
at the time. [laughs]
571
00:16:09,343 --> 00:16:12,096
♪ Good loving can set me free ♪
572
00:16:12,096 --> 00:16:14,348
Did you actually come out
573
00:16:12,096 --> 00:16:14,348
at any point, is that...?
574
00:16:14,348 --> 00:16:15,934
[Chris] Yeah, oh God.
575
00:16:14,348 --> 00:16:15,934
Yeah.
576
00:16:15,934 --> 00:16:19,437
I wrote this awful...
577
00:16:19,437 --> 00:16:22,106
story about Christ's
578
00:16:19,437 --> 00:16:22,106
crucifixion
579
00:16:22,106 --> 00:16:25,443
where I kind of compared
580
00:16:22,106 --> 00:16:25,443
myself coming out to Christ,
581
00:16:25,443 --> 00:16:26,569
and honestly...
582
00:16:26,569 --> 00:16:28,028
I mean,
583
00:16:26,569 --> 00:16:28,028
it's embarrassing now.
584
00:16:28,028 --> 00:16:30,323
But it felt, I mean,
585
00:16:28,028 --> 00:16:30,323
the agony of coming out
586
00:16:30,323 --> 00:16:31,908
at that time was, was terrible.
587
00:16:33,785 --> 00:16:35,244
[Paul] My parents persuaded me
588
00:16:35,244 --> 00:16:36,996
that I should go
589
00:16:35,244 --> 00:16:36,996
and see a psychiatrist,
590
00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:38,915
because in those days
591
00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:38,915
it was considered a disease.
592
00:16:38,915 --> 00:16:40,792
So, I went and saw
593
00:16:38,915 --> 00:16:40,792
a psychiatrist,
594
00:16:40,792 --> 00:16:44,545
and he wanted to put me on
595
00:16:40,792 --> 00:16:44,545
some experimental drug therapy,
596
00:16:44,545 --> 00:16:46,088
which I think
597
00:16:44,545 --> 00:16:46,088
was a form of LSD.
598
00:16:46,088 --> 00:16:48,842
I should have tried it.
599
00:16:46,088 --> 00:16:48,842
[laughs]
600
00:16:48,842 --> 00:16:50,885
I would have been, yeah,
601
00:16:48,842 --> 00:16:50,885
around twenty-nine, thirty,
602
00:16:50,885 --> 00:16:52,428
that I would have,
603
00:16:50,885 --> 00:16:52,428
"come out."
604
00:16:52,428 --> 00:16:54,054
I think I finally
605
00:16:52,428 --> 00:16:54,054
blurted it out,
606
00:16:54,054 --> 00:16:56,098
I think it was, like,
607
00:16:54,054 --> 00:16:56,098
the night before we got married.
608
00:16:56,098 --> 00:16:58,726
And I said, "Oh by the way..."
609
00:16:56,098 --> 00:16:58,726
[laughs]
610
00:16:58,726 --> 00:17:01,228
I mean, despite how fraught
611
00:16:58,726 --> 00:17:01,228
it might have been,
612
00:17:01,228 --> 00:17:03,606
or how difficult,
613
00:17:01,228 --> 00:17:03,606
or the lack of understanding,
614
00:17:03,606 --> 00:17:05,733
or what we were honest
615
00:17:03,606 --> 00:17:05,733
or not honest about,
616
00:17:05,733 --> 00:17:08,820
that urge to follow God,
617
00:17:05,733 --> 00:17:08,820
you know,
618
00:17:08,820 --> 00:17:11,322
to do that thing
619
00:17:08,820 --> 00:17:11,322
that you think is just
620
00:17:11,322 --> 00:17:12,907
the right thing
621
00:17:11,322 --> 00:17:12,907
to do so strongly,
622
00:17:12,907 --> 00:17:15,201
you kind of go
623
00:17:12,907 --> 00:17:15,201
against all logic.
624
00:17:18,204 --> 00:17:20,832
[Paul] Because I was in love,
625
00:17:18,204 --> 00:17:20,832
I had the strength to come out.
626
00:17:20,832 --> 00:17:22,667
I didn't care
627
00:17:20,832 --> 00:17:22,667
what people thought,
628
00:17:22,667 --> 00:17:25,837
because I just wanted,
629
00:17:22,667 --> 00:17:25,837
you know, I was, I was happy.
630
00:17:25,837 --> 00:17:27,672
The problem was,
631
00:17:25,837 --> 00:17:27,672
in some ways,
632
00:17:27,672 --> 00:17:29,757
I'd never experienced
633
00:17:27,672 --> 00:17:29,757
anything like this before,
634
00:17:29,757 --> 00:17:32,051
and I think I smothered
635
00:17:29,757 --> 00:17:32,051
our relationship.
636
00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:37,097
After about six months,
637
00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:37,097
Ian said,
638
00:17:37,097 --> 00:17:39,851
look, he wanted to break up.
639
00:17:39,851 --> 00:17:41,686
And I didn't
640
00:17:39,851 --> 00:17:41,686
understand the reasons,
641
00:17:41,686 --> 00:17:44,522
and I was heartbroken.
642
00:17:46,649 --> 00:17:48,609
I decided it was time
643
00:17:46,649 --> 00:17:48,609
to see the world
644
00:17:48,609 --> 00:17:51,362
and go on an adventure.
645
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,618
I got to London
646
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,618
beginning of 1979.
647
00:17:57,618 --> 00:18:01,121
I got a job in a restaurant
648
00:17:57,618 --> 00:18:01,121
washing dishes
649
00:18:01,121 --> 00:18:04,959
and started to explore
650
00:18:01,121 --> 00:18:04,959
this huge city.
651
00:18:04,959 --> 00:18:07,545
♪ [up-tempo rock music] ♪
652
00:18:11,131 --> 00:18:13,051
It was the tail end of punk.
653
00:18:13,051 --> 00:18:16,763
I went to clubs,
654
00:18:13,051 --> 00:18:16,763
and saw amazing acts.
655
00:18:16,763 --> 00:18:18,305
[David] Punk rock
656
00:18:16,763 --> 00:18:18,305
was a huge thing
657
00:18:18,305 --> 00:18:20,934
and that absolutely
658
00:18:18,305 --> 00:18:20,934
saved my life
659
00:18:20,934 --> 00:18:25,145
because it became glamorous
660
00:18:20,934 --> 00:18:25,145
to be different, basically.
661
00:18:25,145 --> 00:18:26,814
So, instead of people
662
00:18:25,145 --> 00:18:26,814
chasing me round going,
663
00:18:26,814 --> 00:18:28,357
"Poof, poof, poof."
664
00:18:28,357 --> 00:18:29,943
They chased me around going,
665
00:18:28,357 --> 00:18:29,943
"Punk, punk, punk."
666
00:18:29,943 --> 00:18:31,277
And then started coming in
667
00:18:31,277 --> 00:18:33,071
and asking if they could
668
00:18:31,277 --> 00:18:33,071
join in my group.
669
00:18:38,451 --> 00:18:41,704
[Paul] Soho was the
670
00:18:38,451 --> 00:18:41,704
red-light district of London.
671
00:18:41,704 --> 00:18:45,083
It was a fantastically
672
00:18:41,704 --> 00:18:45,083
exciting world.
673
00:18:48,252 --> 00:18:51,756
I'd read about
674
00:18:48,252 --> 00:18:51,756
all the characters in books.
675
00:18:51,756 --> 00:18:54,092
I'd read Gean Genet;
676
00:18:51,756 --> 00:18:54,092
I'd read William Burroughs.
677
00:18:54,092 --> 00:18:55,760
You know, they'd written
678
00:18:54,092 --> 00:18:55,760
about drag queens,
679
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,177
they'd written
680
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,177
about gangsters,
681
00:18:57,177 --> 00:18:59,055
they'd written
682
00:18:57,177 --> 00:18:59,055
about rent boys,
683
00:18:59,055 --> 00:19:02,725
and, you know, I was
684
00:18:59,055 --> 00:19:02,725
suddenly at the heart of it.
685
00:19:02,725 --> 00:19:04,894
♪ [pop music playing] ♪
686
00:19:04,894 --> 00:19:07,146
♪ Tonight, tonight ♪
687
00:19:08,439 --> 00:19:10,066
♪ It's right tonight ♪
688
00:19:10,066 --> 00:19:13,193
[Paul] Nowadays, the sex
689
00:19:10,066 --> 00:19:13,193
industry is mostly online.
690
00:19:13,193 --> 00:19:15,780
Recently, I thought
691
00:19:13,193 --> 00:19:15,780
I'd try paying for an escort,
692
00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:17,531
especially when I saw
693
00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:17,531
a porn model
694
00:19:17,531 --> 00:19:19,784
advertising his services.
695
00:19:19,784 --> 00:19:21,285
Before our interview,
696
00:19:19,784 --> 00:19:21,285
I realized
697
00:19:21,285 --> 00:19:23,329
I didn't know
698
00:19:21,285 --> 00:19:23,329
anything about Ben.
699
00:19:23,329 --> 00:19:26,540
First off, Ben, and I, I'm
700
00:19:23,329 --> 00:19:26,540
assuming Ben is your real name.
701
00:19:26,540 --> 00:19:28,084
Yes. [laughs]
702
00:19:28,084 --> 00:19:30,670
Which, which do you enjoy
703
00:19:28,084 --> 00:19:30,670
more, escorting or porn?
704
00:19:30,670 --> 00:19:32,839
Um, probably
705
00:19:30,670 --> 00:19:32,839
escorting, definitely.
706
00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:35,174
So, porn is,
707
00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:35,174
porn has its moments.
708
00:19:35,174 --> 00:19:36,968
I think promotion
709
00:19:35,174 --> 00:19:36,968
in porn is fun,
710
00:19:36,968 --> 00:19:38,302
but when you're
711
00:19:36,968 --> 00:19:38,302
actually filming it,
712
00:19:38,302 --> 00:19:39,679
it can be a nightmare.
713
00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:41,472
How hard to you think
714
00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:41,472
it is to get a group
715
00:19:41,472 --> 00:19:43,599
of gorgeous people
716
00:19:41,472 --> 00:19:43,599
in a room and fuck?
717
00:19:43,599 --> 00:19:47,103
And you'd be surprised.
718
00:19:43,599 --> 00:19:47,103
[laughs]
719
00:19:47,103 --> 00:19:49,438
[Paul] As I said, my list
720
00:19:47,103 --> 00:19:49,438
is mainly chronological,
721
00:19:49,438 --> 00:19:52,316
but I want to talk to Ben
722
00:19:49,438 --> 00:19:52,316
at this point in the story,
723
00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:54,360
because my first
724
00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:54,360
paid job in films
725
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:56,737
was also in
726
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:56,737
the porn industry.
727
00:19:56,737 --> 00:19:58,739
When I got to England
728
00:19:56,737 --> 00:19:58,739
I had no money,
729
00:19:58,739 --> 00:19:59,824
I was trying
730
00:19:58,739 --> 00:19:59,824
to get into films,
731
00:19:59,824 --> 00:20:01,075
and I was sort of editing
732
00:20:01,075 --> 00:20:02,702
just round the corner
733
00:20:01,075 --> 00:20:02,702
here in Soho.
734
00:20:02,702 --> 00:20:04,912
I wandered into
735
00:20:02,702 --> 00:20:04,912
a gay sex cinema
736
00:20:04,912 --> 00:20:06,580
that was just downstairs,
737
00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:08,541
and I got talking
738
00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:08,541
to the owner.
739
00:20:08,541 --> 00:20:10,292
He used to be tipped off
740
00:20:08,541 --> 00:20:10,292
by the Police
741
00:20:10,292 --> 00:20:11,711
-when there was a raid.
742
00:20:10,292 --> 00:20:11,711
-Okay.
743
00:20:11,711 --> 00:20:13,171
And in those days,
744
00:20:13,171 --> 00:20:15,339
they weren't allowed
745
00:20:13,171 --> 00:20:15,339
to show anybody coming.
746
00:20:15,339 --> 00:20:16,883
So, he used to pay me
747
00:20:16,883 --> 00:20:19,677
to cut out all the cum shots
748
00:20:16,883 --> 00:20:19,677
before a raid.
749
00:20:19,677 --> 00:20:21,762
Then he'd bring them all up,
750
00:20:19,677 --> 00:20:21,762
and I'd put them all back.
751
00:20:21,762 --> 00:20:22,722
[laughs]
752
00:20:22,722 --> 00:20:24,098
Eventually, he sort of said,
753
00:20:24,098 --> 00:20:25,933
"Look, do you want
754
00:20:24,098 --> 00:20:25,933
to work the weekends?"
755
00:20:25,933 --> 00:20:30,437
So, I ended up working
756
00:20:25,933 --> 00:20:30,437
in a gay sex shop in Soho.
757
00:20:30,437 --> 00:20:33,482
♪ [funky music playing] ♪
758
00:20:33,482 --> 00:20:35,902
There was a little front bit
759
00:20:33,482 --> 00:20:35,902
with magazines.
760
00:20:35,902 --> 00:20:38,112
People would come in,
761
00:20:35,902 --> 00:20:38,112
they'd look at the magazines
762
00:20:38,112 --> 00:20:40,990
and mostly they'd pay,
763
00:20:38,112 --> 00:20:40,990
you know, five pounds,
764
00:20:40,990 --> 00:20:42,575
and they'd go out the back.
765
00:20:42,575 --> 00:20:44,911
And out the back,
766
00:20:42,575 --> 00:20:44,911
there were 20-odd seats,
767
00:20:44,911 --> 00:20:46,579
a little projection booth.
768
00:20:46,579 --> 00:20:48,706
It was packed, thirty,
769
00:20:46,579 --> 00:20:48,706
forty people
770
00:20:48,706 --> 00:20:50,457
crammed into
771
00:20:48,706 --> 00:20:50,457
this little place.
772
00:20:50,457 --> 00:20:52,752
And it was mainly
773
00:20:50,457 --> 00:20:52,752
an excuse to have sex.
774
00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:57,297
Do you think gay men
775
00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:57,297
are too fixated on sex?
776
00:20:57,297 --> 00:20:59,633
Ah yeah, definitely.
777
00:20:57,297 --> 00:20:59,633
[laughs]
778
00:20:59,633 --> 00:21:02,261
I don't think sex is the
779
00:20:59,633 --> 00:21:02,261
most important thing though.
780
00:21:02,261 --> 00:21:04,222
What is the most
781
00:21:02,261 --> 00:21:04,222
important thing, then?
782
00:21:04,222 --> 00:21:06,057
Um, well, having someone
783
00:21:04,222 --> 00:21:06,057
that you care about
784
00:21:06,057 --> 00:21:08,226
or having, you know,
785
00:21:06,057 --> 00:21:08,226
ah, the people around you
786
00:21:08,226 --> 00:21:09,643
in your life,
787
00:21:08,226 --> 00:21:09,643
you know what I mean?
788
00:21:09,643 --> 00:21:11,311
Good friends, um,
789
00:21:09,643 --> 00:21:11,311
you know, your friends,
790
00:21:11,311 --> 00:21:12,730
or like your family.
791
00:21:12,730 --> 00:21:15,566
[film projector whirring]
792
00:21:15,566 --> 00:21:16,943
[Paul] I mean, there were
793
00:21:15,566 --> 00:21:16,943
all sorts of crazy people
794
00:21:16,943 --> 00:21:18,569
that came in.
795
00:21:18,569 --> 00:21:20,113
There were, sort of,
796
00:21:18,569 --> 00:21:20,113
mayors that would draw up
797
00:21:20,113 --> 00:21:21,906
in their chauffeur-driven
798
00:21:20,113 --> 00:21:21,906
limousines,
799
00:21:21,906 --> 00:21:23,866
there were arms dealers
800
00:21:21,906 --> 00:21:23,866
from abroad,
801
00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:25,576
there were lawyers,
802
00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:25,576
there were gardeners,
803
00:21:25,576 --> 00:21:28,746
doctors, accountants...
804
00:21:28,746 --> 00:21:30,248
The accountant,
805
00:21:28,746 --> 00:21:30,248
the reason he's on the list,
806
00:21:30,248 --> 00:21:32,125
is he had an enormous dick.
807
00:21:30,248 --> 00:21:32,125
[laughs]
808
00:21:32,125 --> 00:21:34,210
It's funny because
809
00:21:32,125 --> 00:21:34,210
I've met several accountants,
810
00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:35,335
and they all seem
811
00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:35,335
to have enormous dicks.
812
00:21:35,335 --> 00:21:37,088
I don't know why.
813
00:21:37,088 --> 00:21:39,548
And the other thing is,
814
00:21:37,088 --> 00:21:39,548
I stayed the night with him,
815
00:21:39,548 --> 00:21:42,635
and the next morning,
816
00:21:39,548 --> 00:21:42,635
I remember it was the wedding
817
00:21:42,635 --> 00:21:44,178
of Prince Charles and Diana.
818
00:21:44,178 --> 00:21:47,098
♪ [orchestral music playing] ♪
819
00:21:49,934 --> 00:21:51,936
We started watching
820
00:21:49,934 --> 00:21:51,936
the wedding,
821
00:21:51,936 --> 00:21:54,688
and got distracted
822
00:21:51,936 --> 00:21:54,688
and ended up having sex
823
00:21:54,688 --> 00:21:56,899
while they were, the wedding
824
00:21:54,688 --> 00:21:56,899
was going on in the background.
825
00:21:56,899 --> 00:21:59,568
So, it was quite
826
00:21:56,899 --> 00:21:59,568
a memorable scene.
827
00:22:01,361 --> 00:22:03,114
I actually managed to get
828
00:22:01,361 --> 00:22:03,114
a bit closer to some
829
00:22:03,114 --> 00:22:05,491
Royal action
830
00:22:03,114 --> 00:22:05,491
shortly after this.
831
00:22:07,743 --> 00:22:09,996
He told me, when I asked
832
00:22:07,743 --> 00:22:09,996
what he did for a living,
833
00:22:09,996 --> 00:22:13,749
that he was a senior member
834
00:22:09,996 --> 00:22:13,749
of the Royal Household.
835
00:22:13,749 --> 00:22:15,251
I sort of fancied him,
836
00:22:15,251 --> 00:22:17,044
but when he suggested
837
00:22:15,251 --> 00:22:17,044
that I could come back
838
00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:20,047
and stay the night at his place
839
00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:20,047
at Buckingham Palace,
840
00:22:20,047 --> 00:22:23,259
I thought, this is a chance I,
841
00:22:20,047 --> 00:22:23,259
I've, I've got to say yes to.
842
00:22:25,552 --> 00:22:26,929
So, I was terribly excited.
843
00:22:26,929 --> 00:22:28,681
Sadly, it was
844
00:22:26,929 --> 00:22:28,681
a bit of a letdown,
845
00:22:28,681 --> 00:22:31,267
because we went into
846
00:22:28,681 --> 00:22:31,267
this little tiny side gate,
847
00:22:31,267 --> 00:22:35,021
and he had a small room
848
00:22:31,267 --> 00:22:35,021
with a single bed.
849
00:22:35,021 --> 00:22:36,772
I did stay the night, and I
850
00:22:35,021 --> 00:22:36,772
can remember, in the morning,
851
00:22:36,772 --> 00:22:38,232
we had a cup of tea,
852
00:22:38,232 --> 00:22:40,901
and he had a mismatched
853
00:22:38,232 --> 00:22:40,901
cup and saucer,
854
00:22:40,901 --> 00:22:42,611
which I thought was
855
00:22:40,901 --> 00:22:42,611
somehow totally wrong
856
00:22:42,611 --> 00:22:44,947
for Buckingham Palace.
857
00:22:44,947 --> 00:22:47,950
-[ska music playing]
858
00:22:44,947 --> 00:22:47,950
-♪ The air was thick
859
00:22:44,947 --> 00:22:47,950
with a smell of oppression ♪
860
00:22:47,950 --> 00:22:50,661
♪ The military joined
861
00:22:47,950 --> 00:22:50,661
with angry position ♪
862
00:22:50,661 --> 00:22:53,455
♪ The tension tight
863
00:22:50,661 --> 00:22:53,455
with the strain of repression ♪
864
00:22:53,455 --> 00:22:56,167
♪ Young blood boiling
865
00:22:53,455 --> 00:22:56,167
hot with aggression ♪
866
00:22:56,167 --> 00:22:57,710
♪ Jah war ♪
867
00:22:57,710 --> 00:22:59,128
[Paul] There was a skinhead
868
00:22:57,710 --> 00:22:59,128
I remember called Joe,
869
00:22:59,128 --> 00:23:00,462
Joe the skinhead.
870
00:23:00,462 --> 00:23:03,549
I met him in this
871
00:23:00,462 --> 00:23:03,549
ridiculous little custom
872
00:23:03,549 --> 00:23:04,508
that used to exist.
873
00:23:04,508 --> 00:23:06,344
Basically, in trains
874
00:23:06,344 --> 00:23:08,721
they had those little
875
00:23:06,344 --> 00:23:08,721
private carriages.
876
00:23:08,721 --> 00:23:11,640
-Do you remember those...?
877
00:23:08,721 --> 00:23:11,640
-Oh, where the doors
878
00:23:08,721 --> 00:23:11,640
open and, yeah, yeah.
879
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,477
-And people literally try
880
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,477
and have sex between stations.
881
00:23:15,477 --> 00:23:18,105
And this guy Joe, who
882
00:23:15,477 --> 00:23:18,105
was a very sexy skinhead,
883
00:23:18,105 --> 00:23:21,650
used to, sort of, ride round
884
00:23:18,105 --> 00:23:21,650
the trains all day long just,
885
00:23:21,650 --> 00:23:24,402
you know, it was completely
886
00:23:21,650 --> 00:23:24,402
bizarre but, um...
887
00:23:24,402 --> 00:23:25,863
[Chris] I didn't meet Joe.
888
00:23:25,863 --> 00:23:27,907
Wish I had met Joe, actually.
889
00:23:27,907 --> 00:23:29,783
Joe, Joe sound great.
890
00:23:29,783 --> 00:23:30,868
♪ Jah war ♪
891
00:23:30,868 --> 00:23:32,661
♪ Fighting fighting ♪
892
00:23:32,661 --> 00:23:36,414
-♪ Jah war ♪
893
00:23:32,661 --> 00:23:36,414
-♪ Too close frightening ♪
894
00:23:36,414 --> 00:23:38,125
[Paul] As the 80s wore on,
895
00:23:38,125 --> 00:23:40,669
I found I was meeting
896
00:23:38,125 --> 00:23:40,669
more and more gay skinheads.
897
00:23:40,669 --> 00:23:43,089
[Chris] I was part of that.
898
00:23:40,669 --> 00:23:43,089
I mean, I loved it.
899
00:23:43,089 --> 00:23:46,175
I mean, I shaved my hair off
900
00:23:43,089 --> 00:23:46,175
as quickly as I could.
901
00:23:46,175 --> 00:23:49,636
Ah, you know,
902
00:23:46,175 --> 00:23:49,636
Bomber Jacket, 501s,
903
00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:52,806
Doc Martens,
904
00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:52,806
piercings, I loved it.
905
00:23:52,806 --> 00:23:55,517
It was a fantastic image;
906
00:23:52,806 --> 00:23:55,517
I was a complicated image.
907
00:23:55,517 --> 00:23:58,729
Because it wasn't too long
908
00:23:55,517 --> 00:23:58,729
after the whole National Front
909
00:23:58,729 --> 00:24:01,607
kind of revival, and there
910
00:23:58,729 --> 00:24:01,607
was definitely a politics
911
00:24:01,607 --> 00:24:03,067
lying underneath it, yeah.
912
00:24:03,067 --> 00:24:05,152
There was
913
00:24:03,067 --> 00:24:05,152
a subversion going on
914
00:24:05,152 --> 00:24:07,487
of a, of a,
915
00:24:05,152 --> 00:24:07,487
of a neo fascist image.
916
00:24:18,332 --> 00:24:19,959
[Paul] He came in,
917
00:24:18,332 --> 00:24:19,959
he was about eighteen,
918
00:24:19,959 --> 00:24:21,627
very good looking,
919
00:24:21,627 --> 00:24:24,171
and in fact,
920
00:24:21,627 --> 00:24:24,171
had posed as a model
921
00:24:24,171 --> 00:24:27,591
for some of the magazines
922
00:24:24,171 --> 00:24:27,591
that we sold in the shop.
923
00:24:27,591 --> 00:24:28,884
And when he came in,
924
00:24:27,591 --> 00:24:28,884
I recognized him,
925
00:24:28,884 --> 00:24:30,386
and thought, "Wow.
926
00:24:30,386 --> 00:24:32,179
You've been in one
927
00:24:30,386 --> 00:24:32,179
of those magazines."
928
00:24:32,179 --> 00:24:33,973
And what was even nicer
929
00:24:32,179 --> 00:24:33,973
was he came back with me.
930
00:24:37,017 --> 00:24:39,686
As part of this,
931
00:24:37,017 --> 00:24:39,686
I went back to try and find
932
00:24:39,686 --> 00:24:42,064
the magazine
933
00:24:39,686 --> 00:24:42,064
where he'd appeared.
934
00:24:47,194 --> 00:24:50,239
This is a box
935
00:24:47,194 --> 00:24:50,239
of magazines from the 70s,
936
00:24:50,239 --> 00:24:52,241
which have been pandered away,
937
00:24:52,241 --> 00:24:53,826
and to be quite
938
00:24:52,241 --> 00:24:53,826
honest with you,
939
00:24:53,826 --> 00:24:55,619
the time has come
940
00:24:53,826 --> 00:24:55,619
when they've got to go.
941
00:24:55,619 --> 00:24:56,745
[Paul] Okay.
942
00:24:56,745 --> 00:24:57,913
I don't really
943
00:24:56,745 --> 00:24:57,913
want to put them
944
00:24:57,913 --> 00:24:59,332
into the waste paper bins.
945
00:24:59,332 --> 00:25:01,208
I'm sure the waste
946
00:24:59,332 --> 00:25:01,208
paper bin sorters
947
00:25:01,208 --> 00:25:02,918
will have a bit
948
00:25:01,208 --> 00:25:02,918
of fun with them,
949
00:25:02,918 --> 00:25:03,961
but I'd rather not.
950
00:25:06,130 --> 00:25:07,714
[Paul] The guy, Ian,
951
00:25:06,130 --> 00:25:07,714
my friend, was actually,
952
00:25:07,714 --> 00:25:10,343
I think he was in
953
00:25:07,714 --> 00:25:10,343
the Zipper Magazine.
954
00:25:10,343 --> 00:25:11,927
[Alan] Well, there was
955
00:25:10,343 --> 00:25:11,927
nothing in the magazine
956
00:25:11,927 --> 00:25:13,429
that you could object to,
957
00:25:13,429 --> 00:25:17,599
I mean, young men
958
00:25:13,429 --> 00:25:17,599
in very large, voluminous,
959
00:25:17,599 --> 00:25:19,643
ah, swimming trunks,
960
00:25:19,643 --> 00:25:22,480
that you couldn't have seen
961
00:25:19,643 --> 00:25:22,480
the outline of a cock
962
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:23,772
even if you had wanted to.
963
00:25:23,772 --> 00:25:24,898
It just wasn't there.
964
00:25:27,901 --> 00:25:29,987
[Paul] I didn't find
965
00:25:27,901 --> 00:25:29,987
the magazine with Ian in it.
966
00:25:29,987 --> 00:25:32,072
But it did give me
967
00:25:29,987 --> 00:25:32,072
some free porn.
968
00:25:32,072 --> 00:25:33,824
And the search gave me a chance
969
00:25:32,072 --> 00:25:33,824
to meet one of the men
970
00:25:33,824 --> 00:25:36,076
at the heart
971
00:25:33,824 --> 00:25:36,076
of gay publishing.
972
00:25:36,076 --> 00:25:38,412
[Bell] This magazine?
973
00:25:38,412 --> 00:25:40,331
That was the one?
974
00:25:40,331 --> 00:25:43,125
-[Paul] So, that's the actual
975
00:25:40,331 --> 00:25:43,125
very first Him magazine?
976
00:25:40,331 --> 00:25:43,125
-It is.
977
00:25:43,125 --> 00:25:44,626
And that was the start
978
00:25:44,626 --> 00:25:47,880
of the real commercial side
979
00:25:44,626 --> 00:25:47,880
of gay magazines.
980
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,217
We got distribution
981
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,217
through W.H. Smith's
982
00:25:51,217 --> 00:25:52,843
after a huge battle.
983
00:25:56,472 --> 00:25:58,307
[Bell] We were printing
984
00:25:56,472 --> 00:25:58,307
at that time
985
00:25:58,307 --> 00:26:01,727
sixteen thousand eight hundred
986
00:25:58,307 --> 00:26:01,727
copies each month.
987
00:26:01,727 --> 00:26:03,229
On issue Number 8,
988
00:26:03,229 --> 00:26:06,399
the police took the whole
989
00:26:03,229 --> 00:26:06,399
lot from the printers.
990
00:26:06,399 --> 00:26:07,649
[Paul] Why?
991
00:26:07,649 --> 00:26:09,860
[Bell] It had an article
992
00:26:07,649 --> 00:26:09,860
about a masseur
993
00:26:09,860 --> 00:26:11,569
who was a rent boy.
994
00:26:11,569 --> 00:26:13,613
[Paul] So, this is not even
995
00:26:11,569 --> 00:26:13,613
for a picture they seized it?
996
00:26:13,613 --> 00:26:14,781
No.
997
00:26:14,781 --> 00:26:16,283
The magazine
998
00:26:14,781 --> 00:26:16,283
had pictures in it.
999
00:26:16,283 --> 00:26:17,951
-[Paul] Right.
1000
00:26:16,283 --> 00:26:17,951
-[Bell] And, and, ah...
1001
00:26:17,951 --> 00:26:19,995
But at the time you couldn't
1002
00:26:17,951 --> 00:26:19,995
put nude pictures in.
1003
00:26:19,995 --> 00:26:22,331
At one stage in 1976,
1004
00:26:22,331 --> 00:26:25,042
we were actually raided
1005
00:26:22,331 --> 00:26:25,042
every single week.
1006
00:26:25,042 --> 00:26:26,293
[Paul] Did you get angry
1007
00:26:25,042 --> 00:26:26,293
about it?
1008
00:26:26,293 --> 00:26:27,627
[Bell] I think it was more
1009
00:26:26,293 --> 00:26:27,627
a driver
1010
00:26:27,627 --> 00:26:29,380
in so much as,
1011
00:26:27,627 --> 00:26:29,380
"You can't do this."
1012
00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:33,008
What right have you got
1013
00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:33,008
to come to seize magazines
1014
00:26:33,008 --> 00:26:34,510
'cause they're gay?
1015
00:26:37,930 --> 00:26:41,100
[Paul] The cinema club
1016
00:26:37,930 --> 00:26:41,100
was also raided lots of times.
1017
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:42,893
When the owner was arrested,
1018
00:26:42,893 --> 00:26:44,853
I actually ended up running
1019
00:26:42,893 --> 00:26:44,853
the cinema club for a bit,
1020
00:26:44,853 --> 00:26:48,606
and paying protection
1021
00:26:44,853 --> 00:26:48,606
money to the local mafia.
1022
00:26:48,606 --> 00:26:51,527
Once a week, I would meet
1023
00:26:48,606 --> 00:26:51,527
this gangster character in a,
1024
00:26:51,527 --> 00:26:52,778
another Soho pub.
1025
00:26:52,778 --> 00:26:54,363
We literally went
1026
00:26:52,778 --> 00:26:54,363
into the toilet
1027
00:26:54,363 --> 00:26:56,698
and I would hand him
1028
00:26:54,363 --> 00:26:56,698
a brown envelope with
1029
00:26:56,698 --> 00:26:58,616
five hundred pounds,
1030
00:26:56,698 --> 00:26:58,616
a thousand pounds.
1031
00:26:58,616 --> 00:27:00,286
Suddenly I would be
1032
00:26:58,616 --> 00:27:00,286
with all these characters
1033
00:27:00,286 --> 00:27:02,704
that looked as if they'd
1034
00:27:00,286 --> 00:27:02,704
stepped out of some
1035
00:27:02,704 --> 00:27:04,790
crazy gangster movie.
1036
00:27:04,790 --> 00:27:08,586
[police sirens wailing]
1037
00:27:08,586 --> 00:27:10,421
There was
1038
00:27:08,586 --> 00:27:10,421
a genuinely dark side
1039
00:27:10,421 --> 00:27:12,630
to my time
1040
00:27:10,421 --> 00:27:12,630
at the cinema club.
1041
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:14,716
[film projector whirring]
1042
00:27:14,716 --> 00:27:16,594
The real thing that
1043
00:27:14,716 --> 00:27:16,594
bought it home to me
1044
00:27:16,594 --> 00:27:19,472
was the death of one
1045
00:27:16,594 --> 00:27:19,472
of the rent boys
1046
00:27:19,472 --> 00:27:21,348
that I got to know.
1047
00:27:22,891 --> 00:27:24,768
He used to come into
1048
00:27:22,891 --> 00:27:24,768
the shop quite regularly,
1049
00:27:24,768 --> 00:27:28,021
he would bring his punters in,
1050
00:27:24,768 --> 00:27:28,021
do them out the back.
1051
00:27:28,021 --> 00:27:30,065
We had a bit of
1052
00:27:28,021 --> 00:27:30,065
a play one time...
1053
00:27:31,442 --> 00:27:34,861
Sadly, he stopped
1054
00:27:31,442 --> 00:27:34,861
coming to the club.
1055
00:27:34,861 --> 00:27:36,905
[film projector whirring]
1056
00:27:36,905 --> 00:27:40,451
And, then, a few years later,
1057
00:27:36,905 --> 00:27:40,451
ah, I was reading a book
1058
00:27:40,451 --> 00:27:43,245
about the murderer
1059
00:27:40,451 --> 00:27:43,245
Dennis Neilson,
1060
00:27:43,245 --> 00:27:45,956
and discovered that
1061
00:27:43,245 --> 00:27:45,956
he was one of the victims.
1062
00:27:49,376 --> 00:27:52,588
Dennis Neilson killed
1063
00:27:49,376 --> 00:27:52,588
sixteen young gay men.
1064
00:27:52,588 --> 00:27:56,883
Nobody noticed
1065
00:27:52,588 --> 00:27:56,883
a serial killer was at work.
1066
00:27:56,883 --> 00:27:59,345
And in fact, the only way that
1067
00:27:56,883 --> 00:27:59,345
he was eventually discovered
1068
00:27:59,345 --> 00:28:03,182
was the fact his drains
1069
00:27:59,345 --> 00:28:03,182
were blocked with body parts.
1070
00:28:03,182 --> 00:28:06,143
How can sixteen
1071
00:28:03,182 --> 00:28:06,143
people just disappear?
1072
00:28:06,143 --> 00:28:08,604
Not even a missing
1073
00:28:06,143 --> 00:28:08,604
person's report.
1074
00:28:08,604 --> 00:28:10,606
I'd like to think
1075
00:28:08,604 --> 00:28:10,606
that couldn't happen today.
1076
00:28:10,606 --> 00:28:12,399
I don't know.
1077
00:28:14,943 --> 00:28:16,529
I stopped working
1078
00:28:14,943 --> 00:28:16,529
in the sex shop
1079
00:28:16,529 --> 00:28:18,947
when I got work
1080
00:28:16,529 --> 00:28:18,947
as a real film editor
1081
00:28:18,947 --> 00:28:21,908
and I started to explore
1082
00:28:18,947 --> 00:28:21,908
places outside London.
1083
00:28:21,908 --> 00:28:24,036
♪ [electronic music] ♪
1084
00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:26,205
One night, I went up
1085
00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:26,205
to a club in Birmingham.
1086
00:28:26,205 --> 00:28:28,499
♪
1087
00:28:30,083 --> 00:28:31,627
[Paul] I looked at John,
1088
00:28:31,627 --> 00:28:33,879
and I guess it was just
1089
00:28:31,627 --> 00:28:33,879
love at first sight.
1090
00:28:39,468 --> 00:28:41,761
John, we'd only met
1091
00:28:39,468 --> 00:28:41,761
three or four times,
1092
00:28:41,761 --> 00:28:43,556
and he'd come down
1093
00:28:41,761 --> 00:28:43,556
to London.
1094
00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:45,683
And suddenly I said,
1095
00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:45,683
"Look, come and live with me."
1096
00:28:45,683 --> 00:28:48,310
He wasn't sure, and he came
1097
00:28:45,683 --> 00:28:48,310
down just to sort of
1098
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:50,437
wander round for a day
1099
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:50,437
to think about it.
1100
00:28:50,437 --> 00:28:52,981
And I didn't know he was
1101
00:28:50,437 --> 00:28:52,981
coming down to London.
1102
00:28:54,858 --> 00:28:57,819
I got on the Underground,
1103
00:28:54,858 --> 00:28:57,819
and he was sat opposite me.
1104
00:28:57,819 --> 00:29:00,280
He just said that
1105
00:28:57,819 --> 00:29:00,280
was obviously fate.
1106
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,116
The following week,
1107
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,116
we got a little flat together.
1108
00:29:06,203 --> 00:29:08,997
For the first time, I was
1109
00:29:06,203 --> 00:29:08,997
in a domestic environment.
1110
00:29:08,997 --> 00:29:10,957
I, I think I went
1111
00:29:08,997 --> 00:29:10,957
and bought recipe books
1112
00:29:10,957 --> 00:29:13,793
and tried to cook dinners
1113
00:29:10,957 --> 00:29:13,793
and things like that.
1114
00:29:15,921 --> 00:29:17,506
[Paul] How did you actually
1115
00:29:15,921 --> 00:29:17,506
meet your partner?
1116
00:29:17,506 --> 00:29:19,425
He was on a tube train
1117
00:29:17,506 --> 00:29:19,425
and I was on a tube train,
1118
00:29:19,425 --> 00:29:20,884
and we, I followed him home.
1119
00:29:20,884 --> 00:29:22,844
Wow. [laughs]
1120
00:29:22,844 --> 00:29:24,555
My father,
1121
00:29:22,844 --> 00:29:24,555
one morning said to me,
1122
00:29:24,555 --> 00:29:27,015
"Are you mixed in
1123
00:29:24,555 --> 00:29:27,015
with this homosexuality lark?",
1124
00:29:27,015 --> 00:29:28,517
and I said, "Yes."
1125
00:29:28,517 --> 00:29:30,269
And he said, "Well, why?"
1126
00:29:30,269 --> 00:29:32,354
And I said, "Well, that
1127
00:29:30,269 --> 00:29:32,354
was the way I was born."
1128
00:29:32,354 --> 00:29:34,022
And that was the end of it.
1129
00:29:34,022 --> 00:29:37,025
But my father, he always said
1130
00:29:34,022 --> 00:29:37,025
about my partner, Colin...
1131
00:29:37,025 --> 00:29:38,860
"You got a good one
1132
00:29:37,025 --> 00:29:38,860
there, mate.
1133
00:29:38,860 --> 00:29:40,820
Don't you screw it up."
1134
00:29:43,699 --> 00:29:46,368
[Paul] For the first few
1135
00:29:43,699 --> 00:29:46,368
months, it was absolute bliss
1136
00:29:46,368 --> 00:29:48,370
and wonderful,
1137
00:29:46,368 --> 00:29:48,370
and we were in love.
1138
00:29:48,370 --> 00:29:51,790
And then the difficult question
1139
00:29:48,370 --> 00:29:51,790
of monogamy reared its head.
1140
00:29:54,209 --> 00:29:56,754
Hampstead Heath was
1141
00:29:54,209 --> 00:29:56,754
literally on our doorstep,
1142
00:29:56,754 --> 00:29:59,798
and Hempstead Heath is
1143
00:29:56,754 --> 00:29:59,798
probably the most famous
1144
00:29:59,798 --> 00:30:02,884
cruising ground
1145
00:29:59,798 --> 00:30:02,884
in the United Kingdom.
1146
00:30:04,052 --> 00:30:06,012
-[Paul] Monogamy...
1147
00:30:04,052 --> 00:30:06,012
-Yeah. [laughs]
1148
00:30:06,012 --> 00:30:08,682
[Paul] Do you think any gay
1149
00:30:06,012 --> 00:30:08,682
gay people can be monogamous?
1150
00:30:08,682 --> 00:30:10,434
Um, they can,
1151
00:30:10,434 --> 00:30:13,853
but generally, I think it's more
1152
00:30:10,434 --> 00:30:13,853
healthier in a relationship,
1153
00:30:13,853 --> 00:30:17,065
because generally I think,
1154
00:30:13,853 --> 00:30:17,065
like, guys are guys,
1155
00:30:17,065 --> 00:30:19,818
and lots of guys have trouble
1156
00:30:17,065 --> 00:30:19,818
keeping it in their pants.
1157
00:30:19,818 --> 00:30:23,322
So, I think it's best
1158
00:30:19,818 --> 00:30:23,322
to be open about it.
1159
00:30:23,322 --> 00:30:25,699
[Tom] What really made me
1160
00:30:23,322 --> 00:30:25,699
come to London
1161
00:30:25,699 --> 00:30:27,951
was because
1162
00:30:25,699 --> 00:30:27,951
I discovered the park.
1163
00:30:30,036 --> 00:30:33,290
So, that became my
1164
00:30:30,036 --> 00:30:33,290
social life a little bit,
1165
00:30:33,290 --> 00:30:36,794
-but it also became
1166
00:30:33,290 --> 00:30:36,794
my sexual adventure land.
1167
00:30:33,290 --> 00:30:36,794
-Yeah.
1168
00:30:39,672 --> 00:30:41,548
[Tom] These kind
1169
00:30:39,672 --> 00:30:41,548
of cruising spaces,
1170
00:30:41,548 --> 00:30:44,343
you just go down
1171
00:30:41,548 --> 00:30:44,343
to what you really feel.
1172
00:30:48,514 --> 00:30:50,098
[Paul] Eventually John
1173
00:30:48,514 --> 00:30:50,098
confessed
1174
00:30:50,098 --> 00:30:51,308
that he'd been up
1175
00:30:50,098 --> 00:30:51,308
on the Heath,
1176
00:30:51,308 --> 00:30:53,185
and I was hurt and upset.
1177
00:30:53,185 --> 00:30:55,228
I decided, well, if he's going
1178
00:30:53,185 --> 00:30:55,228
to do that, then I should.
1179
00:30:55,228 --> 00:30:57,897
And I went up
1180
00:30:55,228 --> 00:30:57,897
and met a guy there.
1181
00:30:57,897 --> 00:31:01,401
He was a little short guy,
1182
00:30:57,897 --> 00:31:01,401
hence Little John.
1183
00:31:01,401 --> 00:31:04,571
It turned out he was
1184
00:31:01,401 --> 00:31:04,571
having a party that weekend.
1185
00:31:04,571 --> 00:31:07,032
And I told John about it,
1186
00:31:04,571 --> 00:31:07,032
and I was honest.
1187
00:31:07,032 --> 00:31:08,701
And I said how we'd met,
1188
00:31:08,701 --> 00:31:10,703
and I suggested that
1189
00:31:08,701 --> 00:31:10,703
maybe we should go
1190
00:31:10,703 --> 00:31:13,622
to this party together.
1191
00:31:13,622 --> 00:31:16,041
We met lots of friends,
1192
00:31:13,622 --> 00:31:16,041
we had a really good time.
1193
00:31:16,041 --> 00:31:21,046
It somehow made the
1194
00:31:16,041 --> 00:31:21,046
infidelities less painful,
1195
00:31:21,046 --> 00:31:24,090
and it just somehow led us into
1196
00:31:21,046 --> 00:31:24,090
a much more relaxed attitude
1197
00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:26,802
to the whole idea
1198
00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:26,802
of an open relationship.
1199
00:31:29,471 --> 00:31:33,308
[Paul] If you meet a guy,
1200
00:31:29,471 --> 00:31:33,308
do you expect it be monogamous?
1201
00:31:33,308 --> 00:31:35,894
[laughs]
1202
00:31:35,894 --> 00:31:37,521
[Raglan] The whole idea
1203
00:31:35,894 --> 00:31:37,521
of monogamy,
1204
00:31:37,521 --> 00:31:40,858
that's based on that
1205
00:31:37,521 --> 00:31:40,858
heterosexual marriage model
1206
00:31:40,858 --> 00:31:42,818
that you partner in this way,
1207
00:31:42,818 --> 00:31:44,862
and this is the purpose
1208
00:31:42,818 --> 00:31:44,862
of the relationship...
1209
00:31:44,862 --> 00:31:46,655
to do that.
1210
00:31:46,655 --> 00:31:50,367
Whereas, you know, there's this
1211
00:31:46,655 --> 00:31:50,367
incredible liberty and freedom
1212
00:31:50,367 --> 00:31:51,910
and exemption as a gay man
1213
00:31:51,910 --> 00:31:54,454
and in gay
1214
00:31:51,910 --> 00:31:54,454
relationships to have,
1215
00:31:54,454 --> 00:31:56,122
like, why do we
1216
00:31:54,454 --> 00:31:56,122
have to model that?
1217
00:31:56,122 --> 00:31:57,791
It's not relevant.
1218
00:32:00,711 --> 00:32:02,796
[Paul] John had met Richard
1219
00:32:00,711 --> 00:32:02,796
on Hampstead Heath.
1220
00:32:02,796 --> 00:32:05,799
And became a good
1221
00:32:02,796 --> 00:32:05,799
friend of both of ours.
1222
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:07,384
Richard was from
1223
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:07,384
the North of England.
1224
00:32:07,384 --> 00:32:09,887
He'd grown up
1225
00:32:07,384 --> 00:32:09,887
in a mining town,
1226
00:32:09,887 --> 00:32:11,805
and he'd left school
1227
00:32:09,887 --> 00:32:11,805
when he was quite young,
1228
00:32:11,805 --> 00:32:13,306
and he joined the Navy.
1229
00:32:13,306 --> 00:32:15,058
And he was very much
1230
00:32:13,306 --> 00:32:15,058
a Navy boy, you know,
1231
00:32:15,058 --> 00:32:16,810
God, Queen and Country.
1232
00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:19,479
Except for this one slight
1233
00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:19,479
problem was that he was gay.
1234
00:32:21,189 --> 00:32:23,024
[Richard] There was this
1235
00:32:21,189 --> 00:32:23,024
organization called the SIB
1236
00:32:23,024 --> 00:32:26,737
that was specifically, ah,
1237
00:32:23,024 --> 00:32:26,737
targeted gay people,
1238
00:32:26,737 --> 00:32:28,321
ah, in the Navy.
1239
00:32:28,321 --> 00:32:30,365
And if they admitted being
1240
00:32:28,321 --> 00:32:30,365
gay or if they were caught
1241
00:32:30,365 --> 00:32:32,992
doing gay things,
1242
00:32:30,365 --> 00:32:32,992
whatever they are,
1243
00:32:32,992 --> 00:32:34,327
they were kicked out.
1244
00:32:34,327 --> 00:32:35,662
It was like
1245
00:32:34,327 --> 00:32:35,662
an internal police force.
1246
00:32:35,662 --> 00:32:37,122
-Is that right?
1247
00:32:35,662 --> 00:32:37,122
-Yes.
1248
00:32:37,122 --> 00:32:38,874
Because you were still
1249
00:32:37,122 --> 00:32:38,874
in the Navy when we met,
1250
00:32:38,874 --> 00:32:40,250
-weren't you?
1251
00:32:38,874 --> 00:32:40,250
-Yes, yes.
1252
00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:42,085
Yeah.
1253
00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:42,085
And I remember all that and...
1254
00:32:42,085 --> 00:32:44,922
I just couldn't take the whole
1255
00:32:42,085 --> 00:32:44,922
Navy thing seriously really.
1256
00:32:44,922 --> 00:32:46,214
Well,
1257
00:32:44,922 --> 00:32:46,214
I, I remember actually,
1258
00:32:46,214 --> 00:32:47,758
one of the first times
1259
00:32:46,214 --> 00:32:47,758
I met you, Paul,
1260
00:32:47,758 --> 00:32:50,552
you referred to my
1261
00:32:47,758 --> 00:32:50,552
uniform as my costume.
1262
00:32:50,552 --> 00:32:53,346
And all these years later
1263
00:32:50,552 --> 00:32:53,346
I've not forgotten that,
1264
00:32:53,346 --> 00:32:54,932
that comment.
1265
00:32:53,346 --> 00:32:54,932
[laughs]
1266
00:32:54,932 --> 00:32:57,643
And I, I was amazed
1267
00:32:54,932 --> 00:32:57,643
at how paranoid you were.
1268
00:32:57,643 --> 00:32:59,895
Yes, because you never
1269
00:32:57,643 --> 00:32:59,895
knew when the SIB
1270
00:32:59,895 --> 00:33:02,230
would come knocking
1271
00:32:59,895 --> 00:33:02,230
at your door, basically.
1272
00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:04,858
Yeah, I mean,
1273
00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:04,858
that people were thrown out,
1274
00:33:04,858 --> 00:33:06,359
-weren't they?
1275
00:33:04,858 --> 00:33:06,359
-Yes, yeah. All the time.
1276
00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:07,945
Overnight they
1277
00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:07,945
lost their friends,
1278
00:33:07,945 --> 00:33:09,404
they were outed
1279
00:33:07,945 --> 00:33:09,404
to their families,
1280
00:33:09,404 --> 00:33:11,114
they lost their income,
1281
00:33:11,114 --> 00:33:14,200
and very often they were halfway
1282
00:33:11,114 --> 00:33:14,200
through a three-year training,
1283
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,662
and they were just
1284
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,662
thrown out unceremoniously.
1285
00:33:16,662 --> 00:33:17,830
Pretty brutal.
1286
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:19,581
♪ [ska music playing] ♪
1287
00:33:21,416 --> 00:33:22,626
[Chris] I was cruising
1288
00:33:21,416 --> 00:33:22,626
one night
1289
00:33:22,626 --> 00:33:24,753
on Clapham Common
1290
00:33:22,626 --> 00:33:24,753
in the 80s,
1291
00:33:24,753 --> 00:33:27,631
and I remember
1292
00:33:24,753 --> 00:33:27,631
watching this man,
1293
00:33:27,631 --> 00:33:32,302
he must have been about
1294
00:33:27,631 --> 00:33:32,302
seventy-five, even eighty,
1295
00:33:32,302 --> 00:33:35,764
trying to run across
1296
00:33:32,302 --> 00:33:35,764
Clapham Common.
1297
00:33:35,764 --> 00:33:40,101
This gay old man,
1298
00:33:35,764 --> 00:33:40,101
chased by a Police van
1299
00:33:40,101 --> 00:33:42,228
that was hunting him
1300
00:33:40,101 --> 00:33:42,228
for sport.
1301
00:33:42,228 --> 00:33:45,106
[police siren wailing]
1302
00:33:47,860 --> 00:33:49,402
[Paul] I'd never been
1303
00:33:47,860 --> 00:33:49,402
that involved
1304
00:33:49,402 --> 00:33:51,404
with the growing
1305
00:33:49,402 --> 00:33:51,404
gay rights movement,
1306
00:33:51,404 --> 00:33:54,073
but when Channel Four
1307
00:33:51,404 --> 00:33:54,073
launched in 1982,
1308
00:33:54,073 --> 00:33:56,743
I saw an opportunity to
1309
00:33:54,073 --> 00:33:56,743
make a program for gay people,
1310
00:33:56,743 --> 00:34:00,455
and plunged naively into
1311
00:33:56,743 --> 00:34:00,455
the world of gay politics.
1312
00:34:00,455 --> 00:34:03,458
This was the, ah,
1313
00:34:00,455 --> 00:34:03,458
headline that I saw
1314
00:34:03,458 --> 00:34:05,251
on the front page
1315
00:34:03,458 --> 00:34:05,251
of the Daily Mail.
1316
00:34:05,251 --> 00:34:06,753
An MP had demanded,
1317
00:34:06,753 --> 00:34:08,588
as a result of our
1318
00:34:06,753 --> 00:34:08,588
little program,
1319
00:34:08,588 --> 00:34:10,883
that Channel 4
1320
00:34:08,588 --> 00:34:10,883
be taken off the air.
1321
00:34:13,677 --> 00:34:16,722
[Paul] Anything gay seemed
1322
00:34:13,677 --> 00:34:16,722
to cause controversy back then.
1323
00:34:16,722 --> 00:34:20,350
When we were able
1324
00:34:16,722 --> 00:34:20,350
to publish nude photographs,
1325
00:34:20,350 --> 00:34:23,311
the angle of the dangle...
1326
00:34:23,311 --> 00:34:25,271
Explain that to me.
1327
00:34:23,311 --> 00:34:25,271
[laughs]
1328
00:34:25,271 --> 00:34:27,106
Ah, how to put it on film...
1329
00:34:27,106 --> 00:34:30,652
if a certain appendage
1330
00:34:27,106 --> 00:34:30,652
was more than a certain degree,
1331
00:34:30,652 --> 00:34:32,237
it was obscene.
1332
00:34:32,237 --> 00:34:33,780
[Paul] The angle of the
1333
00:34:32,237 --> 00:34:33,780
dangle, is that...?
1334
00:34:33,780 --> 00:34:36,241
Oh, absolutely.
1335
00:34:33,780 --> 00:34:36,241
It was very important.
1336
00:34:36,241 --> 00:34:39,160
And you always cut it off
1337
00:34:36,241 --> 00:34:39,160
on the way up,
1338
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,495
not on the way down.
1339
00:34:46,209 --> 00:34:47,753
[Paul] I went on to make
1340
00:34:46,209 --> 00:34:47,753
several other programs
1341
00:34:47,753 --> 00:34:48,837
for this new channel.
1342
00:34:50,797 --> 00:34:53,466
♪ [upbeat rock music] ♪
1343
00:34:57,345 --> 00:34:58,304
[screams]
1344
00:35:01,683 --> 00:35:03,351
And, of course,
1345
00:35:01,683 --> 00:35:03,351
invariably some of the people
1346
00:35:03,351 --> 00:35:04,811
I'd met through sex
1347
00:35:04,811 --> 00:35:06,939
became the subject
1348
00:35:04,811 --> 00:35:06,939
of these programs.
1349
00:35:10,191 --> 00:35:13,278
I wandered into
1350
00:35:10,191 --> 00:35:13,278
a very early leather bar
1351
00:35:13,278 --> 00:35:17,198
and there was this young guy
1352
00:35:13,278 --> 00:35:17,198
who had very piercing eyes.
1353
00:35:17,198 --> 00:35:19,743
He told me that he
1354
00:35:17,198 --> 00:35:19,743
was a furniture maker.
1355
00:35:19,743 --> 00:35:21,327
[Paul] What sort of things
1356
00:35:19,743 --> 00:35:21,327
do you make?
1357
00:35:21,327 --> 00:35:22,871
Anything.
1358
00:35:22,871 --> 00:35:25,123
Anything from torture
1359
00:35:22,871 --> 00:35:25,123
furniture for prostitutes
1360
00:35:25,123 --> 00:35:28,167
to really nice beds
1361
00:35:25,123 --> 00:35:28,167
and tables
1362
00:35:28,167 --> 00:35:30,921
for people to eat
1363
00:35:28,167 --> 00:35:30,921
food off of...
1364
00:35:30,921 --> 00:35:34,424
and sleep in and fuck in.
1365
00:35:34,424 --> 00:35:36,175
[Paul] Okay. What, the camera
1366
00:35:34,424 --> 00:35:36,175
is about to run out of film.
1367
00:35:36,175 --> 00:35:38,804
And my beds don't creak
1368
00:35:36,175 --> 00:35:38,804
either while you're fucking.
1369
00:35:38,804 --> 00:35:41,264
[Paul] It's probably, as a piece
1370
00:35:38,804 --> 00:35:41,264
of documentary film making,
1371
00:35:41,264 --> 00:35:42,515
the thing I am most proud of.
1372
00:35:45,852 --> 00:35:47,270
I was really enjoying the work,
1373
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:49,898
and it was also fun
1374
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:49,898
to live with John.
1375
00:35:49,898 --> 00:35:52,442
We went down to New Zealand
1376
00:35:49,898 --> 00:35:52,442
to visit the folks.
1377
00:35:52,442 --> 00:35:55,320
On the way back,
1378
00:35:52,442 --> 00:35:55,320
we stopped at San Francisco.
1379
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,572
It was a revelation.
1380
00:36:08,041 --> 00:36:10,085
[Paul] I remember arriving
1381
00:36:08,041 --> 00:36:10,085
in San Francisco,
1382
00:36:10,085 --> 00:36:11,878
and this was, like,
1383
00:36:10,085 --> 00:36:11,878
the early 80s.
1384
00:36:11,878 --> 00:36:14,047
I went to a place
1385
00:36:11,878 --> 00:36:14,047
called Castro,
1386
00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:17,175
which was a gay ghetto,
1387
00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:17,175
and it, it blew my mind
1388
00:36:17,175 --> 00:36:19,970
in the sense that
1389
00:36:17,175 --> 00:36:19,970
I'd never seen a place where
1390
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:21,262
everything was gay.
1391
00:36:21,262 --> 00:36:23,765
The signs, the bars,
1392
00:36:21,262 --> 00:36:23,765
the coffee houses,
1393
00:36:23,765 --> 00:36:25,224
you know, the bank,
1394
00:36:25,224 --> 00:36:28,020
the people behind
1395
00:36:25,224 --> 00:36:28,020
the counter were gay.
1396
00:36:28,020 --> 00:36:30,229
Would you like the idea
1397
00:36:28,020 --> 00:36:30,229
of a gay ghetto?
1398
00:36:30,229 --> 00:36:31,690
[laughs]
1399
00:36:31,690 --> 00:36:33,525
I don't know,
1400
00:36:31,690 --> 00:36:33,525
if it's a ghetto then it's,
1401
00:36:33,525 --> 00:36:35,234
ah, I don't know,
1402
00:36:35,234 --> 00:36:37,195
I feel like that still would
1403
00:36:35,234 --> 00:36:37,195
have been pretty dangerous.
1404
00:36:37,195 --> 00:36:38,864
It would've been like a...
1405
00:36:38,864 --> 00:36:41,574
It, I mean, it wasn't.
1406
00:36:38,864 --> 00:36:41,574
It was completely, it was...
1407
00:36:41,574 --> 00:36:42,492
that was the beauty of it.
1408
00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:47,080
[Mike] I don't know
1409
00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:47,080
if I'd want to live
1410
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:51,084
in a gay community, like,
1411
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:51,084
that it's just gay people,
1412
00:36:51,084 --> 00:36:52,836
because, ah, I want to,
1413
00:36:52,836 --> 00:36:54,337
I want to make friends
1414
00:36:52,836 --> 00:36:54,337
because they are friends,
1415
00:36:54,337 --> 00:36:55,547
not because they're gay.
1416
00:36:58,257 --> 00:36:59,759
[Paul] During the early 80s,
1417
00:36:59,759 --> 00:37:02,012
London began to develop
1418
00:36:59,759 --> 00:37:02,012
its own gay ghetto
1419
00:37:02,012 --> 00:37:05,390
around Soho
1420
00:37:02,012 --> 00:37:05,390
and Old Compton street.
1421
00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:07,767
Around this time,
1422
00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:07,767
John and I moved into a flat
1423
00:37:07,767 --> 00:37:09,352
in the center of town.
1424
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:13,773
[Paul] One afternoon,
1425
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:13,773
a tourist with blue shorts
1426
00:37:13,773 --> 00:37:16,526
followed me home,
1427
00:37:13,773 --> 00:37:16,526
and we ended up having sex.
1428
00:37:16,526 --> 00:37:18,361
We had a spare bed
1429
00:37:16,526 --> 00:37:18,361
downstairs, and I said,
1430
00:37:18,361 --> 00:37:20,279
"Look, I live with
1431
00:37:18,361 --> 00:37:20,279
a partner upstairs,
1432
00:37:20,279 --> 00:37:22,199
but you are welcome
1433
00:37:20,279 --> 00:37:22,199
to stay here."
1434
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:24,159
So, I went upstairs and John
1435
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:24,159
had heard the doorbell,
1436
00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:25,744
and wanted to know
1437
00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:25,744
who it was.
1438
00:37:25,744 --> 00:37:26,953
To which John said,
1439
00:37:25,744 --> 00:37:26,953
"Well, is he cute?"
1440
00:37:26,953 --> 00:37:28,413
and I said, "Yes.
1441
00:37:28,413 --> 00:37:30,207
Do you want to go down
1442
00:37:28,413 --> 00:37:30,207
to check him out?"
1443
00:37:30,207 --> 00:37:31,208
To which John did.
1444
00:37:33,043 --> 00:37:34,586
And he came back about
1445
00:37:33,043 --> 00:37:34,586
an hour later and said,
1446
00:37:34,586 --> 00:37:36,295
"Yes, he was very cute."
1447
00:37:36,295 --> 00:37:37,923
And I think that was
1448
00:37:36,295 --> 00:37:37,923
the point at which we decided
1449
00:37:37,923 --> 00:37:39,591
that the open relationship
1450
00:37:37,923 --> 00:37:39,591
was no threat
1451
00:37:39,591 --> 00:37:41,300
to our friendship and love.
1452
00:37:56,942 --> 00:37:58,359
[Paul] He said he was
1453
00:37:56,942 --> 00:37:58,359
twenty-four,
1454
00:37:58,359 --> 00:37:59,819
he had a huge cock, and...
1455
00:37:59,819 --> 00:38:01,571
not sure whether
1456
00:37:59,819 --> 00:38:01,571
I really believed this,
1457
00:38:01,571 --> 00:38:03,322
but I said, "Come over."
1458
00:38:04,824 --> 00:38:06,785
Then he said, "Look.
1459
00:38:04,824 --> 00:38:06,785
I've just got one thing
1460
00:38:06,785 --> 00:38:08,995
that I should warn you about."
1461
00:38:08,995 --> 00:38:12,331
He said, "Um,
1462
00:38:08,995 --> 00:38:12,331
I like wearing diapers."
1463
00:38:12,331 --> 00:38:16,128
Sure enough, he had
1464
00:38:12,331 --> 00:38:16,128
an adult pair of diapers.
1465
00:38:16,128 --> 00:38:17,754
Though, when he
1466
00:38:16,128 --> 00:38:17,754
brought out a large dummy,
1467
00:38:17,754 --> 00:38:20,132
I decided perhaps
1468
00:38:17,754 --> 00:38:20,132
this wasn't for me.
1469
00:38:22,425 --> 00:38:23,802
Near where we lived,
1470
00:38:23,802 --> 00:38:25,553
I discovered a little
1471
00:38:23,802 --> 00:38:25,553
afternoon bar,
1472
00:38:25,553 --> 00:38:27,764
called the Market Tavern.
1473
00:38:27,764 --> 00:38:29,849
One of the DJs
1474
00:38:27,764 --> 00:38:29,849
who played there
1475
00:38:29,849 --> 00:38:32,102
was just stunningly
1476
00:38:29,849 --> 00:38:32,102
good looking.
1477
00:38:32,102 --> 00:38:34,980
In reality, I think, the only
1478
00:38:32,102 --> 00:38:34,980
reason he wanted to talk to me
1479
00:38:34,980 --> 00:38:37,732
is because I was
1480
00:38:34,980 --> 00:38:37,732
suddenly in television.
1481
00:38:37,732 --> 00:38:39,985
When he suggested
1482
00:38:37,732 --> 00:38:39,985
going back to his place,
1483
00:38:39,985 --> 00:38:42,028
I leapt at the chance.
1484
00:38:43,571 --> 00:38:46,283
Very sadly,
1485
00:38:43,571 --> 00:38:46,283
about two years later,
1486
00:38:46,283 --> 00:38:48,451
he became ill and died.
1487
00:38:51,621 --> 00:38:53,206
[Tom Brokaw] Scientists
1488
00:38:51,621 --> 00:38:53,206
at the national centers
1489
00:38:53,206 --> 00:38:55,167
for disease control
1490
00:38:53,206 --> 00:38:55,167
released the results
1491
00:38:55,167 --> 00:38:56,918
of a study which shows
1492
00:38:56,918 --> 00:39:00,046
that the lifestyle
1493
00:38:56,918 --> 00:39:00,046
of some male homosexuals
1494
00:39:00,046 --> 00:39:03,008
has triggered an epidemic
1495
00:39:00,046 --> 00:39:03,008
of a rare form of cancer.
1496
00:39:05,718 --> 00:39:07,846
[Douglas] At the time,
1497
00:39:05,718 --> 00:39:07,846
in Manhattan,
1498
00:39:07,846 --> 00:39:09,555
the AIDS virus,
1499
00:39:09,555 --> 00:39:13,434
it was a whisper
1500
00:39:09,555 --> 00:39:13,434
rather than a resounding,
1501
00:39:13,434 --> 00:39:16,562
kind of, tidal wave
1502
00:39:13,434 --> 00:39:16,562
that it became.
1503
00:39:16,562 --> 00:39:20,525
And I ignored
1504
00:39:16,562 --> 00:39:20,525
that whisper and,
1505
00:39:20,525 --> 00:39:24,403
yeah, went wild really.
1506
00:39:30,285 --> 00:39:31,494
[David] I was celibate
1507
00:39:30,285 --> 00:39:31,494
at that point
1508
00:39:31,494 --> 00:39:33,079
because nobody knew,
1509
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:36,374
nobody knew whether even kissing
1510
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:36,374
was a problem, you know.
1511
00:39:36,374 --> 00:39:39,336
So, because of that,
1512
00:39:36,374 --> 00:39:39,336
you know, just, I just...
1513
00:39:39,336 --> 00:39:41,420
kept it in my pants,
1514
00:39:39,336 --> 00:39:41,420
basically.
1515
00:39:46,843 --> 00:39:51,597
[Paul] By the mid 80s,
1516
00:39:46,843 --> 00:39:51,597
the idea of safe sex,
1517
00:39:51,597 --> 00:39:52,974
the use of condoms,
1518
00:39:52,974 --> 00:39:55,101
was absolutely
1519
00:39:52,974 --> 00:39:55,101
starting to take off.
1520
00:39:55,101 --> 00:39:56,519
And I got involved,
1521
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:58,230
and had done some
1522
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:58,230
safe sex adverts,
1523
00:39:58,230 --> 00:40:02,400
and certainly started
1524
00:39:58,230 --> 00:40:02,400
to practice safe sex.
1525
00:40:03,943 --> 00:40:07,822
I came out into a world
1526
00:40:03,943 --> 00:40:07,822
of condoms and fear, you know.
1527
00:40:07,822 --> 00:40:09,574
That was my reality.
1528
00:40:09,574 --> 00:40:12,994
I was terrified
1529
00:40:09,574 --> 00:40:12,994
of being fucked for years.
1530
00:40:17,165 --> 00:40:18,875
But I think a lot of us were.
1531
00:40:18,875 --> 00:40:22,379
We came out utterly terrified
1532
00:40:18,875 --> 00:40:22,379
that we were gonna get ill,
1533
00:40:22,379 --> 00:40:24,047
that we were gonna
1534
00:40:22,379 --> 00:40:24,047
be infected,
1535
00:40:24,047 --> 00:40:26,007
that we were
1536
00:40:24,047 --> 00:40:26,007
gonna infect others.
1537
00:40:28,676 --> 00:40:30,970
[Paul] There was a little
1538
00:40:28,676 --> 00:40:30,970
bar that I went into
1539
00:40:30,970 --> 00:40:34,099
in Charing Cross.
1540
00:40:34,099 --> 00:40:37,394
I'd been there for an hour
1541
00:40:34,099 --> 00:40:37,394
and saw a guy looking at me,
1542
00:40:37,394 --> 00:40:39,645
and he was very cute-looking.
1543
00:40:39,645 --> 00:40:42,523
I asked him, did he
1544
00:40:39,645 --> 00:40:42,523
want to come back with me?
1545
00:40:42,523 --> 00:40:44,109
He said, "I'd love to,
1546
00:40:44,109 --> 00:40:47,195
but just been told
1547
00:40:44,109 --> 00:40:47,195
I'm HIV positive."
1548
00:40:47,195 --> 00:40:49,697
He expected me
1549
00:40:47,195 --> 00:40:49,697
just to walk away,
1550
00:40:51,157 --> 00:40:52,825
and I didn't.
1551
00:40:52,825 --> 00:40:54,702
I said, "Look, it's
1552
00:40:52,825 --> 00:40:54,702
obviously got to be safe
1553
00:40:54,702 --> 00:40:57,122
but I'd love you
1554
00:40:54,702 --> 00:40:57,122
to come back."
1555
00:41:00,750 --> 00:41:02,127
I don't really
1556
00:41:00,750 --> 00:41:02,127
remember the sex.
1557
00:41:02,127 --> 00:41:04,337
I remember him crying,
1558
00:41:04,337 --> 00:41:05,630
that's it.
1559
00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:07,673
He just wanted to be hugged.
1560
00:41:09,550 --> 00:41:11,136
His parents didn't
1561
00:41:09,550 --> 00:41:11,136
know he was gay,
1562
00:41:11,136 --> 00:41:13,012
none of his friends
1563
00:41:11,136 --> 00:41:13,012
knew he was gay.
1564
00:41:13,012 --> 00:41:17,142
He had just been told he had,
1565
00:41:13,012 --> 00:41:17,142
at most, a year to live,
1566
00:41:17,142 --> 00:41:18,810
and at twenty-two,
1567
00:41:18,810 --> 00:41:21,520
that's not an easy thing
1568
00:41:18,810 --> 00:41:21,520
to come to terms with.
1569
00:41:24,607 --> 00:41:28,611
[Paul] You said you were
1570
00:41:24,607 --> 00:41:28,611
diagnosed as HIV positive
1571
00:41:24,607 --> 00:41:28,611
in 19...?
1572
00:41:28,611 --> 00:41:31,864
1990, February 1990.
1573
00:41:31,864 --> 00:41:33,116
What did Malcom say?
1574
00:41:33,116 --> 00:41:36,744
His main thing was that,
1575
00:41:36,744 --> 00:41:38,788
he wanted to die
1576
00:41:36,744 --> 00:41:38,788
before I died.
1577
00:41:38,788 --> 00:41:42,250
He didn't want to live
1578
00:41:38,788 --> 00:41:42,250
when I, while I was,
1579
00:41:42,250 --> 00:41:43,793
if I wasn't alive.
1580
00:41:43,793 --> 00:41:47,130
And they gave me
1581
00:41:43,793 --> 00:41:47,130
eighteen months to live
1582
00:41:47,130 --> 00:41:48,131
at that time.
1583
00:41:51,176 --> 00:41:52,760
[David] I had to wear
1584
00:41:51,176 --> 00:41:52,760
black quite a lot.
1585
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,430
There were a lot of funerals,
1586
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,430
a lot of funerals.
1587
00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:01,686
[Chris] And it was all down
1588
00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:01,686
to us naughty gay people.
1589
00:42:01,686 --> 00:42:03,562
[Paul] Yeah.
1590
00:42:01,686 --> 00:42:03,562
And that fed into prejudice,
1591
00:42:03,562 --> 00:42:05,648
I mean, I remember
1592
00:42:03,562 --> 00:42:05,648
some of the Daily Mail
1593
00:42:05,648 --> 00:42:07,359
and the Sun headlines.
1594
00:42:07,359 --> 00:42:09,110
Yes. Oh, yeah.
1595
00:42:09,110 --> 00:42:11,904
Which actually suggested
1596
00:42:09,110 --> 00:42:11,904
that perhaps an island
1597
00:42:11,904 --> 00:42:13,781
off the coast of England
1598
00:42:11,904 --> 00:42:13,781
should be set up
1599
00:42:13,781 --> 00:42:15,408
for gay people to be put on.
1600
00:42:15,408 --> 00:42:17,076
[Chris] Certainly there
1601
00:42:15,408 --> 00:42:17,076
was a lot of comment
1602
00:42:17,076 --> 00:42:20,330
in so much as we should all
1603
00:42:17,076 --> 00:42:20,330
be in prison or sent away
1604
00:42:20,330 --> 00:42:23,916
and packed off onto a ship
1605
00:42:20,330 --> 00:42:23,916
in the middle of the Atlantic.
1606
00:42:26,211 --> 00:42:27,879
[Margaret Thatcher]
1607
00:42:26,211 --> 00:42:27,879
Children who need to be taught
1608
00:42:27,879 --> 00:42:31,007
to respect traditional
1609
00:42:27,879 --> 00:42:31,007
moral values
1610
00:42:31,007 --> 00:42:35,678
are being taught that they have
1611
00:42:31,007 --> 00:42:35,678
an inalienable right to be gay.
1612
00:42:35,678 --> 00:42:38,764
All of those children
1613
00:42:35,678 --> 00:42:38,764
are being cheated
1614
00:42:38,764 --> 00:42:42,352
of a sound start in life,
1615
00:42:38,764 --> 00:42:42,352
yes, cheated.
1616
00:42:42,352 --> 00:42:44,062
[audience applause]
1617
00:42:44,062 --> 00:42:46,981
[Paul] Margaret Thatcher
1618
00:42:44,062 --> 00:42:46,981
had introduced Clause 28
1619
00:42:46,981 --> 00:42:49,817
in 1987.
1620
00:42:49,817 --> 00:42:54,655
Clause 28 banned any
1621
00:42:49,817 --> 00:42:54,655
talk of homosexuality
1622
00:42:54,655 --> 00:42:56,991
in any educational environment.
1623
00:42:56,991 --> 00:43:00,745
It was a very negative
1624
00:42:56,991 --> 00:43:00,745
piece of legislation.
1625
00:43:01,954 --> 00:43:04,623
[Chris] The outrage
1626
00:43:01,954 --> 00:43:04,623
that people felt,
1627
00:43:04,623 --> 00:43:08,627
that here we were in the middle
1628
00:43:04,623 --> 00:43:08,627
of this atrocious epidemic,
1629
00:43:08,627 --> 00:43:12,340
and instead of our government
1630
00:43:08,627 --> 00:43:12,340
treating us with compassion,
1631
00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:15,301
it chose that
1632
00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:15,301
moment to attack.
1633
00:43:15,301 --> 00:43:20,223
And I think that pushed people
1634
00:43:15,301 --> 00:43:20,223
out of their comfort zones
1635
00:43:20,223 --> 00:43:22,850
and onto the streets.
1636
00:43:22,850 --> 00:43:25,770
♪ [soft violin music] ♪
1637
00:43:27,188 --> 00:43:28,898
[Paul] Clause 28 was
1638
00:43:27,188 --> 00:43:28,898
one of the many issues
1639
00:43:28,898 --> 00:43:31,109
that caused huge
1640
00:43:28,898 --> 00:43:31,109
upheavals in Britain
1641
00:43:31,109 --> 00:43:33,027
during Thatcher's time.
1642
00:43:34,571 --> 00:43:37,698
[Chris] The public hatred
1643
00:43:34,571 --> 00:43:37,698
towards gays and lesbians
1644
00:43:37,698 --> 00:43:39,825
was really at its zenith.
1645
00:43:39,825 --> 00:43:42,661
[Paul] What were you doing
1646
00:43:39,825 --> 00:43:42,661
personally at this point?
1647
00:43:42,661 --> 00:43:44,705
[Chris] I left uni in '88.
1648
00:43:44,705 --> 00:43:47,792
Most of my friends went
1649
00:43:44,705 --> 00:43:47,792
into the city or into law
1650
00:43:47,792 --> 00:43:50,669
or into very, very,
1651
00:43:47,792 --> 00:43:50,669
very well paid jobs.
1652
00:43:50,669 --> 00:43:53,506
And I went and worked
1653
00:43:50,669 --> 00:43:53,506
in a brewery. [laughs]
1654
00:43:55,467 --> 00:43:57,260
I kicked around
1655
00:43:55,467 --> 00:43:57,260
for about a year,
1656
00:43:57,260 --> 00:43:59,095
and then, ah, actually got
1657
00:43:57,260 --> 00:43:59,095
a job on a gay paper in London,
1658
00:43:59,095 --> 00:44:01,347
Capital Gay.
1659
00:44:01,347 --> 00:44:04,559
-[Paul] I think this is when
1660
00:44:01,347 --> 00:44:04,559
I met you through the paper.
1661
00:44:01,347 --> 00:44:04,559
-It was through, yeah.
1662
00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:05,518
-Yeah, yeah.
1663
00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:05,518
-I think I was still.
1664
00:44:05,518 --> 00:44:06,727
Capital Gay.
1665
00:44:06,727 --> 00:44:08,062
And it was brilliant,
1666
00:44:06,727 --> 00:44:08,062
you know.
1667
00:44:08,062 --> 00:44:09,564
I wanted to be a journalist.
1668
00:44:09,564 --> 00:44:11,065
I'd wanted to be a journalist
1669
00:44:09,564 --> 00:44:11,065
since I was a kid.
1670
00:44:11,065 --> 00:44:14,068
And I was very out
1671
00:44:11,065 --> 00:44:14,068
and very politicized,
1672
00:44:14,068 --> 00:44:16,695
and it just allowed me
1673
00:44:14,068 --> 00:44:16,695
to put the two things together.
1674
00:44:19,740 --> 00:44:22,076
I think in the past,
1675
00:44:22,076 --> 00:44:25,371
there was more ability
1676
00:44:22,076 --> 00:44:25,371
that if we felt something
1677
00:44:25,371 --> 00:44:28,124
very strongly, we could
1678
00:44:25,371 --> 00:44:28,124
have more influence.
1679
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:31,877
[Paul] I met Gary
1680
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:31,877
around the late '80s,
1681
00:44:31,877 --> 00:44:33,963
before he was with
1682
00:44:31,877 --> 00:44:33,963
his partner Norman.
1683
00:44:33,963 --> 00:44:36,424
[Norman] When I came out in,
1684
00:44:33,963 --> 00:44:36,424
you know, the '70s,
1685
00:44:36,424 --> 00:44:39,344
it felt like there
1686
00:44:36,424 --> 00:44:39,344
was a possibility,
1687
00:44:39,344 --> 00:44:41,429
you know, through
1688
00:44:39,344 --> 00:44:41,429
gay liberation,
1689
00:44:41,429 --> 00:44:44,474
of having an alternative
1690
00:44:41,429 --> 00:44:44,474
lifestyle and culture.
1691
00:44:44,474 --> 00:44:47,685
[Crowd] If you're gay and
1692
00:44:44,474 --> 00:44:47,685
you know it, clap your hands.
1693
00:44:47,685 --> 00:44:49,687
[Norman] I remember taking
1694
00:44:47,685 --> 00:44:49,687
part in a program
1695
00:44:49,687 --> 00:44:51,314
about gay men in Newcastle,
1696
00:44:51,314 --> 00:44:53,774
and it was like we were
1697
00:44:51,314 --> 00:44:53,774
a separate species.
1698
00:44:53,774 --> 00:44:55,652
You really did
1699
00:44:53,774 --> 00:44:55,652
expect Attenborough to come out
1700
00:44:55,652 --> 00:44:57,278
and, sort of, say...
1701
00:44:57,278 --> 00:44:59,696
[Voiceover] The city at night,
1702
00:44:59,696 --> 00:45:02,158
a time when some people
1703
00:44:59,696 --> 00:45:02,158
feel free at last
1704
00:45:02,158 --> 00:45:05,953
from the harsh daylight
1705
00:45:02,158 --> 00:45:05,953
realities of their lives.
1706
00:45:05,953 --> 00:45:09,874
The only time when they
1707
00:45:05,953 --> 00:45:09,874
can reveal their true selves.
1708
00:45:09,874 --> 00:45:12,669
They are homosexual.
1709
00:45:12,669 --> 00:45:14,337
He asked me whether
1710
00:45:12,669 --> 00:45:14,337
I was gay, and I said, "Yes."
1711
00:45:14,337 --> 00:45:15,963
I didn't see any point
1712
00:45:14,337 --> 00:45:15,963
in hiding it.
1713
00:45:17,423 --> 00:45:18,841
[Paul] Norman and Gary
1714
00:45:17,423 --> 00:45:18,841
have quietened down
1715
00:45:18,841 --> 00:45:20,134
a little bit nowadays.
1716
00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:21,678
They still love
1717
00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:21,678
a good night out,
1718
00:45:21,678 --> 00:45:23,346
though perhaps not for
1719
00:45:21,678 --> 00:45:23,346
three days in a row.
1720
00:45:26,807 --> 00:45:29,686
[Gary] Now, I think,
1721
00:45:26,807 --> 00:45:29,686
how on earth did I fit
1722
00:45:29,686 --> 00:45:31,354
the time in to do that.
1723
00:45:31,354 --> 00:45:33,064
Go out on a Thursday night,
1724
00:45:33,064 --> 00:45:35,608
and then I used to work on
1725
00:45:33,064 --> 00:45:35,608
a Friday and a Saturday.
1726
00:45:35,608 --> 00:45:38,194
And I think, well,
1727
00:45:35,608 --> 00:45:38,194
how the hell did I do that
1728
00:45:38,194 --> 00:45:40,905
and still have a life?
1729
00:45:38,194 --> 00:45:40,905
[laughs]
1730
00:45:40,905 --> 00:45:43,241
[Paul] You tell me, Gary.
1731
00:45:40,905 --> 00:45:43,241
That is something I just need...
1732
00:45:43,241 --> 00:45:44,783
[Gary] I've had,
1733
00:45:43,241 --> 00:45:44,783
I've had a ball.
1734
00:45:44,783 --> 00:45:46,952
I've had a ball.
1735
00:45:46,952 --> 00:45:49,788
♪ [upbeat club music] ♪
1736
00:45:51,832 --> 00:45:55,545
When we had the old bar
1737
00:45:51,832 --> 00:45:55,545
systems and all those,
1738
00:45:55,545 --> 00:45:57,422
it was much more underground,
1739
00:45:55,545 --> 00:45:57,422
and so on,
1740
00:45:57,422 --> 00:46:01,008
-there was much more
1741
00:45:57,422 --> 00:46:01,008
a mixture of society.
1742
00:45:57,422 --> 00:46:01,008
-Yeah.
1743
00:46:01,008 --> 00:46:03,469
[Gary] So, it'd be more
1744
00:46:01,008 --> 00:46:03,469
likely that a guy who
1745
00:46:03,469 --> 00:46:06,138
was just an ordinary
1746
00:46:03,469 --> 00:46:06,138
council job
1747
00:46:06,138 --> 00:46:08,849
would meet somebody
1748
00:46:06,138 --> 00:46:08,849
who was into opera.
1749
00:46:11,977 --> 00:46:14,105
[Paul] I met all sorts.
1750
00:46:11,977 --> 00:46:14,105
French Steve,
1751
00:46:14,105 --> 00:46:16,941
a Hungarian guy
1752
00:46:14,105 --> 00:46:16,941
who was a Philosophy Student,
1753
00:46:16,941 --> 00:46:18,443
Vinnie who was a singer.
1754
00:46:18,443 --> 00:46:20,111
And Graham
1755
00:46:18,443 --> 00:46:20,111
who was an actor
1756
00:46:20,111 --> 00:46:22,614
and became a successful
1757
00:46:20,111 --> 00:46:22,614
theater director.
1758
00:46:22,614 --> 00:46:23,906
[Graham] From the age of eight,
1759
00:46:23,906 --> 00:46:25,157
I knew I wanted to go
1760
00:46:23,906 --> 00:46:25,157
into the theater.
1761
00:46:25,157 --> 00:46:26,909
I was the Artful Dodger
1762
00:46:25,157 --> 00:46:26,909
in Oliver
1763
00:46:26,909 --> 00:46:28,620
for the local amateur
1764
00:46:26,909 --> 00:46:28,620
theater company.
1765
00:46:28,620 --> 00:46:31,205
There weren't many role
1766
00:46:28,620 --> 00:46:31,205
models for gay people around.
1767
00:46:31,205 --> 00:46:34,875
We had Larry Grayson
1768
00:46:31,205 --> 00:46:34,875
and we had John Inman.
1769
00:46:34,875 --> 00:46:37,420
We had very camp
1770
00:46:34,875 --> 00:46:37,420
and affected gay men.
1771
00:46:37,420 --> 00:46:39,631
I woke up this morning
1772
00:46:39,631 --> 00:46:42,174
and I felt as limp
1773
00:46:39,631 --> 00:46:42,174
as a Vicar's handshake.
1774
00:46:42,174 --> 00:46:43,676
[audience laughs]
1775
00:46:43,676 --> 00:46:45,219
[Graham] I remember
1776
00:46:43,676 --> 00:46:45,219
my stepfather and my,
1777
00:46:45,219 --> 00:46:48,013
and my mother sitting
1778
00:46:45,219 --> 00:46:48,013
watching the television
1779
00:46:48,013 --> 00:46:50,642
and then saying
1780
00:46:48,013 --> 00:46:50,642
how disgusting gay men were
1781
00:46:50,642 --> 00:46:51,850
when it came on
1782
00:46:50,642 --> 00:46:51,850
to the television.
1783
00:46:53,311 --> 00:46:56,147
My gay self has
1784
00:46:53,311 --> 00:46:56,147
been very tricky
1785
00:46:56,147 --> 00:46:59,400
because I was sexually
1786
00:46:56,147 --> 00:46:59,400
abused for many years,
1787
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:00,652
since age from fourteen.
1788
00:47:00,652 --> 00:47:02,153
Stepfather was abusive,
1789
00:47:02,153 --> 00:47:04,530
and was never able
1790
00:47:02,153 --> 00:47:04,530
to tell my mother about it.
1791
00:47:04,530 --> 00:47:06,823
So, I came into
1792
00:47:04,530 --> 00:47:06,823
a world of feeling
1793
00:47:06,823 --> 00:47:08,493
very ashamed of who I was.
1794
00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:11,036
The man who was abusing me
1795
00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:11,036
telling me it was disgusting;
1796
00:47:11,036 --> 00:47:12,413
really mixed messages.
1797
00:47:12,413 --> 00:47:14,873
So, by the time
1798
00:47:12,413 --> 00:47:14,873
I'd gone to drama school,
1799
00:47:14,873 --> 00:47:16,833
I was a real bag of confusion.
1800
00:47:16,833 --> 00:47:20,004
But, a year into that,
1801
00:47:16,833 --> 00:47:20,004
I met a very lovely man
1802
00:47:20,004 --> 00:47:22,548
who has become a very
1803
00:47:20,004 --> 00:47:22,548
successful actor now,
1804
00:47:22,548 --> 00:47:25,009
um, had my first
1805
00:47:22,548 --> 00:47:25,009
proper gay relationship.
1806
00:47:25,009 --> 00:47:28,554
So it was
1807
00:47:25,009 --> 00:47:28,554
liberating in many ways.
1808
00:47:28,554 --> 00:47:30,682
But I still carry
1809
00:47:28,554 --> 00:47:30,682
a sense of shame.
1810
00:47:34,893 --> 00:47:36,688
[Gary] For most of my work,
1811
00:47:36,688 --> 00:47:39,732
I had to really
1812
00:47:36,688 --> 00:47:39,732
seem to be not to be gay.
1813
00:47:39,732 --> 00:47:42,568
The reason I started
1814
00:47:39,732 --> 00:47:42,568
my own shop is because
1815
00:47:42,568 --> 00:47:44,987
it was made very clear
1816
00:47:42,568 --> 00:47:44,987
to me very early on
1817
00:47:44,987 --> 00:47:48,366
in my career that not
1818
00:47:44,987 --> 00:47:48,366
being a straight man
1819
00:47:48,366 --> 00:47:50,242
would have not been
1820
00:47:48,366 --> 00:47:50,242
acceptable within my career.
1821
00:47:50,242 --> 00:47:52,869
It would have reached a ceiling
1822
00:47:50,242 --> 00:47:52,869
and that would have been it.
1823
00:47:52,869 --> 00:47:55,080
Now there would be a lot
1824
00:47:52,869 --> 00:47:55,080
of people in what I do
1825
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,749
that would argue with that.
1826
00:47:56,749 --> 00:48:00,085
But I'm absolutely sure even
1827
00:47:56,749 --> 00:48:00,085
now that still is the case
1828
00:48:00,085 --> 00:48:04,256
because I think that despite all
1829
00:48:00,085 --> 00:48:04,256
of the legal equality we've got,
1830
00:48:04,256 --> 00:48:08,177
there's still a psychological
1831
00:48:04,256 --> 00:48:08,177
inequality which still exists.
1832
00:48:14,726 --> 00:48:17,228
[Paul] In 1996,
1833
00:48:14,726 --> 00:48:17,228
combination therapy
1834
00:48:17,228 --> 00:48:18,771
provided the first real hope
1835
00:48:18,771 --> 00:48:21,607
for thousands of people
1836
00:48:18,771 --> 00:48:21,607
living with HIV.
1837
00:48:22,859 --> 00:48:24,901
Sadly, for many
1838
00:48:22,859 --> 00:48:24,901
it was too late,
1839
00:48:24,901 --> 00:48:27,822
work colleagues, people
1840
00:48:24,901 --> 00:48:27,822
who'd been in my documentaries,
1841
00:48:27,822 --> 00:48:29,906
the Market DJ,
1842
00:48:27,822 --> 00:48:29,906
Little John;
1843
00:48:29,906 --> 00:48:33,160
the list goes on and on.
1844
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,080
[Gary] Part of history
1845
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,080
of the '80s and '90s
1846
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,251
was very much dealing with
1847
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,251
people being sick and dying.
1848
00:48:40,251 --> 00:48:42,211
And...
1849
00:48:42,211 --> 00:48:44,797
it affected me very deeply.
1850
00:48:44,797 --> 00:48:47,924
I lost, I lost some
1851
00:48:44,797 --> 00:48:47,924
very very close friends.
1852
00:48:50,219 --> 00:48:53,806
Dealing with so much
1853
00:48:50,219 --> 00:48:53,806
death so quickly was,
1854
00:48:53,806 --> 00:48:56,100
was very, very difficult.
1855
00:49:04,191 --> 00:49:06,277
[Chris] At that point London
1856
00:49:04,191 --> 00:49:06,277
was on the gay side,
1857
00:49:06,277 --> 00:49:09,614
was very stiff and uptight,
1858
00:49:06,277 --> 00:49:09,614
and lots of leather clones
1859
00:49:09,614 --> 00:49:13,117
and techno music,
1860
00:49:09,614 --> 00:49:13,117
and back end of disco.
1861
00:49:13,117 --> 00:49:14,660
And I remember Heaven,
1862
00:49:14,660 --> 00:49:17,246
one night a week it was
1863
00:49:14,660 --> 00:49:17,246
allowed to have house music.
1864
00:49:17,246 --> 00:49:20,999
♪ [house music playing] ♪
1865
00:49:20,999 --> 00:49:23,753
Then about two in the morning
1866
00:49:20,999 --> 00:49:23,753
they would open the door
1867
00:49:23,753 --> 00:49:25,588
between this little
1868
00:49:23,753 --> 00:49:25,588
side club off Heaven
1869
00:49:25,588 --> 00:49:29,341
and we'd all kind of
1870
00:49:25,588 --> 00:49:29,341
go out into the main club.
1871
00:49:34,138 --> 00:49:36,724
This horrible clash
1872
00:49:34,138 --> 00:49:36,724
of civilizations,
1873
00:49:36,724 --> 00:49:38,476
like old gay, new gay.
1874
00:49:38,476 --> 00:49:41,896
It was, nobody knew quite
1875
00:49:38,476 --> 00:49:41,896
how to dance with each other.
1876
00:49:47,652 --> 00:49:49,487
[Paul] By the mid '90s
1877
00:49:47,652 --> 00:49:49,487
there were new gay clubs
1878
00:49:49,487 --> 00:49:51,823
that catered
1879
00:49:49,487 --> 00:49:51,823
to the rave culture.
1880
00:49:51,823 --> 00:49:54,951
The scene in London was
1881
00:49:51,823 --> 00:49:54,951
suddenly famous worldwide.
1882
00:49:54,951 --> 00:49:57,662
♪ [house music playing] ♪
1883
00:50:00,915 --> 00:50:03,668
The Canadian used to come
1884
00:50:00,915 --> 00:50:03,668
over for a weekend of clubbing
1885
00:50:03,668 --> 00:50:05,210
and then crash at my place
1886
00:50:05,210 --> 00:50:08,130
before flying back to Canada
1887
00:50:05,210 --> 00:50:08,130
Monday morning.
1888
00:50:10,549 --> 00:50:13,761
Another weekend visitor
1889
00:50:10,549 --> 00:50:13,761
came from Paris, a dancer.
1890
00:50:13,761 --> 00:50:16,889
Of course, like all dancers,
1891
00:50:13,761 --> 00:50:16,889
he had a fantastic body.
1892
00:50:22,186 --> 00:50:25,105
It was a scene that I never
1893
00:50:22,186 --> 00:50:25,105
got heavily involved in,
1894
00:50:25,105 --> 00:50:28,192
but a scene that John
1895
00:50:25,105 --> 00:50:28,192
met a friend,
1896
00:50:28,192 --> 00:50:32,154
and they started
1897
00:50:28,192 --> 00:50:32,154
going out clubbing,
1898
00:50:32,154 --> 00:50:35,616
and it started to put
1899
00:50:32,154 --> 00:50:35,616
pressure on our relationship.
1900
00:50:37,535 --> 00:50:40,579
I started to explore
1901
00:50:37,535 --> 00:50:40,579
other worlds.
1902
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,334
Derek and Rob were in
1903
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,334
an S&M relationship.
1904
00:50:45,334 --> 00:50:46,961
There were lots of games.
1905
00:50:46,961 --> 00:50:48,713
It was good fun
1906
00:50:46,961 --> 00:50:48,713
and it was exploring
1907
00:50:48,713 --> 00:50:51,256
all sorts of interesting
1908
00:50:48,713 --> 00:50:51,256
things sexually.
1909
00:50:51,256 --> 00:50:53,968
It was adventurous and
1910
00:50:51,256 --> 00:50:53,968
certainly different for me.
1911
00:50:53,968 --> 00:50:56,554
♪ [house music playing] ♪
1912
00:51:00,892 --> 00:51:03,728
He liked toys, and it was
1913
00:51:00,892 --> 00:51:03,728
the first person I'd ever met
1914
00:51:03,728 --> 00:51:05,563
who liked toys.
1915
00:51:10,526 --> 00:51:12,068
And then the Dublin Boys.
1916
00:51:12,068 --> 00:51:14,572
They were another threesome,
1917
00:51:12,068 --> 00:51:14,572
great fun.
1918
00:51:14,572 --> 00:51:16,114
[Graham] Until, ah, the age,
1919
00:51:14,572 --> 00:51:16,114
I was twenty-eight,
1920
00:51:16,114 --> 00:51:18,283
I was in monogamous
1921
00:51:16,114 --> 00:51:18,283
relationships that failed,
1922
00:51:18,283 --> 00:51:19,952
failed, failed, failed, failed.
1923
00:51:19,952 --> 00:51:22,914
So, when I got to twenty-eight
1924
00:51:19,952 --> 00:51:22,914
I just, well, fuck this.
1925
00:51:22,914 --> 00:51:24,957
I'm going to just
1926
00:51:22,914 --> 00:51:24,957
be promiscuous
1927
00:51:24,957 --> 00:51:26,584
and enjoy the sex,
1928
00:51:24,957 --> 00:51:26,584
you know.
1929
00:51:26,584 --> 00:51:27,459
Was that fun?
1930
00:51:27,459 --> 00:51:28,753
Oh, my Lord, yes.
1931
00:51:28,753 --> 00:51:30,504
It was, [laughs],
1932
00:51:28,753 --> 00:51:30,504
like another world.
1933
00:51:30,504 --> 00:51:33,591
I think I'd repressed
1934
00:51:30,504 --> 00:51:33,591
my sexual feelings
1935
00:51:33,591 --> 00:51:36,802
because, um, dirty gay
1936
00:51:33,591 --> 00:51:36,802
promiscuous men,
1937
00:51:36,802 --> 00:51:39,137
I didn't want to be one
1938
00:51:36,802 --> 00:51:39,137
of those, you know, oh, no.
1939
00:51:39,137 --> 00:51:42,683
When I was able to just
1940
00:51:39,137 --> 00:51:42,683
have sex for the sake of sex,
1941
00:51:42,683 --> 00:51:45,185
it was liberating.
1942
00:51:42,683 --> 00:51:45,185
Of course it was liberating.
1943
00:51:45,185 --> 00:51:48,397
But ideally I would
1944
00:51:45,185 --> 00:51:48,397
like to be monogamous,
1945
00:51:48,397 --> 00:51:50,733
but I don't know
1946
00:51:48,397 --> 00:51:50,733
if that's realistic.
1947
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,366
[Paul] At this point,
1948
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,366
John and I really had started
1949
00:51:59,366 --> 00:52:02,620
to talk about breaking up.
1950
00:52:02,620 --> 00:52:05,456
Underneath it all, I think we
1951
00:52:02,620 --> 00:52:05,456
both still loved each other,
1952
00:52:05,456 --> 00:52:07,291
but it was clear
1953
00:52:05,456 --> 00:52:07,291
that we were arguing,
1954
00:52:07,291 --> 00:52:09,919
and there was tension,
1955
00:52:07,291 --> 00:52:09,919
and it just wasn't working.
1956
00:52:09,919 --> 00:52:13,505
So, I shifted out.
1957
00:52:09,919 --> 00:52:13,505
It was a very low point.
1958
00:52:16,717 --> 00:52:18,260
Do you want a boyfriend?
1959
00:52:18,260 --> 00:52:19,595
-Probably.
1960
00:52:18,260 --> 00:52:19,595
-All right.
1961
00:52:19,595 --> 00:52:21,931
-But love,
1962
00:52:19,595 --> 00:52:21,931
Cupid has to,
1963
00:52:21,931 --> 00:52:23,766
shoot his arrow through
1964
00:52:21,931 --> 00:52:23,766
your heart, [laughs],
1965
00:52:23,766 --> 00:52:25,392
and through the other
1966
00:52:23,766 --> 00:52:25,392
person's heart as well
1967
00:52:25,392 --> 00:52:26,477
at the same time.
1968
00:52:26,477 --> 00:52:27,895
If that doesn't happen then...
1969
00:52:27,895 --> 00:52:30,481
[Paul] But you have
1970
00:52:27,895 --> 00:52:30,481
been shot in the heart?
1971
00:52:30,481 --> 00:52:33,985
-Yeah.
1972
00:52:30,481 --> 00:52:33,985
But not in the way that I,
1973
00:52:33,985 --> 00:52:35,653
you know, you,
1974
00:52:33,985 --> 00:52:35,653
you start finding faults
1975
00:52:35,653 --> 00:52:37,237
in past relationships,
1976
00:52:35,653 --> 00:52:37,237
and you think,
1977
00:52:37,237 --> 00:52:38,572
was that really love?
1978
00:52:40,741 --> 00:52:42,451
[James] Let him go, didn't I?
1979
00:52:42,451 --> 00:52:43,828
[Paul] Why did you two
1980
00:52:42,451 --> 00:52:43,828
break up?
1981
00:52:43,828 --> 00:52:45,830
God, [sighs],
1982
00:52:43,828 --> 00:52:45,830
I was too controlling,
1983
00:52:45,830 --> 00:52:48,582
ah, kind of insecure, really.
1984
00:52:48,582 --> 00:52:51,043
We were just too
1985
00:52:48,582 --> 00:52:51,043
good looking together, ah,
1986
00:52:51,043 --> 00:52:52,795
-[laughs]
1987
00:52:51,043 --> 00:52:52,795
-Okay.
1988
00:52:56,132 --> 00:52:58,300
[Paul] I wanted to get
1989
00:52:56,132 --> 00:52:58,300
away from it all
1990
00:52:58,300 --> 00:53:00,511
and decided to go
1991
00:52:58,300 --> 00:53:00,511
and visit Blackpool.
1992
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:06,350
I asked him what
1993
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:06,350
he did for a living
1994
00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:08,644
and he said that he did
1995
00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:08,644
bare-knuckle fighting,
1996
00:53:08,644 --> 00:53:10,521
which, of course, is illegal.
1997
00:53:10,521 --> 00:53:12,773
He suddenly asked,
1998
00:53:10,521 --> 00:53:12,773
did I want to see some videos
1999
00:53:12,773 --> 00:53:14,608
of his fights.
2000
00:53:14,608 --> 00:53:17,862
As the night wore on,
2001
00:53:14,608 --> 00:53:17,862
he kept insisting to me
2002
00:53:17,862 --> 00:53:19,530
that he wasn't gay,
2003
00:53:19,530 --> 00:53:21,824
and then he almost
2004
00:53:19,530 --> 00:53:21,824
looked at me as if,
2005
00:53:21,824 --> 00:53:23,701
waiting for me
2006
00:53:21,824 --> 00:53:23,701
to correct him.
2007
00:53:23,701 --> 00:53:27,163
It was an evening that made
2008
00:53:23,701 --> 00:53:27,163
an enormous impression on me.
2009
00:53:27,163 --> 00:53:30,916
I decided that this could be
2010
00:53:27,163 --> 00:53:30,916
the start of a film,
2011
00:53:30,916 --> 00:53:34,128
and I went on to spend the next
2012
00:53:30,916 --> 00:53:34,128
ten years developing a story
2013
00:53:34,128 --> 00:53:36,588
around the fighter
2014
00:53:34,128 --> 00:53:36,588
that I'd met.
2015
00:53:41,343 --> 00:53:44,638
I missed John terribly,
2016
00:53:41,343 --> 00:53:44,638
and I still loved him hugely.
2017
00:53:48,767 --> 00:53:51,562
I guess I was lonely,
2018
00:53:48,767 --> 00:53:51,562
and I started to experiment
2019
00:53:51,562 --> 00:53:52,938
with all sorts of crazy things.
2020
00:53:54,439 --> 00:53:57,068
♪ [electronic music] ♪
2021
00:54:01,864 --> 00:54:04,240
He messaged me
2022
00:54:01,864 --> 00:54:04,240
that he had a slave,
2023
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:05,868
was I interested?
2024
00:54:05,868 --> 00:54:09,038
And sure enough,
2025
00:54:05,868 --> 00:54:09,038
he had this guy with a mask on.
2026
00:54:12,708 --> 00:54:15,293
He had a thick Russian accent
2027
00:54:12,708 --> 00:54:15,293
and had bottle of vodka,
2028
00:54:15,293 --> 00:54:16,628
which he downed half of it
2029
00:54:16,628 --> 00:54:18,338
through the course
2030
00:54:16,628 --> 00:54:18,338
of the morning.
2031
00:54:24,762 --> 00:54:27,932
Most weekends seemed
2032
00:54:24,762 --> 00:54:27,932
to entail some aspect
2033
00:54:27,932 --> 00:54:30,809
of experimentation,
2034
00:54:27,932 --> 00:54:30,809
clubbing, or drugging.
2035
00:54:33,896 --> 00:54:36,190
I didn't go
2036
00:54:33,896 --> 00:54:36,190
totally off the rails.
2037
00:54:36,190 --> 00:54:38,234
Maybe it was the hope
2038
00:54:36,190 --> 00:54:38,234
of getting back with John
2039
00:54:38,234 --> 00:54:39,735
that stopped me plunging
2040
00:54:39,735 --> 00:54:41,445
into some of the darker
2041
00:54:39,735 --> 00:54:41,445
scenes out there,
2042
00:54:41,445 --> 00:54:42,446
like the Muscle Man.
2043
00:54:44,448 --> 00:54:46,242
I started chatting
2044
00:54:44,448 --> 00:54:46,242
on the phone
2045
00:54:46,242 --> 00:54:49,828
and I realized we'd met
2046
00:54:46,242 --> 00:54:49,828
a couple of years earlier.
2047
00:54:49,828 --> 00:54:51,789
He said, "Oh, I've changed
2048
00:54:49,828 --> 00:54:51,789
a little since we met."
2049
00:54:51,789 --> 00:54:53,249
And he had.
2050
00:54:53,249 --> 00:54:56,334
He'd bulked up,
2051
00:54:53,249 --> 00:54:56,334
become really muscly.
2052
00:54:56,334 --> 00:54:58,503
He also lit up
2053
00:54:56,334 --> 00:54:58,503
a crack cocaine pipe
2054
00:54:58,503 --> 00:55:00,798
and wanted to be
2055
00:54:58,503 --> 00:55:00,798
hurt for real.
2056
00:55:02,340 --> 00:55:04,509
He wanted to be hit,
2057
00:55:02,340 --> 00:55:04,509
he wanted to be tied up,
2058
00:55:04,509 --> 00:55:07,263
he wanted to have
2059
00:55:04,509 --> 00:55:07,263
cigarettes put out on him.
2060
00:55:07,263 --> 00:55:09,265
He wanted unsafe sex.
2061
00:55:09,265 --> 00:55:11,349
It was scary.
2062
00:55:11,349 --> 00:55:12,684
[Graham] I think we were lucky
2063
00:55:12,684 --> 00:55:14,270
because it was
2064
00:55:12,684 --> 00:55:14,270
before the drugs
2065
00:55:14,270 --> 00:55:16,272
became an inherent part
2066
00:55:14,270 --> 00:55:16,272
of what, you know,
2067
00:55:16,272 --> 00:55:17,606
it wasn't chem sex.
2068
00:55:17,606 --> 00:55:19,108
We'd have a joint,
2069
00:55:17,606 --> 00:55:19,108
wouldn't we?
2070
00:55:19,108 --> 00:55:20,859
And that was lovely
2071
00:55:19,108 --> 00:55:20,859
and even relaxed us.
2072
00:55:20,859 --> 00:55:23,862
But I'm really glad
2073
00:55:20,859 --> 00:55:23,862
that I was born when I was,
2074
00:55:23,862 --> 00:55:27,032
because I think, because I have
2075
00:55:23,862 --> 00:55:27,032
so much pain,
2076
00:55:27,032 --> 00:55:28,826
which isn't as bad
2077
00:55:27,032 --> 00:55:28,826
as it used to be,
2078
00:55:28,826 --> 00:55:32,663
but I think I'd have really
2079
00:55:28,826 --> 00:55:32,663
got into terrible drugs
2080
00:55:32,663 --> 00:55:35,457
and sex and, kind of,
2081
00:55:32,663 --> 00:55:35,457
got lost along the way.
2082
00:55:38,252 --> 00:55:39,878
[Paul] You've said at the
2083
00:55:38,252 --> 00:55:39,878
time you had a problem
2084
00:55:39,878 --> 00:55:41,213
with alcohol and drugs.
2085
00:55:41,213 --> 00:55:43,507
Do you think the hassles
2086
00:55:41,213 --> 00:55:43,507
you were having over
2087
00:55:43,507 --> 00:55:45,425
accepting being gay
2088
00:55:43,507 --> 00:55:45,425
fueled that?
2089
00:55:45,425 --> 00:55:46,760
Yeah.
2090
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,637
It wasn't all of it;
2091
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,637
it was part of it.
2092
00:55:50,306 --> 00:55:53,100
I ended up committing a crime,
2093
00:55:50,306 --> 00:55:53,100
and ended up in prison
2094
00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:54,518
during the Christmas period.
2095
00:55:56,103 --> 00:55:58,939
And it was probably at my
2096
00:55:56,103 --> 00:55:58,939
lowest time, you know.
2097
00:55:58,939 --> 00:56:01,066
Um, drugs were
2098
00:55:58,939 --> 00:56:01,066
scarce in there,
2099
00:56:01,066 --> 00:56:04,486
and I was walking around
2100
00:56:01,066 --> 00:56:04,486
and I was thinking, fuck.
2101
00:56:04,486 --> 00:56:06,197
Twenty-six-years-old, Paul,
2102
00:56:06,197 --> 00:56:07,698
big time crook
2103
00:56:07,698 --> 00:56:10,784
with all these other guys
2104
00:56:07,698 --> 00:56:10,784
just like me, you know,
2105
00:56:10,784 --> 00:56:12,828
thinking that this was neat.
2106
00:56:10,784 --> 00:56:12,828
[laughs]
2107
00:56:12,828 --> 00:56:15,789
And I, kind of, knew, just
2108
00:56:12,828 --> 00:56:15,789
knew that if I didn't get out,
2109
00:56:15,789 --> 00:56:19,043
it was gonna be this for
2110
00:56:15,789 --> 00:56:19,043
the rest of my life, really.
2111
00:56:23,255 --> 00:56:25,549
It was one of our
2112
00:56:23,255 --> 00:56:25,549
video afternoons.
2113
00:56:25,549 --> 00:56:27,301
We all got our cushions
2114
00:56:25,549 --> 00:56:27,301
and our bags,
2115
00:56:27,301 --> 00:56:28,927
and started lying down,
2116
00:56:28,927 --> 00:56:32,097
watching these educational
2117
00:56:28,927 --> 00:56:32,097
videos on addiction and um,
2118
00:56:32,097 --> 00:56:33,473
they had these three
2119
00:56:32,097 --> 00:56:33,473
short stories
2120
00:56:33,473 --> 00:56:34,975
that were twenty minutes each,
2121
00:56:34,975 --> 00:56:37,393
and in the middle,
2122
00:56:34,975 --> 00:56:37,393
the middle story was called,
2123
00:56:37,393 --> 00:56:39,521
ah, "Gay, Proud and Sober."
2124
00:56:39,521 --> 00:56:41,190
And we were lying down,
2125
00:56:39,521 --> 00:56:41,190
watching.
2126
00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:44,193
And just before the
2127
00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:44,193
"Gay, Proud and Sober" came on,
2128
00:56:44,193 --> 00:56:46,862
one of the men got up
2129
00:56:44,193 --> 00:56:46,862
and fast-forwarded it.
2130
00:56:46,862 --> 00:56:48,822
"Wait until the next short
2131
00:56:46,862 --> 00:56:48,822
movie. We're not watching
2132
00:56:48,822 --> 00:56:50,615
this 'Gay, Proud
2133
00:56:48,822 --> 00:56:50,615
and Sober' thing."
2134
00:56:50,615 --> 00:56:52,743
And we all knew
2135
00:56:50,615 --> 00:56:52,743
it was the next one.
2136
00:56:52,743 --> 00:56:54,661
And I was fuming.
2137
00:56:54,661 --> 00:56:56,747
And I just got up,
2138
00:56:54,661 --> 00:56:56,747
and I rewound the movie
2139
00:56:56,747 --> 00:57:00,500
and played it, and it just
2140
00:56:56,747 --> 00:57:00,500
went silent. [laughs]
2141
00:57:00,500 --> 00:57:04,838
Went silent and ah, the next
2142
00:57:00,500 --> 00:57:04,838
day in group, I just told them.
2143
00:57:04,838 --> 00:57:06,965
I just told the group, and...
2144
00:57:06,965 --> 00:57:08,800
[coaches whistle blowing]
2145
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,719
[Karl] I think the conversation
2146
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,719
has shifted a little bit.
2147
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:12,512
It's like,
2148
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:12,512
"We know you're gay,
2149
00:57:12,512 --> 00:57:14,806
we don't care that you're gay,
2150
00:57:12,512 --> 00:57:14,806
shut up about it."
2151
00:57:14,806 --> 00:57:16,725
Um, so, it's like, you know,
2152
00:57:16,725 --> 00:57:18,476
like, there's those, there's
2153
00:57:16,725 --> 00:57:18,476
these really weird messages
2154
00:57:18,476 --> 00:57:19,937
that are still
2155
00:57:18,476 --> 00:57:19,937
being sent these days
2156
00:57:19,937 --> 00:57:21,730
that's just still
2157
00:57:19,937 --> 00:57:21,730
perpetuating that idea
2158
00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:24,900
that we can exist,
2159
00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:24,900
but not be seen or heard.
2160
00:57:24,900 --> 00:57:26,693
Being visible
2161
00:57:24,900 --> 00:57:26,693
to people is actually,
2162
00:57:26,693 --> 00:57:29,280
I think, a really, like,
2163
00:57:26,693 --> 00:57:29,280
large part of your identity.
2164
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:30,989
and sharing your
2165
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:30,989
identity with other people.
2166
00:57:30,989 --> 00:57:33,867
[Paul] I am shocked that,
2167
00:57:30,989 --> 00:57:33,867
on the one hand,
2168
00:57:33,867 --> 00:57:36,120
you know, amazing changes,
2169
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:37,788
I'm also shocked
2170
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:37,788
at listening,
2171
00:57:37,788 --> 00:57:40,040
and I've interviewed
2172
00:57:37,788 --> 00:57:40,040
some young people,
2173
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,500
and there are times
2174
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,500
I'm thinking, hang on a sec.
2175
00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:44,836
I could have been saying
2176
00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:44,836
the same thing twenty,
2177
00:57:44,836 --> 00:57:46,755
thirty years,
2178
00:57:44,836 --> 00:57:46,755
forty years ago.
2179
00:57:46,755 --> 00:57:49,174
I'm looked down upon,
2180
00:57:46,755 --> 00:57:49,174
I'm frowned upon,
2181
00:57:49,174 --> 00:57:52,677
because I'm something
2182
00:57:49,174 --> 00:57:52,677
that everyone else
2183
00:57:52,677 --> 00:57:54,930
doesn't want me to be.
2184
00:57:54,930 --> 00:57:57,891
[Paul] I'm still inundated,
2185
00:57:54,930 --> 00:57:57,891
to be honest,
2186
00:57:57,891 --> 00:57:59,935
with people, the lowdown,
2187
00:57:59,935 --> 00:58:02,271
people who seem to be
2188
00:57:59,935 --> 00:58:02,271
leading double lives.
2189
00:58:02,271 --> 00:58:04,022
-People who are married.
2190
00:58:02,271 --> 00:58:04,022
-Yeah.
2191
00:58:04,022 --> 00:58:07,484
People whose profile
2192
00:58:04,022 --> 00:58:07,484
says they're straight,
2193
00:58:07,484 --> 00:58:10,612
and they've only got,
2194
00:58:07,484 --> 00:58:10,612
like, a picture of, that.
2195
00:58:10,612 --> 00:58:12,197
And when I asked him,
2196
00:58:12,197 --> 00:58:13,490
"Why does your profile
2197
00:58:12,197 --> 00:58:13,490
say you're straight?"
2198
00:58:13,490 --> 00:58:14,699
And he's like,
2199
00:58:13,490 --> 00:58:14,699
"I am straight.
2200
00:58:14,699 --> 00:58:16,118
I just like
2201
00:58:14,699 --> 00:58:16,118
having sex with men."
2202
00:58:16,118 --> 00:58:17,453
I'm like, "Yeah right."
2203
00:58:17,453 --> 00:58:20,705
[operatic singing]
2204
00:58:23,292 --> 00:58:25,461
[Paul] When I started
2205
00:58:23,292 --> 00:58:25,461
working on this documentary,
2206
00:58:25,461 --> 00:58:28,255
I thought, well,
2207
00:58:25,461 --> 00:58:28,255
I've got to track down
2208
00:58:25,461 --> 00:58:28,255
some of these people.
2209
00:58:28,255 --> 00:58:30,924
Panos, opera singer.
2210
00:58:28,255 --> 00:58:30,924
There can't be many.
2211
00:58:30,924 --> 00:58:32,176
I knew he was Greek,
2212
00:58:32,176 --> 00:58:34,386
[operatic singing continues]
2213
00:58:38,682 --> 00:58:40,976
You came to London, and it
2214
00:58:38,682 --> 00:58:40,976
was to do ,study at, ah...
2215
00:58:40,976 --> 00:58:42,186
Trinity College of Music,
2216
00:58:40,976 --> 00:58:42,186
yeah.
2217
00:58:42,186 --> 00:58:43,854
Classical singing, opera.
2218
00:58:43,854 --> 00:58:46,982
Now If you were about to ask
2219
00:58:43,854 --> 00:58:46,982
me about what my experience
2220
00:58:46,982 --> 00:58:48,442
was from that time,
2221
00:58:48,442 --> 00:58:51,528
one of my harsh time
2222
00:58:48,442 --> 00:58:51,528
I had in my life was,
2223
00:58:51,528 --> 00:58:52,946
it was there.
2224
00:58:52,946 --> 00:58:55,866
And it was because
2225
00:58:52,946 --> 00:58:55,866
I was stigmatized as gay.
2226
00:58:55,866 --> 00:58:57,826
[singing opera]
2227
00:58:57,826 --> 00:59:00,954
It came from a very close
2228
00:58:57,826 --> 00:59:00,954
person who was putting me up
2229
00:59:00,954 --> 00:59:02,164
the first year of my studies.
2230
00:59:02,164 --> 00:59:03,415
I told her,
2231
00:59:03,415 --> 00:59:05,000
"This is my boyfriend,
2232
00:59:03,415 --> 00:59:05,000
this is my life,
2233
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,584
this is what, who I am."
2234
00:59:06,584 --> 00:59:08,003
And,
2235
00:59:08,003 --> 00:59:10,588
she called the college
2236
00:59:08,003 --> 00:59:10,588
to say that I'm gay.
2237
00:59:10,588 --> 00:59:13,509
And I was kicked out,
2238
00:59:10,588 --> 00:59:13,509
evicted from her house,
2239
00:59:13,509 --> 00:59:15,552
and stayed homeless.
2240
00:59:15,552 --> 00:59:17,429
When the landlady
2241
00:59:15,552 --> 00:59:17,429
found out you were gay,
2242
00:59:17,429 --> 00:59:18,763
she chucked you out?
2243
00:59:18,763 --> 00:59:20,391
You know, you have rage
2244
00:59:18,763 --> 00:59:20,391
when they,
2245
00:59:20,391 --> 00:59:22,351
when they kick you out
2246
00:59:20,391 --> 00:59:22,351
of who you are,
2247
00:59:22,351 --> 00:59:24,936
and especially if you have
2248
00:59:22,351 --> 00:59:24,936
your loved one next to you.
2249
00:59:24,936 --> 00:59:28,357
[singing scales]
2250
00:59:28,357 --> 00:59:30,817
[Paul] Luckily Panos found
2251
00:59:28,357 --> 00:59:30,817
the college were supportive,
2252
00:59:30,817 --> 00:59:33,695
and they found him
2253
00:59:30,817 --> 00:59:33,695
some alternative accommodation.
2254
00:59:33,695 --> 00:59:36,948
[vocalizing]
2255
00:59:36,948 --> 00:59:39,243
[Panos] The most happy
2256
00:59:36,948 --> 00:59:39,243
moment of my life,
2257
00:59:39,243 --> 00:59:41,495
because at that time,
2258
00:59:39,243 --> 00:59:41,495
I could fulfill my dream
2259
00:59:41,495 --> 00:59:43,414
which was to finish
2260
00:59:41,495 --> 00:59:43,414
my studies.
2261
00:59:48,001 --> 00:59:49,794
[Paul] As a new century
2262
00:59:48,001 --> 00:59:49,794
approached,
2263
00:59:49,794 --> 00:59:52,381
there was real progress
2264
00:59:49,794 --> 00:59:52,381
in the struggle for equality.
2265
00:59:52,381 --> 00:59:55,551
But hatred continued
2266
00:59:52,381 --> 00:59:55,551
to fuel atrocities,
2267
00:59:55,551 --> 00:59:59,054
such as the bombing of the
2268
00:59:55,551 --> 00:59:59,054
Admiral Duncan in 1999,
2269
00:59:59,054 --> 01:00:01,098
which killed two people.
2270
01:00:02,849 --> 01:00:06,103
And I continued to meet many
2271
01:00:02,849 --> 01:00:06,103
people leading double lives.
2272
01:00:06,103 --> 01:00:09,064
Around this time, I discovered
2273
01:00:06,103 --> 01:00:09,064
a strange little phenomena,
2274
01:00:09,064 --> 01:00:10,315
telephone chat lines.
2275
01:00:10,315 --> 01:00:11,942
[dial tone humming]
2276
01:00:11,942 --> 01:00:14,528
This anonymous world
2277
01:00:11,942 --> 01:00:14,528
was full of closeted men
2278
01:00:14,528 --> 01:00:16,405
from all over the country.
2279
01:00:16,405 --> 01:00:19,157
A Cornish fisherman,
2280
01:00:16,405 --> 01:00:19,157
an Aberdeen oil rig worker,
2281
01:00:19,157 --> 01:00:22,286
a First Division Footballer
2282
01:00:19,157 --> 01:00:22,286
from up North,
2283
01:00:22,286 --> 01:00:25,122
But there are dangers
2284
01:00:22,286 --> 01:00:25,122
of meeting people
2285
01:00:22,286 --> 01:00:25,122
off the phone line.
2286
01:00:27,999 --> 01:00:29,918
One day, he came out
2287
01:00:27,999 --> 01:00:29,918
of the bathroom
2288
01:00:29,918 --> 01:00:31,044
with a gun in his hand
2289
01:00:31,044 --> 01:00:34,339
and put the gun at my head.
2290
01:00:34,339 --> 01:00:36,216
He was basically robbing me.
2291
01:00:36,216 --> 01:00:38,843
He was very agitated;
2292
01:00:38,843 --> 01:00:40,304
he was a totally
2293
01:00:38,843 --> 01:00:40,304
different person
2294
01:00:40,304 --> 01:00:41,972
to the person
2295
01:00:40,304 --> 01:00:41,972
I'd had sex with.
2296
01:00:44,391 --> 01:00:45,934
He smashed a phone
2297
01:00:45,934 --> 01:00:47,561
and yelled that,
2298
01:00:45,934 --> 01:00:47,561
if I call the police,
2299
01:00:47,561 --> 01:00:49,480
he'd come back
2300
01:00:47,561 --> 01:00:49,480
and kill me,
2301
01:00:51,022 --> 01:00:52,608
and left.
2302
01:00:53,984 --> 01:00:55,986
I did call the police
2303
01:00:53,984 --> 01:00:55,986
straightaway,
2304
01:00:55,986 --> 01:01:00,198
I remember the police sergeant
2305
01:00:55,986 --> 01:01:00,198
asked how I'd met this guy,
2306
01:01:00,198 --> 01:01:02,451
and I was
2307
01:01:00,198 --> 01:01:02,451
a little bit hesitant.
2308
01:01:02,451 --> 01:01:04,828
He just was very clear
2309
01:01:02,451 --> 01:01:04,828
and said, "Look,
2310
01:01:04,828 --> 01:01:06,871
we think we know
2311
01:01:04,828 --> 01:01:06,871
who this person is.
2312
01:01:06,871 --> 01:01:08,832
We're not making
2313
01:01:06,871 --> 01:01:08,832
a moral judgement.
2314
01:01:08,832 --> 01:01:10,208
We just want
2315
01:01:08,832 --> 01:01:10,208
to catch this guy,
2316
01:01:10,208 --> 01:01:11,502
because he's done it before,
2317
01:01:11,502 --> 01:01:12,919
and we want to stop him."
2318
01:01:12,919 --> 01:01:14,588
[police siren wailing]
2319
01:01:14,588 --> 01:01:17,674
I was surprised that
2320
01:01:14,588 --> 01:01:17,674
the police were so supportive.
2321
01:01:17,674 --> 01:01:18,967
I remember thinking at the time
2322
01:01:18,967 --> 01:01:21,011
that things
2323
01:01:18,967 --> 01:01:21,011
really are changing.
2324
01:01:21,011 --> 01:01:23,721
I was even offered
2325
01:01:21,011 --> 01:01:23,721
victim support counseling.
2326
01:01:25,682 --> 01:01:28,644
[Chris] In so much as ten years
2327
01:01:25,682 --> 01:01:28,644
after we were actually raided,
2328
01:01:28,644 --> 01:01:31,438
I was actually sitting
2329
01:01:28,644 --> 01:01:31,438
on a committee
2330
01:01:31,438 --> 01:01:32,981
of the police force
2331
01:01:32,981 --> 01:01:36,610
actually talking about
2332
01:01:32,981 --> 01:01:36,610
policing the gay community.
2333
01:01:36,610 --> 01:01:39,488
When Admiral Duncan
2334
01:01:36,610 --> 01:01:39,488
was bombed,
2335
01:01:39,488 --> 01:01:41,281
I was actually
2336
01:01:39,488 --> 01:01:41,281
invited to come in
2337
01:01:41,281 --> 01:01:42,991
and talk at Scotland Yard.
2338
01:01:42,991 --> 01:01:46,578
I actually did a number of
2339
01:01:42,991 --> 01:01:46,578
talks in local police stations
2340
01:01:46,578 --> 01:01:48,413
about equality and diversity.
2341
01:01:55,546 --> 01:01:57,339
[Paul] I just recently filmed
2342
01:01:55,546 --> 01:01:57,339
London Pride,
2343
01:01:57,339 --> 01:02:01,510
and all of the Armed Forces
2344
01:01:57,339 --> 01:02:01,510
had representatives there,
2345
01:02:01,510 --> 01:02:02,969
bands marching.
2346
01:02:02,969 --> 01:02:04,762
Did you ever think you'd
2347
01:02:02,969 --> 01:02:04,762
see something like this?
2348
01:02:04,762 --> 01:02:06,139
No.
2349
01:02:06,139 --> 01:02:09,184
I thought that
2350
01:02:06,139 --> 01:02:09,184
would be impossible.
2351
01:02:09,184 --> 01:02:11,645
[crowd cheering]
2352
01:02:17,817 --> 01:02:19,277
The thought of
2353
01:02:17,817 --> 01:02:19,277
military people
2354
01:02:19,277 --> 01:02:21,196
being open about
2355
01:02:19,277 --> 01:02:21,196
their sexuality
2356
01:02:21,196 --> 01:02:23,574
is to me, it's
2357
01:02:21,196 --> 01:02:23,574
actually incredible,
2358
01:02:23,574 --> 01:02:25,742
because now they can
2359
01:02:23,574 --> 01:02:25,742
get on with their jobs
2360
01:02:25,742 --> 01:02:27,285
and do the things
2361
01:02:25,742 --> 01:02:27,285
that they love
2362
01:02:27,285 --> 01:02:29,913
and serve their country
2363
01:02:27,285 --> 01:02:29,913
without the overhead
2364
01:02:29,913 --> 01:02:32,666
of having to worry
2365
01:02:29,913 --> 01:02:32,666
about the SIB
2366
01:02:32,666 --> 01:02:35,460
or, you know, [laughs],
2367
01:02:32,666 --> 01:02:35,460
or the Naval patrol.
2368
01:02:40,924 --> 01:02:43,552
[Norman] Clearly there are
2369
01:02:40,924 --> 01:02:43,552
legal changes that happened,
2370
01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:46,763
but in terms of those
2371
01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:46,763
changes having an impact,
2372
01:02:46,763 --> 01:02:49,807
it was really through
2373
01:02:46,763 --> 01:02:49,807
the examples of individuals
2374
01:02:49,807 --> 01:02:52,352
coming out to families,
2375
01:02:49,807 --> 01:02:52,352
coming out to friends,
2376
01:02:52,352 --> 01:02:54,646
that really did
2377
01:02:52,352 --> 01:02:54,646
make the cultural change.
2378
01:02:59,651 --> 01:03:01,486
[Paul] I got over
2379
01:02:59,651 --> 01:03:01,486
John completely.
2380
01:03:01,486 --> 01:03:03,196
It was very strange.
2381
01:03:03,196 --> 01:03:06,283
For many nights, I found
2382
01:03:03,196 --> 01:03:06,283
myself dreaming about him,
2383
01:03:06,283 --> 01:03:08,868
and then one night those
2384
01:03:06,283 --> 01:03:08,868
dreams suddenly stopped.
2385
01:03:12,372 --> 01:03:14,165
Literally the following week,
2386
01:03:14,165 --> 01:03:16,293
I got a letter
2387
01:03:14,165 --> 01:03:16,293
out of the blue from John
2388
01:03:16,293 --> 01:03:17,711
saying how much
2389
01:03:16,293 --> 01:03:17,711
he missed me.
2390
01:03:17,711 --> 01:03:19,921
And if you know
2391
01:03:17,711 --> 01:03:19,921
anything about John,
2392
01:03:19,921 --> 01:03:22,633
he doesn't even like
2393
01:03:19,921 --> 01:03:22,633
using a telephone,
2394
01:03:22,633 --> 01:03:24,676
let alone writing.
2395
01:03:24,676 --> 01:03:27,220
And he said, "Well, we should
2396
01:03:24,676 --> 01:03:27,220
meet up for something to eat."
2397
01:03:27,220 --> 01:03:29,222
And I said, "Definitely."
2398
01:03:30,807 --> 01:03:33,518
And before too long,
2399
01:03:30,807 --> 01:03:33,518
John and I were back together.
2400
01:03:35,729 --> 01:03:37,397
[Richard] You and John,
2401
01:03:35,729 --> 01:03:37,397
when I met you,
2402
01:03:37,397 --> 01:03:38,607
you helped an awful lot,
2403
01:03:38,607 --> 01:03:40,651
because you were
2404
01:03:38,607 --> 01:03:40,651
completely comfortable
2405
01:03:40,651 --> 01:03:42,277
about who you were
2406
01:03:42,277 --> 01:03:44,321
and about your sexuality
2407
01:03:44,321 --> 01:03:47,658
in a way that would
2408
01:03:44,321 --> 01:03:47,658
have been unthinkable
2409
01:03:47,658 --> 01:03:49,701
for me to be at that time.
2410
01:03:51,035 --> 01:03:52,704
[Paul] You made a decision
2411
01:03:51,035 --> 01:03:52,704
to leave the Navy,
2412
01:03:52,704 --> 01:03:55,582
Yeah, just because I
2413
01:03:52,704 --> 01:03:55,582
couldn't stand the stress
2414
01:03:55,582 --> 01:03:57,041
of it anymore.
2415
01:04:01,379 --> 01:04:03,423
[Paul] Richard ended up
2416
01:04:01,379 --> 01:04:03,423
in Australia
2417
01:04:03,423 --> 01:04:06,593
after going back to University
2418
01:04:03,423 --> 01:04:06,593
and doing a science degree.
2419
01:04:06,593 --> 01:04:08,595
It was a whole new life
2420
01:04:06,593 --> 01:04:08,595
and he flourished.
2421
01:04:08,595 --> 01:04:10,138
Now with a PhD,
2422
01:04:10,138 --> 01:04:13,433
he's a highly-respected
2423
01:04:10,138 --> 01:04:13,433
research scientist.
2424
01:04:13,433 --> 01:04:15,893
He also soon
2425
01:04:13,433 --> 01:04:15,893
met someone special.
2426
01:04:17,354 --> 01:04:19,939
So suddenly now free
2427
01:04:17,354 --> 01:04:19,939
to explore being gay, and you...
2428
01:04:19,939 --> 01:04:21,399
-Yes.
2429
01:04:19,939 --> 01:04:21,399
-Mmm.
2430
01:04:21,399 --> 01:04:23,276
[Paul] How did you find that?
2431
01:04:21,399 --> 01:04:23,276
Was it fun?
2432
01:04:23,276 --> 01:04:24,986
[Richard] It was, it was
2433
01:04:23,276 --> 01:04:24,986
great fun.
2434
01:04:24,986 --> 01:04:27,739
And I think it was only
2435
01:04:24,986 --> 01:04:27,739
six months after I joined
2436
01:04:27,739 --> 01:04:30,367
the university,
2437
01:04:27,739 --> 01:04:30,367
I met Kevin, my partner.
2438
01:04:30,367 --> 01:04:32,160
Things really did
2439
01:04:30,367 --> 01:04:32,160
change then because,
2440
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:33,745
you know,
2441
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:33,745
I was able to be myself
2442
01:04:33,745 --> 01:04:36,080
and form a relationship
2443
01:04:33,745 --> 01:04:36,080
with somebody that I loved.
2444
01:04:38,208 --> 01:04:40,210
[Paul] I knew love
2445
01:04:38,208 --> 01:04:40,210
had to be part of my film
2446
01:04:40,210 --> 01:04:41,837
about the fighter,
2447
01:04:41,837 --> 01:04:44,381
but was struggling
2448
01:04:41,837 --> 01:04:44,381
to find the other character.
2449
01:04:45,841 --> 01:04:47,509
One night, I started
2450
01:04:45,841 --> 01:04:47,509
chatting to this young,
2451
01:04:47,509 --> 01:04:51,012
very sexy-looking guy
2452
01:04:47,509 --> 01:04:51,012
whose name was Lee.
2453
01:04:51,012 --> 01:04:53,598
And he told me that he
2454
01:04:51,012 --> 01:04:53,598
was a singer in a boy band.
2455
01:04:53,598 --> 01:04:57,435
♪ I want it all
2456
01:04:53,598 --> 01:04:57,435
and I want it right now ♪
2457
01:04:57,435 --> 01:05:00,480
♪ [pop music playing] ♪
2458
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:02,190
[Paul] Sure enough,
2459
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:02,190
about a month later
2460
01:05:02,190 --> 01:05:04,192
he was on Top of the Pops.
2461
01:05:04,192 --> 01:05:06,319
♪ I'm not crying,
2462
01:05:04,192 --> 01:05:06,319
now I'm climbing ♪
2463
01:05:06,319 --> 01:05:08,196
[Paul] I remember even,
2464
01:05:06,319 --> 01:05:08,196
he used to ring me up,
2465
01:05:08,196 --> 01:05:11,032
and he was on tour with
2466
01:05:08,196 --> 01:05:11,032
a couple of other boy bands...
2467
01:05:11,032 --> 01:05:12,950
[fans screaming]
2468
01:05:12,950 --> 01:05:14,411
...and he'd ring me up, and
2469
01:05:12,950 --> 01:05:14,411
say, "There's all these girls
2470
01:05:14,411 --> 01:05:16,204
screaming outside my hotel."
2471
01:05:16,204 --> 01:05:17,789
And I would jokingly suggest
2472
01:05:17,789 --> 01:05:19,624
that they were
2473
01:05:17,789 --> 01:05:19,624
wasting their time.
2474
01:05:21,084 --> 01:05:23,044
It was after meeting Lee,
2475
01:05:23,044 --> 01:05:25,463
that I suddenly thought
2476
01:05:23,044 --> 01:05:25,463
the other central character
2477
01:05:25,463 --> 01:05:27,507
for the fighter film
2478
01:05:25,463 --> 01:05:27,507
should be somebody
2479
01:05:27,507 --> 01:05:29,175
who works in the
2480
01:05:27,507 --> 01:05:29,175
music business.
2481
01:05:29,175 --> 01:05:30,761
They were mouthy bastards.
2482
01:05:30,761 --> 01:05:33,137
Well, so they deserved
2483
01:05:30,761 --> 01:05:33,137
a good kicking then, did they?
2484
01:05:33,137 --> 01:05:34,472
They kept calling me queer.
2485
01:05:34,472 --> 01:05:35,932
For fuck's sake, Craig,
2486
01:05:35,932 --> 01:05:37,642
that's what you are,
2487
01:05:35,932 --> 01:05:37,642
a queer.
2488
01:05:37,642 --> 01:05:39,143
Just deal with it.
2489
01:05:39,143 --> 01:05:40,353
That's it, is it?
2490
01:05:40,353 --> 01:05:42,188
Deal with it.
2491
01:05:42,188 --> 01:05:44,065
Got a magic wand,
2492
01:05:42,188 --> 01:05:44,065
have you?
2493
01:05:44,065 --> 01:05:46,109
Look, me coming down here don't
2494
01:05:44,065 --> 01:05:46,109
mean everything is just sorted.
2495
01:05:46,109 --> 01:05:47,151
Yeah well,
2496
01:05:46,109 --> 01:05:47,151
carry on like that,
2497
01:05:47,151 --> 01:05:48,653
and nothing will get sorted.
2498
01:05:48,653 --> 01:05:50,488
Just want the easy life,
2499
01:05:48,653 --> 01:05:50,488
don't you?
2500
01:05:50,488 --> 01:05:52,031
What do you think
2501
01:05:50,488 --> 01:05:52,031
I should do then?
2502
01:05:52,031 --> 01:05:54,451
Start putting the same crap
2503
01:05:52,031 --> 01:05:54,451
up my nose as you.
2504
01:05:54,451 --> 01:05:56,202
[Paul] It was picked up
2505
01:05:54,451 --> 01:05:56,202
by a distributor,
2506
01:05:56,202 --> 01:05:59,414
and the first screening ever
2507
01:05:56,202 --> 01:05:59,414
was at little festival,
2508
01:05:59,414 --> 01:06:01,666
a little gay festival,
2509
01:05:59,414 --> 01:06:01,666
in Turin.
2510
01:06:03,167 --> 01:06:04,961
There was a guy who
2511
01:06:03,167 --> 01:06:04,961
worked in the box office
2512
01:06:04,961 --> 01:06:05,879
of the festival,
2513
01:06:07,505 --> 01:06:09,549
and we went back
2514
01:06:07,505 --> 01:06:09,549
to my little hotel.
2515
01:06:09,549 --> 01:06:11,008
A fantastic experience
2516
01:06:11,008 --> 01:06:13,052
of my first film really
2517
01:06:11,008 --> 01:06:13,052
making the cinema,
2518
01:06:13,052 --> 01:06:14,930
and it was great to share
2519
01:06:13,052 --> 01:06:14,930
it with someone.
2520
01:06:17,307 --> 01:06:18,934
Touring with the film
2521
01:06:18,934 --> 01:06:21,561
was a great to meet people
2522
01:06:18,934 --> 01:06:21,561
all over the world.
2523
01:06:21,561 --> 01:06:23,980
There was the
2524
01:06:21,561 --> 01:06:23,980
Munich sauna boy,
2525
01:06:23,980 --> 01:06:25,064
a black man in Seattle,
2526
01:06:26,775 --> 01:06:28,025
in San Francisco,
2527
01:06:26,775 --> 01:06:28,025
a dancer,
2528
01:06:29,193 --> 01:06:30,612
a New York
2529
01:06:29,193 --> 01:06:30,612
high-flying banker.
2530
01:06:32,781 --> 01:06:34,198
You travelled, didn't you?
2531
01:06:34,198 --> 01:06:36,952
I went to the biggest
2532
01:06:34,198 --> 01:06:36,952
club in Scandinavia,
2533
01:06:36,952 --> 01:06:39,287
the Scandinavians
2534
01:06:36,952 --> 01:06:39,287
Leatherman's Club.
2535
01:06:39,287 --> 01:06:41,581
Great. I thought I was
2536
01:06:39,287 --> 01:06:41,581
going to get abducted.
2537
01:06:43,124 --> 01:06:45,168
[Raglan]
2538
01:06:43,124 --> 01:06:45,168
And it was going away,
2539
01:06:45,168 --> 01:06:47,504
overseas to Brazil.
2540
01:06:50,590 --> 01:06:52,676
Then the real fullness,
2541
01:06:50,590 --> 01:06:52,676
wholeness,
2542
01:06:52,676 --> 01:06:54,218
whole being,
2543
01:06:52,676 --> 01:06:54,218
started coming through,
2544
01:06:54,218 --> 01:06:55,804
and I thought, "Hey.
2545
01:06:54,218 --> 01:06:55,804
This feels really good."
2546
01:06:55,804 --> 01:06:58,849
And so I both went off
2547
01:06:55,804 --> 01:06:58,849
and sought Christian healing
2548
01:06:58,849 --> 01:07:02,143
to deal with the
2549
01:06:58,849 --> 01:07:02,143
"homosexual issue" in my life,
2550
01:07:02,143 --> 01:07:04,270
and then I was also wandering
2551
01:07:02,143 --> 01:07:04,270
the streets of Amsterdam
2552
01:07:04,270 --> 01:07:05,689
trying to connect with that.
2553
01:07:05,689 --> 01:07:07,148
So, both were happening
2554
01:07:05,689 --> 01:07:07,148
at the same time.
2555
01:07:07,148 --> 01:07:08,065
Back and forth, bang bang.
2556
01:07:12,153 --> 01:07:14,030
[Paul] The television company
2557
01:07:12,153 --> 01:07:14,030
I was working for
2558
01:07:14,030 --> 01:07:15,365
opened a Sheffield office
2559
01:07:15,365 --> 01:07:17,492
and offered me
2560
01:07:15,365 --> 01:07:17,492
a chance to run it.
2561
01:07:18,785 --> 01:07:20,662
It was a northern
2562
01:07:18,785 --> 01:07:20,662
industrial city,
2563
01:07:20,662 --> 01:07:23,331
and spending a few years here
2564
01:07:20,662 --> 01:07:23,331
forced me to re-think
2565
01:07:23,331 --> 01:07:25,876
many of my ideas
2566
01:07:23,331 --> 01:07:25,876
around sexuality.
2567
01:07:27,669 --> 01:07:30,129
The fireman, he was
2568
01:07:27,669 --> 01:07:30,129
straight out of a porn film.
2569
01:07:33,090 --> 01:07:35,760
He'd tell me about the fires
2570
01:07:33,090 --> 01:07:35,760
that he put out that day,
2571
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:37,554
and he liked
2572
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:37,554
being screwed,
2573
01:07:37,554 --> 01:07:39,806
and then he had to get
2574
01:07:37,554 --> 01:07:39,806
back to his girlfriend,
2575
01:07:39,806 --> 01:07:40,765
And then after
2576
01:07:39,806 --> 01:07:40,765
about the fourth time
2577
01:07:40,765 --> 01:07:42,392
of him coming round,
2578
01:07:42,392 --> 01:07:44,394
he suddenly said,
2579
01:07:42,392 --> 01:07:44,394
would it be possible for him
2580
01:07:44,394 --> 01:07:47,313
to bring round
2581
01:07:44,394 --> 01:07:47,313
some lesbian porn?
2582
01:07:47,313 --> 01:07:50,400
This sexy, sexy fireman
2583
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:54,487
liked being screwed while
2584
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:54,487
watching lesbian porn.
2585
01:07:54,487 --> 01:07:57,032
I have no idea
2586
01:07:54,487 --> 01:07:57,032
where his head was at.
2587
01:07:57,032 --> 01:07:58,867
I distinctly remember thinking,
2588
01:07:58,867 --> 01:08:00,493
there's no such thing
2589
01:07:58,867 --> 01:08:00,493
as bisexuality.
2590
01:08:00,493 --> 01:08:02,328
I've changed my mind.
2591
01:08:00,493 --> 01:08:02,328
I hasten to add, [laughs],
2592
01:08:02,328 --> 01:08:03,538
and thoroughly enjoyed,
2593
01:08:03,538 --> 01:08:05,040
thoroughly enjoyed
2594
01:08:03,538 --> 01:08:05,040
changing my mind.
2595
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:06,833
But-but, I can remember...
2596
01:08:06,833 --> 01:08:08,167
Was that a confession, Paul?
2597
01:08:08,167 --> 01:08:09,753
[Paul] Ah, absolutely.
2598
01:08:09,753 --> 01:08:13,381
I completely
2599
01:08:09,753 --> 01:08:13,381
and utterly thought, "Right,"
2600
01:08:13,381 --> 01:08:14,966
[clears throat],
2601
01:08:13,381 --> 01:08:14,966
"I'm gay.
2602
01:08:14,966 --> 01:08:16,551
I, you know, I'd never
2603
01:08:14,966 --> 01:08:16,551
had sex with a woman,"
2604
01:08:16,551 --> 01:08:18,053
freaked out
2605
01:08:16,551 --> 01:08:18,053
at the whole idea,
2606
01:08:20,847 --> 01:08:23,349
Met this guy who was married,
2607
01:08:20,847 --> 01:08:23,349
who kept saying,
2608
01:08:23,349 --> 01:08:24,684
"I've told my wife
2609
01:08:23,349 --> 01:08:24,684
all about you
2610
01:08:24,684 --> 01:08:26,061
and she wants a threesome."
2611
01:08:26,061 --> 01:08:28,063
And, finally after
2612
01:08:26,061 --> 01:08:28,063
a long period of time,
2613
01:08:28,063 --> 01:08:29,230
I thought, this is ridiculous.
2614
01:08:29,230 --> 01:08:30,607
What am I
2615
01:08:29,230 --> 01:08:30,607
so scared of, you know?
2616
01:08:32,442 --> 01:08:35,612
I can truthfully say, I think
2617
01:08:32,442 --> 01:08:35,612
I was more nervous at that
2618
01:08:35,612 --> 01:08:38,782
than I have been
2619
01:08:35,612 --> 01:08:38,782
on anything recently.
2620
01:08:40,366 --> 01:08:43,286
[Paul] She knew that I was
2621
01:08:40,366 --> 01:08:43,286
technically a virgin.
2622
01:08:43,286 --> 01:08:46,163
And I think we roared with
2623
01:08:43,286 --> 01:08:46,163
laughter about all of this,
2624
01:08:46,163 --> 01:08:48,959
and, in a way, that was
2625
01:08:46,163 --> 01:08:48,959
what made it exciting for her.
2626
01:08:50,543 --> 01:08:52,045
It was after meeting
2627
01:08:50,543 --> 01:08:52,045
this couple that I realized
2628
01:08:52,045 --> 01:08:54,130
sexuality was a much
2629
01:08:52,045 --> 01:08:54,130
more fluid thing
2630
01:08:54,130 --> 01:08:56,466
than I've ever imagined,
2631
01:08:56,466 --> 01:08:58,885
and it was a wonderful
2632
01:08:56,466 --> 01:08:58,885
bisexual I met in Sheffield
2633
01:08:58,885 --> 01:09:00,470
who really taught me this,
2634
01:09:00,470 --> 01:09:01,763
Brian.
2635
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,141
We'd go clubbing together,
2636
01:09:05,141 --> 01:09:07,560
and he loved Mozart
2637
01:09:05,141 --> 01:09:07,560
of all things.
2638
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:10,480
♪ [Mozart playing] ♪
2639
01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:13,483
We ended up in all sorts
2640
01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:13,483
of crazy situations,
2641
01:09:13,483 --> 01:09:15,819
and I remember one
2642
01:09:13,483 --> 01:09:15,819
weekend Brian came down,
2643
01:09:15,819 --> 01:09:19,072
and we'd actually
2644
01:09:15,819 --> 01:09:19,072
just taken an ecstasy pill,
2645
01:09:19,072 --> 01:09:21,240
and this married couple that
2646
01:09:19,072 --> 01:09:21,240
we'd seen a couple of times
2647
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:22,909
texted us out of the blue
2648
01:09:22,909 --> 01:09:24,160
saying that they
2649
01:09:22,909 --> 01:09:24,160
were in a hotel,
2650
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:25,411
and they had
2651
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:25,411
somebody tied up,
2652
01:09:25,411 --> 01:09:27,914
did we come and join them?
2653
01:09:27,914 --> 01:09:29,248
So we did.
2654
01:09:29,248 --> 01:09:32,002
♪ [Mozart continues] ♪
2655
01:09:35,254 --> 01:09:37,340
He was a lovely guy,
2656
01:09:35,254 --> 01:09:37,340
he was interesting,
2657
01:09:37,340 --> 01:09:40,969
he was vibrant,
2658
01:09:37,340 --> 01:09:40,969
and he had some dark demons.
2659
01:09:40,969 --> 01:09:44,305
He suffered
2660
01:09:40,969 --> 01:09:44,305
from depression, and...
2661
01:09:44,305 --> 01:09:46,724
he had been abused
2662
01:09:44,305 --> 01:09:46,724
as a child,
2663
01:09:46,724 --> 01:09:50,020
and this had left huge scars.
2664
01:09:51,646 --> 01:09:53,690
♪ [Mozart continues] ♪
2665
01:09:53,690 --> 01:09:56,359
Over the years,
2666
01:09:53,690 --> 01:09:56,359
he had his ups and downs.
2667
01:09:56,359 --> 01:09:59,487
He tried to kill himself
2668
01:09:56,359 --> 01:09:59,487
a couple of times.
2669
01:09:59,487 --> 01:10:02,239
He eventually got
2670
01:09:59,487 --> 01:10:02,239
a quite good job,
2671
01:10:02,239 --> 01:10:04,868
and he ended up with a nice
2672
01:10:02,239 --> 01:10:04,868
circle of friends in Sheffield.
2673
01:10:04,868 --> 01:10:07,996
♪ [Mozart continues] ♪
2674
01:10:13,668 --> 01:10:15,503
[breathes heavily]
2675
01:10:13,668 --> 01:10:15,503
Yeah.
2676
01:10:15,503 --> 01:10:18,255
He didn't,
2677
01:10:15,503 --> 01:10:18,255
he killed himself,
2678
01:10:18,255 --> 01:10:21,217
And it was, it was, it was sad.
2679
01:10:25,138 --> 01:10:27,306
It was really sad
2680
01:10:25,138 --> 01:10:27,306
because I'd seen him
2681
01:10:27,306 --> 01:10:29,684
about a week
2682
01:10:27,306 --> 01:10:29,684
and a half earlier,
2683
01:10:29,684 --> 01:10:32,937
and I think the saddest thing
2684
01:10:29,684 --> 01:10:32,937
is he, and there was,
2685
01:10:32,937 --> 01:10:36,440
funnily enough, a performance
2686
01:10:32,937 --> 01:10:36,440
of Mozart's requiem.
2687
01:10:36,440 --> 01:10:40,361
♪ [Mozart continues] ♪
2688
01:10:40,361 --> 01:10:42,530
And I was working really hard,
2689
01:10:40,361 --> 01:10:42,530
and I was exhausted
2690
01:10:42,530 --> 01:10:45,158
and I said, "Look I just
2691
01:10:42,530 --> 01:10:45,158
can't make it but, you know,
2692
01:10:45,158 --> 01:10:47,785
you go and enjoy it,
2693
01:10:45,158 --> 01:10:47,785
and we'll meet up in London
2694
01:10:47,785 --> 01:10:49,829
when you next come down."
2695
01:10:49,829 --> 01:10:53,041
♪ [Mozart continues] ♪
2696
01:10:56,878 --> 01:10:59,130
My memories of Brian are
2697
01:10:56,878 --> 01:10:59,130
somebody who was vital
2698
01:10:59,130 --> 01:11:01,382
and wonderful
2699
01:10:59,130 --> 01:11:01,382
and loving and kind.
2700
01:11:01,382 --> 01:11:04,135
♪ [Mozart continues] ♪
2701
01:11:16,856 --> 01:11:19,734
I tried to track down all sorts
2702
01:11:16,856 --> 01:11:19,734
of people from the past.
2703
01:11:19,734 --> 01:11:21,527
I wish I'd been
2704
01:11:19,734 --> 01:11:21,527
able to find them all.
2705
01:11:21,527 --> 01:11:24,155
I even tried
2706
01:11:21,527 --> 01:11:24,155
to resuscitate old phones.
2707
01:11:24,155 --> 01:11:26,783
Sadly, I've lost touch
2708
01:11:24,155 --> 01:11:26,783
with a lot of them.
2709
01:11:28,284 --> 01:11:30,327
But one person I did
2710
01:11:28,284 --> 01:11:30,327
manage to track down
2711
01:11:30,327 --> 01:11:32,205
was Janusz from Poland.
2712
01:11:36,084 --> 01:11:37,543
So the old town, it's...
2713
01:11:37,543 --> 01:11:39,796
[Janusz] It's, it's
2714
01:11:37,543 --> 01:11:39,796
actually the young town.
2715
01:11:39,796 --> 01:11:41,422
[laughs] Right, okay.
2716
01:11:41,422 --> 01:11:44,175
Of course, it was
2717
01:11:41,422 --> 01:11:44,175
destroyed to the ground
2718
01:11:44,175 --> 01:11:45,384
during the war.
2719
01:11:45,384 --> 01:11:47,595
It was rebuilt,
2720
01:11:45,384 --> 01:11:47,595
but in a different way.
2721
01:11:47,595 --> 01:11:50,056
This old city
2722
01:11:50,056 --> 01:11:53,184
we can see today,
2723
01:11:50,056 --> 01:11:53,184
is a little bit artificial.
2724
01:11:55,311 --> 01:11:57,147
[Paul] I went with Janusz
2725
01:11:55,311 --> 01:11:57,147
and one of his friends
2726
01:11:57,147 --> 01:11:58,815
on a pride march.
2727
01:11:58,815 --> 01:12:01,525
It was much more reserved
2728
01:11:58,815 --> 01:12:01,525
than London's march,
2729
01:12:01,525 --> 01:12:03,653
but still wonderful to see.
2730
01:12:05,113 --> 01:12:07,782
Obviously, things have
2731
01:12:05,113 --> 01:12:07,782
changed a lot for gay people
2732
01:12:07,782 --> 01:12:10,367
in New Zealand
2733
01:12:07,782 --> 01:12:10,367
and in London.
2734
01:12:10,367 --> 01:12:13,454
Have they changed much
2735
01:12:10,367 --> 01:12:13,454
for gay people in Poland?
2736
01:12:13,454 --> 01:12:15,706
I think, yes.
2737
01:12:15,706 --> 01:12:18,668
People for sure
2738
01:12:15,706 --> 01:12:18,668
are more open.
2739
01:12:18,668 --> 01:12:20,753
Most of them,
2740
01:12:18,668 --> 01:12:20,753
especially the young people,
2741
01:12:20,753 --> 01:12:22,172
they are not frightened,
2742
01:12:22,172 --> 01:12:25,341
scared about talking about
2743
01:12:22,172 --> 01:12:25,341
their sexuality.
2744
01:12:25,341 --> 01:12:26,634
[Paul] You're openly gay?
2745
01:12:26,634 --> 01:12:28,094
-Yeah, I'm openly gay.
2746
01:12:26,634 --> 01:12:28,094
-I mean...
2747
01:12:28,094 --> 01:12:30,596
Your parents, they, they know
2748
01:12:28,094 --> 01:12:30,596
your gay?
2749
01:12:30,596 --> 01:12:32,932
Yeah, they, yeah,
2750
01:12:30,596 --> 01:12:32,932
my parents, my family.
2751
01:12:32,932 --> 01:12:35,143
Of course
2752
01:12:32,932 --> 01:12:35,143
they don't accept it, yeah?
2753
01:12:35,143 --> 01:12:36,602
I'm sorry for that.
2754
01:12:36,602 --> 01:12:40,106
And that's a bit sad
2755
01:12:36,602 --> 01:12:40,106
story about my life.
2756
01:12:40,106 --> 01:12:41,858
[Paul] And now, I mean,
2757
01:12:40,106 --> 01:12:41,858
you're are in a relationship,
2758
01:12:41,858 --> 01:12:43,234
-aren't you?
2759
01:12:41,858 --> 01:12:43,234
-Yeah. Yeah.
2760
01:12:43,234 --> 01:12:47,030
We met on Starbucks. [laughs]
2761
01:12:47,030 --> 01:12:50,741
That's, yeah, that's kind
2762
01:12:47,030 --> 01:12:50,741
of romantic story, yeah.
2763
01:12:50,741 --> 01:12:52,660
How long have you two
2764
01:12:50,741 --> 01:12:52,660
been together?
2765
01:12:52,660 --> 01:12:53,911
-Eight years.
2766
01:12:52,660 --> 01:12:53,911
-Eight years,
2767
01:12:53,911 --> 01:12:54,996
and that's, you're happy?
2768
01:12:54,996 --> 01:12:56,789
Yeah.
2769
01:12:54,996 --> 01:12:56,789
We are happy.
2770
01:12:56,789 --> 01:13:00,376
It's like the old couple,
2771
01:12:56,789 --> 01:13:00,376
old marriage couple right now.
2772
01:13:00,376 --> 01:13:04,672
We've got dogs,
2773
01:13:00,376 --> 01:13:04,672
so we've got kids actually.
2774
01:13:06,382 --> 01:13:09,635
-♪ True love ♪
2775
01:13:06,382 --> 01:13:09,635
-♪ Is what I feel for you ♪
2776
01:13:09,635 --> 01:13:12,805
-♪ True love ♪
2777
01:13:09,635 --> 01:13:12,805
-♪ I need it so bad ♪
2778
01:13:12,805 --> 01:13:14,431
♪ True love ♪
2779
01:13:14,431 --> 01:13:17,060
[Paul] Marriage?
2780
01:13:14,431 --> 01:13:17,060
Are you married?
2781
01:13:17,060 --> 01:13:18,644
Yes.
2782
01:13:19,937 --> 01:13:22,690
[Paul] Why did you
2783
01:13:19,937 --> 01:13:22,690
decide to get married?
2784
01:13:22,690 --> 01:13:24,567
Um, well,
2785
01:13:22,690 --> 01:13:24,567
we love each other.
2786
01:13:24,567 --> 01:13:26,277
That's, that was,
2787
01:13:26,277 --> 01:13:29,405
that was part, part of it.
2788
01:13:26,277 --> 01:13:29,405
[laughs]
2789
01:13:29,405 --> 01:13:31,824
[Norman] A major,
2790
01:13:29,405 --> 01:13:31,824
major part of it. [laughs]
2791
01:13:31,824 --> 01:13:32,992
[Paul] Would you
2792
01:13:31,824 --> 01:13:32,992
ever consider it,
2793
01:13:32,992 --> 01:13:34,785
if you met the right guy?
2794
01:13:34,785 --> 01:13:36,704
I've actually got
2795
01:13:34,785 --> 01:13:36,704
a scrapbook at home
2796
01:13:36,704 --> 01:13:38,497
with it all planned out.
2797
01:13:36,704 --> 01:13:38,497
[laughs]
2798
01:13:38,497 --> 01:13:40,833
[Nathan] We watched
2799
01:13:38,497 --> 01:13:40,833
the legalization,
2800
01:13:40,833 --> 01:13:42,877
you know, when they did it,
2801
01:13:40,833 --> 01:13:42,877
and we went to the gay bar,
2802
01:13:42,877 --> 01:13:44,503
and sort of,
2803
01:13:42,877 --> 01:13:44,503
watched it on TV.
2804
01:13:44,503 --> 01:13:46,505
And then afterwards
2805
01:13:44,503 --> 01:13:46,505
you did, you said,
2806
01:13:46,505 --> 01:13:48,299
you know, "Do you
2807
01:13:46,505 --> 01:13:48,299
want to get married?"
2808
01:13:48,299 --> 01:13:50,885
-Do you remember?
2809
01:13:48,299 --> 01:13:50,885
-Maybe.
2810
01:13:50,885 --> 01:13:53,846
[Gary] But it's also about
2811
01:13:50,885 --> 01:13:53,846
becoming acceptable
2812
01:13:53,846 --> 01:13:56,099
within the straight society is,
2813
01:13:53,846 --> 01:13:56,099
you're part of a couple.
2814
01:13:56,099 --> 01:13:59,227
You become part of a,
2815
01:13:56,099 --> 01:13:59,227
of a group of people
2816
01:13:59,227 --> 01:14:00,937
who've made a commitment
2817
01:13:59,227 --> 01:14:00,937
to each other.
2818
01:14:00,937 --> 01:14:03,689
So, amongst straight people
2819
01:14:00,937 --> 01:14:03,689
suddenly you've become
2820
01:14:03,689 --> 01:14:05,482
almost more acceptable.
2821
01:14:07,985 --> 01:14:09,112
[Sean] If you want
2822
01:14:07,985 --> 01:14:09,112
to get married because
2823
01:14:09,112 --> 01:14:10,738
you truly love an individual,
2824
01:14:10,738 --> 01:14:12,531
and you want a symbolic
2825
01:14:10,738 --> 01:14:12,531
solidification of that love,
2826
01:14:12,531 --> 01:14:13,991
then that's fine,
2827
01:14:12,531 --> 01:14:13,991
that's important,
2828
01:14:13,991 --> 01:14:15,118
you should have the right
2829
01:14:13,991 --> 01:14:15,118
to do that.
2830
01:14:15,118 --> 01:14:16,577
But if it's just to, like say,
2831
01:14:16,577 --> 01:14:18,121
"Hey, we're just like
2832
01:14:16,577 --> 01:14:18,121
everybody else,
2833
01:14:18,121 --> 01:14:19,789
we're respectable
2834
01:14:18,121 --> 01:14:19,789
upper crust society,"
2835
01:14:19,789 --> 01:14:21,498
no, that's bullshit.
2836
01:14:21,498 --> 01:14:24,710
-♪ True love ♪
2837
01:14:21,498 --> 01:14:24,710
-♪ Come on now, baby ♪
2838
01:14:24,710 --> 01:14:27,463
[Alan] Colin and I were
2839
01:14:24,710 --> 01:14:27,463
the first couple in Somerset
2840
01:14:27,463 --> 01:14:30,800
to contract a civil partnership,
2841
01:14:27,463 --> 01:14:30,800
and in actual fact,
2842
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:34,804
I think we beat Elton John
2843
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:34,804
by a couple of seconds.
2844
01:14:34,804 --> 01:14:36,889
We both felt something
2845
01:14:34,804 --> 01:14:36,889
had happened,
2846
01:14:36,889 --> 01:14:38,766
but we couldn't explain what.
2847
01:14:38,766 --> 01:14:41,978
But the wonderful thing was,
2848
01:14:38,766 --> 01:14:41,978
the number of people,
2849
01:14:41,978 --> 01:14:44,521
a small town in Somerset, people
2850
01:14:41,978 --> 01:14:44,521
come up, and said.
2851
01:14:44,521 --> 01:14:46,983
"Oh, well done.
2852
01:14:44,521 --> 01:14:46,983
Oh, I am happy for you."
2853
01:14:46,983 --> 01:14:49,193
That wouldn't have
2854
01:14:46,983 --> 01:14:49,193
happened once upon a time.
2855
01:14:52,989 --> 01:14:54,531
[Paul] I have a brother
2856
01:14:54,531 --> 01:14:56,617
and he had bought
2857
01:14:54,531 --> 01:14:56,617
a property in New Zealand;
2858
01:14:56,617 --> 01:14:58,828
an old colonial house
2859
01:14:56,617 --> 01:14:58,828
that he wanted to convert
2860
01:14:58,828 --> 01:15:00,204
into a Bed and Breakfast.
2861
01:15:00,204 --> 01:15:02,415
The idea came up
2862
01:15:00,204 --> 01:15:02,415
that perhaps John,
2863
01:15:02,415 --> 01:15:04,292
who'd always wanted
2864
01:15:02,415 --> 01:15:04,292
to live in New Zealand,
2865
01:15:04,292 --> 01:15:05,876
could go off
2866
01:15:04,292 --> 01:15:05,876
and give that a go,
2867
01:15:05,876 --> 01:15:07,378
and see if he liked it.
2868
01:15:07,378 --> 01:15:10,798
So he headed off to,
2869
01:15:07,378 --> 01:15:10,798
of all places, Rotorua,
2870
01:15:10,798 --> 01:15:14,427
this little tourist town,
2871
01:15:10,798 --> 01:15:14,427
and I was left in London.
2872
01:15:16,929 --> 01:15:19,932
I wondered if a long-distance
2873
01:15:16,929 --> 01:15:19,932
relationship could work.
2874
01:15:21,351 --> 01:15:23,102
[Paul] How long were you
2875
01:15:21,351 --> 01:15:23,102
with Colin?
2876
01:15:23,102 --> 01:15:24,228
[Alan] Fifty-plus years.
2877
01:15:24,228 --> 01:15:25,480
[Paul] What's the secret?
2878
01:15:25,480 --> 01:15:27,273
[Alan] We learnt to love
2879
01:15:25,480 --> 01:15:27,273
one another.
2880
01:15:27,273 --> 01:15:31,444
And you go from lust,
2881
01:15:31,444 --> 01:15:33,363
to love,
2882
01:15:33,363 --> 01:15:36,740
to very good friendship,
2883
01:15:33,363 --> 01:15:36,740
very deep friendship,
2884
01:15:36,740 --> 01:15:38,493
and then to pure love.
2885
01:15:38,493 --> 01:15:41,037
And it's in that last year,
2886
01:15:41,037 --> 01:15:44,832
and his bed was
2887
01:15:41,037 --> 01:15:44,832
at the end of my bed,
2888
01:15:44,832 --> 01:15:48,585
I think it was when you realize
2889
01:15:44,832 --> 01:15:48,585
what you are going to lose,
2890
01:15:48,585 --> 01:15:51,464
my God, you didn't
2891
01:15:48,585 --> 01:15:51,464
want to lose him.
2892
01:15:52,965 --> 01:15:56,302
You shouldn't ask me
2893
01:15:52,965 --> 01:15:56,302
questions like this.
2894
01:16:00,973 --> 01:16:02,683
[Paul] It was interesting
2895
01:16:00,973 --> 01:16:02,683
talking to Alan.
2896
01:16:02,683 --> 01:16:04,768
He'd been with his
2897
01:16:02,683 --> 01:16:04,768
partner for fifty years.
2898
01:16:04,768 --> 01:16:07,730
I guess you have to be lucky to
2899
01:16:04,768 --> 01:16:07,730
find the right person for you.
2900
01:16:09,065 --> 01:16:11,608
I was lucky
2901
01:16:09,065 --> 01:16:11,608
that I'd found John,
2902
01:16:11,608 --> 01:16:14,028
It's a strange
2903
01:16:11,608 --> 01:16:14,028
relationship we have.
2904
01:16:14,028 --> 01:16:17,698
But having him there in the
2905
01:16:14,028 --> 01:16:17,698
background is really important.
2906
01:16:17,698 --> 01:16:19,158
When he was back
2907
01:16:17,698 --> 01:16:19,158
in New Zealand
2908
01:16:19,158 --> 01:16:20,910
and I was in London,
2909
01:16:20,910 --> 01:16:22,995
and it suddenly,
2910
01:16:20,910 --> 01:16:22,995
it seemed more important
2911
01:16:22,995 --> 01:16:24,914
to spend time with him
2912
01:16:22,995 --> 01:16:24,914
than keep chasing
2913
01:16:24,914 --> 01:16:27,875
some crazy dreams
2914
01:16:24,914 --> 01:16:27,875
of making movies or
2915
01:16:27,875 --> 01:16:29,585
yet more men.
2916
01:16:27,875 --> 01:16:29,585
[laughs]
2917
01:16:29,585 --> 01:16:31,170
So much to my amazement,
2918
01:16:31,170 --> 01:16:32,796
I headed back
2919
01:16:31,170 --> 01:16:32,796
to New Zealand.
2920
01:16:34,215 --> 01:16:37,760
♪ When I wanna
2921
01:16:34,215 --> 01:16:37,760
See right through you ♪
2922
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,847
♪ Flyin', highin',
2923
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,847
Freddy voodoo ♪
2924
01:16:41,847 --> 01:16:46,143
♪ Lucid dreaming
2925
01:16:41,847 --> 01:16:46,143
Magic wonder ♪
2926
01:16:46,143 --> 01:16:47,895
[Paul] New Zealand
2927
01:16:46,143 --> 01:16:47,895
had changed completely
2928
01:16:47,895 --> 01:16:50,981
from the country I'd left
2929
01:16:47,895 --> 01:16:50,981
thirty-five years ago.
2930
01:16:50,981 --> 01:16:53,817
There was suddenly
2931
01:16:50,981 --> 01:16:53,817
a thriving café culture,
2932
01:16:53,817 --> 01:16:56,404
there were radio stations
2933
01:16:53,817 --> 01:16:56,404
that played Kiwi music,
2934
01:16:56,404 --> 01:16:59,990
there was a real sense
2935
01:16:56,404 --> 01:16:59,990
of its Pacific identity.
2936
01:16:59,990 --> 01:17:03,119
And of course, rugby, it's
2937
01:16:59,990 --> 01:17:03,119
still the national religion.
2938
01:17:03,119 --> 01:17:05,704
But now there was
2939
01:17:03,119 --> 01:17:05,704
even a gay team.
2940
01:17:05,704 --> 01:17:07,623
When Gavin and them
2941
01:17:05,704 --> 01:17:07,623
wanted to make up a team,
2942
01:17:07,623 --> 01:17:11,419
I came out of retirement
2943
01:17:07,623 --> 01:17:11,419
just to play in my thirties
2944
01:17:11,419 --> 01:17:13,254
and it was great
2945
01:17:13,254 --> 01:17:15,256
because I've always played
2946
01:17:13,254 --> 01:17:15,256
for heterosexual teams.
2947
01:17:15,256 --> 01:17:16,966
-[Paul] Things have
2948
01:17:15,256 --> 01:17:16,966
changed hugely.
2949
01:17:15,256 --> 01:17:16,966
-Yeah.
2950
01:17:16,966 --> 01:17:18,717
[Paul] And nowadays
2951
01:17:16,966 --> 01:17:18,717
everybody is equal,
2952
01:17:18,717 --> 01:17:20,094
we have gay marriage.
2953
01:17:20,094 --> 01:17:21,720
Is it necessary to have
2954
01:17:20,094 --> 01:17:21,720
something separate?
2955
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:24,140
I personally wouldn't be
2956
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:24,140
involved in a sporting team
2957
01:17:24,140 --> 01:17:26,183
if it wasn't for
2958
01:17:24,140 --> 01:17:26,183
a team like this.
2959
01:17:26,183 --> 01:17:27,935
Growing up closeted
2960
01:17:27,935 --> 01:17:30,104
or completely afraid
2961
01:17:27,935 --> 01:17:30,104
of my sexuality,
2962
01:17:30,104 --> 01:17:32,064
you have, I guess,
2963
01:17:30,104 --> 01:17:32,064
this idea of what it means
2964
01:17:32,064 --> 01:17:33,690
to be a gay man,
2965
01:17:33,690 --> 01:17:36,319
and it's a world apart from
2966
01:17:33,690 --> 01:17:36,319
somebody who plays sports,
2967
01:17:36,319 --> 01:17:38,154
particularly rugby,
2968
01:17:36,319 --> 01:17:38,154
you know?
2969
01:17:38,154 --> 01:17:40,323
Like, I guess, I just grew up
2970
01:17:38,154 --> 01:17:40,323
under the assumption
2971
01:17:40,323 --> 01:17:44,201
that people like me are not
2972
01:17:40,323 --> 01:17:44,201
liked by people like that.
2973
01:17:47,788 --> 01:17:49,748
[Paul] And I think one of the
2974
01:17:47,788 --> 01:17:49,748
things that's interesting is,
2975
01:17:49,748 --> 01:17:53,628
over the years you can roll up
2976
01:17:49,748 --> 01:17:53,628
in a totally strange place,
2977
01:17:53,628 --> 01:17:55,879
and get to meet people
2978
01:17:53,628 --> 01:17:55,879
who live there very rapidly
2979
01:17:55,879 --> 01:17:57,465
because you're gay,
2980
01:17:57,465 --> 01:17:59,634
and you are meeting them
2981
01:17:57,465 --> 01:17:59,634
for sex, socially.
2982
01:17:59,634 --> 01:18:01,552
But they often do
2983
01:17:59,634 --> 01:18:01,552
become friends.
2984
01:18:01,552 --> 01:18:04,180
♪ [rock music playing] ♪
2985
01:18:06,765 --> 01:18:09,685
[Paul] Steven was someone
2986
01:18:06,765 --> 01:18:09,685
I met in a sauna years ago.
2987
01:18:09,685 --> 01:18:11,103
He's now a very good friend.
2988
01:18:11,103 --> 01:18:12,813
He's a designer,
2989
01:18:12,813 --> 01:18:14,524
and it's always fun
2990
01:18:12,813 --> 01:18:14,524
to go round to his place.
2991
01:18:14,524 --> 01:18:16,567
I arrive, and find him
2992
01:18:14,524 --> 01:18:16,567
turning a painting
2993
01:18:16,567 --> 01:18:19,362
from some well-known
2994
01:18:16,567 --> 01:18:19,362
New Zealand artist into fabric
2995
01:18:19,362 --> 01:18:22,281
that clothes the body
2996
01:18:19,362 --> 01:18:22,281
of his friend Alibra Fleur
2997
01:18:22,281 --> 01:18:24,575
for some exhibition downtown.
2998
01:18:30,122 --> 01:18:32,416
The joy of being gay
2999
01:18:30,122 --> 01:18:32,416
for me growing up,
3000
01:18:32,416 --> 01:18:33,668
is being an outsider,
3001
01:18:33,668 --> 01:18:35,711
and I embraced a world
3002
01:18:33,668 --> 01:18:35,711
of outsiders.
3003
01:18:35,711 --> 01:18:37,129
Oh, yeah.
3004
01:18:37,129 --> 01:18:38,548
And I still live like, I mean,
3005
01:18:37,129 --> 01:18:38,548
look around you,
3006
01:18:38,548 --> 01:18:40,049
I mean, I still
3007
01:18:38,548 --> 01:18:40,049
live that way now.
3008
01:18:40,049 --> 01:18:41,676
I'm a fringe of a fringe.
3009
01:18:41,676 --> 01:18:44,178
I'm not even part of
3010
01:18:41,676 --> 01:18:44,178
the mainstream gay community,
3011
01:18:44,178 --> 01:18:46,472
I'm on fringe of that even.
3012
01:18:46,472 --> 01:18:47,931
[Paul] But that's
3013
01:18:46,472 --> 01:18:47,931
what is lovely.
3014
01:18:47,931 --> 01:18:49,183
I mean, your place,
3015
01:18:47,931 --> 01:18:49,183
and coming down here,
3016
01:18:49,183 --> 01:18:50,518
and spending
3017
01:18:49,183 --> 01:18:50,518
the time down here.
3018
01:18:50,518 --> 01:18:51,810
-That's what's so lovely.
3019
01:18:50,518 --> 01:18:51,810
-Yeah.
3020
01:18:55,898 --> 01:18:57,858
[Paul] I found New Zealand
3021
01:18:55,898 --> 01:18:57,858
was now full of people
3022
01:18:57,858 --> 01:18:59,652
who explored sexuality
3023
01:18:57,858 --> 01:18:59,652
in their own way.
3024
01:19:01,654 --> 01:19:03,406
There was a guy
3025
01:19:01,654 --> 01:19:03,406
at the cruise club
3026
01:19:03,406 --> 01:19:06,283
who liked wearing overalls
3027
01:19:03,406 --> 01:19:06,283
while he was having sex.
3028
01:19:07,535 --> 01:19:09,078
I even made out
3029
01:19:07,535 --> 01:19:09,078
with gay farmers.
3030
01:19:11,955 --> 01:19:13,541
He owned a large dairy farm,
3031
01:19:13,541 --> 01:19:15,251
and would occasionally
3032
01:19:13,541 --> 01:19:15,251
just come up to the city
3033
01:19:15,251 --> 01:19:17,836
to meet guys for sex
3034
01:19:15,251 --> 01:19:17,836
at the cruise club.
3035
01:19:17,836 --> 01:19:19,129
I kept in touch
3036
01:19:17,836 --> 01:19:19,129
with him for a while.
3037
01:19:29,223 --> 01:19:31,434
One of the things that
3038
01:19:29,223 --> 01:19:31,434
I realized coming back
3039
01:19:31,434 --> 01:19:34,978
to New Zealand is zero
3040
01:19:31,434 --> 01:19:34,978
degrees of separation.
3041
01:19:34,978 --> 01:19:37,440
I went on NZ Dating.
3042
01:19:37,440 --> 01:19:40,610
This quite sexy young guy,
3043
01:19:37,440 --> 01:19:40,610
it turns out he was a musician.
3044
01:19:42,486 --> 01:19:45,114
♪ [rock music playing] ♪
3045
01:19:45,114 --> 01:19:47,617
He said that he was
3046
01:19:45,114 --> 01:19:47,617
in a relationship,
3047
01:19:47,617 --> 01:19:49,702
but it was
3048
01:19:47,617 --> 01:19:49,702
an open relationship.
3049
01:19:49,702 --> 01:19:51,036
And that was fine,
3050
01:19:49,702 --> 01:19:51,036
and he said,
3051
01:19:51,036 --> 01:19:52,622
"Oh, you know,
3052
01:19:51,036 --> 01:19:52,622
what do you do?"
3053
01:19:52,622 --> 01:19:54,164
And I said, "I work in
3054
01:19:52,622 --> 01:19:54,164
a television company,
3055
01:19:54,164 --> 01:19:55,666
editing and making films."
3056
01:19:55,666 --> 01:19:57,918
And he said, "Oh, my
3057
01:19:55,666 --> 01:19:57,918
partner does as well."
3058
01:19:59,336 --> 01:20:01,714
And of course,
3059
01:19:59,336 --> 01:20:01,714
it was where I worked.
3060
01:20:03,466 --> 01:20:05,801
I guess for me the whole thing
3061
01:20:03,466 --> 01:20:05,801
with an open relationship is,
3062
01:20:05,801 --> 01:20:08,220
that it only really works
3063
01:20:05,801 --> 01:20:08,220
if I'm told.
3064
01:20:08,220 --> 01:20:11,348
Otherwise it's just,
3065
01:20:08,220 --> 01:20:11,348
sort of, this weird secret,
3066
01:20:11,348 --> 01:20:14,435
and makes me
3067
01:20:11,348 --> 01:20:14,435
feel sort of icky.
3068
01:20:16,103 --> 01:20:17,647
[Paul] I was certainly
3069
01:20:16,103 --> 01:20:17,647
very worried
3070
01:20:17,647 --> 01:20:20,190
about coming into work
3071
01:20:17,647 --> 01:20:20,190
the next morning.
3072
01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:21,984
You know, people say they
3073
01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:21,984
have an open relationship,
3074
01:20:21,984 --> 01:20:23,819
but it's not always true.
3075
01:20:26,155 --> 01:20:28,949
And Nathan, he just immediately
3076
01:20:26,155 --> 01:20:28,949
diffused the situation
3077
01:20:28,949 --> 01:20:31,577
by saying, "Oh, you met
3078
01:20:28,949 --> 01:20:31,577
my partner last night."
3079
01:20:31,577 --> 01:20:33,454
So I thought, phew!
3080
01:20:37,833 --> 01:20:40,961
I do find there are lots
3081
01:20:37,833 --> 01:20:40,961
of young gay couples
3082
01:20:40,961 --> 01:20:43,631
who somehow desperately
3083
01:20:40,961 --> 01:20:43,631
want to have the sort of,
3084
01:20:43,631 --> 01:20:45,257
what I call the picket fence.
3085
01:20:45,257 --> 01:20:47,468
Well, I flatted with
3086
01:20:45,257 --> 01:20:47,468
a couple of guys like that,
3087
01:20:47,468 --> 01:20:49,637
and we quite literally
3088
01:20:47,468 --> 01:20:49,637
had a picket fence
3089
01:20:49,637 --> 01:20:51,096
and two dogs.
3090
01:20:51,096 --> 01:20:52,765
And it was very
3091
01:20:51,096 --> 01:20:52,765
much that sort of
3092
01:20:52,765 --> 01:20:57,728
clean living, responsible
3093
01:20:52,765 --> 01:20:57,728
member of society kind of...
3094
01:20:57,728 --> 01:20:59,355
[Nathan] And that's something
3095
01:20:57,728 --> 01:20:59,355
that, in all fairness,
3096
01:20:59,355 --> 01:21:01,898
heterosexuals have
3097
01:20:59,355 --> 01:21:01,898
to deal with as well.
3098
01:21:01,898 --> 01:21:04,401
You know, you have girls growing
3099
01:21:01,898 --> 01:21:04,401
up watching Disney films,
3100
01:21:04,401 --> 01:21:07,488
so they have this image of the
3101
01:21:04,401 --> 01:21:07,488
prince and the princess thing.
3102
01:21:07,488 --> 01:21:10,157
And that's a lot of what
3103
01:21:07,488 --> 01:21:10,157
I think homosexual culture
3104
01:21:10,157 --> 01:21:11,992
is now sort of
3105
01:21:10,157 --> 01:21:11,992
aspiring towards,
3106
01:21:11,992 --> 01:21:14,495
the sort of
3107
01:21:11,992 --> 01:21:14,495
rom com conventions.
3108
01:21:14,495 --> 01:21:16,413
Oh yeah. You see that.
3109
01:21:14,495 --> 01:21:16,413
You see it.
3110
01:21:16,413 --> 01:21:18,957
Guys saying, "Oh, where's my
3111
01:21:16,413 --> 01:21:18,957
prince in shining armor."
3112
01:21:18,957 --> 01:21:21,711
It's like, "Who the fuck wants
3113
01:21:18,957 --> 01:21:21,711
a prince in shining armor?"
3114
01:21:22,961 --> 01:21:25,589
♪ [orchestral music playing] ♪
3115
01:21:25,589 --> 01:21:28,467
[Tom] Now when I was eighteen,
3116
01:21:25,589 --> 01:21:28,467
I did believe that.
3117
01:21:28,467 --> 01:21:29,760
I did believe that
3118
01:21:28,467 --> 01:21:29,760
the first person
3119
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:31,136
that I would fall in love with,
3120
01:21:31,136 --> 01:21:33,222
and I did fall in love
3121
01:21:31,136 --> 01:21:33,222
with a person, you know.
3122
01:21:33,222 --> 01:21:35,140
The feelings you have
3123
01:21:33,222 --> 01:21:35,140
at that moment is okay.
3124
01:21:35,140 --> 01:21:36,809
This is going to last forever.
3125
01:21:36,809 --> 01:21:38,769
You're just not realistic
3126
01:21:36,809 --> 01:21:38,769
about these things.
3127
01:21:38,769 --> 01:21:41,188
It's something that
3128
01:21:38,769 --> 01:21:41,188
can't be maintained I think,
3129
01:21:41,188 --> 01:21:42,398
I believe.
3130
01:21:42,398 --> 01:21:44,358
Simon and I
3131
01:21:42,398 --> 01:21:44,358
started out open.
3132
01:21:44,358 --> 01:21:47,361
For the first three years,
3133
01:21:44,358 --> 01:21:47,361
we had an open relationship.
3134
01:21:47,361 --> 01:21:49,196
One of the problems was
3135
01:21:49,196 --> 01:21:52,366
that I just started
3136
01:21:49,196 --> 01:21:52,366
to get very jealous.
3137
01:21:52,366 --> 01:21:55,118
Said to Simon, "Hey, I
3138
01:21:52,366 --> 01:21:55,118
think we should close it off
3139
01:21:55,118 --> 01:21:56,871
and be monogamous."
3140
01:21:56,871 --> 01:21:59,832
And he said, "Okay, then.".
3141
01:21:56,871 --> 01:21:59,832
And that's been the case since.
3142
01:21:59,832 --> 01:22:01,375
[Paul] So, it is
3143
01:21:59,832 --> 01:22:01,375
possible for gay men
3144
01:22:01,375 --> 01:22:03,126
to have monogamous
3145
01:22:01,375 --> 01:22:03,126
relationships?
3146
01:22:03,126 --> 01:22:05,588
[David] It is possible.
3147
01:22:03,126 --> 01:22:05,588
it is possible.
3148
01:22:05,588 --> 01:22:07,339
Just about.
3149
01:22:07,339 --> 01:22:08,924
Maybe a little bit of show and
3150
01:22:07,339 --> 01:22:08,924
tell at the gym once in a while,
3151
01:22:08,924 --> 01:22:10,676
but that doesn't count.
3152
01:22:10,676 --> 01:22:13,220
As long as you don't touch,
3153
01:22:10,676 --> 01:22:13,220
that's the thing. [laughs]
3154
01:22:17,433 --> 01:22:18,851
[Tom] Then you have
3155
01:22:17,433 --> 01:22:18,851
the other side,
3156
01:22:18,851 --> 01:22:21,103
like, where it's just
3157
01:22:18,851 --> 01:22:21,103
so business like.
3158
01:22:21,103 --> 01:22:23,773
Okay I'm this,
3159
01:22:21,103 --> 01:22:23,773
I'm that, I want this,
3160
01:22:23,773 --> 01:22:24,940
and I want that.
3161
01:22:24,940 --> 01:22:27,526
Come over here now,
3162
01:22:24,940 --> 01:22:27,526
satisfy me,
3163
01:22:27,526 --> 01:22:29,027
there's just no heart in it.
3164
01:22:34,241 --> 01:22:35,743
[Brogan] Yes, Grinder.
3165
01:22:35,743 --> 01:22:38,287
Yeah no, I must have,
3166
01:22:35,743 --> 01:22:38,287
like, uninstalled,
3167
01:22:38,287 --> 01:22:41,957
reinstalled it, like,
3168
01:22:38,287 --> 01:22:41,957
at least over a good hundred,
3169
01:22:41,957 --> 01:22:43,333
maybe a thousand times.
3170
01:22:41,957 --> 01:22:43,333
[laughs]
3171
01:22:43,333 --> 01:22:44,710
Grinder,
3172
01:22:44,710 --> 01:22:47,087
what do you think of Grinder,
3173
01:22:44,710 --> 01:22:47,087
out of interest?
3174
01:22:47,087 --> 01:22:48,380
It's a bit too addictive.
3175
01:22:50,257 --> 01:22:51,884
[Paul] He popped up
3176
01:22:50,257 --> 01:22:51,884
sixty yards away,
3177
01:22:51,884 --> 01:22:53,803
and it turns out he's
3178
01:22:51,884 --> 01:22:53,803
shifted into the apartment
3179
01:22:53,803 --> 01:22:55,220
right next to mine.
3180
01:22:55,220 --> 01:22:56,931
So, he wants to come
3181
01:22:55,220 --> 01:22:56,931
round when he's horny,
3182
01:22:56,931 --> 01:22:59,600
but, ah, he's young,
3183
01:22:56,931 --> 01:22:59,600
and he wants it too many times.
3184
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:00,476
[laughs]
3185
01:23:07,650 --> 01:23:08,984
[Gary] The internet
3186
01:23:07,650 --> 01:23:08,984
has come along,
3187
01:23:08,984 --> 01:23:10,653
which has changed
3188
01:23:08,984 --> 01:23:10,653
the way people meet.
3189
01:23:10,653 --> 01:23:11,946
The bars have gone.
3190
01:23:11,946 --> 01:23:14,406
I think we have lost,
3191
01:23:11,946 --> 01:23:14,406
lost a lot,
3192
01:23:14,406 --> 01:23:15,866
and we've
3193
01:23:14,406 --> 01:23:15,866
gained other things.
3194
01:23:17,409 --> 01:23:19,411
[Richard] As a consequence
3195
01:23:17,409 --> 01:23:19,411
of having gained acceptance
3196
01:23:19,411 --> 01:23:22,998
to some extent, we have,
3197
01:23:19,411 --> 01:23:22,998
we have lost something.
3198
01:23:22,998 --> 01:23:26,084
I think the heterosexual
3199
01:23:22,998 --> 01:23:26,084
community has made us them.
3200
01:23:26,084 --> 01:23:30,422
They've homogenized us into
3201
01:23:26,084 --> 01:23:30,422
the way that they do things.
3202
01:23:32,048 --> 01:23:33,634
[Sean] The Castro has basically
3203
01:23:32,048 --> 01:23:33,634
turned into Gay Disneyland.
3204
01:23:33,634 --> 01:23:35,594
You know, they have
3205
01:23:33,634 --> 01:23:35,594
fuckin' rainbow
3206
01:23:35,594 --> 01:23:36,804
crosswalks and all this shit.
3207
01:23:36,804 --> 01:23:38,681
And you have
3208
01:23:36,804 --> 01:23:38,681
people coming in and,
3209
01:23:38,681 --> 01:23:40,432
"Oh. Let's gawk at the gays.
3210
01:23:38,681 --> 01:23:40,432
Let's go do this and that."
3211
01:23:40,432 --> 01:23:42,810
But it's, we're, our sacred
3212
01:23:40,432 --> 01:23:42,810
spaces are being
3213
01:23:42,810 --> 01:23:45,395
completely eliminated
3214
01:23:42,810 --> 01:23:45,395
as a result of that.
3215
01:23:46,897 --> 01:23:49,149
[Norman] The sense of
3216
01:23:46,897 --> 01:23:49,149
community spirit and identity
3217
01:23:49,149 --> 01:23:51,067
that was there twenty,
3218
01:23:49,149 --> 01:23:51,067
thirty years ago
3219
01:23:51,067 --> 01:23:53,069
has slowly dissipated.
3220
01:23:53,069 --> 01:23:54,697
[Chris] We had
3221
01:23:53,069 --> 01:23:54,697
a ghetto for a while.
3222
01:23:54,697 --> 01:23:56,490
Partly that was
3223
01:23:54,697 --> 01:23:56,490
a defensive posture,
3224
01:23:56,490 --> 01:23:58,158
and partly it was great fun.
3225
01:23:58,158 --> 01:24:00,076
But one of the things
3226
01:23:58,158 --> 01:24:00,076
we're gonna have to get used to
3227
01:24:00,076 --> 01:24:05,165
in a culture which has decided
3228
01:24:00,076 --> 01:24:05,165
that we are now all equal
3229
01:24:05,165 --> 01:24:07,835
is that we possibly can't
3230
01:24:05,165 --> 01:24:07,835
live in that ghetto anymore.
3231
01:24:09,294 --> 01:24:10,963
[Sean] The Stud has actually
3232
01:24:09,294 --> 01:24:10,963
been one of the oldest
3233
01:24:10,963 --> 01:24:12,297
gay bars in San Francisco.
3234
01:24:12,297 --> 01:24:14,090
They just announced
3235
01:24:12,297 --> 01:24:14,090
they are going
3236
01:24:14,090 --> 01:24:14,967
to have be closing their doors.
3237
01:24:14,967 --> 01:24:16,385
You have The Gangway,
3238
01:24:16,385 --> 01:24:17,761
which was the first gay
3239
01:24:16,385 --> 01:24:17,761
bar in San Francisco,
3240
01:24:17,761 --> 01:24:19,221
they have to close
3241
01:24:17,761 --> 01:24:19,221
their doors this year.
3242
01:24:19,221 --> 01:24:20,848
The Lexington closed
3243
01:24:19,221 --> 01:24:20,848
their doors last year.
3244
01:24:20,848 --> 01:24:22,975
The gay culture in the city
3245
01:24:20,848 --> 01:24:22,975
really is eroding.
3246
01:24:24,852 --> 01:24:27,771
[Paul] Do you think it's
3247
01:24:24,852 --> 01:24:27,771
important to have separate clubs
3248
01:24:27,771 --> 01:24:29,565
for gay people to meet in?
3249
01:24:29,565 --> 01:24:32,275
I don't, I definitely don't
3250
01:24:29,565 --> 01:24:32,275
think we're at a point in,
3251
01:24:32,275 --> 01:24:34,695
society where the average
3252
01:24:32,275 --> 01:24:34,695
straight guy feels comfortable
3253
01:24:34,695 --> 01:24:36,030
being hit on by a gay guy
3254
01:24:36,030 --> 01:24:37,656
and is actually
3255
01:24:36,030 --> 01:24:37,656
comfortable enough to go,
3256
01:24:37,656 --> 01:24:40,659
"Oh sorry.
3257
01:24:37,656 --> 01:24:40,659
Not gay, moving on."
3258
01:24:40,659 --> 01:24:42,661
[Paul] Do you think it's
3259
01:24:40,659 --> 01:24:42,661
important to have a place
3260
01:24:42,661 --> 01:24:43,996
that's just for gay people?
3261
01:24:43,996 --> 01:24:45,748
[Mike] Yeah, I do,
3262
01:24:45,748 --> 01:24:48,250
where gay people can feel free
3263
01:24:45,748 --> 01:24:48,250
to make out with another dude
3264
01:24:48,250 --> 01:24:50,794
or hold someone's hand
3265
01:24:48,250 --> 01:24:50,794
or just dance with someone.
3266
01:24:50,794 --> 01:24:52,170
I think that's important.
3267
01:24:52,170 --> 01:24:53,714
[Paul] Would you not
3268
01:24:52,170 --> 01:24:53,714
feel free to do that
3269
01:24:53,714 --> 01:24:57,634
in the places that
3270
01:24:53,714 --> 01:24:57,634
you might go with your...
3271
01:24:57,634 --> 01:24:59,135
Oh, no.
3272
01:24:57,634 --> 01:24:59,135
I would be fine with it,
3273
01:24:59,135 --> 01:25:01,055
but I've gone on
3274
01:24:59,135 --> 01:25:01,055
dates with guys,
3275
01:25:01,055 --> 01:25:02,848
they don't want
3276
01:25:01,055 --> 01:25:02,848
to show any PDA;
3277
01:25:02,848 --> 01:25:04,808
not because they
3278
01:25:02,848 --> 01:25:04,808
are against PDA,
3279
01:25:04,808 --> 01:25:07,644
but mostly because they're
3280
01:25:04,808 --> 01:25:07,644
scared that that dude
3281
01:25:07,644 --> 01:25:10,480
over there is going to beat
3282
01:25:07,644 --> 01:25:10,480
them up or something.
3283
01:25:10,480 --> 01:25:12,900
Okay, slow down.
3284
01:25:10,480 --> 01:25:12,900
Um, my age is now showing.
3285
01:25:12,900 --> 01:25:16,319
-PDA?
3286
01:25:12,900 --> 01:25:16,319
-Public display of affection.
3287
01:25:16,319 --> 01:25:19,364
So, holding hands,
3288
01:25:16,319 --> 01:25:19,364
kissing, that sort of thing.
3289
01:25:21,784 --> 01:25:23,285
[Paul] Talking to Michael
3290
01:25:23,285 --> 01:25:25,621
and other young people
3291
01:25:23,285 --> 01:25:25,621
I met on this journey,
3292
01:25:25,621 --> 01:25:28,540
I feel there's still a need
3293
01:25:25,621 --> 01:25:28,540
for our own spaces.
3294
01:25:28,540 --> 01:25:30,918
Sadly, it's not just
3295
01:25:28,540 --> 01:25:30,918
in San Francisco
3296
01:25:30,918 --> 01:25:32,878
that the clubs and bars
3297
01:25:30,918 --> 01:25:32,878
are vanishing.
3298
01:25:34,337 --> 01:25:36,506
Returning to Soho
3299
01:25:34,337 --> 01:25:36,506
to film this documentary
3300
01:25:36,506 --> 01:25:38,174
was a real shock.
3301
01:25:41,303 --> 01:25:44,264
Many of the clubs
3302
01:25:41,303 --> 01:25:44,264
and bars were gone,
3303
01:25:44,264 --> 01:25:47,476
places were just boarded up
3304
01:25:44,264 --> 01:25:47,476
or being re-developed.
3305
01:25:56,359 --> 01:25:58,403
[Gary] That's very,
3306
01:25:56,359 --> 01:25:58,403
very sad that's gone
3307
01:25:58,403 --> 01:26:01,865
because we had experiences
3308
01:25:58,403 --> 01:26:01,865
which the younger gay people
3309
01:26:01,865 --> 01:26:03,283
just will never have.
3310
01:26:08,163 --> 01:26:13,418
[Chris] I was very much for
3311
01:26:08,163 --> 01:26:13,418
obtaining equal gay rights.
3312
01:26:13,418 --> 01:26:16,171
I'm not sure I actually
3313
01:26:13,418 --> 01:26:16,171
wanted to be the same.
3314
01:26:16,171 --> 01:26:17,840
We are fairly unique,
3315
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:22,136
and I mourn the loss
3316
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:22,136
of that uniqueness in a way.
3317
01:26:24,429 --> 01:26:27,057
[Sean] You wouldn't believe
3318
01:26:24,429 --> 01:26:27,057
how many young gay kids
3319
01:26:27,057 --> 01:26:28,391
that don't even know
3320
01:26:27,057 --> 01:26:28,391
about their gay history.
3321
01:26:28,391 --> 01:26:29,852
And I say,
3322
01:26:28,391 --> 01:26:29,852
"Oh, do you need a hanky?"
3323
01:26:29,852 --> 01:26:31,311
And they go,
3324
01:26:29,852 --> 01:26:31,311
"Well, what the fuck is that?
3325
01:26:31,311 --> 01:26:33,063
What is the hanky code?
3326
01:26:31,311 --> 01:26:33,063
Explain that to me?"
3327
01:26:33,063 --> 01:26:35,398
And I'm like, "Well, it was
3328
01:26:33,063 --> 01:26:35,398
a way for our gay ancestors
3329
01:26:35,398 --> 01:26:37,275
"to talk about
3330
01:26:35,398 --> 01:26:37,275
what they're into,
3331
01:26:37,275 --> 01:26:39,695
and express their kinks,
3332
01:26:37,275 --> 01:26:39,695
and go to a gay bar."
3333
01:26:39,695 --> 01:26:41,279
You can have a hanky in
3334
01:26:39,695 --> 01:26:41,279
your back pocket that's red,
3335
01:26:41,279 --> 01:26:43,490
and you say, "Oh, this guy
3336
01:26:41,279 --> 01:26:43,490
wants to fist somebody."
3337
01:26:49,913 --> 01:26:50,831
[Paul] My countdown
3338
01:26:49,913 --> 01:26:50,831
has been a sort of
3339
01:26:50,831 --> 01:26:53,000
historical romp.
3340
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:55,794
But, just for fun, I thought,
3341
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:55,794
well we've got to have
3342
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:55,794
a top 10.
3343
01:26:58,839 --> 01:27:01,842
I've been racking my brains on
3344
01:26:58,839 --> 01:27:01,842
who should be in the top 10.
3345
01:27:01,842 --> 01:27:03,969
So, I don't know,
3346
01:27:01,842 --> 01:27:03,969
Ben.
3347
01:27:06,138 --> 01:27:07,347
He is definitely top 10.
3348
01:27:07,347 --> 01:27:09,307
I mean, he's, like,
3349
01:27:07,347 --> 01:27:09,307
an escort, and,
3350
01:27:09,307 --> 01:27:11,518
yeah, he was good
3351
01:27:09,307 --> 01:27:11,518
at his job. [laughs]
3352
01:27:11,518 --> 01:27:13,062
Is there lots of money in it?
3353
01:27:13,062 --> 01:27:14,646
Oh, yeah,
3354
01:27:13,062 --> 01:27:14,646
the money is very good.
3355
01:27:14,646 --> 01:27:16,606
and it's been
3356
01:27:14,646 --> 01:27:16,606
recession-proof as well.
3357
01:27:16,606 --> 01:27:19,484
People seem to be
3358
01:27:16,606 --> 01:27:19,484
spending more on sex.
3359
01:27:20,819 --> 01:27:22,071
[Paul] One of the things
3360
01:27:20,819 --> 01:27:22,071
that people always,
3361
01:27:22,071 --> 01:27:23,530
sort of, say is,
3362
01:27:22,071 --> 01:27:23,530
"Oh, you know,
3363
01:27:23,530 --> 01:27:25,115
what happens
3364
01:27:23,530 --> 01:27:25,115
when you get old?"
3365
01:27:25,115 --> 01:27:27,617
And, you know, gay people
3366
01:27:25,115 --> 01:27:27,617
are so fixated on youth.
3367
01:27:27,617 --> 01:27:29,327
And I can honestly say
3368
01:27:29,327 --> 01:27:32,414
that some of the best sex
3369
01:27:29,327 --> 01:27:32,414
that I've ever had in my life
3370
01:27:32,414 --> 01:27:34,041
has been with him.
3371
01:27:34,041 --> 01:27:35,500
[Alan] Yes.
3372
01:27:35,500 --> 01:27:38,587
There's many a good tune
3373
01:27:35,500 --> 01:27:38,587
played on an old fiddle.
3374
01:27:38,587 --> 01:27:42,091
I have a gardener
3375
01:27:38,587 --> 01:27:42,091
who is sixty-one,
3376
01:27:42,091 --> 01:27:44,551
and I think he's,
3377
01:27:42,091 --> 01:27:44,551
you know.
3378
01:27:44,551 --> 01:27:46,053
I wouldn't mind.
3379
01:27:46,053 --> 01:27:48,805
And, remember, to me,
3380
01:27:46,053 --> 01:27:48,805
he is a chicken. [laughs]
3381
01:27:51,141 --> 01:27:53,309
Yeah, there are some
3382
01:27:51,141 --> 01:27:53,309
really sexy guys on here.
3383
01:27:53,309 --> 01:27:56,479
Ah, kinky hot.
3384
01:27:53,309 --> 01:27:56,479
That's hot as hell. [laughs]
3385
01:27:57,647 --> 01:27:58,982
Another person on the list
3386
01:27:58,982 --> 01:28:00,525
is someone I just call
3387
01:27:58,982 --> 01:28:00,525
"The Writer".
3388
01:28:00,525 --> 01:28:01,902
We've sort of drifted apart
3389
01:28:01,902 --> 01:28:03,445
and he's gone off
3390
01:28:01,902 --> 01:28:03,445
to do other things.
3391
01:28:03,445 --> 01:28:05,572
But without him,
3392
01:28:03,445 --> 01:28:05,572
I wouldn't have been able
3393
01:28:05,572 --> 01:28:07,116
to make some of the films
3394
01:28:05,572 --> 01:28:07,116
that I've made.
3395
01:28:09,618 --> 01:28:11,327
One of the things
3396
01:28:09,618 --> 01:28:11,327
about the top 10,
3397
01:28:11,327 --> 01:28:12,788
it's actually about
3398
01:28:11,327 --> 01:28:12,788
the friendship
3399
01:28:12,788 --> 01:28:14,664
more than just the sex.
3400
01:28:14,664 --> 01:28:16,875
[Graham] My times
3401
01:28:14,664 --> 01:28:16,875
coming to your flat
3402
01:28:16,875 --> 01:28:18,585
are times that
3403
01:28:16,875 --> 01:28:18,585
I really cherished.
3404
01:28:18,585 --> 01:28:21,379
And I felt safe,
3405
01:28:18,585 --> 01:28:21,379
I felt comfortable,
3406
01:28:21,379 --> 01:28:24,174
you were a nice man,
3407
01:28:21,379 --> 01:28:24,174
it was sexy,
3408
01:28:24,174 --> 01:28:25,175
all those sorts of...
3409
01:28:25,175 --> 01:28:26,260
This is nice.
3410
01:28:26,260 --> 01:28:28,053
Keep saying it.
3411
01:28:26,260 --> 01:28:28,053
Keep saying it.
3412
01:28:28,053 --> 01:28:30,305
[Graham] There were two
3413
01:28:28,053 --> 01:28:30,305
people who came to mind
3414
01:28:30,305 --> 01:28:31,807
when I thought of you.
3415
01:28:31,807 --> 01:28:34,684
Panos, and I've
3416
01:28:31,807 --> 01:28:34,684
never known his name.
3417
01:28:34,684 --> 01:28:37,187
He lived on the
3418
01:28:34,684 --> 01:28:37,187
council estate nearby...
3419
01:28:37,187 --> 01:28:38,105
His name was Paul.
3420
01:28:40,356 --> 01:28:41,817
Is he being
3421
01:28:40,356 --> 01:28:41,817
involved in this?
3422
01:28:41,817 --> 01:28:43,902
I can't track Paul down.
3423
01:28:41,817 --> 01:28:43,902
I would love too.
3424
01:28:43,902 --> 01:28:45,528
-He's on the list.
3425
01:28:43,902 --> 01:28:45,528
-Because he was fascinating.
3426
01:28:48,282 --> 01:28:50,075
[Paul] One of the people
3427
01:28:48,282 --> 01:28:50,075
I just thought would be good
3428
01:28:50,075 --> 01:28:51,409
to have in the top 10
3429
01:28:51,409 --> 01:28:53,120
is someone I just call
3430
01:28:51,409 --> 01:28:53,120
"The Teacher".
3431
01:28:54,955 --> 01:28:56,539
He recently married
3432
01:28:54,955 --> 01:28:56,539
his boyfriend
3433
01:28:56,539 --> 01:28:58,541
and they've adopted
3434
01:28:56,539 --> 01:28:58,541
two children,
3435
01:28:58,541 --> 01:29:00,418
and they love being parents.
3436
01:29:00,418 --> 01:29:02,296
[Chris] I didn't think we'd
3437
01:29:00,418 --> 01:29:02,296
see that kind of change
3438
01:29:02,296 --> 01:29:03,630
for a hundred years.
3439
01:29:03,630 --> 01:29:05,674
And it's gone,
3440
01:29:03,630 --> 01:29:05,674
that, that prejudice,
3441
01:29:05,674 --> 01:29:07,801
that belief that
3442
01:29:05,674 --> 01:29:07,801
gays are monsters.
3443
01:29:09,303 --> 01:29:11,180
[Chris] What has happened
3444
01:29:09,303 --> 01:29:11,180
over the last forty years
3445
01:29:11,180 --> 01:29:14,224
is absolutely fundamental
3446
01:29:11,180 --> 01:29:14,224
to where we are today.
3447
01:29:14,224 --> 01:29:15,851
I'm not saying
3448
01:29:14,224 --> 01:29:15,851
everything is right,
3449
01:29:15,851 --> 01:29:17,644
I'm not saying we've
3450
01:29:15,851 --> 01:29:17,644
achieved everything,
3451
01:29:17,644 --> 01:29:20,480
but we have achieved
3452
01:29:17,644 --> 01:29:20,480
an enormous amount.
3453
01:29:21,898 --> 01:29:24,400
♪ [light piano music] ♪
3454
01:29:32,367 --> 01:29:35,370
[crowd cheers]
3455
01:29:45,339 --> 01:29:47,632
[Paul] The most amazing thing,
3456
01:29:45,339 --> 01:29:47,632
filming gay pride in London
3457
01:29:47,632 --> 01:29:49,009
was to see gay Muslims
3458
01:29:49,009 --> 01:29:51,636
proudly marching
3459
01:29:49,009 --> 01:29:51,636
with everyone else.
3460
01:29:58,143 --> 01:30:00,854
My friend Brian would
3461
01:29:58,143 --> 01:30:00,854
have loved seeing that.
3462
01:30:00,854 --> 01:30:02,981
I still miss him a lot,
3463
01:30:02,981 --> 01:30:05,317
And Brian has to be
3464
01:30:02,981 --> 01:30:05,317
in the top 10.
3465
01:30:07,819 --> 01:30:09,988
[crowd cheering]
3466
01:30:14,408 --> 01:30:17,079
The Club Kid
3467
01:30:14,408 --> 01:30:17,079
is on here because,
3468
01:30:17,079 --> 01:30:19,581
in a strange sort of way,
3469
01:30:17,079 --> 01:30:19,581
he's a bit of a fantasy.
3470
01:30:21,833 --> 01:30:23,168
Beautiful looking.
3471
01:30:23,168 --> 01:30:25,628
I mean, you know,
3472
01:30:23,168 --> 01:30:25,628
he was a like a model.
3473
01:30:25,628 --> 01:30:27,381
Totally closeted.
3474
01:30:27,381 --> 01:30:30,633
Playing with this whole
3475
01:30:27,381 --> 01:30:30,633
S&M strange relationship.
3476
01:30:32,386 --> 01:30:34,888
We almost met up
3477
01:30:32,386 --> 01:30:34,888
last time I went over there.
3478
01:30:34,888 --> 01:30:36,765
But we didn't meet,
3479
01:30:36,765 --> 01:30:38,432
but perhaps better
3480
01:30:36,765 --> 01:30:38,432
left as a fantasy.
3481
01:30:40,394 --> 01:30:42,645
The Club Kid
3482
01:30:40,394 --> 01:30:42,645
is still an outsider.
3483
01:30:42,645 --> 01:30:45,357
Maybe that's why
3484
01:30:42,645 --> 01:30:45,357
the connection was so deep.
3485
01:30:51,196 --> 01:30:54,366
I literally met
3486
01:30:51,196 --> 01:30:54,366
this guy in a carpark,
3487
01:30:54,366 --> 01:30:56,576
I was sixteen/seventeen.
3488
01:30:56,576 --> 01:30:58,870
He was beautiful.
3489
01:30:56,576 --> 01:30:58,870
He had long blond hair.
3490
01:30:58,870 --> 01:31:02,082
He was the beautiful
3491
01:30:58,870 --> 01:31:02,082
surfer dude that I'd seen,
3492
01:31:02,082 --> 01:31:03,583
you know, with my mates.
3493
01:31:05,294 --> 01:31:08,797
What I actually remember
3494
01:31:05,294 --> 01:31:08,797
is that we hugged afterwards,
3495
01:31:08,797 --> 01:31:10,590
and it was intense,
3496
01:31:10,590 --> 01:31:13,760
and somehow it's made
3497
01:31:10,590 --> 01:31:13,760
that sex meaningful.
3498
01:31:15,887 --> 01:31:17,306
[James] For me,
3499
01:31:15,887 --> 01:31:17,306
it was always just about
3500
01:31:17,306 --> 01:31:20,058
having someone to share
3501
01:31:17,306 --> 01:31:20,058
everything with,
3502
01:31:20,058 --> 01:31:23,019
and tell him all the deep dark
3503
01:31:20,058 --> 01:31:23,019
secrets which,
3504
01:31:23,019 --> 01:31:25,439
a lot of which don't
3505
01:31:23,019 --> 01:31:25,439
turn out to be such
3506
01:31:25,439 --> 01:31:28,233
deep dark secrets when you're
3507
01:31:25,439 --> 01:31:28,233
with the right person.
3508
01:31:34,488 --> 01:31:35,865
That's very easy,
3509
01:31:34,488 --> 01:31:35,865
number one.
3510
01:31:35,865 --> 01:31:37,617
I mean, you know,
3511
01:31:35,865 --> 01:31:37,617
it has to be John.
3512
01:31:40,245 --> 01:31:43,999
Ever since I met John,
3513
01:31:40,245 --> 01:31:43,999
I never stopped loving him,
3514
01:31:43,999 --> 01:31:46,460
and it gets stronger.
3515
01:31:46,460 --> 01:31:48,170
I miss him,
3516
01:31:48,170 --> 01:31:49,421
perhaps because I don't
3517
01:31:48,170 --> 01:31:49,421
spend all my time with him.
3518
01:31:49,421 --> 01:31:50,672
But,
3519
01:31:50,672 --> 01:31:53,425
I can't imagine life
3520
01:31:50,672 --> 01:31:53,425
without John.
3521
01:31:53,425 --> 01:31:56,052
I love him
3522
01:31:53,425 --> 01:31:56,052
and he loves me.
3523
01:32:01,350 --> 01:32:03,852
And it's his support
3524
01:32:01,350 --> 01:32:03,852
that allows me to carry on
3525
01:32:03,852 --> 01:32:06,355
making films like this.
3526
01:32:06,355 --> 01:32:08,482
It's been an amazing journey.
3527
01:32:08,482 --> 01:32:12,277
I've met so many brave,
3528
01:32:08,482 --> 01:32:12,277
courageous, and honest people.
3529
01:32:12,277 --> 01:32:14,779
I realize, together,
3530
01:32:12,277 --> 01:32:14,779
we've been part of a movement
3531
01:32:14,779 --> 01:32:17,032
that's changed the world.
3532
01:32:18,700 --> 01:32:21,286
I never thought, as a confused,
3533
01:32:18,700 --> 01:32:21,286
screwed-up teenager,
3534
01:32:21,286 --> 01:32:22,996
that, one day,
3535
01:32:21,286 --> 01:32:22,996
I'd see a gay Bishop,
3536
01:32:22,996 --> 01:32:24,498
or out politicians,
3537
01:32:24,498 --> 01:32:26,416
or have such a fantastic
3538
01:32:24,498 --> 01:32:26,416
boyfriend
3539
01:32:26,416 --> 01:32:28,210
to share my life with.
3540
01:32:31,921 --> 01:32:34,632
And though many people
3541
01:32:31,921 --> 01:32:34,632
still struggle with being gay,
3542
01:32:34,632 --> 01:32:37,219
I know there's a fantastic
3543
01:32:34,632 --> 01:32:37,219
world out there.
3544
01:32:37,219 --> 01:32:38,928
Love is always just
3545
01:32:37,219 --> 01:32:38,928
around the corner,
3546
01:32:38,928 --> 01:32:40,554
and in the meantime,
3547
01:32:40,554 --> 01:32:42,974
there are hundreds
3548
01:32:40,554 --> 01:32:42,974
of wonderful men to meet.
3549
01:32:46,602 --> 01:32:49,398
♪ [light electronic music] ♪
3550
01:32:53,609 --> 01:32:56,570
"Nice boy wants another
3551
01:32:53,609 --> 01:32:56,570
nice boy to go to bed with
3552
01:32:56,570 --> 01:32:57,780
and do everything else with."
3553
01:33:01,993 --> 01:33:04,620
"Working Class Hero
3554
01:33:01,993 --> 01:33:04,620
seeks gay revolution.
3555
01:33:04,620 --> 01:33:06,039
Butch and dogmatic."
3556
01:33:06,039 --> 01:33:06,915
[laughs]
3557
01:33:10,877 --> 01:33:13,922
"Anybody into last resorts
3558
01:33:10,877 --> 01:33:13,922
can contact me."
3559
01:33:13,922 --> 01:33:15,048
[laughs]
3560
01:33:19,094 --> 01:33:22,222
"Young cuckoo seeks nest,
3561
01:33:19,094 --> 01:33:22,222
bring own feathers."
3562
01:33:22,222 --> 01:33:24,558
♪ [light electronic music] ♪
3563
01:33:31,022 --> 01:33:35,151
♪
3564
01:33:45,161 --> 01:33:49,291
♪
3565
01:34:01,344 --> 01:34:05,474
♪
205214
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