All language subtitles for Hillsong.A.Megachurch.Exposed.2022.1080p.WEBRip.x264.AAC-[YTS.MX]

[soft music playing]

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[woman] Have you ever heard
of Hillsong Church?

Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

Yes, I do know
Hillsong Church.

Hillsong is an evangelical
musical big church.

I've heard of it,

I think mainly
through Justin Bieber.

It was the first church
that I actually went to
in New York City.

I went every single Sunday.

I know it's a very large
international community

I know it's a very large
international community

that's reaching
the far corners of the world

to kind of spread the gospel.

Come on, let's have
some praise tonight.

[intense music playing]

[reporter] Hillsong has grown
into one of the most

influential mega churches
in the world.

They're huge now.

They're huge,
especially in America.

I'm a really big fan
of the music.

[Elle] They've had
over three billion views
on YouTube.

They are very much
of themselves

their own brand.

their own brand.

They're global.
They're great at Instagram.

[man] I mean,
Carl Lentz is the superstar.

Sheep desperately
need a shepherd.

Hillsong is
the celebrity church, right?

[reporter] Celebrity attendees
from Justin Bieber,

to Vanessa Hudgens,
to Chris Pratt.

The music is unbelievable.

You've got famous people
attending the church.

It's like a rock show.

[reporter] Leading the way
is the church's founder

and Senior Pastor
Brian Houston.

and Senior Pastor
Brian Houston.

Hillsong was able to somehow
influence its way

into some of the most
powerful circles ever.

[Brian] Well, what an honor
to be standing

in the White House
in the Cabinet Room.

[soft dramatic music playing]

[producer] Were you surprised
when it all kind of
came crashing down?

It was a huge fall from grace.

[reporter] Carl Lentz
is working on damage control.

Nothing about Hillsong
surprises me.

[reporter] Hillsong
appeared to be succeeding,

building a global brand
before a dramatic unraveling.

building a global brand
before a dramatic unraveling.

I swear by the Almighty God.

This is gonna be...
Gonna get ugly for all of us.

[intense music playing]

[vocalizing]

[upbeat music playing]

[siren wailing]

[siren wailing]

[Brando] You could arrive
an hour before service

and there would be a line
starting to form
around the block.

We would always be
greeting people,

probably carrying trays
with snacks and things.

[Brando] There was already
that excitement and buzz.

So doors would be open.

You would come in
big posters saying,

"Welcome home. You belong.
Come as you are."

[Richard] The first thing
you see is a welcome team.

[Brando] They're usually
the nicest people.

[Brando] They're usually
the nicest people.

You know,
"Richard, you're amazing.

We're so happy
to have you here.

We can see great things
for your future.

You know, we really love you."

They really make you
feel welcome,

make you feel wanted,
and make you feel good.

[Neomi] Everyone's wearing
what they want.

There is diversity on stage
and among the people
in the pews.

Hillsong is a safe space
for them.

I could be whoever I wanted.
People didn't care.

I could be whoever I wanted.
People didn't care.

This was gonna be a place
where I could call my home.

I need a minute.

That... It hurts to look back
because I was so into it.

I was so embedded in it.

I wanted to believe it.

[Richard] They make you feel
so good.

And before you know it,
you know, you...

You're right in it
and you're committed.

You're right in it
and you're committed.

But unfortunately,
there's something
more sinister

under the surface I found.

I am...

When I left,

I genuinely believed
I was the problem.

I'm sorry.
I'm kind of getting emotional.

The beliefs
that they put in you go deep.

They really get in your head.

[Neomi] Now that I look back
I'm like damn

like they're trying
to manipulate you

into receiving
and accepting the abuse
that they're causing.

It was traumatic,

and it could've taken my life
if I stayed a minute longer.

[dramatic music playing]

[dramatic music playing]

[birds chirping]

My name is Tanya Levin,
and I spent my teenage years

in the church called
Hills Christian Life Centre,

which is the church
that became Hillsong.

Frank Houston,
who had previously been

the superintendent
of the Assemblies of God
in New Zealand,

moved here in the late '70s.

And a couple of years later

his son Brian
and his wife Bobbie
came here, too.

Frank had started
Sydney Christian Life Centre
in the center of Sydney

Frank had started
Sydney Christian Life Centre
in the center of Sydney

that he was quite
the hell fire
and brimstone preacher.

[Frank] The world is in
for a tremendous shock.

Jesus is gonna come suddenly.

[Tanya] So it was all very
old school in the beginning.

Eventually, they branched out
and Frank started another one

in the Hills area,

and he put his son
in charge of it.

It was a really warm
community, family environment.

There were like 300 people
when we started there

There were like 300 people
when we started there

and it was in
an old warehouse

and somewhere in those
late '80s,
things really changed.

♪ So let us dance
And praise the Lord, whoa ♪

♪ Let us dance
And praise the Lord ♪

Brian really wanted
to start expanding,
but we're just, you know,

a small little
suburban church,

we don't know
how to really reach people.

So Brian went on a trip
to the States...

and made friends with a guy
called Casey Treat.

and made friends with a guy
called Casey Treat.

You can prosper in your soul.

You can rise above
those negatives.

The product, that those of us
who know we are good down,

then we are his children.

I'm an Australian-born
journalist.

I've written a book
on the neo-charismatic

Pentecostal movement

and I've written a lot
about Hillsong

in its various iterations
around the world.

The Pentecostal movement
started in Kansas
and California

at the start
of the 20th century.

It was people who wanted
to speak in tongues,
as was foretold in the Bible.

It was people who wanted
to speak in tongues,
as was foretold in the Bible.

And then in the '60s,
it was born again,
if you will,

by a musician,
one of the founding members

of what became
the Righteous Brothers.

It was disaffected new ages

who had been
at the Summer of Love
in Haight-Ashbury.

Some people call them,
you know, hippie Jesus.

It was about bringing
the music at the time

and merging with religion
and saying, you know,

it's okay to do this,
which was really quite radical
at the time.

[man] Jim and Tammy,
air date 1086-13.

[man] Jim and Tammy,
air date 1086-13.

[announcer]
The PTL Television Network
presents Jim and Tammy.

[singers] ♪ Praise the Lord ♪

♪ See the things
That he has done ♪

[Elle] The third wave,
which really got going in

the '70s,
and certainly the '80s

was much more global
and it was much more
corporate.

It was about taking
these movements

and making them very branded

and understanding that church
can be done in a new way,
a modern way,

something that people like
and enjoy.

something that people like
and enjoy.

So Brian realized
this is how you do it.

So it was all about the music

and taking the global aspects
that the world was going in

and putting that into church
and making people

feel a part
of something bigger

and understanding
it was about giving consumers
what they want.

You know,
the customer is always right.

While traveling
the United States,

Brian Houston learned how
to get money out of people,

so that they could build
the kingdom.

So one of the ideas
of the Pentecostal movement

So one of the ideas
of the Pentecostal movement

is that there's
a special messenger

and this messenger
has been anointed by God
to bring the message,

and some of that message
then is prosperity.

As surely as I'm speaking
by the Spirit of God

that is a word
for a person right now,

that is God
penetrating your heart.

It's burning
on the inside of you.

And you need to make
a vow of faith
of a $1,000.

"Oh, Bob,
couldn't you say $25,000?" No.

Prosperity gospel
is when you accept Jesus.

Prosperity gospel
is when you accept Jesus.

You should be
expecting blessing

in terms of financial
prosperity.

You will be blessed
and you will invite
others over

after you played,
and they will be blessed, too.

You want it,
you're gonna get it.

Health, wealth, success.

But I'm here
to tell you tonight

you have chance
to raise your income.

Praise God.

Brian was going,
"Wow, you can really do that?"

I'm gonna have
some of that for me.

And he came back with,
you know, um,
stars in his eyes.

And he came back with,
you know, um,
stars in his eyes.

That was where
the real change happened.

And the church that I see
is a church of influence.

It's a church so large in size
that the city and nation
cannot ignore it.

[Tanya] Brian Houston released
this mission statement

and it was titled,
"The church that I see."

He talked about wanting
a church that filled stadiums

and influenced cities
and was spread
around the globe.

It's a church
growing so quickly,

It's a church
growing so quickly,

that buildings struggle
to contain the increase.

The church that I see
is a church so committed
to the raising, the training,

and empowering
of a leadership generation

that all its ministries
are consumed with this goal.

[dramatic music playing]

Brian Houston was very clever
at packaging

what his father had done
in terms of planting churches

and being a part
of the Pentecostal movement,
but really modernizing them.

and being a part
of the Pentecostal movement,
but really modernizing them.

[soft music playing]

And understanding
that it's just about,

you know, getting more people
in the door.

It really got going
in the early '90s
with Hillsong Worship.

That was when they really hit
on the music angle

and how popular that would be
and started spreading it
around Sydney and Australia.

[man] Our fastest selling
praise and worship album is,

God is in the House
another live recording
from Hillsong Australia.

[Elle] Growing up in Sydney
where Hillsong started,

I did have a friend
who invited me
to a Hillsong evening,

which was a stadium
spectacular.

My parents
were a bit skeptical
about letting me go,

but this is part of the appeal
of Hillsong

is that, well,
there are worse things

a 15-year-old daughter can be
doing on a Saturday night.

So they let me go
and I experienced it.

I didn't really think
a lot at the time,

but I saw Hillsong
come to prominence

and realized
that I'd experience it
without really knowing.

They had a former child star,
Darlene Zschech.

They had a former child star,
Darlene Zschech.

That with our God,
all things are possible.

Who helped bring
about Hillsong Worship music.

-[upbeat music playing]
-[Darlene] Come on.

♪ Yeah, yeah ♪

She was very much tuned
into the musical culture
of the time

and made good music
and Hillsong
started producing that.

♪ Shout to the Lord
All the earth ♪

♪ Let us sing ♪

♪ Power and majesty,
Praise to the King ♪

♪ Power and majesty,
Praise to the King ♪

Hillsong was originally
the name of the band

and then the band,
and the music became so big

that the church
changed its name to Hillsong.

♪ Your love is so good ♪

♪ Jesus ♪

Hillsong started
producing it well
and exporting it overseas

and the brand really took off
from there.

[dramatic music playing]

[Kelsey] I grew up going
to a very big mega church.

I reported a story
for The FADER in 2018
on Hillsong.

I have no idea
how much of an impact

they had on
American evangelicalism
or even my own childhood.

But I started looking into it

and suddenly
all of these songs

that I had heard
my whole life,

I realized were written by
Hillsong in the first place.

Their songs are better
than everyone else's

and they can kind of
infiltrate into other churches
by having good music.

and they can kind of
infiltrate into other churches
by having good music.

♪ Spirit lead me ♪

♪ When my trust
Is without borders ♪

♪ Let me walk
Upon the waters ♪

♪ Wherever you would
Call me ♪

♪ Take me deeper... ♪

What Hillsong did
was kind of marry

the music that they wanted
to sing in church,

the themes,
with contemporary music,

so early Hillsong music,
the 2000s
sounds like 2000s pop.

so early Hillsong music,
the 2000s
sounds like 2000s pop.

Today's Hillsong music
sounds like Coldplay.

♪ That's around the dawning ♪

♪ It's cold ♪

[Kelsey] The goal of Hillsong
is to stay current.

It's making music
that you know
people will like,

and instead of refurbishing
your grandma's old hymns,
it's something new and shiny.

[singer] ♪ No more shall
They... ♪

[Kelsey] These kind
of swells of emotion

and huge momentous
chord progressions.

and huge momentous
chord progressions.

[singer] ♪ I'm so tired ♪

[Kelsey] It's made
to make you feel something.

They want you to feel
the presence of God
within you.

But it's easy to mistake
emotional manipulation
for a movement of God, right?

Are you crying
because the Lord is staging

some kind of intervention
in your life

or are you crying
because the chord structure
is built to make you cry?

[cheering]

♪ You call me out
Upon the waters ♪

♪ The great unknown ♪

♪ Where feet may fail ♪

So if you go to Hillsong
any week,

there are songs that even
if you went every week

you would have never heard
because they're new.

They're being tested
live on the audience

every Sunday,
which is kind of funny, right?

You say like
you're going to worship.

You're going to, like,
experience your faith.

You're going to, like,
experience your faith.

Your once a week practice.

And unbeknownst to you,
the people on stage

who are leading you
in this like emotional worship

are testing their new products
on you, right?

It's kind of a weird dynamic.

[Tanya] Music's a really huge
department,

because it's so critical
to the hypnosis.

The music
is completely weaponized

for whatever
the church's needs are,
as well as financial,

which is the aim of the game,

is to get the money
out of the people.

is to get the money
out of the people.

Hillsong has done a great job
of monetizing the music.

It's been a tremendous revenue
source for the ministry.

[female reporter]
Young people are drawn
to Hillsong's music.

The church has its own
record label

that sold 16 million albums
worldwide

and earns $100 million a year.

It's a mammoth
amount of money.

[soft dramatic music playing]

[Tanya] And, you know,
it's just about growth.

[Tanya] And, you know,
it's just about growth.

It's about expansion.

They very much
wanna spread their tentacles
as far as they can.

Brian always said,
"Without a vision,
the people perish."

He had global expansion,
intentions upfront,

explicit intentions
to take over the world
with his church.

[suspenseful music playing]

Hillsong is an incredibly
successful organization.

You know, they have massive
influence around the world.

And I can elaborate on that
if you want.

I kind of categorized them
into six Cs.

One, they're a Church.

[Brian] Proverbs 4,
verse 25 says,

"Let your eyes
look straight ahead."

[Bruce] Then they have
the concerts.

Then CDs.

I would say music but I needed
to keep my alliterations.

They have
a leadership college.

Cinema, which would be
the movie and other media.

Then they have
their conferences.

From an organizational
and marketing

and communication standpoint,
brilliant.

You know, listen to my music
on a Sunday.

Come to our church.

You like the church,
come to our conference.

You like the church,
come to our conference.

And they definitely feed
on each other.

[Brian] This is a conference.

So conference
is a conference,

but I've always
felt like it was...

It's a movement.

So I went
to the Hillsong conference

in Sydney, Australia.

And, you know,
that ticket was 500 bucks.

And then I bought
a bunch of stuff, you know?

So I probably spent
$1,000 plus tithing.

Yeah, people have
just been so willing
to just keep on giving.

You can go
and see Hillsong United
in a stadium tour.

You can go
and see Hillsong United
in a stadium tour.

It's the same arena
that Taylor Swift plays
when she comes to town, right?

It's a huge experience,
and it's a high
production value,

and ticket sales
are really high

and you can make
a lot of money there.

[Craig] It's a
money-making machine.

It has one purpose,
to get hold of as much
as your money as they can.

[Kelsey] Hillsong
consistently says,

"We're not a business,
we're a church."

But they behave exactly like
a big Fortune 500 company.

In terms
of the business model,

it's treating people
as consumers.

It's like a sales funnel,

where you want to get
the most amount of people

in the doors
at the top of the funnel,

'cause inevitably that'll lead
to more conversions

or more donations,
however you measure success
within your church.

Hillsong is much more
about selling you things.

They sell you CDs,
obviously, first and foremost.

They sell you CDs,
obviously, first and foremost.

They sell you
self-help courses.

They sell you books.

They sell you inspiration
to live in this world,

and they're obviously
very good at it.

Brian realized that
it's all about the products
that you're creating,

and it's all about the brand.

He's a spiritual entrepreneur.

He's, you know,
effectively the CEO
of a spiritual company.

The rub is,
is it okay for us to use...

The rub is,
is it okay for us to use...

God as a way to profit?

I don't have the answer,

but we're not supposed
to make consumers,

we're supposed
to make disciples.

[cheering]

[soft music playing]

Brian Houston had his sights
on expanding globally.

By the end of the 2000s,

By the end of the 2000s,

they really wanted to get
into the US market.

So by 2010,
they made that move.

[Brian] We are
a visionary church
and I love it.

And many people here,
you love it.

But not everybody loves it.

Your dream is gonna threaten
some people.

And I really
genuinely believe

the Holy Spirit
put it in my heart

that the day would come
when he would give me

and give us, Hillsong Church,
influence in America.

And I just couldn't see
how that could happen.

And I just couldn't see
how that could happen.

I felt like a speck.

This is a country
of over 300 million people.

But I've learned
to trust God.

[female reporter]
One wildly popular
megachurch from Australia

is making its mark
here in the United States.

[upbeat music playing]

[Hannah] In New York,
you had, you know,
the backdrop of the city

and you were also able
to rent big venues
and have the services there.

and you were also able
to rent big venues
and have the services there.

Hillsong's main venue
in New York City
as a concert venue

in Manhattan, Irving Plaza.

My name is Janice Lagata.

I was a member of Hillsong NYC
for seven years, I think.

And this is where
we first had church.

On Saturday night,
there'd be a concert.

So on Sunday morning,
it was just basically
coming in early,

turning this bar,
this nightclub into a church.

There would be a long line
going that way,

at least,
till the end of the block
and usually wrapping around.

And so having
that kind of line there

and, you know,
at a venue like this,

it looks like
it's something cool.

It's New York
and everybody wants to be

a part of whatever
is going on.

So a lot of people...

I mean,
just the curiosity, yeah.

It definitely worked.

You know,
it's very interesting

when people talk about,
you know,

planting a church
in the middle
of New York City.

planting a church
in the middle
of New York City.

Literally, a very small
Christian population.

So why?

Well, there may not be
many Christians,

but there's certainly
plenty of sinners.

[upbeat music playing]

[sirens wailing]

They find people
who are looking for answers,

looking for...
Having personal struggles

and sought those people out
and recruited them.

So what happens is,
to the non-Christian

or the fringe Christian,
if you will,

or the fringe Christian,
if you will,

the non-believer
who gets dragged to church

by his or her friend
to listen to this music

and then this wonderful
motivational speech,

they're like,
"Oh, this is Christianity.
This is easy.

This is...

You know,
this is cool church,

where we all gather together
as a community

to where you'll have to deal
with your sin

because no one
really ask about it."

That sounds good
to young people.

[woman] Hillsong have
good worship music.

I think it's really
approachable.

Like it's not
very in your face,
like hymns and songs.

Like it's very easy
to get into.

I used to go to Hillsong.
I went to Hillsong
for about a year.

And it was like...

I wasn't
that connected spiritually,

but I sort of went into it,
like, "Okay, it's like
a really dope TED Talk,"

and I would cry
every single time,

but it was a really
life-changing experience.

I actually used to go
to some of their events
when I was younger

I actually used to go
to some of their events
when I was younger

and going through
my life crisis.

It's very emotional,
I feel like,

for a lot of people,
and that really like...

Even if you're just kind of
there and unsure of things...

Which I was young.

I was looking for, you know,
community and stuff like that.

It can be really like
addicting in the best sense
of the word.

[Brando] Hillsong at the time
that they were starting
the New York plant,

I knew Hillsong itself
was like anti-homosexual,

I knew Hillsong itself
was like anti-homosexual,

the no sex before marriage,
all those things.

I knew that they were
that still,

but it was always
about purpose.

It was always about
trying to fulfill your dreams

and getting people
of my age group,

which was early 20s,
early mid-20s,

to serve one another,
serve your community.

That right there was exactly
what I needed

for social interaction
was to be at a church,

a megachurch,
that's full of people

and getting connected
that way.

and getting connected
that way.

Another thing that Hillsong
has done really well

is what
I call nightclub rules.

They're very good
at understanding

that to get young men
into a church,

it's very handy to have
a lot of young women.

They're very good in saying,
"Hey, this is church
done our way.

This is different to what your
grandmother's church is.

You know,
if you don't like it,
that's cool,

but just come along
and enjoy yourself."

And that really worked out.

[Ben] It goes back
to demographics.
It goes back to marketing.

[Ben] It goes back
to demographics.
It goes back to marketing.

It goes back
to a well-thought-out
business plan.

The people
that the system benefits
really, really get rewarded.

You know,
if you're a charismatic
and outgoing person who's...

You know, who can really bring
the crowds in

and get the money
out of people.

You're gonna be
very successful in Hillsong,

and that's what happened
in the case with Carl Lentz.

We're pretty confident
you've never met a pastor
like Carl Lentz.

We're pretty confident
you've never met a pastor
like Carl Lentz.

GMA cover story, Carl Lentz.

-[reporter 1] Carl Lentz.
-[reporter 2] Carl Lentz.

-Can I get an amen?
-Amen.

-Please welcome...
-[woman] Pastor Carl Lentz.

[cheers and applause]

My name is Carl Lentz.

I pastor Hillsong
New York City.

I'm from Virginia.
Not everybody
affiliated with us,

you know,
Hillsong, is Australian.

[Elle] Carl Lentz
came out from America

and trained
at Hillsong College
when he was younger.

Brian Houston had his sights
on global expansion
for 30 years now.

And I think
when he saw Carl Lentz,

he realized
he'd hit the jackpot.

Carl does have this X factor.

Carl does have this X factor.

I have gum
'cause I break rules.

I'm not supposed to have gum
but I do it anyway.

[Ben] He's in shape.
He's attractive.

I was showing my friend
a photo of Carl

when I first started
reporting on Hillsong

and she thought he was
from the Jersey Shore.

I mean, he's clearly a man
who cares a lot about his body

and his presentation
and his appearance.

He dresses well.

He was always about
the tattoos,
the trendy stubble, jeans,

leather jacket,
that sort of thing,

leather jacket,
that sort of thing,

and it shows a different way
of doing things

and it makes you feel that
your belief system is valid
in the modern world.

But this is the way
you dress normally and--

No, I normally have
a collar and robe.

-You do? Uh-huh.
-No, I'm kidding.

-This is it.
-[laughter]

He smiled a lot.
It was very, you know, smooth.

[Craig] He was the face,
very good-looking guy.

You know, he was
a very, very charming guy.

Had beautiful wife,
beautiful children.

It was just like,
wow, this...

You know, this guy is...
He's really something.

No, I'm not the same.
I don't think the same.

No, I'm not the same.
I don't think the same.

I don't talk the same.
And I don't know

if greatness is in my future,
but I do know

that I feel God's hand
on my life

and I'm trying to find ways
to tell people about it.

Carl is a very, very
charismatic person on stage.

I mean, did you all
watch the royal wedding,

a couple of months back?
Anybody?

I didn't either because we,

in America, you know,
we have one king.

His name is Jesus.
Carl, get over it.

Sometimes it's like you're
acting a fool a little bit,
but it's totally fine.

Like it makes you feel
more comfortable

when someone
is being goofy on stage

or cool or suave
or whatever it is.

He had a way
of like connecting

and making people
in the audience feel at ease.

He brought a very fresh,
charismatic, fiery energy.

I can actually embrace
the teachings of Jesus.

I can embrace his grace.
Where are you sitting at?

Are you hand shaking yourself
in your sleeping roll?

Carl clearly changed the way

that many of us saw
how church could be done.

[female reporter]
And some New Yorkers
can't seem to get enough

[female reporter]
And some New Yorkers
can't seem to get enough

of their unlikely pastor.

Carl Lentz, I mean,
he's drawing people in
to Hillsong New York.

You should see that line
on a Sunday morning.

So Hillsong East Coast
YouTube.
Subscribe if you haven't yet.

But let's face it,

they're not coming there
for sound doctrine.

They're not coming there
to be fed the Word.

They're coming there
to see the cool Carl Lentz.

Ain't it amazing
what God has done?

And I have a feeling
that the best is yet to come.

And I have a feeling
that the best is yet to come.

[woman] I don't like to say
like celebrity pastors,

but I do feel like there is
that kind of celebrity pastor

environment that
we're living in right now.

But I found out about Carl

and knew that I wanted
to attend this church
when I came to go to NYU.

That guy was iconic.
It was the glasses.

[laughs] Like he just
was like really...

He was really confident,
but you can tell that

it was coming from like
a super authentic place.

Like he was someone
that was genuine and he...

He'd been through [bleep]
but he had confidence
and he could get you engaged.

He'd been through [bleep]
but he had confidence
and he could get you engaged.

I mean, personally, yeah,
it was cool
when other pastors came,

but when it was Carl,
I was like...

"I'm glad I came
to the 7:00 p.m.," you know?

A few years ago,
I started an Instagram account

showing megachurch pastors
wearing expensive sneakers.

I noticed that there were
a whole slew of pastors

and worship leaders
that were wearing

and worship leaders
that were wearing

the most expensive
streetwear out there,

Supreme, Off-White,
Jordan Collabs,

Gucci, Louis Vuitton,
all these incredibly
expensive brands.

And I called it
preachersnsneakers.

It was not meant
to do anything

other than just to
make your friends laugh
for a second and move on.

And then in four weeks,
I had 100,000 followers.

So I'm just
in the middle of this,
watching this account grow,

not knowing
what I stepped into,
but knowing that there was

something important happening
because people
were freaking out.

something important happening
because people
were freaking out.

I think that everybody
just had this

thought in their mind, like,
"Hey, it seems like

these guys are getting rich
off of the gospel,"

or, "It seems like these guys

are just building
their own brand

while also asking
for donations,"

or, "Like it seems like
these guys are

making serious cheddar
off of a role

that is funded
by sacrificial donations

of people that are trying
to further the kingdom."

of people that are trying
to further the kingdom."

And so the sneakers
were just the way into that.

My first post
about Carl Lentz

was a picture
from his Instagram

where he's wearing some
Nike Air Fear of God sneakers,

and the shoes, at the time,
were reselling for like $800.

And then I posted
another picture of him

wearing a Supreme
x Louis Vuitton hoodie.

And what do you do in this
conference, hanging out?

Yeah, we've been hanging.

Yeah, we've been hanging.

Wearing Supreme sweaters.

-Just wearing sweaters.
-Just living the dream.

-You've been living the dream,
honestly, right?
-We have been.

That hoodie, at the time,

I think was
on the resale market

for like $10,000 or $15,000.

The prices were insane.

I'm a big fan of my church.

And even though it's got
like 10,000 members,

they're transparent
about their money.

And I think that should be
the minimum expectation

of a church that's bringing in
$100 million a year.

of a church that's bringing in
$100 million a year.

I'm pointing out the standard
and saying,

"Collectively,
are we all okay with this?

As Christians specifically,
are we..."

Maybe this is the best way
to do church.

Like maybe this
is the best way
to treat our pastors,

by showering them with gifts
and private jets

and courtside seats
and all that kind of stuff.

But have you ever...
questioned if it actually is
the best way?

And people would
get mad at me for that.

And people would
get mad at me for that.

"So I'm sure
that all the money

that you're profiting
from assassinating pastors

and Christian leaders
is all being tithed to God,
huh, Ben?

I'm sure that God
isn't watching

or keeping record of your
angelic Lucifer-like actions
and healing words."

There was one guy,
he wanted to fight me

over the fact that I had
posted about Brian Houston

over the fact that I had
posted about Brian Houston

wearing a pair
of $500 Gucci sneaks

on his own TV show.

I think it was a good picture
about the loyalty

that some of the people
that go to Hillsong

displayed to the team
or to the people
that were at the top.

Carl reached out to me
through a mutual friend.

He basically indicated like,
"Hey, Carl will be open
to talking with you."

I ran this account anonymously
for two years.

I ran this account anonymously
for two years.

Most people
didn't know who I was.

Every news agency
is calling me,
trying to figure out who I am.

The New York Times
is saying like,

"Hey, you know, we're
the newspaper of records.

This would be a good time
for you to reveal
your identity,"

and I passed.

The Today show asked me
to come on and I passed.

But I'll never forget this
when Carl and I
got on the phone,

the first thing
that he said to me was like,

"So who am I talking with,
man?"

I mean,
let's level with each other."

I just said, "My name is Ben."

And so he got my name.

I somehow trusted him

I somehow trusted him

from the first moment we spoke
and I think that's...

I guess,
that's just like a testament
to how good he is with people.

So we had a real conversation
on the phone.

He texted me a few times.

He kind of like
went back and forth

between like, "Hey, I disagree
with what you're doing.

Basically,
like it's an unfair spotlight
to put on people,"

and I thought that was fair,

but at the same time,
he leveled with me.

but at the same time,
he leveled with me.

He was like, "Hey, I get it.
I get the question.

I get, you know,
why people are upset.
I've been asked this before.

Like I've been asked
worst things.
That kind of thing.

Now, it's like anything,

when you humanize somebody,
it makes it a little harder

to treat them the same way
as you were before online.

As a guy that feels things,
like I...

That made me more
conflicted about it.

[mellow music playing]

In the early days,
being a stage manager,

In the early days,
being a stage manager,

I was one of the people
he just saw all the time.

So we just kind of clicked
and... I don't know.

There's something about
when he shook my hand.

The way he looks at you,
I was like, "Oh, okay.

Like I'd follow this guy
anywhere."

Like he just seems so,
so genuine.

There are just some people
who just have that thing

where they can just connect
with people really well,
and he's got that.

I think people
can get into preaching
for the right reasons

I think people
can get into preaching
for the right reasons

and with the best
of intentions.

But getting the fame
and getting the attention,

as a species, like we are not
good with power.

You can keep your new normal.

I'm going after
supernatural revival.

I'm not gonna stop my own
growth until I get there.

Like power corrupts.

I will not slow down.

[upbeat music playing]

[Tanya] Carl Lentz
was a very young man

when he studied
at Bible college.

I believe he was 21 years old.

You know, he was very quickly
brought into this system

because Brian Houston
can profile people so well

and can tell, you know,
who's gonna play the game
and who's gonna resist it.

Carl was able to break
into these fears

Carl was able to break
into these fears

that would have never
welcomed Brian Houston

or any other '90s preacher.

Brian Houston
saw that charisma

and just chose
that path for him.

Forget about
going after the loss.

We got trouble
loving the fact.

Brian took a liking
to him straight away.

He could see his potential.

Brian was like
salivating over him
in the early interviews.

Well, he hit the jackpot

for someone
with so much charisma

and so much appeal, who was
willing to work so hard

and so much appeal, who was
willing to work so hard

and putting the hours in,
you know,

really sacrifice his life
and become somebody else
for Hillsong.

Early on, I knew there
was this guy who was,

you know, a charismatic leader
of this church.

I don't think I would have
been able to put a name to him

until his very oddly
close relationship
with Justin Bieber.

-That's why we are okay.
-I just wanna
love people more.

I just wanna love Carl more.

I just wanna love Carl more.

You're doing a good job
with that.

-I'm so--
-You're the man.

So for a few years,
Justin Bieber

was very visibly in the news
for having some like
kind of TMZ-type moments.

All right. The first case
this afternoon
is Justin Bieber.

What'd you say? [bleep]

Get the [bleep] out of here.

So his career was starting
to be defined by those antics.

And Carl tried to get him
to work on himself,

work on his faith,
that kind of thing.

work on his faith,
that kind of thing.

My faith grows every day.

Carl ended up
famously baptizing him

and Tyson Chandler,
who's an NBA player,
in his bathtub.

It was awesome.
It was a cool...

It's a cool memory
for all of us.

[Ben] If you're hanging out
with Bieber,

all mainstream media
is gonna pay attention.

Like who is this ripped dude
that Bieber is hanging out
with on the beach?

He mainstreamed
the church even more.

It wasn't just
this Australian startup

that's popular
for its music anymore.

It was Justin Bieber's church.

They got write-ups
in GQ magazine,

They got write-ups
in GQ magazine,

in music magazines,

in all sorts
of popular press.

I mean, getting that
crossover is huge.

That would have, you know,
increased the numbers,

increased their
social media followers,

all the things
that ultimately they want

to transform society
into their vision.

[dramatic music playing]

Celebrities love Hillsong.

Selena Gomez
used to be a congregant.

-You went to Hillsong?
-Yes.

Our friend Carl Lentz,
who we love--

-Yes. We loved him.
-I was just texting him.

-Yes.
-[Hannah] Kevin Durant.

[Brando] The Jackman family,

Bono, Lenny Kravitz.

These are the people
that I've run into at Irving.

[Ben] Kendall Jenner
was pretty involved.

Carl's church
was that famous group.

All the famous people.
That was really his church.

There's just this
obvious culture at Hillsong

of celebrity worship.

of celebrity worship.

[Craig] Again,
that's the marketing ploy.

When that word gets around,
it's kind of like
a restaurant.

"Oh, you know... you know,

somebody famous
came in last night."

Then you'll see... Now with
social media especially,

you'll see more people
in that restaurant

the next night
than you've ever seen before

because a celebrity
was there the night before.

Hillsong is the same way.
"Oh, I might see
Justin Bieber."

I did know that Justin Bieber
goes to a Hillsong Church.
It's exciting.

It's like nice
to see celebrities

that go to a church
that I also attend.

that go to a church
that I also attend.

[Hannah] Hillsong was catering
to the celebrities
very consciously

and I think the celebrities
were receptive.

Hillsong comes along
and offers this place

where you can be religious
but not stuffy.

There's this idea of like,
you know, "Oh,
you've got a sex tape?

Cool. You love Jesus?

Even better."
Like, you know, there...

There's this malleable thing
about Hillsong.

On the other side,
you've got Hillsong

which is looking for a way
to be in the media.

which is looking for a way
to be in the media.

Celebrity does that
reliably every time, right?

It's been called
the Church of the Stars
for its celebrity following.

The goal of our church
is from the nameless
to the famous.

Our church should have
celebrities, we believe,

'cause we're trying
to reach everybody.

That's one of our goals.

Was it a lucky coincidence
that Bieber got involved
with Hillsong?

I'm gonna have to be
a bit of a cynic,

given that I feel very sure

that it was part
of the Hillsong strategy
to attract celebrities

that it was part
of the Hillsong strategy
to attract celebrities

and to make them
sort of front and center
of their branding.

[Tanya]
I mean, I think it benefited
both of them, didn't it?

Bieber was like, you know,

leaving monkeys behind
in other countries

and pissing in bucket...
Mop buckets and stuff.

And, you know,
the bad boy thing

for Justin Bieber
was wearing thin.

He needed to look like he'd
had this great time of faith

and, well,
he's turning over a new leaf.

So they really worked out
well for each other
at exactly the right moment.

So they really worked out
well for each other
at exactly the right moment.

Is it possible
they just ran into each other

on the same day?
Yes. I'm not...

I think it's far more likely
that Carl Lentz

saw an opportunity
in Justin Bieber and took it.

When people have
the aura of celebrity
reflected on them,

you're suddenly very
attractive to lots of women.

[Hannah]
Yeah, he looks like a hunk.

There's photos of him walking
around with Justin Bieber
where Justin Bieber looks bad.

To me, that is inherently
duplicitous or hypocritical,

To me, that is inherently
duplicitous or hypocritical,

whether it's the desire
to be close to fame

or other very much
earthly desires.

Mmm-hmm.

[producer speaking]

-[Joe] There's the preacher.
-[man] Yeah.

[Joe] Whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa.

What's going on
with his [bleep] shorts?

No! Any guy
who's showing [bleep] groove,

No! Any guy
who's showing [bleep] groove,

you're doing that 'cause
you're trying to get laid.

Jesus does not want you
dressing like that.

The motivation seems
to have been to use celebrity,

use glamor to amass
a following,

to amass power, to amass fame.

Someone like Carl Lentz,
who has these goals in mind

and saw an opportunity
to bring Bieber onboard,

and saw an opportunity
to bring Bieber onboard,

this may be a jump
that's unfair to Carl Lentz,

but it's absolutely
the scientology strategy.

If you wanna raise
your profile

and get eyes on you,
you get a celebrity and,

you know, that's sort of,
you know, 101 stuff.

[Ben] I mean, this guy
is seemingly friends
with all of these people.

And so it's impressive that
he was able to build
a network like that.

And so it's impressive that
he was able to build
a network like that.

And it's
an influential network.

It's like this person
was able to somehow
influence his way

into some of the most
powerful circles ever

as a guy that
represents the gospel,
teaches the gospel.

But then at the same time,
for a lot of people,

it looks like
it was just a tool

to build his own
personal network.

[dramatic music playing]

My name is Dale Smith
and I did security
for Hillsong.

I grew up Southern Baptist.

I've been to several churches,
so that's what I expected.

[organ music playing]

I do recall
the very first day,
I looked at my partner.

I'm like, "Are we sure
this is a church?"

Your venue in New York

has thousands, not hundreds,
like thousands, weekly.

You're with rock stars.

You're with athletes.

And you have VIPs coming in
who get special treatment.

[man] Stars and athletes
and stuff like that.

And you did see...
And there was sort of

like a tiered system
when you were there.

Like, you know,
they sat like in the front.

It was sort of like being in
a, you know, Jewish synagogue.

It's like if you pay,
you sat in the front

and, you know,
if you didn't pay,
you sat in the back.

The reserved seating
just got progressively

more and more
and just more intense.

When I first started serving,
I accidentally sat a visitor

that was coming in
to participate in church
in the VIP section.

that was coming in
to participate in church
in the VIP section.

And one of the folks
that was a leader

pulled me off to the corner
and scolds me for it

and told me that we don't put
normal people
in the VIP section.

I would always wonder
where would Jesus sit
if he was here?

Would he be allowed
in the green room
and the VIP seats?

You know, it's just...
What are we doing here?

[man] Thank you guys
for waiting.

We didn't expect
to be at capacity already.

That is how
Christianity is then.

We're all looking
to figure out
what caste we're in.

It's like if you have this
idea of VIP, this needs...

It's like if you have this
idea of VIP, this needs...

These Christians need
to have special treatment.

It's tiered.

I mean, it's classes.

They have banners
that say welcome home

and you belong,
come as you are,

but there's terms
and conditions to my welcome.

Doesn't feel like a church.
It feels like a business
or a concert.

And, particularly,
when Pastor Carl came down.

[dramatic music playing]

So on a day when Pastor Carl
will come down from New York

and preach at the service,
come in using a limo.

and preach at the service,
come in using a limo.

Excitement everywhere.
Much like the president's
coming to town.

-[woman] Hi.
Welcome to the palace.
-[Carl] Good to be here.

All the volunteers
were on high alert.
High alert.

Typically, his advance man
security would come.

We'd walk around the venue,

give them
the lay of the land.

Once he hit that stage,
pure rock star.

I pray that in your life
you are not missing
a move of God.

He will bless your life,
he will magnify your voice,

He will bless your life,
he will magnify your voice,

and He will give you ground
you have not asked.

The second he was off,
he's right into the car
and off to the next venue.

You know, as security,
you don't draw judgments.

I'm there to protect
the venue and everybody.

But I am not familiar
with that type of relationship

between a preacher
and the congregation.

Any church
I've been involved with,

I can walk in
my pastor's office.

Their door is certainly open,
especially after a sermon,

Their door is certainly open,
especially after a sermon,

and that just didn't happen
when Pastor Carl was there.

[woman] Is Carl the next
Brian Houston,
the next Joel Osteen?

Could well be.
Carl, obviously, you know,

he's a magnetic,
attractive guy.

I mean, his tattoos
are a problem but--

You don't like the tattoos?

Uh, they're okay.
They're okay.

Yeah. Great.

Thanks, Bobby,
for bringing that up.

It was like...
There was a separation.

It was like you didn't think
of Hillsong Church
and Brian Houston anymore.

It was like you didn't think
of Hillsong Church
and Brian Houston anymore.

You thought of Hillsong Church
and Carl Lentz.

The Hillsong Band
is what got him here.

But then Carl became bigger
than what Hillsong was.

[beeping]

Carl made himself
untouchable.

There have been
pastors that have...

begun to outshine the boss.

And I think
that's what happened
in the case with Carl Lentz.

It was always like,
"Be careful, man."

It was always like,
"Be careful, man."

Because the only thing
everyone likes more than

a rising star
is a falling star, right?

Eventually, the stardom's
gonna catch up with you.

[Craig] Carl Lentz,
I mean, think about it.

He's one of the top
revenue streams
in the organization.

If you got any reason
to be grateful,

why don't you give Jesus
a shout of praise,

you just stir it up
a little bit tonight.

His franchise location
is pulling down
probably more than

any other franchise location
in the world.

Carl Lentz is the superstar.

This is the kingdom

that Carl Lentz
wants to be a part of.

that Carl Lentz
wants to be a part of.

Wherever Jesus went,
there were absolute
throngs of people

trying to get to him.

He craved that
sort of notoriety,
that sort of celebrity.

Every university felt it.
Every club felt it.
Every prison felt it.

Every place of people
will love it.

I think that narcissism
and control

does not have a place
in a pastor position.

He should probably
be a comedian,

He should probably
be a comedian,

maybe even a public speaker.

But the pastor
is supposed to serve.

A pastor
is supposed to protect.

A pastor is supposed to love.

A pastor is not
seeking his own attention

and his own titles and...

You name it.

Judging from
the godlike behavior

that I witnessed,

100% percent, I do.

Carl is definitely
a narcissist.

Carl is definitely
a narcissist.

I think you have to be
a narcissist

to succeed
with any megachurch.

The Lord is my shepherd
and I lack nothing.

He is so full of himself
with arrogance.

And that's a big problem,
you know,

because he's the founder

of this very dangerous,
charismatic movement

that young people
are really attracted to.

The worst culture gets,

the better it is for us,

because people are...

They're not buying
what culture is selling

They're not buying
what culture is selling

like they used to.

People are looking
for real answers.

[Brando]
They bring you in with culture

and so getting it in
with music

and our age group,
our clothes,

I mean,
everyone started dressing

the exact same way
as Carl Lentz.

It is a very great word.

Idolizing is the perfect word

because Carl Lentz
became a cult leader

to a bunch of people like me

that ended up
trying to follow

into this thing of,

into this thing of,

"I want to be big
and powerful and cool

and have people wanna be
on fire for something

and lead people."

Yes. Oh, yeah.

A cult is when I tell you
what to think

and if you think
any different,

-you're gone.
-Hmm.

That's a cult.

We preach the opposite.

Actually, you should go home
and question what I preach.

You should look it up
in your own Bible.

Is creating a brand
or an idol out of a pastor

or preacher problematic?

I think so.

And if the church's
whole thing

is based on
that one guy or girl,

one really impressive,

attractive, entertaining,
talented person

that is doing great

but is one misstep away

but is one misstep away

from literally imploding
the entire thing,

your ministry is now eroded.

It's built on sand
in a lot of ways.

Hillsong
has tremendous leaders

in so many different churches.

Of course that's led
to a lot of celebrity.

But at the core of it,
at the heart of it,

is a church that I believe

is genuinely a work of God.

It helps people
to believe that

It helps people
to believe that

there is a God who loves them
and cares for them

and has a plan
for their lives.

But fame, popularity,

we've always had
to deal with that

as pastors become well-known,

you know, the old cliche is

you have to watch out
for the girls,

the gold, and the glory.

[Carl]
Lord, keep my heart pure.

Keep my thoughts pure.

Any areas of my life
that's stuck,

Any areas of my life
that's stuck,

that's creeped in, Lord,

please help me keep
these hands clean.

♪ You can run on
For a long time ♪

♪ Run on for a long time ♪

♪ Sooner or later
God will cut you down ♪

♪ Sooner or later
God will cut you down ♪

[Ranin] Carl has a lot
of blood on his hands,

you know,
let's put it that way,

that he needs to clean.

that he needs to clean.

[Sammy] We are at our
old stomping grounds,

Frank W. Cox High School.

And this is where Carl Lentz
went to high school.

That's where I went
to high school,

a few years apart.

-Speaking of the devil--
-[Sammy] Yeah.

[Jaclyn] I mean,
right now, Wave Church.

[Jaclyn] I mean,
right now, Wave Church.

[Sammy] Yes.

Where it all began.

I'm Jaclyn,

and I went to Wave Church
for 17 years,

so from the time
I was 17 till 34.

I'm Sammy.

I attended Wave Church
for about eight years

and interned under Carl Lentz,

who was the pastor
of the Young Adults Ministry

who was the pastor
of the Young Adults Ministry

before Hillsong.

[Jaclyn] My kids still wave
to the church when we go by.

-[Sammy] Really?
-[Jaclyn] Yeah.

How are they about that?

They didn't understand, like,

why we left their friends,
you know?

And that was
the hardest part for us too,

was just leaving behind
friendships.

I basically just
had to explain like,

"Well, you know,
Mommy didn't understand

that the way I was being led

was not the way
God wanted us to be led."

Wave Church is a
non-denominational church

in Virginia Beach.

Anything that's not faith
is sin.

And with that--

Steve Kelly is the senior
pastor at Wave Church.

So the Bible said, if you're
gonna come to the God,

you're gonna come believing
that He is.

Steve Kelly
is an Australian citizen,

works at Hillsong Church
for about a decade

and then moved
to Virginia Beach

and then moved
to Virginia Beach

to pastor this church.

That was in 2001.

I loved the people there.

I thought that
it was very deep.

You know, I thought it was...

it was not super surface-y.

And I left every week
feeling,

like, hopeful.

You can have hope
without faith,

but you cannot have faith
without hope.

but you cannot have faith
without hope.

Eventually,
this couple was introduced

and it was Carl Lentz
and his beautiful wife Laura.

We went to the same
high school.

He was three years older
than me

and he knew my older sister.

So I only knew a little bit
about him from my friends.

But he did have a reputation.

When I first met him at Wave,

he was like, "You have
a sister, an older sister?"

And I was like, "Yeah."

And he was like,
"Is she really pretty?"

And he was like,
"Is she really pretty?"

And I was like,
"Yeah, she's pretty."

And he was like, "Yeah.
I think I remember her."

That kind of rubbed me
strangely.

Like that's how you...
that's how you know me now.

You know, I had only heard
about his history,

but he was a spectacular
basketball player

from what I hear.

And he went to Cox
and NC State after that.

And his own words were,
he was a player.

He used to tell us that

he was a little open
with his past

and, you know,
he let us know that

he had a life before Laura.

he had a life before Laura.

But he did end up at Hillsong
Bible College in Australia

and that's where
he met Laura.

When you go
to Hillsong College,

it's because you probably
wanna be a pastor.

He was definitely valuable.

More young adults started
to be attracted

to his presence at the church.

to his presence at the church.

When they came, it was like
a shiny new penny.

You know,
they were both attractive.

Their relationship
was attractive,

and they became
our young adults pastors.

[crowd cheering]

How are you doing?
Don't sit down.

You're crazy.
We just started.

Everything changed after that.

When Carl came,
it was definitely

a different atmosphere,
culture, community.

a different atmosphere,
culture, community.

The pastoral role definitely

was a completely
different vibe.

What you're doing tonight
is saying,

"Jesus, I'm walking out
of what was

into what is about to be."

I started to definitely notice

a little bit of control.

My dad told me something
pretty brilliant,

you can look it up.
It's true now.

I think over 90%
of a young woman's identity

comes from the words
of her father.

And my dad said, "You got
to get a hold of your girl

And my dad said, "You got
to get a hold of your girl

before everybody else.

You got to tell her
who she is."

The previous pastor was...

way more gentle
and compassionate

and understanding around
relationship dynamics.

So I did notice
there was a major contrast.

There was a lot
of dating rules.

There was a lot
of dating rules.

You know,
being in a relationship,

there was a whole lot
of restrictions around it.

I'll give you a few.

I think it was,
"You date for a whole year

before you have
your first kiss

and then you don't say
I love you until you propose."

[Sammy] He smiled a lot.

It was very,
you know, smooth.

He was easy to get along to

as long as you did
what you were told.

I do remember feeling like
we were put in our place.

And, you know, this is...

And, you know, this is...

this is what you do
if you serve as a woman.

These are the ways you behave

and this is the way you dress.

It did feel very strict.

There's no little bit of sex
and a little bit of purity.

We gotta really live
what we believe in.

I did feel like in general,

purity just came up a lot
in preaching by Carl.

And yeah, it was just
basically just like,

"You basically are gonna have
us in your business, lady."

You can't have
a little bit of you,

You can't have
a little bit of you,

a little bit of me
and a little bit of Jesus.

This is not a cocktail.

But now, again,
as an older adult...

I hate to say
I'm an older adult, but I do.

I look at it
and I'm like, "Wow.

If he was so concerned
with these things,

like, there must be
an underlying root."

And I know it's kind of
random to talk about purity.

Normally, we leave this
to the high schoolers.

Guess what? It still matters
when you run in churches.

[Doreen]
I was at Wave for a few years

before Carl left.

The impression
I always have of him,

I remember I would go
to leaders' meetings

and he would hammer
in our heads,

and he would hammer
in our heads,

"Do not have sex
before marriage."

He was aggressive about it.

Lord, keep my heart pure.

Keep my thoughts pure.

Any areas of my life
that's stuck,

that's creeped in, Lord,

please help me keep
these hands clean.

[Doreen]
All I could think was,

"Man, this guy probably had
a lot of sex before marriage."

I think it's this concept,

you know, the psychological
phenomena of therapists

who have all these issues

but instead of getting help
for their issues,

but instead of getting help
for their issues,

they're like,
"Hey, let me tell other people

they need to get help."

Because when you're
so vehemently

trying to get a point across,

all you're doing
is not making your point.

All you're doing is like
pointing to yourself.

Hey, girl. Hi.

I appreciate you.

I'm glad I know you

and I just don't have
a lot of words

and I just don't have
a lot of words

or energy or anything.

I don't know which way
is up right now.

I can't sleep.
I'm struggling.

But if I'm within
10 miles of you,

I'll come and see you.

[Ranin] A lot of the time,
he will send me videos

speaking to the camera
because if he will text me,

I will not respond.

So for him to create emotions,

he will send a video
so I can see his face.

Yeah. So I hit you...

um...

can I get a moment?

It's a long video.

It is what it is.

It is what it is.

Appreciate you.

So I'll talk to you soon
for sure.

Bye.

[Ranin] It started in May.

It was a Friday.

I was at the park
by my house.

I remember he was leaning
on the bench, stretching.

He was just looking at me.

You kind of feel like,
you know,

when a man like looks at you
different,

watching you
and there's like this energy

that is hard to explain.

He keeps staring.

It was 6:00 almost

and the sun is about
to go down.

I was like, "Okay. I think
it's time for me to go."

And he start walking with me.

So we were, like,
we had a nice chat.

He said to me,
"You're from the Middle East.

The most beautiful women
come from the Middle East."

The most beautiful women
come from the Middle East."

And then we kept walking

and he asked me
a bunch of questions.

I was like, "We just met

like, you know,
you need to chill."

We walked towards at the end
of the... of the park

and I was like,
"Yeah, I'm gonna...

I'm gonna go this way,"

and he's like,
"Yeah, I'm gonna go that way."

And he grabbed his phone
and he said...

He asked me to write
my information,

but I wrote it on his note...
on his note section.

Um...

I felt really weird because

usually when guys ask me
for my number,

they don't put it
on their notes.

I said, "Can you send me
your last name

because I would, like,
to save you in the phone."

He said,
"Oh, you know...you know,

like, when people Google
people it's like...

It's not a good look.

It's better to get to know
the person

before you look them up."

I'm like, "That was the
weirdest answer I ever heard."

But I'm very picky

when it comes to who
I'm attracted to

and I know that
with this situation,

it was very different.

I did feel attracted to him.

And he said,
"I'll text you later.

If you're free we can...
we can have some tequila."

That's what he said.

And I was like,
"Okay. Sounds good."

So I walked home and I...

At this point, I had to, like,
look him up.

At this point, I had to, like,
look him up.

I was like, "Oh, my God.

I'm gonna find out
this person.

I mean, I'm not gonna
hang out with him tomorrow

if I don't know who he is.

So I went to... I went online

and I found this way
to, like, look up numbers

and that can give you
everything about this person.

And when it did come up,
and I was like,

"Oh, my God.
I've seen this guy before."

I've seen him
when I went to the church.

What do I want more?

Do I want this happy,
worldly, fleshly stuff

Do I want this happy,
worldly, fleshly stuff

or do I actually want more
of Jesus?

[Ranin]
When I was going through
a divorce,

my good friend took me there

because I was really depressed
and I was going through it.

Matthew Chapter Five.

Do we have anybody who's,
like, brand new to our church

to check this stuff out

and see that
it'll give you a way.

It was funny to me how, like,
I got to see this individual

or kind of know of him
years ago

and all of a sudden

he's in front of my face,
right?

He messaged me.

[phone beeps]

[Ranin] I said to him,
"Are you married?"

[Ranin] I said to him,
"Are you married?"

And he said, "Yes."
And I said, "For how long?"

He said, "For 17 years."

And, like,
at the end of the day,

we all end up falling
to a place

where we're attracted
to something,

and then,
you kind of play yourself

because, you know, you go...

You're walking into where
you shouldn't be walking.

When something is unreachable,
you want it more, right?

He end up coming to my house.

I told him,
"Listen, you know,
I'm not judging you,

but I wanted to tell you
that I have looked you up

and I know who you are."

I just wanted to know, like,

there is anything wrong
with your relationship?

Why are you here?

Like, why are you
in this position,

like, when you're sitting
in my house?

He was like, "I never have
done this before.

There's nothing wrong
in my relationship."

He's like,
"I know when I see someone

and like when I saw you,

like, you have everything
I want in a woman."

like, you have everything
I want in a woman."

For me it's like very odd.

I feel attracted
to this individual.

Obviously,
this is a danger zone,

but then also ask yourself,
why will be me,

the girl that saw him

when I was broken in 2013.

Then years after,
the same person,

you see him at the park

like what is the coincidence
that happens?

Because he keeps saying
a lot that

we're so similar me and him,

that we found each other
because we're both broken.

And there is sense in that
when he said it,

And there is sense in that
when he said it,

because
I'm a very big believer

that those coincidence
are made to happen,

like, I think
I did had a purpose here.

Something in me told me
like this is...

this is like such a huge
and strong connection.

We met on Friday, Saturday,

I saw him briefly at the park.

And then Sunday evening
when he came to my house.

That was the first time that
we actually got to, like...

We got to kiss.

Oh, hey, girl.

Oh, hey, girl.

Hi.

Hey, girl, I'm just flipping
through my Bible

and it's incomplete

because
I'm in the Book of Numbers

and yours isn't in there.

Hey, girl.

[Doreen]
Yes, a number of times.

I had a friend who Carl tried
to sleep with her.

It was a very, very
known thing about Carl.

I think people like him

are just very intuitive

are just very intuitive

of where they can go to prey,

P-R-E-Y.

My interactions with Carl

quickly became negative
by, like, 19.

Me and the guy
that I was dating,

we'd been dating a year
at least and we...

I don't wanna say
fell into sin

because we made a decision

to, you know,
have an intimate moment.

I mean, we both felt guilty
immediately after.

We were so young

and we really did love
the Lord.

and we really did love
the Lord.

We really did.

And we loved each other too.

At the end of a service,

there's usually an invitation

to ask Jesus to come into
your life for the first time

or to return back
to your faith

if you've left it.

There's an invitation
to come out of your seat

and come down to the front.

My boyfriend raised his hand

at the end of the service
for the altar call.

And I'm like, "Crap."

And I'm like, "Crap."

So I raised my hand
and we went forward together.

Then there's an invitation

to a room
that's a little quieter.

It was me and my boyfriend,
Carl Lentz.

No female was present
and Carl led the discussion.

So we shared that
we had slept together.

We were very forthcoming
about our sin.

It was literally one time

and Carl asked,
"Did you use protection?"

And I interrupted, "Yes."

You know, like, of course
we use protection, you know.

And his next response was,

"Huh, well then
it was premeditated."

There's nothing good
that is gonna come out

of that conversation
with Carl

when you're admitting
your fault,

but I kind of expected

a different response from him,

a different response from him,

to be honest.

I just went from

sharing something so personal
with you,

and now my answer,

you're using it to shame me
and condemn me.

It went from listening
to then,

"You are off the worship team
for six months and choir,

you are off your team,"
what he was doing.

"We do not think
you guys should date.

"We do not think
you guys should date.

You should not text,
call for at least six months."

And, yeah, I mean,
it still chokes me up

because we could have
walked out of that meeting

and said, "F this place."
[laughs]

Baby, let's go somewhere else.

We can find another church.

But no, we walked out
of that service

and we were broken up.

We were conditioned.

When you go to this church

and it's this prosperity,
success,

like this is
what we're chasing...

it doesn't seem controlling

to submit certain things.

So it's very easy,
is my point.

It's very easy.

It was very easy for me
to submit.

It was very easy for me
to submit.

[man] Can you give us
a timeline

of how long you and Carl
were together?

Five... It was five months.

So me and Carl were together
for like five months.

He kept coming to my house.

Then at some point,
he took off his necklace.

He was wearing
an eagle pendant,

and he gave me the pendant
and he started crying

and he said he feels

and he said he feels

something about him
not being vulnerable,

but being around me
make him feel vulnerable.

I mean, later on,
I realized it's bull [bleep]

people that went
to the church say

he cries all the time
on stage.

I remember sitting there
tears on my eyes.

I don't know why I'm so weepy.

I love people.

If you're wondering about
emotionally unstable,
absolutely.

-This is fake.
-[laughing]

It's all for show.

[Ranin] I got to know him

[Ranin] I got to know him

more than I think
anybody else got to know him.

And I think...

he was the main...

He was the character
of his own show

and then I was a...

I was just an add-on,
you know?

He always wanted to feel
like he's somebody.

You know,
I never have been part

of the Christian culture
like that.

I don't know what
he really does at the church.

All I know is that
his persona, his chaos,

All I know is that
his persona, his chaos,

brought chaos in to my life.

Those who live according
to the flesh

have their mind set
on what the flesh desires.

The mind governed by the flesh
is death,

but the mind governed by
the spirit is life in peace.

[Jaclyn]
With that whole purity thing,

when you mess up,

it's not like there's no hope

because then there's...

But there's marriage.

But there's marriage.

So marriage
is the new shiny penny.

After Carl had
the conversation with us,

there wasn't really a lot of
closure for me and that guy.

Fast forward
to my first marriage,

which was only a year later.

That same broken,
immature girl is now married.

I married after being
with him for three months

because we had sex
and we were...

we were basically
gonna be asked

we were basically
gonna be asked

to break up or whatever.

And so we ran off

and went to the courthouse
and got married.

It was either me
coming forward again with,

"I had sex again,"

or coming back with husband.

That relationship
was definitely,

you know, difficult

for a 21-year-old
and a 23-year-old to handle

and we were married
about seven or eight years.

And, you know,
that ended very hard.

And, you know, that was...
that was very difficult.

And, you know, that was...
that was very difficult.

♪ We are lost ♪

♪ Woo ♪

♪ Yeah ♪

♪ Hallelujah ♪

I'm 41, been married
for 16 years

and we were...
Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, 16 years.

It's incredible.

Marriage is not easy,
it's just awesome.

Marriage is not easy,
it's just awesome.

[Ranin]
Throughout the months that
we were seeing each other,

it got to the point
where I started to realize

he does things that
is always convenient for him.

He always gives a timeframe
when he can do things.

I fell into the...
A place where, like,

I will wanted to hang out,
you know, with him

and then he wouldn't be able
to do that.

And it's starting
to occur to me

that it's always
his way or no way.

It got to the point where
I will send him novels

of like, "Goodbye.

of like, "Goodbye.

I wish I never met you
on the park."

We used to argue a lot.

And when I started
to pull back and say,

"I don't want this anymore,
leave me alone,"

he wants to know
that if he's...

If you're walking away
from him,

he's not gonna
let you walk away.

He needs to be the first one.

We have like an outlandishly

complex relationship

and nothing
has ever been normal.

[Ranin]
The more you say no to him,

the more he kept coming back.

[Carl] Here's my dilemma,
I miss you.

I was thinking about you,

I was thinking about you,

wondering
if you're okay today.

And didn't know
if I should text

or if it's worse for me
to check, not check.

So you're starting
to understand this person

cannot lose a battle.

If it's okay
from time to time

for me to let you know
I'm thinking about you

and hope you're okay,
I would like to.

I'm genuinely
asking you what's...

What do you want me to do?

Because if it's easier
for you just to move on

and me not say,
"Hey, how are you

and me not say,
"Hey, how are you

or how was your day
or I think about you,"

and let you know,
I won't do that.

[Ranin] But then he said
something that triggered me.

He said, "You know,
at the end of the day,

I go to my family
and you go to nothing."

And I was like, "Wow,
that's a slap in the face."

I started to realize

there's things
that people say

that they feel
they have power over you.

It was the most toxic thing
I ever had to deal with.

It was the most toxic thing
I ever had to deal with.

It was really unhealthy.

It just brought a lot of pain
into my life, you know,

because I always said,

"If I can go back
and never meet Carl, I would."

It's not like something that
I wanted to happen in my life.

It just happened.

So I'll talk to you
soon for sure.

Might knock on your door.
You never know.

Bye.