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Hi, I'm Pete Docter.
I was the director of Inside Out.
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Hi, my name
is Ronnie del Carmen.
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I'm the co-director of this amazing movie
from the mind of Pete Docter.
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You like it.
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No, no, no.
It was a very collaborative effort,
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and that's actually what we're going
to talk to you about today.
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Ronnie and I are gonna talk about
three things on this commentary track.
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History, invisible story
and cinematography.
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These are all things that
are pretty much just not apparent at all
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when you're watching the movie.
The first is history.
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Now, I know from personal experience
that when you're watching a film,
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it can seem like
it just appeared fully formed.
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And that's not true, is it, Ronnie?
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No, it's not actually.
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When we start,
it's just Pete and myself across a table
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telling each other stories,
not knowing where to start.
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What do you do?
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What do you feel should be
in this movie is a question.
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Yeah. So,
we'll talk a little about
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where it came from and the making of it.
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We're also going to talk about
invisible story elements.
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Now, there's a lot of things that we,
as filmmakers,
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worked really hard on
for months, even years,
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only to have them basically invisible
as you watch the film.
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Now, don't feel bad. This is intended.
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It's kind of like a magician.
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If you watched him practice
for seven months,
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the trick would be given away, right?
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So, this is an intended thing,
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but we're going to lift the hood a little
bit and let you look at the engine.
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The third is cinematography.
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Now, of course, to students
of live-action filmmaking,
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all this sort of talk of camera lenses
and camera placement and movement,
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that's part of
your everyday conversation.
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But a lot of people don't know
how much we in animation
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pay attention to that stuff as well.
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So, Ronnie had
a major contribution in that.
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We're also going to drag in
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our director of photography, Patrick Lin,
to talk for a bit.
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So, those will be, in a nutshell,
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the things that we're going to
be mentioning today.
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As well as a couple other
little nuggets of goodness.
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So, the film begins with a scene
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which I was actually
very much opposed to.
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It was a concept
that was brought up several times,
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that we would see the birth of our kid
and the emotion.
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Well, I was there with you
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because we were actually
starting this movie
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from when Riley
was about seven years old.
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Yeah.
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We were having a good
time doing that. It seemed to work.
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And then there was a note that said like,
"Oh, you know..."
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"What if we find out
when Joy started her job?"
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And the reason
I was against it is just
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it's, I think, in danger of becoming
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a cliché for us here at Pixar.
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We've done a lot of films
where we show them young,
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to get the audience on board,
and then we jump ahead.
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And I always feel like,
"Man, just cut to the chase."
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"I don't need to know
that this person grew up in Detroit"
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"in order to understand them..."
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"If we do our job right and you
have a good actor and everything."
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So, I was very much against
this whole thing.
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And I was with you, man.
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And then Ronnie goes off
and he boards this thing.
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I was trying to prove
that maybe it couldn't work.
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But there's no way to say no
to something until you see it.
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And once we started exploring it,
it felt like,
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"You know, this is kind of charming."
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And I come in
with my arms folded, like,
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"Let's see it
so I can say no to it."
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And then I totally fall in love with it.
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It's also sort of
the birth of Headquarters,
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and you see this dark space
that, through light, is revealed.
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We use this a couple times in the film
as the lighting in a sort of...
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Almost like a Broadway musical
or an MGM musical
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where the lighting defines that space
and it just falls off into darkness
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until the light hits it and it grows out.
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So, it ended up being a really cool way
of introducing Joy, what she's all about.
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And, again, even here,
most babies when they're born,
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the first thing they do is cry.
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So, we were really playing with that too.
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It was great actually
to introduce our two characters first.
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- Yeah.
- And it is going to be about them.
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Such a complex idea,
that this was a way
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of reducing and just saying,
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"Okay, it's about this baby and Joy."
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And even by the fact
that she's not crying says something,
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that this kid is unique.
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She is a joyful kid
and she's one of those kids,
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and we all have examples of these,
of kids that are just happy all the time.
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The voiceover here was another
thing I was against.
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Shows you what I know.
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I was thinking, "Okay, this is
a cheap, kind of cheat."
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"It's too easy. Let's dramatize it."
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We got to introduce the audience
to all this stuff through action
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as opposed to somebody,
blah-blah, telling us.
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As it turned out, I think it works because,
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A, Amy makes it so fun to listen to.
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B, it's actually kind of
fun information to learn.
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It doesn't feel like
you're at school or something.
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You're having a good time
taking it all in.
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And, C, it just makes it like,
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"Here's the information
you need to know to enjoy this film."
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- Yes.
- It's over quick.
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I thought we could
talk about the concept.
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So, we got together.
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It was Ronnie and me
and Michael Arndt, the writer,
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and Jonas Rivera.
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And we spent a couple days
up at the ranch.
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- Remember this? Skywalker Ranch.
- Yes, I do.
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We were there actually
working on another movie,
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and Pete had this idea
he wanted to pitch us.
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Yeah, so the basic concept
that I had at that point was
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the idea of emotions as characters.
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I had a lead female emotion that I think
I called Optimism at that time.
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Mmm-hmm.
And we had Joy and Fear.
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And from the get-go, it just felt like
this is an ensemble comedy.
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So, it's going to be all about
the interplay of these different guys
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and the way they talk
to each other and stuff.
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I remember Ronnie saying,
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"You know, if this is going to be
a movie about emotions,"
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"with the guys who made Up,
it had better be emotional."
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- You remember that?
- Yeah.
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- Most of it was a threat to ourselves.
- Yes.
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But to talk
about actual emotions,
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that's kind of trying to
elevate the game even higher.
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- So, that was a challenge.
- But it was fun.
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And I think the whole film
allowed for this freedom.
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It was a made-up world.
It didn't actually exist.
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And yet, everybody's familiar
with it in some way. Right?
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Everybody's thought about,
"Where do dreams come from,"
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"and how do I store my memories?"
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I don't know, maybe obliquely anyway,
people have thought about that.
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Yeah. Actually
I looked at it from the other side
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because I tend to be more pessimistic.
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The freedom that you were
talking about, Pete, to me was like,
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"Boy, we have so many options to go"
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"in trying to tell
this story about emotions."
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That is true.
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That it was
going to be so difficult
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to just contain it.
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There were so many avenues
to explore.
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And we knew that we actually
have to explore
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almost everything about this concept.
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And it was
quite a bear to tackle.
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So, at about that time, Ronnie,
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I remember you were dealing
with the empty nest syndrome.
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- Both kids were in college.
- Yes.
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My daughter was about 11,
and she was starting to get quiet.
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I remember telling you guys,
"We just talked to her teacher,"
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"and they said she's a quiet kid."
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I'm like, "What?
What kid are you talking about?"
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And Ronnie's like,
"Yeah, I know about that."
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And so we looked to Ronnie
as the expert in all this.
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I was the cautionary tale.
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Meanwhile, Jonas Rivera,
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the producer,
had three and five-year-old kids,
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I think, who were just screaming
and running around all day.
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We're both looking back, going,
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"Yeah, I remember that.
Those were good days."
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I know. So each of us
had sections of experience to tell
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about our character.
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I actually can see further ahead
because of having experienced it.
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Pete's right in the middle of it.
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Jonas and Josh Cooley
were right at the very beginning.
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So, as we started talking
about that, I was like,
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"Yeah, I remember that being
a really hard time for me, growing up."
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So, it was a really difficult time.
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And I was seeing my daughter
going into that and thinking,
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"Oh, boy, this is going to be hard."
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So, that really became
the emotional core of the movie.
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Yeah, which we took like a way
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to workshop our concept of the movie,
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is to use our own experiences
as a laboratory.
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Can I talk about that
one thing I was talking about earlier...
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Yeah, jump in.
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About questions I would get?
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"So, did you guys get a script"
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"and then people told you,
the story department,"
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"to just illustrate the script?"
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Yeah, that's how it works, right?
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No, that's not how it works.
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Most people think that
there's a genius person
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that's locked in an ivory tower,
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that's going to go
and write all three acts perfectly.
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I'd like to meet that guy.
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I'd like
to meet that person, yes.
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But what I do know is this is how we've
grown up making animated features,
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is that we don't start out with a script.
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Pete and I, when we started this movie,
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Pete would tell me
what he's yearning to see in this movie
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and experience in this movie.
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It would be a big list of things
that all of us would be excited about,
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but we don't know where to start.
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We don't know what to do
other than tell each other stories
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of maybe our lives, our families,
what we did when we were kids.
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I heard a lot of stories about you, Pete,
growing up in Minnesota...
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Mmm-hmm.
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As a basis
of what can we build with.
201
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Yeah, if there's something
that's meaningful and truthful to us,
202
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largely that'll help inform
possible directions to go in the stories.
203
00:09:01,499 --> 00:09:04,353
Yeah, like one of the
stories that I remember hearing from you
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is that your family had taken
a lot of summer vacations
205
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packed in a car, and you guys
would drive to California.
206
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Yup.
207
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How many times
did you guys do that?
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Uh, it was pretty much
once a year.
209
00:09:14,512 --> 00:09:16,449
- Once a year?
- Maybe once every other year.
210
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We always went on a lot
of road trips though.
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Yes, and you see that
in the movie
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when Riley's family gets in the car
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and they drive
all the way to San Francisco.
214
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- Yeah.
- And that's fascinating.
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We are the yokels who are
in charge of telling the story.
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- Yeah.
- This is all you got.
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What we're going to be coming up with
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is what will eventually show up
in the movie.
219
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And it starts with telling stories
to each other
220
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and then drawing out characters.
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Pete had drawn all the emotions.
222
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These marker drawings,
very quick, shapes.
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Anger was this box character
224
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with his eyes glowering at you
at the top of his head,
225
00:09:50,507 --> 00:09:52,026
and there's smoke
coming out of his head.
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That's the basis of Anger
that you see now in the movie.
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It would seem like
every day and very common,
228
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just another person drawing
on a white piece of paper.
229
00:10:03,353 --> 00:10:06,773
And will that turn into a movie?
We don't know.
230
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Some of the elements did
and other ones didn't.
231
00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:11,277
And I always feel like having an idea
232
00:10:11,361 --> 00:10:14,614
is like whistling
on the steps of Carnegie Hall.
233
00:10:14,697 --> 00:10:17,450
That's not going to get you on stage,
just 'cause you whistle nicely.
234
00:10:17,534 --> 00:10:20,954
You got to practice, put in tons of hours,
work for years and years.
235
00:10:21,037 --> 00:10:24,124
And that's Ronnie and Josh
and the whole Story crew,
236
00:10:24,207 --> 00:10:25,959
various writers,
all these amazing people
237
00:10:26,042 --> 00:10:29,629
who are contributing an embarrassment
of riches to this thing.
238
00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:33,424
And you'll take one idea out of
a thousand that make it in the movie.
239
00:10:33,508 --> 00:10:34,860
That is very accurate.
240
00:10:34,884 --> 00:10:38,763
We try many ways to actually illustrate,
draw and tell the story.
241
00:10:38,847 --> 00:10:42,892
We have more stories to tell
about this amazing concept
242
00:10:42,976 --> 00:10:44,811
than we can fit into an hour and a half.
243
00:10:44,894 --> 00:10:46,563
And that may be obvious
to some people,
244
00:10:46,646 --> 00:10:50,984
but if you think about the concept,
how vast it is,
245
00:10:51,067 --> 00:10:55,530
we had even more exploration
than we really could afford to do,
246
00:10:55,613 --> 00:10:57,365
but we did it anyway.
247
00:10:57,448 --> 00:11:01,494
Because there was no way to be sure
that we are actually using
248
00:11:01,578 --> 00:11:05,498
every part of this concept
to the best effect.
249
00:11:05,582 --> 00:11:09,252
So, there's stories that we had explored,
it would be...
250
00:11:09,335 --> 00:11:10,771
You remember
when we explored the mind
251
00:11:10,795 --> 00:11:12,731
and one of the things
that you were fascinated with was,
252
00:11:12,755 --> 00:11:14,716
"Why is it that human beings
can remember faces"
253
00:11:14,966 --> 00:11:16,342
"but not remember names?"
254
00:11:16,426 --> 00:11:18,511
Oh, yeah,
the names and faces gag.
255
00:11:18,595 --> 00:11:19,780
Yeah.
256
00:11:19,804 --> 00:11:22,324
We had envisioned that
there are two different departments,
257
00:11:22,348 --> 00:11:23,409
and they don't like each other.
258
00:11:23,433 --> 00:11:24,434
That's right.
259
00:11:24,517 --> 00:11:26,060
Faces, they were very organized,
260
00:11:26,144 --> 00:11:29,647
and the Names guys were like,
"Uh, where did we put that stuff?"
261
00:11:29,731 --> 00:11:32,025
"Let's check in that sort of blue pile
over there."
262
00:11:32,108 --> 00:11:33,502
"I think it's over there."
263
00:11:33,526 --> 00:11:36,613
"Yeah, it's right
over there. Just shuffle around."
264
00:11:37,447 --> 00:11:39,657
"Move that shelf. It's somewhere there."
265
00:11:39,741 --> 00:11:43,161
And we were laughing.
We were having such a great time.
266
00:11:43,244 --> 00:11:45,514
- But it didn't stay in the movie.
- Didn't make it.
267
00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:46,891
Even though we were enjoying it.
268
00:11:46,915 --> 00:11:47,999
That's right.
269
00:11:48,082 --> 00:11:49,768
Josh and I were
talking about it yesterday,
270
00:11:49,792 --> 00:11:53,671
about when at one point
the punchline of the joke
271
00:11:53,755 --> 00:11:57,800
is that they were eating Chinese food
in takeout boxes.
272
00:11:57,884 --> 00:12:00,220
I was like, "This is really funny."
273
00:12:01,095 --> 00:12:04,432
Wait. Where did they get
the Chinese from?
274
00:12:04,515 --> 00:12:05,558
Yeah.
275
00:12:05,642 --> 00:12:07,953
Does this mean that
when we go outside of the Mind World,
276
00:12:07,977 --> 00:12:12,857
there's going to be Chinese restaurants
or Italian restaurants, burger joints?
277
00:12:12,941 --> 00:12:14,359
Um...
278
00:12:14,901 --> 00:12:16,402
That may be too much. Who knows?
279
00:12:16,486 --> 00:12:19,072
Yeah. So we tried it all.
280
00:12:19,906 --> 00:12:21,800
All right, let's talk a little bit
about cinematography.
281
00:12:21,824 --> 00:12:24,535
- We've dragged Patrick Lin in here.
- Hello.
282
00:12:24,619 --> 00:12:26,955
Patrick is our
DP in charge of layout.
283
00:12:27,038 --> 00:12:28,706
So, of course, the way layout works
284
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:31,459
is you guys just take
the storyboards from Story
285
00:12:31,542 --> 00:12:34,087
and make that framing, right?
286
00:12:34,170 --> 00:12:36,047
Yeah, exactly. DOCTER: No.
287
00:12:36,130 --> 00:12:37,191
No, it doesn't work that way.
288
00:12:37,215 --> 00:12:38,525
Almost we can
push a button and do it.
289
00:12:38,549 --> 00:12:39,652
Yeah, it's that easy.
290
00:12:39,676 --> 00:12:42,404
You're being facetious,
of course, because that's not quite it.
291
00:12:42,428 --> 00:12:45,515
Layout is in charge of actually,
for me anyway,
292
00:12:45,598 --> 00:12:50,561
experiencing what the actual movie
will look and feel like
293
00:12:50,645 --> 00:12:53,106
using cameras and the actual sets,
294
00:12:53,189 --> 00:12:54,983
the actual size of the characters,
295
00:12:55,066 --> 00:12:58,736
the limitations of their movement
and how fast the camera can move
296
00:12:58,820 --> 00:12:59,838
all starts becoming clear...
297
00:12:59,862 --> 00:13:00,947
Or not move.
298
00:13:01,030 --> 00:13:02,240
Or not move, yeah.
299
00:13:02,323 --> 00:13:04,158
Stillness also means something.
300
00:13:04,242 --> 00:13:08,997
Yeah, without that,
and if you follow just the board slavishly,
301
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,499
it would be a big holy mess.
302
00:13:11,582 --> 00:13:13,793
So then why do you bother
to draw it at all?
303
00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:18,464
Ah, drawing and story
is about storytelling and character
304
00:13:18,548 --> 00:13:23,469
and trying to uncover what is authentic,
what is funny,
305
00:13:23,553 --> 00:13:26,306
and what is meaningful
in our characters.
306
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:28,141
We test that in Story
over and over again.
307
00:13:28,224 --> 00:13:29,267
Drawing is cheap,
308
00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:31,537
so we can actually draw
these characters over and over again
309
00:13:31,561 --> 00:13:33,855
and throw out the bad ideas,
keep the good ones.
310
00:13:33,938 --> 00:13:35,648
That's an oversimplification.
311
00:13:35,732 --> 00:13:39,360
But we don't have to
think about the sets literally.
312
00:13:39,444 --> 00:13:42,822
We will put in a stand-in version
of the set in our minds
313
00:13:42,905 --> 00:13:45,199
and draw it kind of loosely.
314
00:13:45,283 --> 00:13:47,327
We don't have to
be too slavish with that.
315
00:13:47,410 --> 00:13:49,120
We want to discover the story there.
316
00:13:49,203 --> 00:13:52,457
In Layout,
you guys are actually handling
317
00:13:52,540 --> 00:13:55,043
the physical reality of the movie.
318
00:13:55,126 --> 00:13:58,004
Yeah, but we digest
what you give us.
319
00:13:58,087 --> 00:14:00,506
We take the essence of it
as our foundation,
320
00:14:00,590 --> 00:14:02,008
and we build it up from there.
321
00:14:02,091 --> 00:14:05,178
Yeah, Layout is part of
our storytelling team
322
00:14:05,261 --> 00:14:07,388
that wants to make sure
that the storytelling
323
00:14:07,472 --> 00:14:09,700
and the characters
and their emotions that's in our reels
324
00:14:09,724 --> 00:14:11,642
start their journey being translated.
325
00:14:11,726 --> 00:14:13,519
So, they're storytellers as well
326
00:14:13,603 --> 00:14:17,023
and they're guardians of
what is happening in the story reel.
327
00:14:17,106 --> 00:14:19,251
You want to just talk a little
about the camera work,
328
00:14:19,275 --> 00:14:23,571
the sort of rules you guys set up
between Headquarters inside the mind
329
00:14:23,654 --> 00:14:25,782
and Riley's world outside?
330
00:14:25,865 --> 00:14:29,369
Sure. Yeah, one thing
I love about the Inside Out world
331
00:14:29,452 --> 00:14:32,580
is the contrast between
the inside and the outside world.
332
00:14:32,663 --> 00:14:34,707
So, there's a camera structure
that we developed
333
00:14:34,791 --> 00:14:36,334
that is based on that contrast.
334
00:14:36,417 --> 00:14:37,418
Uh-huh.
335
00:14:37,502 --> 00:14:40,254
We developed two
very distinct visual styles,
336
00:14:40,338 --> 00:14:42,840
one for the inside world
and one for the outside world.
337
00:14:42,924 --> 00:14:44,926
For the outside world...
The idea is pretty simple.
338
00:14:45,009 --> 00:14:49,347
For the outside world, it's real locations,
so it should be very realistic.
339
00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:50,848
The camera movement, everything...
340
00:14:50,932 --> 00:14:52,242
Everything Steadicam kind of...
341
00:14:52,266 --> 00:14:53,309
Yeah, Steadicam.
342
00:14:53,393 --> 00:14:55,603
It should be flawed too
'cause real world is flawed.
343
00:14:55,686 --> 00:15:00,274
The inside is an imagined world.
So, it could be perfect and virtual.
344
00:15:00,358 --> 00:15:03,528
So, for the outside world, we tend to
use more camera movements
345
00:15:03,653 --> 00:15:06,864
such as Steadicams
and hand-held cameras,
346
00:15:07,448 --> 00:15:09,700
and the inside is very structured.
347
00:15:09,784 --> 00:15:13,079
Usually, it's more like a studio camera
with track and crane,
348
00:15:13,162 --> 00:15:15,581
a very controlled type
of camera movement.
349
00:15:15,665 --> 00:15:18,167
I remember you talking
about classic Hollywood films
350
00:15:18,251 --> 00:15:19,669
from the '40s and stuff.
351
00:15:19,752 --> 00:15:21,796
Yeah, in Act 1, inside world,
352
00:15:21,879 --> 00:15:25,383
we tend to treat the camera
as really big.
353
00:15:25,466 --> 00:15:29,178
And so the movement
and how we use the crane,
354
00:15:29,262 --> 00:15:33,349
everything is very controlled
and a little bit slower.
355
00:15:33,599 --> 00:15:36,602
When we move to Act 2 and Act 3,
356
00:15:36,686 --> 00:15:38,247
we treat the camera
as a more modern camera.
357
00:15:38,271 --> 00:15:39,272
Mmm-hmm.
358
00:15:39,355 --> 00:15:41,955
So, it's smaller and
the track and crane moves a lot quicker.
359
00:15:42,024 --> 00:15:44,694
It's still very controlled,
it's still on track and crane,
360
00:15:46,571 --> 00:15:48,173
but the pan and tilt is much quicker
to follow the actions,
361
00:15:48,197 --> 00:15:51,868
just so that there's a progression
from act one to act two to act three.
362
00:15:51,951 --> 00:15:54,287
On the outside, we started off...
363
00:15:54,370 --> 00:15:58,458
Whenever we move the camera,
we tend to use Steadicam.
364
00:15:58,541 --> 00:15:59,792
Mmm-hmm.
365
00:15:59,876 --> 00:16:03,421
Riley's growing up,
everything is very happy, kind of lyrical.
366
00:16:03,504 --> 00:16:05,298
And when we get to Act 2,
367
00:16:05,381 --> 00:16:09,594
that is when her emotions start to get
clamped down and become unstable.
368
00:16:09,677 --> 00:16:12,054
So, we changed
the camera style right there.
369
00:16:12,138 --> 00:16:15,099
So, we basically put the camera
on a tripod,
370
00:16:15,183 --> 00:16:17,852
and the only movement
that comes from the camera
371
00:16:17,935 --> 00:16:19,312
is the pan and tilt on lock head.
372
00:16:19,395 --> 00:16:20,438
Mmm-hmm.
373
00:16:20,521 --> 00:16:23,566
It's just to emphasize
Riley's unstable emotions.
374
00:16:23,649 --> 00:16:24,650
Hmm.
375
00:16:24,734 --> 00:16:25,985
And when we get to Act 3,
376
00:16:26,068 --> 00:16:29,947
then we take the intensity up a little bit
when we go hand-held.
377
00:16:30,031 --> 00:16:33,034
So, in some sense, the worlds
kind of come together a little bit.
378
00:16:33,117 --> 00:16:35,453
Yeah, so I think during
Act 1 and Act 2,
379
00:16:35,536 --> 00:16:38,247
both worlds have very distinct
camera movement styles.
380
00:16:38,331 --> 00:16:40,333
And I think the payoff is in Act 3
381
00:16:40,416 --> 00:16:43,669
when we're cutting back and forth
really quick between the two worlds.
382
00:16:43,753 --> 00:16:45,838
And that's when the intensity
comes to a crash.
383
00:16:45,922 --> 00:16:47,673
Also, it's both worlds coming together.
384
00:16:47,757 --> 00:16:48,758
Mmm-hmm.
385
00:16:49,467 --> 00:16:52,970
Ronnie and I worked with Patrick
on Up as well, which is fun.
386
00:16:53,054 --> 00:16:55,014
Because now when we get to this one,
387
00:16:55,097 --> 00:16:58,976
we kind of know what each other
are thinking and how to work together.
388
00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:01,395
You guys just talk about
how to toss this back and forth
389
00:17:01,479 --> 00:17:04,649
from story and boards to layout,
like that transition?
390
00:17:04,732 --> 00:17:07,985
Yeah, well, in Story,
we kind of have a general intention
391
00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:10,196
of what to feature.
392
00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:12,740
A lot of the times,
we probably have to just feature
393
00:17:12,823 --> 00:17:14,663
the characters right in the center
of the frame
394
00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:16,285
just to be able to tell the story.
395
00:17:16,369 --> 00:17:19,163
But because Patrick and I
worked before,
396
00:17:19,247 --> 00:17:21,707
we know that by the time
we get to layout,
397
00:17:21,791 --> 00:17:23,268
we know that we're going to make sure
398
00:17:23,292 --> 00:17:28,214
that we feature the cutting, framing
and the camera work to be very specific.
399
00:17:28,297 --> 00:17:30,299
For us, it's like screen direction.
400
00:17:30,383 --> 00:17:33,886
When you leave Headquarters,
we have to go to screen right.
401
00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:36,448
And if the characters are trying to
make their way back to Headquarters,
402
00:17:36,472 --> 00:17:37,824
they're going to go to screen left.
403
00:17:37,848 --> 00:17:40,008
Just in general.
We break that rule every now and then,
404
00:17:40,059 --> 00:17:42,311
but in the aggregate,
that's what we want to do.
405
00:17:42,395 --> 00:17:44,939
Then we had to design
the set to basically support that.
406
00:17:45,022 --> 00:17:47,733
- That was involving the art department.
- Yes.
407
00:17:47,817 --> 00:17:49,902
So we had those rules
very early in Story,
408
00:17:49,986 --> 00:17:52,989
and I conferred with Patrick
all along the process.
409
00:17:53,072 --> 00:17:54,365
That's how we worked in Up.
410
00:17:54,448 --> 00:17:57,201
We started very early,
when we were still storyboarding,
411
00:17:57,285 --> 00:18:00,162
designing the camera
and the film language.
412
00:18:00,246 --> 00:18:01,515
But going back
to what you're saying
413
00:18:01,539 --> 00:18:03,416
about we always draw
something in the center,
414
00:18:03,499 --> 00:18:05,876
that actually helped me in this film.
415
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,464
'Cause Riley is always drawn
in the center, flanked by the parents.
416
00:18:10,548 --> 00:18:15,011
I actually took that as how Riley
sees her as always in the center.
417
00:18:15,094 --> 00:18:18,347
So, I actually used that
when she got disconnected.
418
00:18:18,431 --> 00:18:20,766
When she feels disconnected
from the parents,
419
00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:23,227
- I just physically move her to the side.
- Mmm-hmm.
420
00:18:23,311 --> 00:18:25,771
- It was all planned.
- Yeah.
421
00:18:25,855 --> 00:18:27,189
It was all planned.
422
00:18:27,273 --> 00:18:31,235
Same with the first time
you pitched me Memory Dump.
423
00:18:31,319 --> 00:18:34,113
You said, "Keep this shot for Joy",
424
00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:36,699
"to be the closest shot
when she learned her lesson."
425
00:18:36,782 --> 00:18:37,783
Yeah, right.
426
00:18:37,867 --> 00:18:39,577
So I kind of take that idea
427
00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:42,747
and what if I have
some adult-type cameras
428
00:18:42,830 --> 00:18:45,082
when I frame the parents
429
00:18:45,166 --> 00:18:48,628
when Riley was born,
when Dad is yelling at Riley.
430
00:18:48,711 --> 00:18:50,713
Those are all parents' things
that they're doing.
431
00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:54,216
What if those are super-tight close-up
to represent adulthood,
432
00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:58,429
and I never get close to Joy
until the moment she learns?
433
00:18:58,512 --> 00:19:01,199
That's when we push in for the close-up,
and that's when she grows up.
434
00:19:01,223 --> 00:19:02,224
"See?"
435
00:19:03,392 --> 00:19:06,979
And at the end,
when Riley is embracing the parents,
436
00:19:07,063 --> 00:19:10,066
that's when we go in the tightest shot
of her and that's when she grows up.
437
00:19:10,149 --> 00:19:12,860
- So all those just come together.
- "Oh, there you go."
438
00:19:12,943 --> 00:19:16,155
See, there's method
in what seemingly is madness.
439
00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:18,240
But actually,
like Pete was saying earlier,
440
00:19:18,324 --> 00:19:19,492
a lot of it is invisible.
441
00:19:19,575 --> 00:19:21,720
If you start to notice it,
then I think we did a bad job.
442
00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:22,824
Yeah. LIN: Mmm-hmm.
443
00:19:22,870 --> 00:19:24,830
When we were telling the story,
444
00:19:24,914 --> 00:19:29,126
we had done only a few sequences
that we started to fall in love with.
445
00:19:29,210 --> 00:19:31,545
One of them was dinner
and the other one was Memory Dump
446
00:19:31,629 --> 00:19:36,676
where Joy learns the biggest lesson
that she has to learn in her journey.
447
00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:40,304
And it felt like we should be close to her
448
00:19:40,388 --> 00:19:44,934
when she is essentially owning up
to what mistakes she's made
449
00:19:45,059 --> 00:19:48,104
and trying to understand
what she's learning out of that.
450
00:19:48,187 --> 00:19:53,859
And when we did that, it felt like
we had to be so intimate with her.
451
00:19:53,943 --> 00:19:58,197
But I love what you're talking about,
that you also related that to the parents,
452
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,574
so you used that same camera work.
453
00:20:02,410 --> 00:20:04,638
Yeah, that framing,
more structure and more meaning.
454
00:20:04,662 --> 00:20:06,163
- Fascinating.
- Yeah.
455
00:20:07,456 --> 00:20:09,583
Patrick,
is there any shot in particular
456
00:20:09,667 --> 00:20:11,228
that you feel you're especially proud of,
457
00:20:11,252 --> 00:20:14,004
that's kind of
invisible and not noticed by...
458
00:20:14,088 --> 00:20:16,369
Uh... This shot we're watching
right now. Joy's plan.
459
00:20:16,757 --> 00:20:21,220
I think this is one of the more
complicated shots I've ever built.
460
00:20:21,303 --> 00:20:24,223
Uh, it is one of the moving master shots,
461
00:20:24,306 --> 00:20:27,852
and it is very long, extended length,
462
00:20:27,935 --> 00:20:30,896
but instead of using cuts
to create energy,
463
00:20:30,980 --> 00:20:34,400
we used character blocking and staging
to create that energy,
464
00:20:34,483 --> 00:20:36,402
with the character moving
around the camera.
465
00:20:36,485 --> 00:20:37,778
And there's a rhythm to it too.
466
00:20:37,862 --> 00:20:41,365
You first start with a wide shot,
we go into two medium shots,
467
00:20:41,449 --> 00:20:43,033
with Joy and Fear talking.
468
00:20:43,117 --> 00:20:48,247
And it goes into two full shots,
with Joy and Disgust.
469
00:20:48,330 --> 00:20:52,752
And then there's evolution
throughout the shots and staging.
470
00:20:54,628 --> 00:20:57,923
And also character, too.
Go from one to two to five,
471
00:20:58,007 --> 00:20:59,925
and then goes back to just Joy.
472
00:21:00,009 --> 00:21:03,512
There's a good rhythm to it,
and it was a hard shot to build.
473
00:21:03,846 --> 00:21:05,365
- It took me two weeks to build.
- Yeah.
474
00:21:05,389 --> 00:21:08,392
So you guys built the whole thing,
then Animation came in, right?
475
00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:11,145
Did you guys cycle through
with Animation?
476
00:21:11,228 --> 00:21:13,540
No, I think Travis did a really
good job following the timing.
477
00:21:13,564 --> 00:21:14,607
Oh, okay.
478
00:21:14,690 --> 00:21:17,443
- 'Cause it was how Kevin cuts it too.
- Right.
479
00:21:17,526 --> 00:21:20,946
It was really tightly timed
and there's a good rhythm to it.
480
00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:26,494
Yeah, in general, we didn't
allow the animation staff a lot of leeway
481
00:21:26,577 --> 00:21:31,332
because the comedy of this really
necessitated a certain rhythm to things.
482
00:21:31,415 --> 00:21:34,460
So, we couldn't just put extra frames in.
483
00:21:34,543 --> 00:21:36,962
Not one frame. No, not two...
484
00:21:37,046 --> 00:21:38,106
Can I have two more frames?
485
00:21:38,130 --> 00:21:39,232
They kind of got mad
at us sometimes.
486
00:21:39,256 --> 00:21:41,342
No, Pete has to say no.
487
00:21:41,425 --> 00:21:44,470
- And Kevin has to raise his hand up.
- "No, it would ruin the..."
488
00:21:45,679 --> 00:21:47,365
- It ruined the whole movie.
- No.
489
00:21:47,389 --> 00:21:48,682
The whole movie.
490
00:21:48,766 --> 00:21:52,144
But you give animation
a lot of breathing room,
491
00:21:52,228 --> 00:21:55,731
because being an animator yourself,
you know where the opportunities are,
492
00:21:55,815 --> 00:21:57,817
and when it's time
to actually give a frame,
493
00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:00,152
or two or five here and there.
494
00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:02,613
But this one shot,
when we were talking about it,
495
00:22:02,696 --> 00:22:03,856
we were inspired by a lot of.
496
00:22:03,906 --> 00:22:08,202
Vincente Minnelli
direction and musicals.
497
00:22:08,285 --> 00:22:09,912
Like Singin' in the Rain.
498
00:22:09,995 --> 00:22:14,542
And it felt like this would be our chance
to do a shot like that.
499
00:22:14,625 --> 00:22:16,961
Yeah, I'm inspired by Kurosawa.
500
00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:22,550
Those moving master shots
like in The Bad Sleep Well.
501
00:22:22,633 --> 00:22:26,011
There's something classy about it.
It's easier to do cuts.
502
00:22:26,095 --> 00:22:29,098
It would probably take me half
the time to do all the shots.
503
00:22:29,181 --> 00:22:32,560
But this is like so much more
elegant and classy.
504
00:22:32,643 --> 00:22:35,604
I know. I wish we could
do more of those in the movie.
505
00:22:35,688 --> 00:22:38,065
It's funny.
There is a sort of rhythm to cutting
506
00:22:38,148 --> 00:22:40,025
and a comedy to cutting
that you get used to.
507
00:22:40,109 --> 00:22:41,110
Mmm-hmm.
508
00:22:41,193 --> 00:22:45,030
And sometimes it's hard
to create that without that rhythm of,
509
00:22:45,114 --> 00:22:46,532
you know, bang, bang, bang, bang!
510
00:22:46,615 --> 00:22:48,200
There's kind of a surprise, even.
511
00:22:48,284 --> 00:22:50,619
One of the staples of
character animation is
512
00:22:50,703 --> 00:22:53,122
it's fun to see an expression change.
513
00:22:53,205 --> 00:22:56,458
So to go from happy
to depressed or something.
514
00:22:56,542 --> 00:22:59,253
But sometimes
the cutting will give you that.
515
00:22:59,336 --> 00:23:01,046
So you cut away from the character,
516
00:23:01,130 --> 00:23:02,770
and, then, bang,
by the time you cut back,
517
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,383
they're already in the depressed face.
518
00:23:04,466 --> 00:23:06,093
You don't watch them melt and that's...
519
00:23:06,176 --> 00:23:09,722
There's something kind of funny
about the surprise of that, sometimes.
520
00:23:09,805 --> 00:23:11,640
Anyway, not to argue your point at all.
521
00:23:11,724 --> 00:23:14,369
It's just, I think, there's a lot of
different ways to shoot things.
522
00:23:14,393 --> 00:23:15,453
Yeah. Sometimes it works.
523
00:23:15,477 --> 00:23:18,564
We also tried that at the end,
in the epilogue,
524
00:23:18,647 --> 00:23:21,275
when they are coming up
to the console...
525
00:23:21,358 --> 00:23:24,612
- Yeah.
- And we tried that in one shot, too.
526
00:23:24,695 --> 00:23:26,464
But the energy
just doesn't really feel right.
527
00:23:26,488 --> 00:23:27,966
- It drags things down.
- Yeah.
528
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:31,118
In that case, you know,
the cutting works.
529
00:23:31,201 --> 00:23:34,163
- But I was... We tried it...
- Yeah.
530
00:23:34,246 --> 00:23:35,515
There's different ways of doing it.
531
00:23:35,539 --> 00:23:37,041
Excellent. LIN: Yeah.
532
00:23:37,124 --> 00:23:38,768
All right.
Well, thanks, Patrick. That was great.
533
00:23:38,792 --> 00:23:40,461
Thank you for
having me on the show.
534
00:23:40,544 --> 00:23:42,296
- Thank you.
- All right.
535
00:23:42,379 --> 00:23:46,133
Okay. So let's talk about
some practical filmmaking things.
536
00:23:46,216 --> 00:23:49,428
One of the difficulties
of this whole concept
537
00:23:49,511 --> 00:23:52,598
is that the main relationship
that's at stake,
538
00:23:52,681 --> 00:23:56,018
Joy and Riley,
do not exist in the same world,
539
00:23:56,101 --> 00:23:59,355
and therefore
cannot be seen onscreen together.
540
00:23:59,438 --> 00:24:00,498
That is correct.
541
00:24:00,522 --> 00:24:02,042
Ronnie, you struggled with that
542
00:24:02,107 --> 00:24:03,668
and came up
with a bunch of different things.
543
00:24:03,692 --> 00:24:05,361
You wanna talk about any of the ideas?
544
00:24:05,444 --> 00:24:06,671
Yeah, we were always wondering,
545
00:24:06,695 --> 00:24:10,991
because Pete has loads of experience
of making Toy Story.
546
00:24:11,075 --> 00:24:14,286
The relationship of Woody to Andy
is very challenging.
547
00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:16,848
When you watch it, it feels like,
"Well, of course, it's beautiful."
548
00:24:16,872 --> 00:24:19,625
All the Toy Story movies,
you already know the rules,
549
00:24:19,708 --> 00:24:21,603
but here we were trying to
make up our own rules.
550
00:24:21,627 --> 00:24:23,087
And it was doubly hard
551
00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:25,798
because we cannot have
the two characters
552
00:24:25,881 --> 00:24:29,093
be in the same actual reality,
the same plane, together.
553
00:24:29,176 --> 00:24:30,236
Yeah, you're right.
554
00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:32,805
Toy Story, Woody couldn't be alive
in front of Andy,
555
00:24:32,888 --> 00:24:35,349
but at least he could hug him
and they could be together.
556
00:24:35,432 --> 00:24:37,518
In this movie
they can't even see each other.
557
00:24:37,601 --> 00:24:40,854
And not only that,
Woody can actually move objects
558
00:24:40,938 --> 00:24:45,484
and influence events
and the environment around Andy.
559
00:24:46,068 --> 00:24:48,779
Joy has no such luxury.
560
00:24:48,862 --> 00:24:52,157
And we were struggling on how to
actually make that happen.
561
00:24:52,241 --> 00:24:54,284
One of the things that we had right away
562
00:24:54,368 --> 00:24:56,537
was that front viewing screen.
563
00:24:56,620 --> 00:24:59,999
That they were actually going to
see the world through Riley's eyes.
564
00:25:00,082 --> 00:25:05,337
But Riley would never be in that view,
unless she was staring at a mirror.
565
00:25:05,421 --> 00:25:06,797
So we were, maybe...
566
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,984
Well, maybe she'll be staring
at mirrors all the time.
567
00:25:09,008 --> 00:25:10,568
Yeah, we thought
about having glass
568
00:25:10,592 --> 00:25:12,136
and reflective surfaces everywhere.
569
00:25:12,219 --> 00:25:14,972
Any kind of visual cue
to make Riley show up
570
00:25:15,055 --> 00:25:17,683
on that inside Headquarters.
571
00:25:17,766 --> 00:25:20,561
And that was very contrived
after a couple of tries.
572
00:25:21,603 --> 00:25:22,747
And then one of the things that we have
573
00:25:22,771 --> 00:25:25,357
also as an element in the movie
are memories.
574
00:25:25,441 --> 00:25:29,278
We had memories with Riley in them.
575
00:25:29,361 --> 00:25:33,198
So that if you play a memory
of Riley on the front screen,
576
00:25:33,282 --> 00:25:35,743
Riley would be in the room, so to speak.
577
00:25:35,826 --> 00:25:40,247
And that was the closest
that we can get Joy to Riley.
578
00:25:40,330 --> 00:25:43,375
Play a memory of Riley
there on the screen.
579
00:25:43,459 --> 00:25:48,005
Joy, when everybody's asleep, can
kind of walk up to the screen and talk.
580
00:25:48,088 --> 00:25:50,549
It's a one-way conversation albeit,
581
00:25:50,632 --> 00:25:54,803
but still it was the only way
that she can express how she feels,
582
00:25:54,887 --> 00:25:58,182
what her goals are, what her hopes are,
to that Riley on the screen.
583
00:25:58,265 --> 00:26:01,161
In fact, the skating scene was
something that Ronnie came up with,
584
00:26:01,185 --> 00:26:05,230
a way of getting the two of them
on the screen at the same time.
585
00:26:05,314 --> 00:26:08,400
Joy is replaying this memory
and Joy has seen it so many times,
586
00:26:08,484 --> 00:26:10,611
she can perform along with it.
587
00:26:10,694 --> 00:26:13,405
And it's a chance for her
to be with her kid,
588
00:26:13,489 --> 00:26:15,133
in a way that she can't
really in real life.
589
00:26:15,157 --> 00:26:16,867
So it's a really beautiful scene.
590
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:18,428
The other interesting thing about that is,
591
00:26:18,452 --> 00:26:20,746
as Joy turns the nightmare off,
592
00:26:20,829 --> 00:26:23,582
she looks up at the screen
and we cut to Riley.
593
00:26:23,665 --> 00:26:26,376
And we cut back to Joy,
and she has this sort of pained look,
594
00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:28,545
and she says,
"I'm not gonna end the day like this."
595
00:26:28,629 --> 00:26:30,130
All that sort of magic of cutting,
596
00:26:30,214 --> 00:26:32,758
which, of course,
doesn't really mean anything in real life,
597
00:26:32,841 --> 00:26:34,885
if you think about it,
she didn't see Riley.
598
00:26:34,968 --> 00:26:36,553
But through the miracle of editing,
599
00:26:36,637 --> 00:26:39,223
we sort of
imply that this connection is made.
600
00:26:39,306 --> 00:26:42,226
And that's something
we do throughout the film.
601
00:26:42,309 --> 00:26:44,478
Thank goodness for film language
602
00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:46,897
that was figured out years
and years ago.
603
00:26:47,231 --> 00:26:48,107
Dinner.
604
00:26:48,190 --> 00:26:50,526
This was the first scene
that was approved.
605
00:26:50,609 --> 00:26:53,946
It was approved like three years
before the film was done.
606
00:26:54,029 --> 00:26:56,281
And Ronnie boarded
and wrote most of this.
607
00:26:56,365 --> 00:26:57,592
This was very early.
608
00:26:57,616 --> 00:26:59,660
We didn't even have
Kevin Nolting in yet.
609
00:26:59,743 --> 00:27:00,994
We didn't have Josh yet.
610
00:27:01,078 --> 00:27:03,789
And Pete and I were riffing on
what would dinner be like.
611
00:27:03,872 --> 00:27:06,125
And how can we cut from three heads,
612
00:27:06,208 --> 00:27:09,837
inside and outside
three sets of emotions.
613
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,297
And I started workshopping with Pete.
614
00:27:12,381 --> 00:27:14,383
Pete's office is right next to me.
615
00:27:14,466 --> 00:27:16,093
This is the same way that we did Up.
616
00:27:16,176 --> 00:27:18,345
So I would write and sketch and draw,
617
00:27:18,428 --> 00:27:20,848
and then I would go
and barge into his office and pitch.
618
00:27:20,931 --> 00:27:23,642
And, then, if it's fun and funny,
then okay, that's encouragement.
619
00:27:23,725 --> 00:27:24,852
I can go back to my room.
620
00:27:24,935 --> 00:27:27,372
And then he would build on it,
and then he would come into my room,
621
00:27:27,396 --> 00:27:29,606
"Okay! What if he said
this, that and the other thing?"
622
00:27:29,690 --> 00:27:32,818
So both of us were trying
to make this sequence, dinner,
623
00:27:32,901 --> 00:27:35,863
just the germ of it, to happen as a pitch.
624
00:27:35,946 --> 00:27:36,989
Yeah.
625
00:27:37,072 --> 00:27:39,300
I was just looking at the first version,
where they were humanoid.
626
00:27:39,324 --> 00:27:40,385
They were human characters.
627
00:27:40,409 --> 00:27:41,553
They were totally different.
628
00:27:41,577 --> 00:27:43,495
Yeah, we thought of
these characters as,
629
00:27:43,579 --> 00:27:45,455
"What if the same actors played."
630
00:27:45,539 --> 00:27:48,876
"Riley's, Mom's and Dad's
Sadness or Fear or whoever?"
631
00:27:48,959 --> 00:27:51,712
We actually even recorded
all of our main cast,
632
00:27:51,795 --> 00:27:55,257
Phyllis and Amy and everybody,
doing all these other characters
633
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:56,842
with like a gravelly voice,
634
00:27:56,925 --> 00:27:58,886
or a high-pitched voice
for Mom or something.
635
00:27:58,969 --> 00:28:00,929
And it seemed funny in concept,
636
00:28:01,013 --> 00:28:03,891
but it got kind of confusing
and not as funny.
637
00:28:03,974 --> 00:28:05,851
It was hilarious to us, though.
638
00:28:05,934 --> 00:28:09,855
If you can hear Lewis Black in falsetto,
ridiculously fun.
639
00:28:09,938 --> 00:28:11,815
Yeah.
640
00:28:11,899 --> 00:28:14,860
And it felt like it started to work.
641
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:16,754
And one of the things that I did
was actually,
642
00:28:16,778 --> 00:28:18,530
just to make sure that this read in board,
643
00:28:18,614 --> 00:28:20,657
is to give all of Dad's
emotions mustaches.
644
00:28:20,741 --> 00:28:21,742
Yes.
645
00:28:21,825 --> 00:28:23,428
When we actually cracked dinner,
646
00:28:23,452 --> 00:28:25,579
it was kind of emblematic
647
00:28:25,662 --> 00:28:31,251
of what the experience in a movie
about emotions was going to feel like.
648
00:28:31,335 --> 00:28:33,616
Because we didn't solve everything
right in the beginning.
649
00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:36,381
This was the one sequence
that demonstrated
650
00:28:36,465 --> 00:28:40,219
what cutting from inside to outside
was going to be like.
651
00:28:40,302 --> 00:28:41,386
Yeah.
652
00:28:41,470 --> 00:28:44,348
And how many
characters' heads can we get into
653
00:28:46,183 --> 00:28:48,161
without failing to actually make it
entertaining or a coherent sequence.
654
00:28:48,185 --> 00:28:50,079
The other thing
that is interesting to point out
655
00:28:50,103 --> 00:28:53,440
about the dinner scene
is the number of different sets.
656
00:28:53,523 --> 00:28:56,068
We're in four sets,
constantly cutting back and forth.
657
00:28:56,151 --> 00:28:57,754
You have all these
different sets of characters
658
00:28:57,778 --> 00:28:59,404
who look pretty similar.
659
00:28:59,488 --> 00:29:01,949
So something that Ronnie
did in his boards very early on,
660
00:29:02,032 --> 00:29:03,617
which we echoed in final production,
661
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:07,412
is just staging the inside world
the same as Mom's.
662
00:29:07,496 --> 00:29:09,581
So Mom is on the left
looking to the right.
663
00:29:09,665 --> 00:29:12,918
When we zoom in her emotions
are on the left looking to the right.
664
00:29:13,001 --> 00:29:15,629
Dad's on the right looking to the left,
Riley is center.
665
00:29:15,712 --> 00:29:20,300
So all that stuff kind of echoes and
helps the audience orient themselves.
666
00:29:20,384 --> 00:29:23,679
So we were trying to make sure
that we lessen the confusion.
667
00:29:23,762 --> 00:29:26,098
John was starting
to respond to it and he says,
668
00:29:26,181 --> 00:29:28,892
- "This is why you make this movie."
- Yeah.
669
00:29:28,976 --> 00:29:31,120
From the very beginning
he was intrigued by the idea
670
00:29:31,144 --> 00:29:33,188
of going into multiple people's heads,
671
00:29:33,272 --> 00:29:36,566
and seeing the differences
in what their characters act like,
672
00:29:36,650 --> 00:29:41,446
and the design of the place was sort of
a NORAD kind of thing for Dad versus...
673
00:29:41,530 --> 00:29:44,283
I think we modelled it on
chat shows for Mom.
674
00:29:44,366 --> 00:29:46,994
So it was definitely
something that showed
675
00:29:47,077 --> 00:29:49,871
how fun the promise
of this film could be.
676
00:29:49,955 --> 00:29:52,291
The sort of boring
of what's going on outside,
677
00:29:52,374 --> 00:29:53,959
and the excitement of inside,
678
00:29:54,042 --> 00:29:57,462
and almost a call to nuclear war for Dad.
679
00:29:57,546 --> 00:29:58,672
That's what it's coming to.
680
00:29:58,755 --> 00:30:01,008
We felt like
we were so lucky to actually
681
00:30:01,091 --> 00:30:03,302
have this sequence very early.
682
00:30:03,385 --> 00:30:06,179
Of course, it didn't make it easier
for the next couple of years,
683
00:30:06,263 --> 00:30:08,640
because not everything else
revealed itself.
684
00:30:08,724 --> 00:30:10,084
Yeah, people will be like,
685
00:30:10,350 --> 00:30:12,436
"The dinner scene
is still your best scene."
686
00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:15,605
"The other ones should be
getting up to that level."
687
00:30:16,732 --> 00:30:18,150
Let's talk a little bit about Joy.
688
00:30:18,233 --> 00:30:20,819
For my money anyways,
I look back at the film process,
689
00:30:20,902 --> 00:30:24,239
the most difficult thing
to lock in on was Joy.
690
00:30:24,323 --> 00:30:27,117
There was all sorts of logic issues...
Designing the world,
691
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,245
I don't wanna say that that was easy,
that was not really easy.
692
00:30:30,329 --> 00:30:33,623
But Joy, as a character,
was just a tough nut to crack.
693
00:30:33,707 --> 00:30:36,168
People that are always
chipper and happy
694
00:30:36,251 --> 00:30:37,794
and you spend a lot of time around,
695
00:30:37,878 --> 00:30:39,421
it's not very fun.
696
00:30:39,504 --> 00:30:41,048
Which is counterintuitive in a sense.
697
00:30:41,131 --> 00:30:43,675
'Cause you think,
"Joy! I want happiness in my life,"
698
00:30:43,759 --> 00:30:46,279
but if there's too much of it,
you're just like, "My teeth hurt."
699
00:30:46,303 --> 00:30:50,849
That was notes we got on the first
four, five versions of the film.
700
00:30:50,932 --> 00:30:53,226
That people were like,
"Okay, the concept is great,"
701
00:30:53,310 --> 00:30:54,811
"I really don't like Joy."
702
00:30:54,895 --> 00:30:56,355
Yeah.
703
00:30:56,438 --> 00:30:59,149
I think a big, big key to discovering
704
00:30:59,232 --> 00:31:01,109
the character, of course,
was Amy Poehler.
705
00:31:01,193 --> 00:31:03,028
Once we started working with her,
706
00:31:03,111 --> 00:31:05,947
it just immediately,
like this enormous burden lifted.
707
00:31:06,031 --> 00:31:08,241
When I first met with her,
Jonas and I went to New York
708
00:31:08,325 --> 00:31:10,845
and we described the film and
all the fun that we're gonna have,
709
00:31:10,869 --> 00:31:13,038
and then we said,
"But we have this challenge,"
710
00:31:13,121 --> 00:31:15,457
and she said,
"I know what you're going against."
711
00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:16,958
"And I think I can help you."
712
00:31:17,042 --> 00:31:19,086
She was really amazingly perceptive.
713
00:31:19,169 --> 00:31:21,213
It took us four years to figure this out.
714
00:31:21,296 --> 00:31:23,632
And she was like, in 15 minutes,
she got it all.
715
00:31:23,715 --> 00:31:24,883
And the challenges of it.
716
00:31:24,966 --> 00:31:26,468
And it was really something
717
00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:29,054
that she was able to play
on Parks and Rec.
718
00:31:29,137 --> 00:31:32,307
Her character Leslie Knope
is really an overachiever.
719
00:31:32,391 --> 00:31:34,786
And I think that's why you forgive her
and why you like her, is that
720
00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:37,979
she's done all this happy, peppy work,
but she has worked so hard.
721
00:31:38,063 --> 00:31:41,274
"All right. I stayed up all night
and prepared like 8,000 versions of it."
722
00:31:41,358 --> 00:31:44,820
She didn't need to do that,
but she was working really, really hard.
723
00:31:44,903 --> 00:31:47,406
An overachiever
that you can relate to.
724
00:31:47,489 --> 00:31:48,490
Yeah.
725
00:31:49,324 --> 00:31:51,076
This right here, I'm...
726
00:31:51,159 --> 00:31:53,912
This was my suggestion,
to do these flash cuts,
727
00:31:53,995 --> 00:31:55,247
which I'm proud of
728
00:31:55,330 --> 00:31:58,834
'cause it, I think, worked out really...
It gets me, anyway.
729
00:32:00,001 --> 00:32:02,838
If you think of it again
from a logical standpoint...
730
00:32:02,921 --> 00:32:05,090
I don't know what we're cutting to.
731
00:32:05,173 --> 00:32:06,484
Joy is looking down over the edge,
732
00:32:06,508 --> 00:32:10,178
and we're just randomly
almost cutting to these scenes of Riley.
733
00:32:10,262 --> 00:32:13,640
What's inferred, of course,
is that they're Joy's memories
734
00:32:13,723 --> 00:32:17,853
of these wonderful, goofy things
that Riley did as a kid
735
00:32:17,936 --> 00:32:21,773
that she'll no longer do anymore,
now that that island is gone.
736
00:32:21,857 --> 00:32:26,695
And, again, it kind of echoes
what happens to our own kids.
737
00:32:26,778 --> 00:32:30,490
And something I definitely miss
about my kids when they were little,
738
00:32:30,574 --> 00:32:34,202
of just this goofball activity
that they would do.
739
00:32:34,286 --> 00:32:36,079
It happens less and less as we get old.
740
00:32:36,163 --> 00:32:38,123
And this scene,
741
00:32:38,206 --> 00:32:40,500
Dad coming over to tuck her in,
742
00:32:40,584 --> 00:32:43,920
after a very difficult moment
there at dinner,
743
00:32:44,754 --> 00:32:47,716
Dad noticing that
his daughter's changed.
744
00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:48,800
Yeah.
745
00:33:03,398 --> 00:33:06,443
This scene, I think,
was one of the last ones to lock
746
00:33:06,526 --> 00:33:09,237
because we always seem to
get to these places
747
00:33:09,321 --> 00:33:11,823
where we've built
various sections of the film,
748
00:33:11,907 --> 00:33:16,119
now they have to attach in some way
that doesn't go on for too long.
749
00:33:16,203 --> 00:33:18,997
And this scene was really draggy
750
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,583
until we cut it way down and way down.
751
00:33:21,666 --> 00:33:25,128
This little bit where Joy
does this happy laugh
752
00:33:25,212 --> 00:33:27,839
was something
that we dug up in editorial.
753
00:33:27,923 --> 00:33:30,634
I don't even remember
where Amy did it originally.
754
00:33:30,717 --> 00:33:32,177
Somewhere way else in the film.
755
00:33:33,345 --> 00:33:35,847
But we found that and like,
"Okay! Put that in there,"
756
00:33:35,931 --> 00:33:38,099
because we need some way to show
she's happy.
757
00:33:38,183 --> 00:33:39,744
We don't have a line
that we've recorded,
758
00:33:39,768 --> 00:33:41,662
even though we recorded this scene
like four times,
759
00:33:41,686 --> 00:33:45,065
we were throwing stuff out
and trying to get it to work and...
760
00:33:45,148 --> 00:33:47,025
But that's kind of fun
when you can spelunk
761
00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:49,945
and find these little bits
and put 'em together in ways that work.
762
00:33:50,028 --> 00:33:51,797
I'm glad that
you remember those things.
763
00:33:51,821 --> 00:33:56,701
Kevin! Kevin Nolting,
our editorial lead and guru in editorial,
764
00:33:56,785 --> 00:33:58,185
would know where to look for these.
765
00:33:58,245 --> 00:33:59,538
Yeah.
766
00:33:59,621 --> 00:34:01,623
This is what we came to call a Gilligan.
767
00:34:01,706 --> 00:34:04,668
It's from that Gilligan's Island thing
where he says,
768
00:34:04,751 --> 00:34:07,087
"I'm not gonna dress up like a girl,
you can't make me."
769
00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:09,190
And then...
You cut and he's dressed up like a girl.
770
00:34:09,214 --> 00:34:12,342
So this is Joy saying, "This is working!"
771
00:34:12,425 --> 00:34:13,861
And then you cut and...
"This is not working."
772
00:34:13,885 --> 00:34:14,946
"This is not working."
773
00:34:14,970 --> 00:34:16,113
The other thing I remember is that
774
00:34:16,137 --> 00:34:18,890
we actually played Joy
very frustrated in these scenes
775
00:34:18,974 --> 00:34:20,392
for a very long time,
776
00:34:20,475 --> 00:34:23,186
just to kind of like mirror
what we would get to
777
00:34:23,270 --> 00:34:25,272
if we were in her shoes.
778
00:34:25,355 --> 00:34:27,023
But her being Joy, actually,
779
00:34:27,107 --> 00:34:30,026
her reaction to it is to
try and put a positive spin.
780
00:34:30,110 --> 00:34:32,279
"This is not disastrous."
781
00:34:32,362 --> 00:34:35,615
"We can make this work. Can we?"
782
00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:38,535
And she's desperately
trying to find an upside.
783
00:34:38,618 --> 00:34:41,580
I like that her hair's
all messed up though. It's funny.
784
00:34:41,663 --> 00:34:43,623
This is seeing the Forgetters.
785
00:34:43,707 --> 00:34:45,625
And this grew out of the idea that okay,
786
00:34:45,959 --> 00:34:49,462
out of all these millions of memories,
some of them are gonna be forgotten.
787
00:34:49,546 --> 00:34:51,381
And I think this came pretty early on,
788
00:34:51,464 --> 00:34:54,259
that the brightness
and the clarity of the image
789
00:34:54,342 --> 00:34:56,970
would equate to how clear that memory
is in our own heads.
790
00:34:57,053 --> 00:34:59,472
There are gonna be some
that are just too faded
791
00:34:59,556 --> 00:35:00,908
and so those need to be thrown out.
792
00:35:00,932 --> 00:35:04,352
The Forgetters have a job.
They know what they need to do.
793
00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:08,273
This was, I think, a combination of
Josh Cooley and Simon Rich,
794
00:35:08,356 --> 00:35:09,917
who wrote on the film for quite a while.
795
00:35:09,941 --> 00:35:13,612
Just coming up with examples of
weird stuff that makes sense
796
00:35:13,695 --> 00:35:17,157
because it equates to our own
lack of memory.
797
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:19,409
The Forgetters is very interesting to me.
798
00:35:19,492 --> 00:35:23,580
Those characters did not exist
in our cast of characters.
799
00:35:23,663 --> 00:35:25,624
Pete was the one who would come
into the room,
800
00:35:25,707 --> 00:35:27,876
he's like,
"You know what would be funny?"
801
00:35:27,959 --> 00:35:29,628
"Is if you have Forgetters."
802
00:35:29,711 --> 00:35:32,464
Back then it was kind of like,
"But what would they do?"
803
00:35:32,714 --> 00:35:34,424
Then you weren't convinced?
804
00:35:34,507 --> 00:35:35,943
We weren't sold right away.
805
00:35:35,967 --> 00:35:37,194
And then he would come back again,
806
00:35:37,218 --> 00:35:38,696
he's like,
"You know what would be great here?"
807
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:40,805
"Is if we have these characters
called Forgetters."
808
00:35:40,889 --> 00:35:43,224
And he would try over and over
and over again,
809
00:35:43,308 --> 00:35:46,227
until one day
actually he was right all along.
810
00:35:46,311 --> 00:35:47,979
"Forgetters should be here."
811
00:35:48,063 --> 00:35:51,524
This idea of replaying
the memory, of actually sending it up,
812
00:35:51,608 --> 00:35:56,780
came later as a way to show that
when you do this to the memory,
813
00:35:56,863 --> 00:35:59,449
it goes up that tube,
it shows up in Headquarters,
814
00:35:59,532 --> 00:36:02,118
which is gonna be what
Joy and Sadness are gonna attempt
815
00:36:03,161 --> 00:36:04,287
late in Act 2.
816
00:36:04,371 --> 00:36:05,851
So that was a way of setting that up.
817
00:36:05,914 --> 00:36:07,832
And, also, hopefully getting
a bit of a laugh.
818
00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:10,543
And luckily we recorded
everybody on the cast
819
00:36:10,627 --> 00:36:12,879
humming the TripleDent gum song.
820
00:36:12,962 --> 00:36:16,800
So when you cut to Riley
and she's talking to her friend,
821
00:36:16,883 --> 00:36:20,512
we had that from Kaitlyn Dias,
who's the voice of Riley.
822
00:36:20,595 --> 00:36:23,264
Yes,
and Pete Docter wrote that song.
823
00:36:23,348 --> 00:36:24,575
Oh, it's a wonderful song.
824
00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:27,936
No, no, he wrote it as if
like he's been hearing it all his life.
825
00:36:28,019 --> 00:36:31,106
- And he wrote it, you actually...
- I had to sing it for people.
826
00:36:31,189 --> 00:36:32,458
You had to sing it for people.
827
00:36:32,482 --> 00:36:35,944
But you also directed the way
that they sang it in terms of...
828
00:36:36,027 --> 00:36:38,707
- Because Pete's a musical genius.
- I'll sing it for you right now.
829
00:36:40,031 --> 00:36:41,741
Okay. Never mind.
830
00:36:41,825 --> 00:36:44,035
Uh, the Friendship Island...
831
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,830
We wanted to make it clear
that it was going down
832
00:36:46,913 --> 00:36:48,039
in some different way,
833
00:36:48,123 --> 00:36:51,000
to experience it in a different way
than Goofball did.
834
00:36:51,084 --> 00:36:52,669
So the scale of it,
835
00:36:52,752 --> 00:36:55,797
and, of course, Goofball, they were
running across it when it went down.
836
00:36:58,341 --> 00:36:59,718
When Goofball Island went down,
837
00:36:59,801 --> 00:37:03,388
we were sort of aware that we have
a number of these islands
838
00:37:03,471 --> 00:37:05,765
that could feel repetitive, you know?
839
00:37:05,849 --> 00:37:08,643
Once you establish a pattern of,
"Uh-oh, the Island went down."
840
00:37:08,727 --> 00:37:10,562
"I have a flash cut
of what that means to me,"
841
00:37:10,645 --> 00:37:11,896
in terms of Riley, who's like,
842
00:37:11,980 --> 00:37:13,273
"Oh, man, this could get old."
843
00:37:13,356 --> 00:37:15,817
So we worked hard to stage it
in a different way,
844
00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:17,944
to show the memory
as opposed to flash cuts.
845
00:37:18,027 --> 00:37:20,029
Anything we could do
to kind of differentiate it
846
00:37:20,113 --> 00:37:21,698
from the first one, from Goofball...
847
00:37:27,996 --> 00:37:29,539
Let's talk about Bing Bong.
848
00:37:29,622 --> 00:37:33,543
Bing Bong was a character that
was born out of another scene,
849
00:37:33,626 --> 00:37:38,715
that Joy found all of these forgotten,
imaginary friends,
850
00:37:38,798 --> 00:37:39,984
characters that Riley had created.
851
00:37:40,008 --> 00:37:44,012
Like Mrs. Scribbles, who's kind of
a crude kid's drawing of a person.
852
00:37:44,095 --> 00:37:45,448
- In crayon.
- Yeah.
853
00:37:45,472 --> 00:37:48,099
And the sun, who is, you know,
the classic quarter of the sun
854
00:37:48,183 --> 00:37:49,642
poking in the corner of the page.
855
00:37:49,726 --> 00:37:50,810
The corner sun.
856
00:37:50,894 --> 00:37:53,164
But then as you reveal
the character, that's all it was.
857
00:37:54,272 --> 00:37:55,916
And Bing Bong
was one of those characters
858
00:37:55,940 --> 00:37:58,526
that hung out with these
out-of-work actors essentially.
859
00:37:58,610 --> 00:38:01,488
Yeah. They were
kind of like camping out
860
00:38:01,571 --> 00:38:03,007
in one forgotten corner of the mind.
861
00:38:03,031 --> 00:38:04,407
But as the story refined,
862
00:38:04,491 --> 00:38:06,618
we realized Bing Bong
could be really cool in that
863
00:38:06,701 --> 00:38:09,454
he is Joy to the extreme.
864
00:38:09,537 --> 00:38:11,623
So Sadness is
kind of the opposite of Joy,
865
00:38:11,706 --> 00:38:13,958
in terms of what she knows.
866
00:38:14,042 --> 00:38:16,127
Joy is trying to hold on to childhood.
867
00:38:16,211 --> 00:38:19,756
Sadness already, sort of, intuitively
knows that we need to move on.
868
00:38:19,839 --> 00:38:23,301
So what if we took Bing Bong
and made him even more like Joy?
869
00:38:23,384 --> 00:38:26,638
In that he basically acts
like a three-year-old.
870
00:38:26,846 --> 00:38:29,974
And he thinks Riley should still be
basically three years old.
871
00:38:30,058 --> 00:38:32,977
And Joy could then come
in the course of the film to realize,
872
00:38:33,061 --> 00:38:35,522
"Gee, that's kind of crazy talk, you know."
873
00:38:35,605 --> 00:38:37,440
"Maybe I've been taking things too far."
874
00:38:37,524 --> 00:38:39,609
And Bing Bong being
875
00:38:39,692 --> 00:38:42,987
an imaginary friend
when Riley was little,
876
00:38:43,071 --> 00:38:47,116
he was very vital in Riley's life then.
877
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,620
But Riley's a little older now,
and he doesn't have a job anymore.
878
00:38:50,703 --> 00:38:51,746
Yeah.
879
00:39:02,090 --> 00:39:04,467
The Bing Bong introduction
at the very beginning
880
00:39:04,551 --> 00:39:06,278
was something we tacked on
at the last minute.
881
00:39:06,302 --> 00:39:09,013
Josh wrote this little thing of him
muttering to himself,
882
00:39:09,097 --> 00:39:10,849
which I thought was very fun.
883
00:39:10,932 --> 00:39:12,976
Oh, this scene here when he says,
884
00:39:13,059 --> 00:39:17,105
"Well, there's not much call
for imaginary friends lately. So..."
885
00:39:17,772 --> 00:39:20,775
There was a whole second part
of that line,
886
00:39:20,859 --> 00:39:24,863
it's just one of many examples
where you overwrite stuff,
887
00:39:24,946 --> 00:39:29,033
and then the performer, the actor,
is able to infer all that
888
00:39:29,117 --> 00:39:31,035
in just one part of a line.
889
00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:32,495
So when he says,
890
00:39:32,579 --> 00:39:35,182
"There's not
much call for imaginary friends lately."
891
00:39:35,206 --> 00:39:38,543
You already get the second half
of the line was something like,
892
00:39:38,626 --> 00:39:42,213
"I'm starting to think
I'll never be part of Riley's life again."
893
00:39:42,297 --> 00:39:43,840
And then he'd start to cry.
894
00:39:43,923 --> 00:39:46,259
So, um, we just didn't need that.
You cut it off.
895
00:39:46,342 --> 00:39:48,279
And there's so many examples
of those kind of things.
896
00:39:48,303 --> 00:39:51,389
And that's also
the magic of the great Richard Kind.
897
00:39:51,472 --> 00:39:52,473
Yeah, it is.
898
00:39:52,557 --> 00:39:55,852
And he could actually make you
899
00:39:55,935 --> 00:39:58,521
experience a whole range of emotions
900
00:39:58,605 --> 00:40:02,317
and behavior just by his vocalizations.
901
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:03,544
This is kind of interesting.
902
00:40:03,568 --> 00:40:06,529
The magic bag here
grew out of the fact that.
903
00:40:06,613 --> 00:40:09,824
Joy was gonna have to
walk through the entire movie
904
00:40:09,908 --> 00:40:11,993
carrying these five bowling balls.
905
00:40:12,076 --> 00:40:14,662
So that was really limiting for her acting.
906
00:40:14,746 --> 00:40:18,166
She couldn't ever gesture
or hold anything other than those.
907
00:40:18,249 --> 00:40:20,919
So we thought,
"Well, let's make this bag."
908
00:40:21,002 --> 00:40:22,754
"Well, are we gonna be able to buy"
909
00:40:22,837 --> 00:40:24,815
"that she stuffed all of those
in this little bag?"
910
00:40:24,839 --> 00:40:27,425
"Let's make it an imaginary bag,
all right?"
911
00:40:27,508 --> 00:40:29,844
And then,
we ended up using it for the third act.
912
00:40:29,928 --> 00:40:32,138
So, hopefully,
it all kind of comes together.
913
00:40:32,221 --> 00:40:35,683
It sounds like
we planned it all along.
914
00:40:35,934 --> 00:40:38,561
But it was a long time
when we tried to actually make sure
915
00:40:38,645 --> 00:40:40,772
that the bag only held five.
916
00:40:40,855 --> 00:40:41,898
Yeah.
917
00:40:41,981 --> 00:40:45,193
And then it became
even more cumbersome
918
00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:46,778
to actually make that real.
919
00:40:46,861 --> 00:40:48,947
"Actually that bag
is gonna be really big."
920
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:50,615
Yeah. Yeah.
921
00:40:50,698 --> 00:40:52,200
So, it's an imaginary bag.
922
00:40:56,037 --> 00:40:59,624
Bing Bong's spelling of D-A-N-G-E-R,
that was something Cooley wrote.
923
00:40:59,707 --> 00:41:02,835
Josh Cooley, again,
our head of story and writer.
924
00:41:03,252 --> 00:41:05,630
He wrote that and then
it came under scrutiny
925
00:41:05,713 --> 00:41:09,550
because people were like,
"Well, if Joy... Joy knows how to spell."
926
00:41:09,634 --> 00:41:13,805
"And if she follows this guy willingly
into a danger place,"
927
00:41:13,888 --> 00:41:15,598
"does it make her dumb?"
928
00:41:15,682 --> 00:41:18,851
And the answer is, "Yes.
But we don't care because it's funny."
929
00:41:18,935 --> 00:41:22,480
Yes, and actually,
Joy just wants to get through.
930
00:41:22,563 --> 00:41:25,525
Even if she's like,
"Oh, yeah. Well... Whatever."
931
00:41:25,608 --> 00:41:27,448
- Yeah.
- "Whatever gets me back home."
932
00:41:27,527 --> 00:41:28,527
Yeah.
933
00:41:44,919 --> 00:41:47,213
So this is Ronnie's big part
in the movie. Ready?
934
00:41:48,589 --> 00:41:50,189
- There it is!
- Let's cut this part out.
935
00:41:51,217 --> 00:41:53,362
I'm sure that
somebody was gonna cut this part out.
936
00:41:53,386 --> 00:41:55,447
That's Ronnie saying
"loneliness," which is fun.
937
00:41:55,471 --> 00:41:58,975
And Elissa Knight who is...
She's the voice of EVE in WALL-E.
938
00:41:59,058 --> 00:42:02,603
And she did all of our scratch recording,
our temporary recording, for Joy.
939
00:42:02,687 --> 00:42:04,748
- We put her through the wringer.
- Yeah.
940
00:42:04,772 --> 00:42:06,274
She is such a trouper.
941
00:42:06,357 --> 00:42:09,902
She was our Joy for the longest time
in our temp tracks
942
00:42:10,445 --> 00:42:12,905
and informed a lot of our discoveries
about Joy.
943
00:42:19,412 --> 00:42:23,041
Abstract thought was
one of those we came up with early on.
944
00:42:23,124 --> 00:42:25,293
We made... Remember, we made
a list on the white board
945
00:42:25,376 --> 00:42:27,962
of all the different places in the mind
that you could go.
946
00:42:28,046 --> 00:42:29,881
And this was one we circled.
947
00:42:29,964 --> 00:42:32,341
We were like,
"We got to go there. I wanna see..."
948
00:42:32,425 --> 00:42:36,763
'Cause we can bring the audience,
and visualize this stuff in ways
949
00:42:36,846 --> 00:42:39,015
that you could never do
in any other way.
950
00:42:39,098 --> 00:42:42,560
Yeah, we were jonesing on,
951
00:42:42,643 --> 00:42:45,063
- "We can do 2-D!"
- Yeah!
952
00:42:45,146 --> 00:42:46,832
"What? That'd be awesome!"
953
00:42:46,856 --> 00:42:48,733
Yeah. And if you
listen to the track,
954
00:42:48,816 --> 00:42:52,653
the audio actually reflects
the visuals as well.
955
00:42:52,737 --> 00:42:55,323
It starts in surround,
and then when it goes 2-D,
956
00:42:55,406 --> 00:42:56,616
it all goes to the front.
957
00:42:56,699 --> 00:43:00,703
And then when it goes abstract,
it all goes to the center speaker,
958
00:43:00,787 --> 00:43:02,914
and it's very compressed and confined.
959
00:43:02,997 --> 00:43:05,208
So that was a really fun sequence to do.
960
00:43:05,291 --> 00:43:08,878
We actually put together
a separate team, a special team,
961
00:43:08,961 --> 00:43:10,588
that did all the modelling,
962
00:43:10,671 --> 00:43:12,924
the design work,
the lighting and everything in there,
963
00:43:13,007 --> 00:43:14,887
so that it would be as efficient as
we could be.
964
00:43:15,176 --> 00:43:16,844
Yes. We isolated them,
965
00:43:16,928 --> 00:43:19,931
we kept them from food
and human contact.
966
00:43:20,014 --> 00:43:22,433
And that's why that sequence
is so insane.
967
00:43:22,517 --> 00:43:25,157
Well, weirdly, that's
one of those, because it's different,
968
00:43:25,186 --> 00:43:27,980
it is hugely expensive.
969
00:43:28,564 --> 00:43:30,417
- It looks simple.
- It looks simple.
970
00:43:30,441 --> 00:43:34,070
You know, anything outside
sort of the normal production pipeline
971
00:43:34,153 --> 00:43:35,446
makes for difficulties.
972
00:43:36,155 --> 00:43:37,591
So it was one of those sequences
973
00:43:37,615 --> 00:43:39,215
that was not easy to actually make work,
974
00:43:39,242 --> 00:43:42,120
but one that when we started
working on it, it was so fun,
975
00:43:42,203 --> 00:43:44,872
and it proved that
it definitely has to be in the film.
976
00:43:44,956 --> 00:43:47,792
At first it really just felt
kind of gratuitous.
977
00:43:47,875 --> 00:43:50,378
And so we came up
with this idea of four stages.
978
00:43:50,461 --> 00:43:53,214
This was the first
and it became a ticking clock thing.
979
00:43:53,297 --> 00:43:56,384
So every time they abstract,
yeah, it's fun to look at,
980
00:43:57,426 --> 00:43:59,106
but it's also tightening the wrench and...
981
00:43:59,137 --> 00:44:01,848
More dangerous
the longer they stay there.
982
00:44:01,931 --> 00:44:05,685
Of course, it's also the first
test of Bing Bong's ability as a guide,
983
00:44:05,768 --> 00:44:06,769
which he flunks, right?
984
00:44:07,937 --> 00:44:09,164
So Joy starts
to check in with Sadness,
985
00:44:09,188 --> 00:44:12,608
which is kind of a little tick
in her relationship with Sadness.
986
00:44:13,901 --> 00:44:17,155
Imagination Land was
one of those examples of childhood,
987
00:44:17,238 --> 00:44:18,781
of holding on to childhood.
988
00:44:18,865 --> 00:44:22,785
And so this scene,
I think we initially designed it as
989
00:44:22,869 --> 00:44:28,833
again echoing that idea that Joy loves
and relishes all those childhood things.
990
00:44:28,916 --> 00:44:32,128
Um, but in our first script
they were being torn down,
991
00:44:32,211 --> 00:44:35,798
making way for new stuff like
the Imaginary Boyfriend Generator
992
00:44:35,882 --> 00:44:36,883
and things like that.
993
00:44:36,966 --> 00:44:40,136
That's why you notice
that the design of these...
994
00:44:40,219 --> 00:44:43,973
The whole place
is not so colorful or shiny.
995
00:44:44,056 --> 00:44:46,350
Everything's a little disheveled, unused.
996
00:44:46,434 --> 00:44:49,145
It's kind of like
an abandoned theme park.
997
00:44:51,439 --> 00:44:53,774
Bing Bong's rocket was something
998
00:44:53,858 --> 00:44:56,402
that we had
many long discussions about as well,
999
00:44:56,485 --> 00:44:59,363
because we knew...
I think we designed it early on,
1000
00:44:59,447 --> 00:45:01,741
and we were using it as a way
to get out of the dump,
1001
00:45:01,824 --> 00:45:04,076
but we hadn't really folded it in,
in any real way.
1002
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:05,369
So we had one version where...
1003
00:45:05,453 --> 00:45:07,872
"Well, let's just have him
introduced with it."
1004
00:45:07,955 --> 00:45:09,040
So, when we first meet him
1005
00:45:09,123 --> 00:45:11,375
as he's scavenging
through the memory shelves,
1006
00:45:11,459 --> 00:45:12,668
he would have that rocket.
1007
00:45:12,752 --> 00:45:13,937
But then we were like,
"Well, wait a minute."
1008
00:45:13,961 --> 00:45:17,131
"If he has the rocket, why don't they
just use it to get back to Headquarters?"
1009
00:45:19,675 --> 00:45:22,279
So, we had to say, "Well, okay,
let's wait to reveal it till later."
1010
00:45:22,303 --> 00:45:23,804
"And how much can we get away with?"
1011
00:45:23,888 --> 00:45:26,200
"Like, if you introduce it
right before they throw it away,"
1012
00:45:26,224 --> 00:45:27,934
"then it doesn't really have any value."
1013
00:45:28,017 --> 00:45:29,644
So, it's just one of these things
1014
00:45:29,727 --> 00:45:31,330
that happened in the course
of making the movie
1015
00:45:31,354 --> 00:45:33,231
that you kind of just accept
as an audience,
1016
00:45:33,314 --> 00:45:36,275
but you don't know
all this incredible work
1017
00:45:36,359 --> 00:45:37,944
that went into making it play.
1018
00:45:38,027 --> 00:45:39,028
Oh, yes.
1019
00:45:40,488 --> 00:45:43,449
Speaking of which,
we used to end Imagination Land
1020
00:45:44,408 --> 00:45:46,160
with Bing Bong
kind of getting distracted.
1021
00:45:46,244 --> 00:45:47,638
Like, "Hey, hey, let's go this way."
1022
00:45:47,662 --> 00:45:49,705
"I want you to see this thing.
Come over here."
1023
00:45:49,789 --> 00:45:52,500
And Joy going, "Yeah, but
shouldn't we... Hey, Bing Bong, wait."
1024
00:45:52,583 --> 00:45:56,712
That was a cliffhanger which seemed
like an interesting idea.
1025
00:45:56,796 --> 00:45:59,715
Then we realized, "Well, we're starting
the scene negative."
1026
00:45:59,799 --> 00:46:02,885
"So, we should reverse it
and make it a positive ending."
1027
00:46:02,969 --> 00:46:06,514
And everything is all good
on that subplot.
1028
00:46:06,597 --> 00:46:09,809
Meanwhile,
Riley is here playing hockey
1029
00:46:09,892 --> 00:46:11,644
and having a tough time of it.
1030
00:46:11,727 --> 00:46:13,020
Hockey is one of those things
1031
00:46:13,104 --> 00:46:15,940
that was definitely part of
my childhood in Minnesota.
1032
00:46:16,023 --> 00:46:18,734
Minnesota being kind of
the annex of Canada,
1033
00:46:18,818 --> 00:46:21,404
hockey was really big in Minnesota.
1034
00:46:21,487 --> 00:46:24,782
So, even though I can't even
stand up on the ice,
1035
00:46:24,865 --> 00:46:27,159
it felt like something that we could use
1036
00:46:27,243 --> 00:46:30,705
as a representation of Riley's childhood
and the things she loved
1037
00:46:30,788 --> 00:46:32,415
that now she's going to give up
1038
00:46:32,498 --> 00:46:35,084
or at least have
some different relationship with.
1039
00:46:35,167 --> 00:46:38,337
And it was a chance
for us to show Headquarters again.
1040
00:46:38,421 --> 00:46:39,581
They are kind of discovering,
1041
00:46:39,630 --> 00:46:41,549
along with the audience,
how things work.
1042
00:46:41,632 --> 00:46:44,593
'Cause this is a state
that Riley's never really been in before.
1043
00:46:44,677 --> 00:46:46,321
They've never lost
all the core memories.
1044
00:46:46,345 --> 00:46:49,032
"So, maybe if we put one of these
other ones in, that would work? No."
1045
00:46:49,056 --> 00:46:51,136
So, we're trying to close the doors
for the audience,
1046
00:46:52,018 --> 00:46:53,620
like the only solution
is to bring these things back.
1047
00:46:53,644 --> 00:46:54,895
Yes.
1048
00:46:58,441 --> 00:47:02,111
So, this is Bing Bong now
at a big turn in his arc.
1049
00:47:02,194 --> 00:47:04,447
So, if you think of him
as being completely innocent
1050
00:47:04,530 --> 00:47:06,824
and kind of blind to reality
when we met him,
1051
00:47:06,907 --> 00:47:10,661
this beat here shows
that no longer is he valued,
1052
00:47:10,745 --> 00:47:12,538
that his stuff's ready to be thrown away.
1053
00:47:12,621 --> 00:47:15,916
And he says,
"Riley can't be done with me."
1054
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,627
And it's a big, big turn for him.
1055
00:47:18,711 --> 00:47:22,340
Yeah, actually
every time I watch this sequence,
1056
00:47:22,423 --> 00:47:25,217
I'm amazed that we actually show
1057
00:47:25,301 --> 00:47:28,054
the history of Imagination Land
in one sequence.
1058
00:47:28,137 --> 00:47:29,239
When you walk through the gates,
1059
00:47:29,263 --> 00:47:32,600
it seems like everything
is so beautiful and so playful.
1060
00:47:32,683 --> 00:47:34,810
And then you see it being torn down...
Oh, my gosh.
1061
00:47:34,894 --> 00:47:38,064
It's had a life cycle already.
1062
00:47:38,147 --> 00:47:39,774
Ed Catmull, president of Pixar,
1063
00:47:39,857 --> 00:47:42,360
had some interesting notes
for us on this scene.
1064
00:47:42,443 --> 00:47:46,739
Because he felt like we were giving
away the punchline with this scene,
1065
00:47:46,822 --> 00:47:48,741
that the fact that Sadness...
1066
00:47:48,824 --> 00:47:50,701
In fact, at the first pass through this,
1067
00:47:50,785 --> 00:47:53,537
we had much deeper discussion
at the end of it.
1068
00:47:53,621 --> 00:47:54,765
- Remember that?
- Yes.
1069
00:47:54,789 --> 00:47:56,600
So Joy says,
"How did you do that?" to Sadness.
1070
00:47:56,624 --> 00:47:57,893
And she says, "Well, I don't know."
1071
00:47:57,917 --> 00:48:00,419
"He was sad,
so I listened to what he was sad about."
1072
00:48:00,503 --> 00:48:02,671
And she walks away,
and Joy's like, "Hmm."
1073
00:48:02,755 --> 00:48:07,259
Because of that especially, Ed felt like
the ending is not really a surprise now
1074
00:48:07,343 --> 00:48:10,388
because we know,
from that reaction there,
1075
00:48:10,471 --> 00:48:12,932
what's going to happen.
So we cut it way back.
1076
00:48:13,015 --> 00:48:16,560
We actually went through a whole pass
of trying to disguise this even more
1077
00:48:16,644 --> 00:48:19,405
to the point of actually breaking the
scene which was kind of working.
1078
00:48:20,606 --> 00:48:22,233
I guess
that's the usual process,
1079
00:48:22,316 --> 00:48:24,068
and almost every scene does that.
1080
00:48:24,151 --> 00:48:29,573
I think it's our way of
getting really close to the solution,
1081
00:48:29,657 --> 00:48:34,412
and then at 10%, "That's not working.
We'll work on that forever."
1082
00:48:34,495 --> 00:48:38,249
Yeah, sometimes you have
to drive way, way around into the woods
1083
00:48:38,332 --> 00:48:40,459
before you come back
to meet the mainland.
1084
00:48:40,543 --> 00:48:41,978
Oh, we did that
a lot on this movie.
1085
00:48:42,002 --> 00:48:43,212
Oh, boy! Every movie.
1086
00:48:43,295 --> 00:48:45,881
The one thing that changed here
was the fact that Joy,
1087
00:48:45,965 --> 00:48:49,093
she used to just walk off screen
and be on a stage wait a little bit.
1088
00:48:49,176 --> 00:48:53,472
And now she walks off and continues
to try to urge them onward,
1089
00:48:53,556 --> 00:48:54,932
which is her goal.
1090
00:48:55,015 --> 00:48:57,601
"Come on, we got to get to the train.
Come on, Sadness."
1091
00:48:57,685 --> 00:48:59,812
"Don't make him worse.
Don't make him feel worse."
1092
00:48:59,895 --> 00:49:04,275
So, that helps as well.
Really between those two things,
1093
00:49:04,358 --> 00:49:06,986
cutting off Sadness
right there at the end
1094
00:49:07,069 --> 00:49:08,946
and that other adjustment.
1095
00:49:09,029 --> 00:49:10,364
Yes.
1096
00:49:10,448 --> 00:49:13,159
And it's really
quite an emblematic scene
1097
00:49:13,242 --> 00:49:18,622
of what Sadness is effective at
in this world.
1098
00:49:18,706 --> 00:49:21,208
This is the very first time
wherein you can see
1099
00:49:21,292 --> 00:49:25,254
that she's really able to
manifest empathy.
1100
00:49:25,754 --> 00:49:27,566
Ronnie, talk for a minute
about screen direction.
1101
00:49:27,590 --> 00:49:30,634
'Cause as we watch the train here
head towards Headquarters,
1102
00:49:30,718 --> 00:49:33,053
I'm just reminded
of all the backflips we did.
1103
00:49:33,137 --> 00:49:35,598
Because
this world is actually circular,
1104
00:49:35,681 --> 00:49:37,975
and for the longest time,
we were trying to make sure
1105
00:49:38,058 --> 00:49:42,104
that we also know if we're cutting
from this journey to that journey.
1106
00:49:42,605 --> 00:49:46,066
So, Headquarters is always
going to be on screen left for us,
1107
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:51,197
when you were doing story,
just to make sure that that is foolproof.
1108
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:52,490
And then the journey,
1109
00:49:52,573 --> 00:49:55,493
when Joy and Sadness
are thrown out of Headquarters,
1110
00:49:55,576 --> 00:49:57,119
they go towards screen right.
1111
00:49:57,203 --> 00:49:58,555
So, when they have to head back home,
1112
00:49:58,579 --> 00:50:00,348
they have to head back home
towards screen left.
1113
00:50:00,372 --> 00:50:02,412
That's set up
right there in that first shot
1114
00:50:02,625 --> 00:50:04,502
when they first get plonked out
into Long Term.
1115
00:50:04,585 --> 00:50:06,062
They're going the wrong way
1116
00:50:06,086 --> 00:50:08,172
if the characters are going screen right.
1117
00:50:08,255 --> 00:50:12,134
That means that Joy is having to take
the long way to go home.
1118
00:50:12,218 --> 00:50:13,695
Eventually, when they meet Bing Bong,
1119
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,639
Bing Bong actually starts moving them
towards screen left.
1120
00:50:16,722 --> 00:50:18,849
So, every time that
we actually zig and zag,
1121
00:50:18,933 --> 00:50:20,392
it's actually supposed to mean
1122
00:50:20,476 --> 00:50:22,787
that they're either getting closer
or farther away from each other.
1123
00:50:22,811 --> 00:50:26,273
Kevin Nolting, our editor,
thinks we're too persnickety about that.
1124
00:50:26,357 --> 00:50:28,067
- He's right.
- He is right.
1125
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:31,028
But in general, I think
it just helps orient the audience.
1126
00:50:31,111 --> 00:50:33,471
This little bit here, as Fear runs away,
this was boarded...
1127
00:50:34,281 --> 00:50:36,951
Some really funny stuff
that the Story guys came up with,
1128
00:50:37,034 --> 00:50:39,370
and then when we recorded with Bill,
I could tell,
1129
00:50:39,453 --> 00:50:42,122
as he was recording,
he was seeing this all in his head.
1130
00:50:42,206 --> 00:50:44,476
And he was acting it out
just right there in front of the mic.
1131
00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:46,220
- Remember that? He was just like...
- Yeah.
1132
00:50:47,253 --> 00:50:48,963
You know,
all these great sounds.
1133
00:50:49,046 --> 00:50:51,549
And I could see it coming to life
in his brain.
1134
00:50:51,632 --> 00:50:53,610
And so when we animated it,
I just told the animators,
1135
00:50:53,634 --> 00:50:55,427
"Go back, look at that footage of Bill,"
1136
00:50:55,511 --> 00:50:57,447
"and you'll get exactly
what we're talking about."
1137
00:50:57,471 --> 00:51:00,766
I know. Bill seems to
have a mind that's built for cartoons.
1138
00:51:00,849 --> 00:51:02,560
When he's walking around
here at Pixar...
1139
00:51:02,643 --> 00:51:04,120
- He's home.
- He's unfettered.
1140
00:51:04,144 --> 00:51:06,063
And when he's here
in a recording studio,
1141
00:51:06,146 --> 00:51:08,066
it almost feels like
we're giving him these lines
1142
00:51:08,107 --> 00:51:10,818
that seems like it's just not enough
to let him loose.
1143
00:51:10,901 --> 00:51:11,986
Yeah.
1144
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:14,149
- You remember Bill came to Pixar.
- Yes.
1145
00:51:14,697 --> 00:51:18,492
I think he flew himself
to Pixar just to visit.
1146
00:51:18,576 --> 00:51:20,637
- I know.
- Which is kind of... Would he do that?
1147
00:51:20,661 --> 00:51:22,705
I think so.
That was the feeling.
1148
00:51:22,788 --> 00:51:24,641
It felt like he was
just any one of those people
1149
00:51:24,665 --> 00:51:28,252
who wanted to visit Pixar and he...
1150
00:51:28,335 --> 00:51:31,046
I wonder what he would say.
We should just call him.
1151
00:51:31,130 --> 00:51:32,440
You want to just call him
and see what he says?
1152
00:51:32,464 --> 00:51:34,133
Okay, let's call him.
1153
00:51:34,508 --> 00:51:36,228
Hang on a second.
1154
00:51:38,137 --> 00:51:39,888
Hello? Hello.
1155
00:51:39,972 --> 00:51:41,724
- Hello, Bill Hader.
- Yes.
1156
00:51:41,807 --> 00:51:43,642
- This is Pete Docter calling.
- Hey, Pete.
1157
00:51:43,726 --> 00:51:44,977
And Ronnie's here too.
1158
00:51:45,060 --> 00:51:47,438
And right now, we're recording
the director's commentary.
1159
00:51:47,521 --> 00:51:50,107
And we thought,
"We have a couple questions for Bill."
1160
00:51:50,190 --> 00:51:51,775
- Hi, Bill.
- Hi, Ronnie.
1161
00:51:51,859 --> 00:51:53,539
We were just
starting to talk about
1162
00:51:53,569 --> 00:51:55,195
you being a major element in this film
1163
00:51:55,279 --> 00:51:57,489
and remembering you coming to Pixar.
1164
00:51:58,198 --> 00:52:00,618
Why was that?
Did you just want to show up or what?
1165
00:52:00,701 --> 00:52:05,456
Yeah, I'm a big Pixar nerd,
and I asked my agent.
1166
00:52:05,539 --> 00:52:07,333
I had a flight back from LA to New York,
1167
00:52:07,416 --> 00:52:10,461
"and I said," Oh, can I make a quick stop
to San Francisco
1168
00:52:10,544 --> 00:52:12,212
"and just take a tour of Pixar?"
1169
00:52:12,296 --> 00:52:14,632
They said,
"Sorry, Pixar doesn't give tours."
1170
00:52:14,715 --> 00:52:16,026
Yeah, they don't give tours,
1171
00:52:16,050 --> 00:52:17,926
but they were nice enough
to give me a tour.
1172
00:52:18,010 --> 00:52:21,847
And I met you and Jonas.
I met everybody, I think, that trip.
1173
00:52:21,930 --> 00:52:24,808
And we had lunch,
and then they showed me around.
1174
00:52:24,892 --> 00:52:27,561
It was amazing,
and then I thought, "Well, that's that."
1175
00:52:27,645 --> 00:52:31,315
And then I think I extended an invitation
to you and Ronnie
1176
00:52:31,398 --> 00:52:35,361
if you guys ever wanted to come
to SNL and see our creative process.
1177
00:52:35,444 --> 00:52:37,196
'Cause we do a show in a week.
1178
00:52:37,279 --> 00:52:39,341
- And you guys take...
- A little longer, yeah.
1179
00:52:40,616 --> 00:52:42,656
Of course, we said,
"No. Of course not."
1180
00:52:43,619 --> 00:52:44,721
We said, "Watch out.
We're going to take you up on that."
1181
00:52:44,745 --> 00:52:46,997
I remember this one moment,
I was thinking,
1182
00:52:47,081 --> 00:52:50,042
"Okay, I guess he says he's a Pixar fan,
but, well, whatever."
1183
00:52:50,125 --> 00:52:52,485
And then you were talking
and then you interrupted yourself,
1184
00:52:52,544 --> 00:52:54,624
and you're like...
"Is that Ralph Eggleston?"
1185
00:52:54,672 --> 00:52:57,552
Yeah, I saw Ralph Eggleston.I was like, "That's Ralph Eggleston."
1186
00:52:57,591 --> 00:52:59,694
No, you didn't just say,
"Ralph Eggleston."
1187
00:52:59,718 --> 00:53:03,055
I think you rattled off
all of his movie credits right after.
1188
00:53:03,138 --> 00:53:04,741
- That's right.
- In chronology.
1189
00:53:04,765 --> 00:53:07,184
That's how big a nerd you were.
1190
00:53:07,267 --> 00:53:09,978
But then we realized
Bill knows that much about everything.
1191
00:53:10,062 --> 00:53:11,862
One of the other things
I was going to ask is,
1192
00:53:11,939 --> 00:53:14,501
Ronnie and I weren't in the room
with you and Cooley a lot of times.
1193
00:53:14,525 --> 00:53:16,527
But in addition to doing voice work,
1194
00:53:16,610 --> 00:53:18,696
we were able to con you
into doing some writing.
1195
00:53:18,779 --> 00:53:21,174
You didn't have to con me at all.
You said, "Do you want to write?"
1196
00:53:21,198 --> 00:53:23,951
I go, "I can write in a Pixar movie? Yes!"
1197
00:53:24,034 --> 00:53:25,786
All right.
1198
00:53:26,328 --> 00:53:29,415
Just to see the process too,
of how you guys produce stories.
1199
00:53:29,498 --> 00:53:31,726
And now you know the secret
that it's an absolute mess.
1200
00:53:31,750 --> 00:53:33,377
Yeah, it's a mess. No one knows...
1201
00:53:33,460 --> 00:53:35,897
It's just like everywhere.
No one knows what's going on.
1202
00:53:35,921 --> 00:53:39,216
Thank you.
See that? That's amazing.
1203
00:53:39,299 --> 00:53:43,554
We try to tell people that, and they
feel like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, right."
1204
00:53:43,637 --> 00:53:45,889
"You just don't want to talk
about your secrets."
1205
00:53:45,973 --> 00:53:47,533
So you and Cooley, we'd give you
1206
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:49,393
specific sequences to work on, right?
1207
00:53:49,476 --> 00:53:52,146
Yeah, mostly I remember working
on Dream Production.
1208
00:53:52,479 --> 00:53:53,897
That was a big one.
1209
00:53:53,981 --> 00:53:56,150
And then we had written
a whole sequence
1210
00:53:56,233 --> 00:54:00,237
for the clown, where there was
all this dental equipment.
1211
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:01,822
Oh, yeah.
1212
00:54:01,905 --> 00:54:05,075
Sharp objects.
It was a forest of dental equipment.
1213
00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:08,245
Of scrapers and awful dentist things.
1214
00:54:09,163 --> 00:54:10,807
And then there was this thing
where the clown made
1215
00:54:10,831 --> 00:54:12,458
balloon animals that came to life,
1216
00:54:12,541 --> 00:54:14,418
and he sicced them
on Joy and Sadness.
1217
00:54:14,501 --> 00:54:15,812
Yeah,
they were pursued out of there.
1218
00:54:15,836 --> 00:54:18,276
And they ran after them
like it was a pack of balloon animals.
1219
00:54:18,338 --> 00:54:20,716
And then they would get caught
on the dentist equipment.
1220
00:54:20,799 --> 00:54:22,551
- Yes.
- And they would break.
1221
00:54:22,634 --> 00:54:25,321
And then I think we made it so
that Joy purposely steered them there.
1222
00:54:25,345 --> 00:54:26,345
- Right?
- Yeah, yeah.
1223
00:54:26,388 --> 00:54:29,683
Joy purposely ran
through the dentist equipment.
1224
00:54:29,767 --> 00:54:32,936
I remember pitching you guys that,
and you guys went, "Yeah!"
1225
00:54:33,020 --> 00:54:34,855
See, that's a cool idea.
1226
00:54:34,938 --> 00:54:36,583
Is it too late to go back and change that?
1227
00:54:36,607 --> 00:54:38,233
Then I remember
we also had a character
1228
00:54:38,692 --> 00:54:41,528
that was a weird girl from school
that was in her night gear.
1229
00:54:41,612 --> 00:54:42,881
Who sat on the monkey bars.
1230
00:54:42,905 --> 00:54:45,866
Yeah, and she turned around and
looked down, and she just went, "Mine!"
1231
00:54:45,949 --> 00:54:46,950
Yeah.
1232
00:54:48,285 --> 00:54:49,345
- Oh, yes.
- Yeah.
1233
00:54:49,369 --> 00:54:51,997
That was so creepy and scary.
1234
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,082
I remember working on that sequence.
1235
00:54:54,166 --> 00:54:57,961
I actually remember
when I first came in really early on,
1236
00:54:58,045 --> 00:55:02,883
you guys had a version of the movie
where Riley was knocked out.
1237
00:55:03,008 --> 00:55:04,927
- Remember that?
- Yes.
1238
00:55:05,010 --> 00:55:08,764
Yeah, she was out in the woods.
She fell down and she got knocked out.
1239
00:55:08,847 --> 00:55:10,432
It was more about waking her up.
1240
00:55:10,516 --> 00:55:13,769
And I remember us talking about that,
and we were all saying,
1241
00:55:13,852 --> 00:55:17,272
"Well, I'm not really worried about
these emotions in her head."
1242
00:55:17,356 --> 00:55:20,484
"I'm more worried about the young girl
out in the elements"
1243
00:55:20,567 --> 00:55:22,295
"lying unconscious in the woods."
1244
00:55:22,319 --> 00:55:25,359
"I don't know if anybody's gonna really
care about the emotions in her head."
1245
00:55:26,573 --> 00:55:29,409
We were like, "Get her up.
A wolf's going to come and get her."
1246
00:55:29,493 --> 00:55:31,495
I remember that went out the window.
1247
00:55:31,578 --> 00:55:34,665
It was so cool for me
to be able to get a sequence,
1248
00:55:34,748 --> 00:55:36,208
then we would talk it through.
1249
00:55:36,291 --> 00:55:40,087
And then having Cooley there
who also has such a great story brain,
1250
00:55:40,170 --> 00:55:41,797
and Ronnie does... You guys all do.
1251
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,423
I can't draw to save my life.
1252
00:55:43,507 --> 00:55:46,176
But just how quickly
they put up boards.
1253
00:55:46,260 --> 00:55:49,263
Just the immediacy
of visual storytelling like that.
1254
00:55:49,346 --> 00:55:51,682
Where I would go,
"You know, it's kind of like..."
1255
00:55:51,765 --> 00:55:54,768
"You know these
kind of dentist equipment?"
1256
00:55:54,852 --> 00:55:57,145
And then Cooley is looking at me
while he's drawing,
1257
00:55:57,229 --> 00:56:00,440
"Uh-huh! Is it something like that?"
I'm like, "Exactly. Exactly like that."
1258
00:56:02,067 --> 00:56:05,320
That was such a cool experience.
1259
00:56:05,404 --> 00:56:08,282
Well, I was going to say
all these ideas sound great,
1260
00:56:08,365 --> 00:56:11,410
and why did we cut them?
But not all of them were great, I guess.
1261
00:56:12,327 --> 00:56:13,346
No. That's the other thing you learn,
1262
00:56:13,370 --> 00:56:15,455
is that you got to stay
with the main characters
1263
00:56:15,539 --> 00:56:17,207
and kind of what they're doing.
1264
00:56:17,291 --> 00:56:21,503
You can't get bogged down
in all these other things.
1265
00:56:21,587 --> 00:56:24,590
All they care about is Joy and Sadness.
1266
00:56:24,673 --> 00:56:27,217
Yeah, and that was actually
why we initially were like,
1267
00:56:27,301 --> 00:56:30,220
"We got to get Bill."
'Cause you do such great characters.
1268
00:56:30,304 --> 00:56:32,615
I think that was one of the first things
we plumbed your brain for,
1269
00:56:32,639 --> 00:56:33,849
is like, who is Sadness and...
1270
00:56:33,932 --> 00:56:35,142
Oh, right.
1271
00:56:35,225 --> 00:56:36,744
- Remember I did all the characters?
- Yeah.
1272
00:56:36,768 --> 00:56:38,687
You guys put me in the studio
and you said,
1273
00:56:38,770 --> 00:56:40,480
"What would a Sadness person
sound like?"
1274
00:56:40,564 --> 00:56:42,274
Yeah, I did 'em all.
1275
00:56:42,357 --> 00:56:45,152
"Oh, it's so bad..." That...
1276
00:56:45,235 --> 00:56:48,488
For a long time,
that's what Sadness sounded like.
1277
00:56:50,657 --> 00:56:53,660
Gosh! My oldest daughter was one,
so that was four or five years ago.
1278
00:56:53,744 --> 00:56:55,454
Yeah.
1279
00:56:55,537 --> 00:56:58,081
- It's been a long road.
- It's been a long road but it was fun.
1280
00:56:58,165 --> 00:57:01,084
And you guys came to SNL
and you guys watched us,
1281
00:57:01,168 --> 00:57:04,254
and you sat in the rewrite table,
at the table-read.
1282
00:57:04,338 --> 00:57:05,648
- Yeah, we did.
- Yes.
1283
00:57:05,672 --> 00:57:08,592
I remember you guys sitting there,
watching us shoot.
1284
00:57:08,675 --> 00:57:14,222
Going into where the director is
in the booth, and all these things.
1285
00:57:14,306 --> 00:57:16,016
And then when you watch
Dream Production,
1286
00:57:16,099 --> 00:57:17,160
a lot of that ends up in there.
1287
00:57:17,184 --> 00:57:18,184
Yeah.
1288
00:57:18,310 --> 00:57:19,728
- Yeah, we even did the...
- Cards.
1289
00:57:19,811 --> 00:57:21,497
The cards,
which I guess you guys said
1290
00:57:21,521 --> 00:57:25,359
nobody else really does cue cards
with actual physical cards anymore.
1291
00:57:25,442 --> 00:57:27,611
- Yeah.
- But we put that in.
1292
00:57:27,694 --> 00:57:29,780
We got to sit
and watch the writers sweat
1293
00:57:29,863 --> 00:57:32,324
as they perform the skits.
1294
00:57:32,407 --> 00:57:35,285
Yeah, it was
a great learning experience.
1295
00:57:35,369 --> 00:57:38,288
We actually were so inspired
that when we came back,
1296
00:57:38,372 --> 00:57:40,582
we actually had a lot of that glow
1297
00:57:40,666 --> 00:57:44,586
of having been in SNL
and how they create.
1298
00:57:44,670 --> 00:57:47,339
And you're right,
there was a lot of the cues, too.
1299
00:57:47,422 --> 00:57:50,634
When we have a Dream Production,
1300
00:57:50,717 --> 00:57:53,553
the makeup people
that you were riffing that
1301
00:57:53,637 --> 00:57:55,681
the director would say,
"Okay, we're ready."
1302
00:57:55,764 --> 00:57:56,848
"Makeup, get out of there."
1303
00:57:56,932 --> 00:57:59,226
That's all from you just workshopping.
1304
00:57:59,309 --> 00:58:01,853
And we had to put it in.
It felt so natural.
1305
00:58:01,937 --> 00:58:04,207
'Cause watching you go
from one sketch to another,
1306
00:58:04,231 --> 00:58:06,149
it would be like
an entire wardrobe change,
1307
00:58:06,233 --> 00:58:07,985
new hair, new everything.
1308
00:58:08,068 --> 00:58:10,737
And 14 seconds later,
blam, you're in somewhere else.
1309
00:58:10,821 --> 00:58:12,197
Also, you have SNL...
1310
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,993
Paula Pell,
as the voice of the director, right?
1311
00:58:16,076 --> 00:58:18,912
Paula Pell is one of
the great SNL writers
1312
00:58:18,996 --> 00:58:21,123
and one of
the loveliest people on earth.
1313
00:58:21,206 --> 00:58:23,046
Yeah, Amy suggested,
when we asked her,
1314
00:58:23,125 --> 00:58:25,002
"Who should we get to play
the director?"
1315
00:58:25,085 --> 00:58:28,255
I think pretty immediately
she was like, "Paula."
1316
00:58:28,338 --> 00:58:30,799
Paula is amazing. I think all of us just...
1317
00:58:30,882 --> 00:58:35,012
If we could put Paula in every project,
we would. She's great.
1318
00:58:35,095 --> 00:58:39,516
She's one of the...In the Mount Rushmore of SNL writers.
1319
00:58:39,599 --> 00:58:41,810
She would be
on the cliff, chiseled in.
1320
00:58:41,893 --> 00:58:43,645
Yes, she'd be chiseled in
1321
00:58:43,729 --> 00:58:45,814
right next to Jim Downey
and people like that.
1322
00:58:45,897 --> 00:58:46,940
Cool.
1323
00:58:47,024 --> 00:58:49,693
All right, well, thanks, Bill.
We won't take any more of your time.
1324
00:58:49,776 --> 00:58:51,695
- Thanks, guys.
- Cool.
1325
00:58:51,778 --> 00:58:53,698
- I'll talk to you guys later.
- See you.
1326
00:58:55,198 --> 00:58:58,368
So, obviously, the music
was a huge part of the film as well.
1327
00:58:58,452 --> 00:59:00,871
And working with Michael,
as we had on Up,
1328
00:59:00,954 --> 00:59:02,831
was an absolute joy.
1329
00:59:02,914 --> 00:59:05,375
- It's a dream.
- He's great to work with.
1330
00:59:05,459 --> 00:59:08,336
And just watching his process
is really cool.
1331
00:59:08,420 --> 00:59:11,048
In fact, why don't we give him a call too?
1332
00:59:11,131 --> 00:59:12,775
Really?
Let's call him. Let's call him.
1333
00:59:12,799 --> 00:59:14,801
He can speak for himself
about the process.
1334
00:59:14,885 --> 00:59:16,053
It will be fun.
1335
00:59:16,136 --> 00:59:17,447
Here, I think I have his number.
1336
00:59:23,810 --> 00:59:26,521
He's probably going,
"What number is that?"
1337
00:59:26,605 --> 00:59:28,273
"I'm not answering that phone."
1338
00:59:30,067 --> 00:59:31,961
You've reached the office
of Michael Giacchino.
1339
00:59:31,985 --> 00:59:34,029
We're not able to answer
the phone right now.
1340
00:59:34,112 --> 00:59:35,465
So, if you'll please leave us a message,
1341
00:59:35,489 --> 00:59:37,616
we'll return your call
as soon as possible.
1342
00:59:37,699 --> 00:59:41,328
If this is an emergency, you can
contact Michael's assistant David.
1343
00:59:41,411 --> 00:59:43,806
Well, I guess he wasn't there.
Hey, Michael, this is Pete.
1344
00:59:43,830 --> 00:59:46,500
We were just making the commentary
for the DVD
1345
00:59:46,583 --> 00:59:48,835
and thought we'd give you a call
and talk about it,
1346
00:59:48,919 --> 00:59:50,337
but you're not there.
1347
00:59:50,420 --> 00:59:54,883
So, now we have your
voicemail. All right, see you. Bye.
1348
00:59:54,966 --> 00:59:56,676
All right, so he wasn't there.
1349
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,262
I think it's because
I think you owe him money.
1350
00:59:59,346 --> 01:00:03,308
I made him mad?
He's not taking my call.
1351
01:00:14,528 --> 01:00:17,197
So, this is where Anger, of course,
plugs that idea in.
1352
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:18,448
I had one pass where
1353
01:00:18,532 --> 01:00:20,676
the first time he thought of it
was when he plugged it in.
1354
01:00:20,700 --> 01:00:22,661
Yeah, yeah,
it used to happen quicker.
1355
01:00:22,744 --> 01:00:25,747
But the tension and the escalation,
we didn't feel it.
1356
01:00:25,831 --> 01:00:27,999
That's why we had to parse it out
a little more.
1357
01:00:28,083 --> 01:00:30,520
The other thing we realized,
"Well, if this is the threat,"
1358
01:00:30,544 --> 01:00:34,131
"if Riley's personality
and Riley's safety is what's at stake,"
1359
01:00:34,214 --> 01:00:37,092
"let's introduce that threat
earlier in Act 2"
1360
01:00:37,175 --> 01:00:40,762
"and use it as kind of
a Sword of Damocles hanging over us."
1361
01:00:40,846 --> 01:00:42,657
For the longest time,
we were trying to find out
1362
01:00:42,681 --> 01:00:44,700
what was the worst thing
that could happen to Riley.
1363
01:00:44,724 --> 01:00:47,769
We went, "Well, she could be
actually knocked out"
1364
01:00:47,853 --> 01:00:50,147
"or she could get lost somewhere."
1365
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:52,708
Eventually, we landed on the fact
that the worst thing that could happen
1366
01:00:52,732 --> 01:00:54,377
is if she actually
just wanted to run away.
1367
01:00:54,401 --> 01:00:57,571
We had that idea early
but we doubted that it would be enough.
1368
01:00:57,654 --> 01:00:58,798
Well, the reason I think was.
1369
01:00:58,822 --> 01:01:00,907
Joy and Sadness
are the protagonists of this thing.
1370
01:01:00,991 --> 01:01:02,576
Joy being the protagonist that is.
1371
01:01:02,659 --> 01:01:06,746
So, if Riley is in physical danger,
Joy has no power, right?
1372
01:01:06,830 --> 01:01:08,206
She can't affect that at all.
1373
01:01:08,290 --> 01:01:10,333
So, we have to somehow
design this in a way
1374
01:01:10,417 --> 01:01:12,210
that the emotions
can come to the rescue
1375
01:01:12,294 --> 01:01:13,837
and save this kid.
1376
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:15,815
Rather than
putting her in physical danger,
1377
01:01:15,839 --> 01:01:17,674
we wanted to make it
an emotional choice.
1378
01:01:18,466 --> 01:01:21,136
Or the reason that
all of these things are going wrong
1379
01:01:21,219 --> 01:01:23,847
is because Joy and Sadness
are not back in Headquarters.
1380
01:01:23,930 --> 01:01:27,350
If only they were back in Headquarters,
things would turn around.
1381
01:01:27,434 --> 01:01:28,911
So, there
they go off to screen left.
1382
01:01:28,935 --> 01:01:30,645
This déjà vu gag was something
1383
01:01:30,729 --> 01:01:33,398
that we wrote originally
for elsewhere in the film.
1384
01:01:33,481 --> 01:01:35,525
But we needed some sort of levity here
1385
01:01:35,609 --> 01:01:38,195
because we had
some large stretches of dark stuff.
1386
01:01:38,278 --> 01:01:40,423
I just relocated it,
and it seemed to work pretty well.
1387
01:01:40,447 --> 01:01:41,549
It works much better here.
1388
01:01:41,573 --> 01:01:44,534
This sequence, this was born
out of the Memory Dump.
1389
01:01:44,618 --> 01:01:47,537
So, this is just another example
of how everything jumps around,
1390
01:01:47,621 --> 01:01:49,501
like you don't just move forward
through a film.
1391
01:01:49,581 --> 01:01:52,250
And interestingly, this sequence
in the Memory Dump
1392
01:01:52,334 --> 01:01:54,419
was there from the very, very beginning
1393
01:01:54,502 --> 01:01:56,838
as a placeholder of what would happen.
1394
01:01:56,922 --> 01:01:59,549
Joy needed to have an epiphany
and learn something deep,
1395
01:01:59,633 --> 01:02:03,178
but it was never really clear what it was
that she was learning or how.
1396
01:02:03,261 --> 01:02:07,057
It wasn't till pretty late that Ronnie
went off and reboarded that.
1397
01:02:07,140 --> 01:02:10,143
As a part of that, you went backwards
to this scene to say...
1398
01:02:10,227 --> 01:02:13,438
This is setting up this idea
of the twisty tree and Joy loves it,
1399
01:02:13,521 --> 01:02:16,274
which we're then going to come back to
and understand why.
1400
01:02:16,358 --> 01:02:17,960
This is the way we make movies.
1401
01:02:17,984 --> 01:02:21,363
We arrive at the dark night
of the soul of Joy
1402
01:02:21,446 --> 01:02:24,199
coming to terms
with learning what's really important.
1403
01:02:24,282 --> 01:02:26,868
But we also try to solve all of it
in that one sequence.
1404
01:02:26,952 --> 01:02:30,372
Because it was like,
"Oh, my God. This is going to work."
1405
01:02:30,455 --> 01:02:34,042
But people were wondering, "Well,
it feels like that would be the solution"
1406
01:02:34,125 --> 01:02:36,878
"but we didn't earn
that solution just yet."
1407
01:02:36,962 --> 01:02:40,757
So that's why it's like, "Oh, where can
we find ways to plant the seed"
1408
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:43,677
"of where her epiphany would begin?"
1409
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:45,947
This beat here
where Riley steals the credit card
1410
01:02:45,971 --> 01:02:47,430
is our tribute to Hitchcock.
1411
01:02:47,514 --> 01:02:48,974
When we were making it,
1412
01:02:49,057 --> 01:02:51,184
it felt like it needed a lot more tension.
1413
01:02:51,268 --> 01:02:53,228
And I'm such a big fan of Hitchcock,
1414
01:02:53,311 --> 01:02:56,940
specifically the scenes in Marnie
when she's stealing from the safe.
1415
01:02:57,023 --> 01:02:58,400
And the cleaning lady comes in.
1416
01:02:58,483 --> 01:02:59,543
I remember you
talking about that.
1417
01:02:59,567 --> 01:03:01,987
So, we kind of
made room for it to be
1418
01:03:02,070 --> 01:03:03,321
that kind of tension of like,
1419
01:03:03,405 --> 01:03:05,073
"Will she get caught?"
1420
01:03:05,156 --> 01:03:07,917
There's really an interesting
lesson when we were mixing this.
1421
01:03:07,993 --> 01:03:10,829
On a gut instinct I said,
"Bring the music way back."
1422
01:03:10,912 --> 01:03:14,124
"And bring all the little creaks and pops,
things you think of as Foley,"
1423
01:03:14,207 --> 01:03:16,251
"bring that all forward
because that's the way..."
1424
01:03:16,334 --> 01:03:19,504
When you're sneaking around,
you're hyper-attuned, hyperaware.
1425
01:03:19,587 --> 01:03:22,173
And that really, to me,
made the tension ratchet up.
1426
01:03:22,257 --> 01:03:24,538
- Yeah, it worked.
- Which is pretty cool.
1427
01:03:26,803 --> 01:03:30,348
The Train of Thought derailing was...
1428
01:03:30,432 --> 01:03:32,642
I tried forever to get
a joke in there of...
1429
01:03:32,726 --> 01:03:35,562
Like cutting to Riley
in the middle of saying something
1430
01:03:35,645 --> 01:03:38,565
and then,
"I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought."
1431
01:03:38,648 --> 01:03:41,151
But it just felt like the wrong place.
1432
01:03:41,234 --> 01:03:42,753
Because it was
a high drama moment.
1433
01:03:42,777 --> 01:03:44,988
But if it wasn't quite like that,
it would have worked.
1434
01:03:45,071 --> 01:03:46,072
Yeah.
1435
01:04:09,554 --> 01:04:12,682
This piece right here is this great piece
of music by Michael Giacchino.
1436
01:04:12,766 --> 01:04:15,977
And I remember talking to him about
1437
01:04:16,061 --> 01:04:19,606
this repeating phrase
that just drives this whole sequence.
1438
01:04:25,695 --> 01:04:28,090
And he was saying, "Well,
you know how when you're exercising"
1439
01:04:28,114 --> 01:04:30,700
"or really focused for some reason,"
1440
01:04:30,784 --> 01:04:34,037
"you kind of get this one piece
of music caught in your head"
1441
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:35,240
"and it loops and it loops."
1442
01:04:35,288 --> 01:04:37,916
And so it's very psychologically based,
I thought.
1443
01:04:37,999 --> 01:04:39,459
It's pretty neat.
1444
01:04:43,296 --> 01:04:46,508
And it does a great job
of driving this whole sequence
1445
01:04:46,591 --> 01:04:47,801
as Riley is now running away,
1446
01:04:47,884 --> 01:04:50,762
the worst thing possible
for our characters.
1447
01:04:50,845 --> 01:04:52,972
They're trying to stop her
from doing that,
1448
01:04:53,056 --> 01:04:55,100
but obviously, it doesn't work out.
1449
01:05:17,122 --> 01:05:21,459
This was another scene that took
a lot of redoing, like all of them.
1450
01:05:21,543 --> 01:05:25,004
But we're focusing on the ones
that seemed especially hard to crack.
1451
01:05:26,339 --> 01:05:27,525
How do I put this?
1452
01:05:27,549 --> 01:05:30,093
- Because it's difficult, it's painful.
- Yeah, yeah.
1453
01:05:30,176 --> 01:05:32,387
Because we did it
over and over again,
1454
01:05:32,470 --> 01:05:34,722
we knew what it needed to do.
1455
01:05:34,806 --> 01:05:37,684
This was going to be Joy choosing...
1456
01:05:37,767 --> 01:05:39,602
- She's actually backsliding.
- Yeah.
1457
01:05:39,686 --> 01:05:42,447
When she's starting
to actually relate to Sadness already,
1458
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,483
things are seemingly working
between them, the duo,
1459
01:05:45,567 --> 01:05:48,236
she reverts to
a former version of herself,
1460
01:05:48,319 --> 01:05:50,613
that one that chooses poorly.
1461
01:05:50,697 --> 01:05:52,866
You're right, Pete.
We did it over and over again.
1462
01:05:52,949 --> 01:05:56,744
And I think it worked in various ways,
but towards the end,
1463
01:05:56,828 --> 01:05:58,955
we wanted to make sure that it's ironclad
1464
01:05:59,038 --> 01:06:02,917
that she makes the worst decision
at the wrong time.
1465
01:06:03,001 --> 01:06:05,563
At some point, we sort of
realized it was a mechanical problem.
1466
01:06:05,587 --> 01:06:08,673
We need to design something
that does not allow Sadness and Joy
1467
01:06:08,756 --> 01:06:11,801
to fit into the same space
without changing the memories.
1468
01:06:11,885 --> 01:06:13,386
So, Joy has to choose.
1469
01:06:13,470 --> 01:06:16,431
"Do I either bring my friend up
and change Riley?"
1470
01:06:16,514 --> 01:06:19,517
"Or do I preserve Riley
and abandon my friend?"
1471
01:06:19,601 --> 01:06:22,145
And, of course,
she then chooses poorly.
1472
01:06:22,228 --> 01:06:23,980
Riley walks out into the fog.
1473
01:06:24,063 --> 01:06:26,816
I remember Ralph Eggleston,
our production designer,
1474
01:06:27,358 --> 01:06:31,321
having a couple ideas of how to connect
the real world and the Mind World.
1475
01:06:31,404 --> 01:06:34,991
And fog was another of those
that just feels very psychological.
1476
01:06:35,074 --> 01:06:39,662
And it was inherent in San Francisco
that this fog would be across the city
1477
01:06:39,746 --> 01:06:42,957
that would kind of equate to
what's going on in Riley's head.
1478
01:06:43,041 --> 01:06:45,201
- The fog of the mind.
- Yeah, exactly.
1479
01:06:45,919 --> 01:06:47,670
All right, so now the Memory Dump.
1480
01:06:47,754 --> 01:06:49,899
One of the first pieces of artwork
I remember you doing
1481
01:06:49,923 --> 01:06:53,676
was that one of Joy standing there,
and it's blue-green
1482
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,429
as all the memories are falling
into the Memory Dump.
1483
01:06:56,513 --> 01:06:57,907
- Remember this?
- Yes, yes.
1484
01:06:57,931 --> 01:07:00,475
This is going back in time
1485
01:07:00,558 --> 01:07:02,685
when Pete and I
were the only people in production.
1486
01:07:02,769 --> 01:07:05,146
Actually back then,
we wanted to find a way,
1487
01:07:05,230 --> 01:07:07,607
maybe Riley herself
can be in the journey.
1488
01:07:07,690 --> 01:07:10,235
- And we had versions of that too.
- Yeah.
1489
01:07:10,318 --> 01:07:12,779
But our process, between Pete and I, is
1490
01:07:12,862 --> 01:07:15,657
we will talk about things
and then I would draw something.
1491
01:07:15,740 --> 01:07:18,260
Or I would talk about something
and Pete would suggest something
1492
01:07:18,326 --> 01:07:21,829
that makes me think of these pictures
and these images.
1493
01:07:21,913 --> 01:07:25,458
And that was one of those things
that made us think about
1494
01:07:25,542 --> 01:07:29,712
how we can isolate Joy
in a desolate place,
1495
01:07:29,796 --> 01:07:33,216
that also brings in this rain of memories
1496
01:07:33,299 --> 01:07:35,552
that's coming from the sky.
1497
01:07:35,635 --> 01:07:38,763
Yeah, and I think
the point there was, just emotionally,
1498
01:07:38,846 --> 01:07:40,640
in this world of the mind,
1499
01:07:40,765 --> 01:07:43,017
the concept of memories
being forgotten
1500
01:07:43,101 --> 01:07:47,230
just seemed very potent
and something to mess with.
1501
01:07:47,522 --> 01:07:51,025
And that all, of course,
comes from Pete's observations
1502
01:07:51,109 --> 01:07:52,902
of his daughter changing.
1503
01:07:52,986 --> 01:07:57,073
You would talk about looking at pictures
of them when they were younger.
1504
01:07:57,156 --> 01:07:58,408
Yeah.
1505
01:07:58,491 --> 01:08:00,469
And...
"Aw, they were so cute back then."
1506
01:08:00,493 --> 01:08:02,221
Yeah, kind of
breaks your heart in a way.
1507
01:08:02,245 --> 01:08:04,581
Right? I remember
when you talk about that,
1508
01:08:04,664 --> 01:08:06,791
it reminds me of my kids too.
1509
01:08:06,874 --> 01:08:08,185
And sort of like, yeah, you're right,
1510
01:08:08,209 --> 01:08:10,878
because there would be
like a stretch of just weeks
1511
01:08:10,962 --> 01:08:12,922
wherein they already look different.
1512
01:08:13,006 --> 01:08:15,925
And then you as a parent start thinking,
1513
01:08:16,009 --> 01:08:18,428
it's like, "Wait, I don't think
I'm paying attention enough."
1514
01:08:18,511 --> 01:08:21,222
"They're growing up,
and I didn't notice them change."
1515
01:08:21,306 --> 01:08:22,765
Yeah.
1516
01:08:24,309 --> 01:08:28,563
This is what turned out to be
the longest shot in the film.
1517
01:08:28,646 --> 01:08:29,856
It was one of the very last.
1518
01:08:29,981 --> 01:08:32,358
In fact, I think it was
the last shot to be final,
1519
01:08:32,442 --> 01:08:36,237
because this sequence, even though
it was there from the very beginning,
1520
01:08:36,321 --> 01:08:39,866
came under a lot of scrutiny
of how heavy do we get,
1521
01:08:39,949 --> 01:08:41,117
how long is it.
1522
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:42,720
And so, there was
a lot of back and forth.
1523
01:08:42,744 --> 01:08:46,039
We animated all around this shot,
this one shot.
1524
01:08:46,122 --> 01:08:49,751
Because it was a lot of debate
about how deep should we get.
1525
01:08:49,834 --> 01:08:53,796
How long should we allow her
to sit there and reminisce,
1526
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:56,841
and how to make it
the most emotional that it could be.
1527
01:08:56,924 --> 01:09:01,471
So it really only crystallized
at the very, very end of production,
1528
01:09:01,554 --> 01:09:04,390
and then, of course, the animators
had to crank through it.
1529
01:09:04,474 --> 01:09:06,559
And it really, well, the good thing was
1530
01:09:06,643 --> 01:09:09,312
it forced us to really
break down the beats.
1531
01:09:09,395 --> 01:09:12,774
So if you look at any animated shot,
I like to think of it in beats.
1532
01:09:12,857 --> 01:09:17,487
So you have these very clear phrases
of what's going on throughout the shot,
1533
01:09:17,570 --> 01:09:19,656
and you can break it down
and talk about each beat
1534
01:09:19,739 --> 01:09:21,050
and what's emotionally important,
1535
01:09:21,074 --> 01:09:23,910
and then what brings you
to the next beat and so on.
1536
01:09:23,993 --> 01:09:27,705
So, the animator did a fantastic job
of making that all very clear,
1537
01:09:27,789 --> 01:09:29,332
and of course Amy's performance.
1538
01:09:29,415 --> 01:09:33,002
I remember, for this sequence,
we turned the lights down,
1539
01:09:33,086 --> 01:09:36,506
we cleared the room out,
and we talked a lot about her kids.
1540
01:09:36,589 --> 01:09:40,176
And watching them grow up,
and kind of getting her in the mood.
1541
01:09:40,259 --> 01:09:42,303
And she did it a couple of times.
1542
01:09:42,387 --> 01:09:44,639
And I kind of felt bad but I said,
1543
01:09:44,722 --> 01:09:48,476
"I'm not quite buying it yet,
can you just really go for it?"
1544
01:09:48,559 --> 01:09:49,602
And she said, "Okay."
1545
01:09:49,686 --> 01:09:53,398
And she took a moment and she
gave us this great, great performance,
1546
01:09:53,481 --> 01:09:55,692
which just makes me cry
even just to think about it.
1547
01:09:55,775 --> 01:09:57,860
Amazing, amazing.
Actually we'd done
1548
01:09:57,944 --> 01:10:00,196
many attempts of this very sad moment.
1549
01:10:00,279 --> 01:10:04,492
And each time when she gets to it,
she starts tearing up.
1550
01:10:04,575 --> 01:10:06,703
And it makes me tear up.
1551
01:10:06,786 --> 01:10:08,538
Yeah, and all the specifics of,
1552
01:10:08,621 --> 01:10:11,301
"Do you remember when she used to
stick her tongue out" and whatnot,
1553
01:10:11,332 --> 01:10:12,625
those all came from...
1554
01:10:12,709 --> 01:10:17,130
I think we learned on Up that the more
specific and truthful you can be,
1555
01:10:17,213 --> 01:10:19,048
the more meaningful the scene will be.
1556
01:10:19,132 --> 01:10:22,093
So that's... My daughter would stick
her tongue out when she was coloring,
1557
01:10:22,176 --> 01:10:24,321
and so those were all kind of things
that we pulled from.
1558
01:10:24,345 --> 01:10:27,056
I know, all of our
family stories are somehow nested
1559
01:10:27,140 --> 01:10:28,224
in all these sequences.
1560
01:10:28,307 --> 01:10:29,785
Yeah, that's true.
The Sadness voiceover,
1561
01:10:29,809 --> 01:10:31,829
I remember that was something
that you added, Ronnie,
1562
01:10:31,853 --> 01:10:34,772
and bridging back to that scene
in the train...
1563
01:10:34,856 --> 01:10:36,125
Yeah, that's always fun.
1564
01:10:36,149 --> 01:10:37,793
When Pete and I were
working together, we would be,
1565
01:10:37,817 --> 01:10:41,320
just to push production
outside of our rooms,
1566
01:10:41,404 --> 01:10:43,197
we'd just go and hole up,
1567
01:10:43,281 --> 01:10:45,867
and we're trying to
make these elements play...
1568
01:10:45,950 --> 01:10:46,951
Yeah.
1569
01:10:47,034 --> 01:10:48,303
And when
we're pitching to each other,
1570
01:10:48,327 --> 01:10:51,831
these kinds of epiphanies
and solutions show up.
1571
01:10:51,914 --> 01:10:54,333
Because the pressure of production
is like just at bay,
1572
01:10:54,417 --> 01:10:55,978
"We have half an hour,
let's work on this."
1573
01:10:56,002 --> 01:10:57,003
"Yeah, go, go."
1574
01:10:57,086 --> 01:10:58,897
And then
kind of stepped to the left
1575
01:10:58,921 --> 01:10:59,982
and to the right of something,
1576
01:11:00,006 --> 01:11:02,383
and then, "Oh, wait. What did you say?"
1577
01:11:02,467 --> 01:11:03,467
And then, "Yeah."
1578
01:11:03,509 --> 01:11:06,262
And it's, a lot of it is somehow
yearning for something.
1579
01:11:06,345 --> 01:11:07,346
Yeah.
1580
01:11:07,430 --> 01:11:09,766
I remember
that I wished that Joy
1581
01:11:09,849 --> 01:11:14,896
could hear again
what Sadness had said.
1582
01:11:14,979 --> 01:11:15,979
Mmm-hmm.
1583
01:11:16,230 --> 01:11:18,733
I wished that she could hear...
1584
01:11:18,816 --> 01:11:20,860
Oh, so that's what
brought that idea out?
1585
01:11:20,943 --> 01:11:23,380
It's kind of like those
conversations you have with people,
1586
01:11:23,404 --> 01:11:26,449
you're kind of like,
your ears are taking the data in,
1587
01:11:26,532 --> 01:11:27,992
but it's not really sinking in.
1588
01:11:28,075 --> 01:11:29,970
- Yeah, I know what you mean.
- Right? So.
1589
01:11:29,994 --> 01:11:34,332
And this is the only time
it actually comes home for her.
1590
01:11:34,415 --> 01:11:35,815
Yeah.
1591
01:11:36,209 --> 01:11:37,519
"This is what she meant."
1592
01:11:37,543 --> 01:11:38,544
Yeah.
1593
01:11:45,426 --> 01:11:49,180
This cue was one of the very few
that we redid.
1594
01:11:49,263 --> 01:11:52,558
I think Michael originally wrote it
a little more peppy and upbeat.
1595
01:11:53,059 --> 01:11:55,520
Not that it's not peppy,
it has a great energy to it now.
1596
01:11:55,603 --> 01:11:58,064
But I think it was basically
the same thing in a major key,
1597
01:11:58,147 --> 01:12:01,150
so it felt like, "Hey, we're gonna
make it!" from the get-go.
1598
01:12:01,234 --> 01:12:03,986
And so we went back
and redid it in a minor key
1599
01:12:04,070 --> 01:12:06,447
so as to imply like,
"We may not make it."
1600
01:12:06,531 --> 01:12:07,698
Yes.
1601
01:12:08,491 --> 01:12:11,869
- And Bing Bong disappearing...
- Mmm-hmm.
1602
01:12:11,953 --> 01:12:14,205
Is one of those thematic things
1603
01:12:14,288 --> 01:12:16,791
that we wanted from the beginning.
1604
01:12:16,874 --> 01:12:20,294
Because he is that symbol of childhood
1605
01:12:20,378 --> 01:12:21,838
that is fading away.
1606
01:12:21,921 --> 01:12:24,507
He's already an out-of-work
imaginary friend.
1607
01:12:24,590 --> 01:12:27,343
- He doesn't have a role in Riley's life.
- Yeah.
1608
01:12:27,426 --> 01:12:30,513
And here he is,
in the worst place in the mind,
1609
01:12:30,596 --> 01:12:33,766
wherein if you're in there,
you are gonna disappear.
1610
01:12:33,850 --> 01:12:37,436
And this is the last moment
that he's gonna be solid.
1611
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,356
And it's his chance
to be back with Riley
1612
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:42,608
in a way that
you wouldn't have thought of.
1613
01:12:42,692 --> 01:12:44,527
Like, it's his way to save Riley,
1614
01:12:44,610 --> 01:12:47,363
like, his sacrifice is
what gets Joy back up there.
1615
01:12:47,446 --> 01:12:51,200
We know that Riley's gonna be okay,
and when he disappears...
1616
01:12:51,284 --> 01:12:52,594
I remember,
this is one of those moments
1617
01:12:52,618 --> 01:12:54,036
that you live for in this business.
1618
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:55,760
Because so much of it, believe it or not,
1619
01:12:55,830 --> 01:12:59,876
so much of what we do
is work, work, work,
1620
01:12:59,959 --> 01:13:01,919
and drudgery a little bit.
1621
01:13:02,003 --> 01:13:04,883
But once in a while, you have these
moments where you look at each other,
1622
01:13:04,922 --> 01:13:06,525
and you're kind of
completing each other's sentences,
1623
01:13:06,549 --> 01:13:07,651
and you're so excited about,
1624
01:13:07,675 --> 01:13:10,344
"Oh, my gosh, we have this character
who represents childhood."
1625
01:13:10,428 --> 01:13:13,097
"Of course he needs to disappear
just like childhood does,"
1626
01:13:13,180 --> 01:13:15,391
"and it's all symbolic,
and, yeah, perfect!"
1627
01:13:15,474 --> 01:13:16,767
And I knew this would be...
1628
01:13:16,851 --> 01:13:19,312
Well, I hoped that
it would be emotional for people.
1629
01:13:19,395 --> 01:13:21,555
And sure enough, I mean,
we've had a lot of people say,
1630
01:13:21,606 --> 01:13:24,358
"Isn't there some way to maybe
bring Bing Bong back at the end?"
1631
01:13:24,442 --> 01:13:27,278
"'Cause we don't like
that he disappears, he's so sad..."
1632
01:13:27,361 --> 01:13:30,615
Like, "Well, childhood can't come back
so he has to die."
1633
01:13:30,698 --> 01:13:31,925
Yes.
1634
01:13:31,949 --> 01:13:33,427
- We like to torture people.
- Yeah.
1635
01:13:33,451 --> 01:13:35,178
No, actually,
Pete, this moment was
1636
01:13:35,202 --> 01:13:37,330
working very well when he disappears,
1637
01:13:37,413 --> 01:13:38,789
when he actually does.
1638
01:13:38,873 --> 01:13:41,073
- Back then, we had him do a somersault.
- Yeah!
1639
01:13:41,334 --> 01:13:43,103
And he was
very high-energy and peppy.
1640
01:13:43,127 --> 01:13:46,422
And then he waves silently
and disappears.
1641
01:13:46,505 --> 01:13:51,260
And then you had put in another recall
1642
01:13:51,344 --> 01:13:55,681
of what he wanted to do
when he gets back, with Riley.
1643
01:13:56,098 --> 01:13:58,434
His hopes. And he knows
he's not gonna be able to do it,
1644
01:13:58,517 --> 01:13:59,769
so you put in that line.
1645
01:13:59,852 --> 01:14:02,855
He's saying, he's like,
"Well, take her to the moon for me."
1646
01:14:02,939 --> 01:14:04,690
Which, to me, kind of says,
1647
01:14:04,774 --> 01:14:07,568
"Make sure she has a little bit
of childhood as she grows up."
1648
01:14:07,652 --> 01:14:10,029
- You know? "Hang on to that."
- I know. I know.
1649
01:14:10,112 --> 01:14:11,697
That was perfect.
1650
01:14:13,199 --> 01:14:16,994
And I know that people, their heart
breaks a little bit when they see that.
1651
01:14:17,078 --> 01:14:19,664
"Oh, no! I love Bing Bong."
1652
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,686
So then
we're into the third act now.
1653
01:14:24,710 --> 01:14:26,796
How do we get Joy
back to Headquarters?
1654
01:14:26,879 --> 01:14:29,298
And this was actually
a really tough nut to crack.
1655
01:14:29,382 --> 01:14:30,549
I guess we keep saying that.
1656
01:14:30,633 --> 01:14:31,926
The whole movie was tough.
1657
01:14:32,009 --> 01:14:33,803
Yeah, everything was so tough.
1658
01:14:33,886 --> 01:14:37,306
"Yeah, yeah, you draw and
you make cartoons, how hard can it be?"
1659
01:14:37,390 --> 01:14:38,390
Yeah.
1660
01:14:38,432 --> 01:14:39,976
It is, trust me.
1661
01:14:40,059 --> 01:14:43,688
Because every day
you have this problem to solve,
1662
01:14:43,771 --> 01:14:48,818
and it doesn't yield answers for years
even though you get really close to it,
1663
01:14:48,901 --> 01:14:50,277
and that's frustrating.
1664
01:14:50,361 --> 01:14:53,489
I think one of the keys to this
was realizing
1665
01:14:53,572 --> 01:14:56,409
if Joy has been trying to keep
Sadness away from Headquarters,
1666
01:14:57,410 --> 01:15:00,204
now she wants to get Sadness
to Headquarters.
1667
01:15:00,287 --> 01:15:02,206
So, let's not make that easy for her.
1668
01:15:02,289 --> 01:15:06,419
Let's make the characters,
not just the situation, in opposition.
1669
01:15:06,502 --> 01:15:07,503
So we went backwards.
1670
01:15:07,586 --> 01:15:09,588
And even though
it's a little bit loose, I think,
1671
01:15:09,672 --> 01:15:12,174
as to why Sadness is trying to run away,
1672
01:15:12,258 --> 01:15:16,804
she's sort of feeling guilt-ridden and
responsible for all these bad things.
1673
01:15:16,887 --> 01:15:20,725
But Joy now has to work
to get her and bring her back,
1674
01:15:20,808 --> 01:15:23,269
so that then really helped
shape the whole thing.
1675
01:15:23,602 --> 01:15:25,688
We also had this concept
from pretty early on that,
1676
01:15:25,771 --> 01:15:27,732
"Hey, we have this great place,
Imagination Land,"
1677
01:15:27,815 --> 01:15:28,959
"we also have Dream Production,"
1678
01:15:28,983 --> 01:15:31,861
"we have all the bucket of cool places
we've been to."
1679
01:15:31,944 --> 01:15:36,449
"How can we use some, one,
or all of those things to get them back?"
1680
01:15:36,532 --> 01:15:39,012
For a while we've tried
bringing the clown out of Subconscious.
1681
01:15:39,952 --> 01:15:40,953
Oh, yeah.
1682
01:15:41,037 --> 01:15:42,079
And he was gonna
1683
01:15:42,163 --> 01:15:45,124
sit on a giant whoopee cushion
which was gonna propel them up.
1684
01:15:45,207 --> 01:15:48,544
We knew that we didn't wanna
repeat the same thing with the wagon,
1685
01:15:48,627 --> 01:15:52,048
'cause we'd just seen them
fly out of the dump.
1686
01:15:52,131 --> 01:15:53,883
So it had to be something else.
1687
01:15:54,508 --> 01:15:57,928
One of the things that, the biggest
laughs in the making of the film
1688
01:15:58,012 --> 01:16:00,222
was the boyfriend thing.
1689
01:16:00,306 --> 01:16:02,600
And so we thought,
"Let's try to use that again."
1690
01:16:02,683 --> 01:16:05,227
Which is a little bizarre, but you know...
1691
01:16:05,311 --> 01:16:06,413
I know. Well, and also that...
1692
01:16:06,437 --> 01:16:07,497
That's what you want.
1693
01:16:07,521 --> 01:16:11,025
The Cloud Town,
it seemed like it was there,
1694
01:16:11,108 --> 01:16:14,862
and that those puffy clouds could float,
1695
01:16:15,279 --> 01:16:18,074
I wonder if that could be a conveyance.
1696
01:16:18,157 --> 01:16:20,826
Oh, of course not, it can't...
Wait a second.
1697
01:16:20,910 --> 01:16:23,746
What if...
1698
01:16:23,829 --> 01:16:25,140
The boyfriends,
who are voiced by
1699
01:16:25,164 --> 01:16:27,291
one of our story artists, Tony Maki,
1700
01:16:27,374 --> 01:16:30,878
who just seemed like he had that
sort of overly dramatic kind of...
1701
01:16:30,961 --> 01:16:32,421
He has a handsome voice.
1702
01:16:32,505 --> 01:16:34,465
Yeah, he does.
And he's a handsome fellow.
1703
01:17:03,285 --> 01:17:05,621
This blew me away, the... Ha-ha.
1704
01:17:05,704 --> 01:17:07,248
Blew me away...
1705
01:17:07,331 --> 01:17:08,958
The balloon blowing those cards over.
1706
01:17:09,041 --> 01:17:10,417
That was the effects department.
1707
01:17:10,501 --> 01:17:14,839
And they used this simulation tool
which approximates
1708
01:17:14,922 --> 01:17:17,967
what would happen if you actually had
all these cards stacked up...
1709
01:17:18,050 --> 01:17:19,927
and generated.
1710
01:17:20,010 --> 01:17:21,887
So it's pretty neat-looking.
1711
01:17:46,829 --> 01:17:48,747
There goes Joy
and then the boyfriends.
1712
01:17:48,831 --> 01:17:53,419
We contemplated several times
because she says, "Time to prove it."
1713
01:17:53,502 --> 01:17:56,088
The boys say, "We would die for Riley."
1714
01:17:56,172 --> 01:17:59,175
Should we show them
actually falling down into the dump?
1715
01:17:59,258 --> 01:18:00,843
You know?
1716
01:18:00,926 --> 01:18:02,678
We decided not to go for gruesome.
1717
01:18:02,761 --> 01:18:04,489
But it's sort of implied
that they do, they...
1718
01:18:04,513 --> 01:18:06,575
It's implied
that they sacrificed themselves.
1719
01:18:06,599 --> 01:18:08,493
- Hey, they're imaginary, so...
- Yes.
1720
01:18:08,517 --> 01:18:11,145
And all of that is fun,
1721
01:18:11,228 --> 01:18:14,857
workshopping with a story crew,
coming together, brainstorming,
1722
01:18:14,940 --> 01:18:16,400
dog-piling on this problem.
1723
01:18:16,483 --> 01:18:18,485
"And then this happens,
and then this happens."
1724
01:18:18,569 --> 01:18:20,463
- Yeah, the story crew was...
- "And that would happen."
1725
01:18:20,487 --> 01:18:22,823
When you can find
these kind of ideas like this,
1726
01:18:22,907 --> 01:18:25,201
where we know basically
where we're trying to go,
1727
01:18:25,284 --> 01:18:31,123
but how, why, where, all that stuff,
is really fun for them, to involve them in.
1728
01:18:31,207 --> 01:18:33,417
- And they had some great ideas.
- Yeah.
1729
01:18:33,500 --> 01:18:36,629
This was another one
where we rewrote many times,
1730
01:18:36,712 --> 01:18:39,089
Disgust's speech to Anger,
1731
01:18:39,173 --> 01:18:42,551
trying to upset him
and provoke him into anger.
1732
01:18:42,635 --> 01:18:46,764
And I don't remember how many
different versions of that we did,
1733
01:18:46,847 --> 01:18:48,390
and tortured...
1734
01:18:48,474 --> 01:18:49,634
Mindy.
1735
01:18:49,683 --> 01:18:51,435
Poor Mindy was rerecording them.
1736
01:18:51,518 --> 01:18:54,396
- But I think it turned out really well.
- She's a trouper.
1737
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:04,907
So then having held Sadness
back from the console,
1738
01:19:04,990 --> 01:19:06,742
Joy now urges her forward.
1739
01:19:06,825 --> 01:19:09,995
And this was John and Andrew
helping us quite a bit,
1740
01:19:10,079 --> 01:19:11,956
trying to make it as much of a surprise,
1741
01:19:12,039 --> 01:19:14,458
not only to the audience
but to these other characters.
1742
01:19:14,541 --> 01:19:17,544
So they assume Joy is gonna
step forward and save the day,
1743
01:19:17,628 --> 01:19:21,131
and instead Joy now has learned
that it's gonna be Sadness.
1744
01:19:22,675 --> 01:19:26,512
So she's able to step up
and remove that idea.
1745
01:19:27,054 --> 01:19:29,223
Something that I remember,
when we boarded this,
1746
01:19:29,306 --> 01:19:34,728
it was a little unclear as to when
exactly she is able to clear the console
1747
01:19:34,812 --> 01:19:36,480
and make it usable again.
1748
01:19:36,563 --> 01:19:40,901
And in Layout, this is one of those
you never quite know, as things...
1749
01:19:40,985 --> 01:19:43,153
You kind of figure things out.
1750
01:19:43,237 --> 01:19:47,116
We pushed the idea of Sadness
actually touching the console
1751
01:19:47,199 --> 01:19:51,036
until the moment when Joy actually...
1752
01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:52,847
- Once she replays the memories.
- Mmm-hmm.
1753
01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:55,416
So early on,
I think she had touched the console,
1754
01:19:55,499 --> 01:19:57,084
cooled it down, got the memory out,
1755
01:19:57,167 --> 01:19:59,837
but that sort of implied
that Riley was already feeling sad.
1756
01:20:00,504 --> 01:20:03,048
So we separated those concepts
and made that different.
1757
01:20:17,563 --> 01:20:21,608
This is the payoff that Joy has been
trying to prevent the whole film.
1758
01:20:21,692 --> 01:20:23,485
"Sadness, don't touch the memories."
1759
01:20:23,569 --> 01:20:25,654
"Don't touch the Core Memories,
stay away!"
1760
01:20:25,738 --> 01:20:28,407
And now she willingly
gives them over to her.
1761
01:20:28,490 --> 01:20:30,200
And it's sad for her.
1762
01:20:30,284 --> 01:20:33,746
I think she knows
she's doing the right thing on one level,
1763
01:20:33,829 --> 01:20:34,955
but it's also painful.
1764
01:20:35,039 --> 01:20:37,207
Just like watching your kids grow up.
1765
01:20:58,145 --> 01:21:00,689
The replay here of the memories,
1766
01:21:00,773 --> 01:21:05,861
we double-printed frames, so it, kind of...
An inferred slow motion.
1767
01:21:05,944 --> 01:21:08,822
We could have animated it
or rendered it in slowmo,
1768
01:21:08,947 --> 01:21:12,451
but I think this really
cements the idea that...
1769
01:21:12,534 --> 01:21:14,244
I don't know, this is the way I feel about
1770
01:21:14,328 --> 01:21:18,624
when you think about nostalgic
memories that are bittersweet.
1771
01:21:18,707 --> 01:21:21,543
And I love this last shot,
skating away from the camera
1772
01:21:21,627 --> 01:21:23,212
kind of represents this is Minnesota...
1773
01:21:23,295 --> 01:21:24,898
- It's going away.
- Going away.
1774
01:21:24,922 --> 01:21:27,674
This was kind of a gut instinct
that I thought I'd try,
1775
01:21:27,758 --> 01:21:31,053
is when Sadness
finally touches the console,
1776
01:21:31,136 --> 01:21:35,099
it has this warm, rich,
resonant tone to it.
1777
01:21:35,182 --> 01:21:36,892
I guess what I was going for...
1778
01:21:36,975 --> 01:21:39,603
One of the psychologists
we talked to, Dacher Keltner,
1779
01:21:39,686 --> 01:21:43,023
he pointed out the vagus nerve,
which is in your chest.
1780
01:21:43,107 --> 01:21:46,902
And it's that warm, rich feeling
when you really love someone
1781
01:21:46,985 --> 01:21:48,070
or something good happens,
1782
01:21:48,153 --> 01:21:50,739
you have this blooming feeling
from your chest.
1783
01:21:50,823 --> 01:21:54,326
And I think that's what
I was going for with that tone.
1784
01:21:54,410 --> 01:21:56,995
That when Sadness,
even though it's counterintuitive
1785
01:21:57,079 --> 01:21:59,581
'cause Sadness
doesn't really usually feel like that.
1786
01:21:59,665 --> 01:22:02,126
Finally, after all this time
of holding her back
1787
01:22:02,209 --> 01:22:03,877
we're finally gonna allow her forward.
1788
01:22:03,961 --> 01:22:08,632
And then that's the last sound
that we hear before it all drops out,
1789
01:22:08,715 --> 01:22:12,219
and we just have the silence of Riley
talking to her parents,
1790
01:22:12,302 --> 01:22:15,139
and admitting finally that she's sad.
1791
01:22:15,222 --> 01:22:19,351
Which is something Joy would
never wanna do, prior to this journey.
1792
01:22:19,435 --> 01:22:21,562
And it's ultimately
what brings them together.
1793
01:22:43,709 --> 01:22:45,103
There's a lot of orchestration
1794
01:22:45,127 --> 01:22:47,254
about memories
that we had been trying to find
1795
01:22:47,337 --> 01:22:50,799
ways to loop back in.
1796
01:22:50,883 --> 01:22:51,884
Mmm-hmm.
1797
01:22:51,967 --> 01:22:55,053
This blue memory,
I remember, from the very beginning
1798
01:22:55,137 --> 01:22:59,975
the story guys were like, "Well,
it went to the dump, you recover it."
1799
01:23:00,476 --> 01:23:02,036
- "Shouldn't you bring it back?"
- Mmm-hmm.
1800
01:23:02,060 --> 01:23:04,229
I was like, "Yeah."
1801
01:23:04,646 --> 01:23:07,483
We have so many memories to track.
Where is... What? Where...
1802
01:23:07,566 --> 01:23:10,819
But it now becomes
emotionally satisfying
1803
01:23:10,903 --> 01:23:15,032
that that was where
all of these problems began for Joy.
1804
01:23:15,949 --> 01:23:18,911
Now she's willing
to give it back to Sadness.
1805
01:23:18,994 --> 01:23:22,664
Yeah, I also felt like
the Core Memories were for Riley,
1806
01:23:22,748 --> 01:23:23,832
this one was for Sadness.
1807
01:23:23,916 --> 01:23:25,292
For Sadness.
1808
01:23:25,375 --> 01:23:27,377
It's like a
little offering for her.
1809
01:23:32,216 --> 01:23:37,012
I love that this whole ending reverses
the sort of usual loud action thing
1810
01:23:37,095 --> 01:23:39,348
that usually,
traditionally happens in movies.
1811
01:23:39,431 --> 01:23:42,518
You build, build, build to this big climax,
1812
01:23:42,601 --> 01:23:44,394
and here we've pulled back,
1813
01:23:44,478 --> 01:23:49,274
and it's just the quietness
and the sadness of Riley
1814
01:23:49,358 --> 01:23:52,194
that's able to complete the whole thing.
1815
01:23:52,277 --> 01:23:54,339
And also,
if you notice, this is a bookend,
1816
01:23:54,363 --> 01:23:57,032
wherein we began the movie with Joy,
and then Sadness comes in,
1817
01:23:58,367 --> 01:24:00,011
the fly in the ointment, as Pete had said.
1818
01:24:00,035 --> 01:24:03,539
And then here, at the resolve,
we have Joy and Sadness,
1819
01:24:03,622 --> 01:24:06,833
but they are actually
embracing each other.
1820
01:24:06,917 --> 01:24:07,960
Yeah.
1821
01:24:08,544 --> 01:24:12,464
We had a lot of different ideas for
different islands that could be out there.
1822
01:24:12,548 --> 01:24:15,050
Somehow it seemed funnier
to just hear their names
1823
01:24:15,133 --> 01:24:18,011
than to go for close-ups or anything.
1824
01:24:19,012 --> 01:24:21,348
The new console
was meant to symbolize
1825
01:24:21,431 --> 01:24:23,850
the complexity of adult emotions.
1826
01:24:23,934 --> 01:24:26,520
I don't think this is really true
but our experience of it
1827
01:24:26,603 --> 01:24:29,106
is that children have very pure,
simple emotions.
1828
01:24:29,731 --> 01:24:31,024
Probably very loud ones too.
1829
01:24:31,108 --> 01:24:34,903
And as adults they become
much more complex and nuanced.
1830
01:24:34,987 --> 01:24:37,281
So the console
was symbolizing all of that.
1831
01:24:37,364 --> 01:24:38,740
Yes, and confusing.
1832
01:24:38,824 --> 01:24:40,384
- Look at those buttons.
- Yeah.
1833
01:24:57,968 --> 01:25:02,097
Of course, after the dinner scene played
so well in some of our early screenings,
1834
01:25:02,180 --> 01:25:05,934
here at work there was a desire
for callbacks from Mom and Dad.
1835
01:25:06,018 --> 01:25:07,811
So we have the face painting.
1836
01:25:08,770 --> 01:25:11,273
We can sense that things
are gonna work out all right.
1837
01:25:12,482 --> 01:25:16,028
Mom's not gonna go off with
the Brazilian helicopter pilot after all.
1838
01:25:18,822 --> 01:25:21,283
And then I don't remember
who came up with the boy thing.
1839
01:25:21,992 --> 01:25:23,493
Was it Josh, was it you?
1840
01:25:23,577 --> 01:25:25,162
Oh, probably was Josh.
1841
01:25:25,245 --> 01:25:26,723
- I don't remember.
- Anyway, that...
1842
01:25:26,747 --> 01:25:30,584
After this sort of melancholy, sweet,
wonderful, sad moment,
1843
01:25:30,667 --> 01:25:33,629
this is a way to kind of bring
some energy back in
1844
01:25:33,712 --> 01:25:36,006
and leave on an uptick.
1845
01:25:36,423 --> 01:25:38,800
And great acting on Riley.
1846
01:25:38,884 --> 01:25:40,302
- Yeah.
- I love it.
1847
01:25:40,385 --> 01:25:42,679
And then
we also really wanted to show,
1848
01:25:42,763 --> 01:25:47,225
even though the primary relationship in
the film was between Joy and Sadness,
1849
01:25:47,309 --> 01:25:49,311
we wanted to demonstrate
to the audience
1850
01:25:49,394 --> 01:25:53,357
that all of the emotions are now
involved in a very sort of team-like way.
1851
01:25:53,440 --> 01:25:56,652
So from one to the other,
we switch off back and forth
1852
01:25:56,735 --> 01:26:00,280
in this one shot here,
watching Riley play hockey.
1853
01:26:00,364 --> 01:26:03,158
And then this last shot, we go
from a very close-up here on Riley
1854
01:26:03,241 --> 01:26:05,035
all the way to a wide shot.
1855
01:26:05,118 --> 01:26:08,497
And I love that
even after this whole journey,
1856
01:26:08,580 --> 01:26:11,625
Joy, after everything she learned,
she ends the film
1857
01:26:11,708 --> 01:26:13,686
with essentially the same thing
she said at the beginning.
1858
01:26:13,710 --> 01:26:15,587
Which, "What could happen?"
1859
01:26:15,671 --> 01:26:18,173
She's an eternally optimistic character.
1860
01:26:20,384 --> 01:26:22,344
Kind of clueless, but that's the way...
1861
01:26:22,427 --> 01:26:23,571
That's the way we all are.
1862
01:26:23,595 --> 01:26:24,697
That's the way Joy is.
1863
01:26:24,721 --> 01:26:26,366
We move forward
hoping for the best.
1864
01:26:29,810 --> 01:26:31,603
The credits here, we added
1865
01:26:31,728 --> 01:26:35,107
to address a concern
that a lot of folks had,
1866
01:26:35,190 --> 01:26:37,526
that the movie was too sad.
1867
01:26:37,609 --> 01:26:39,528
Which not everybody agreed with,
1868
01:26:39,611 --> 01:26:44,408
but I can't disagree that this whole
ending really brings a lot of humor
1869
01:26:44,491 --> 01:26:45,951
and people love it.
1870
01:26:46,034 --> 01:26:49,871
So it was a fun chance to play
with one of these great ideas
1871
01:26:49,955 --> 01:26:51,206
that the film offered up.
1872
01:26:51,289 --> 01:26:53,375
Which is, "What's going on
inside people's heads?"
1873
01:26:53,458 --> 01:26:55,419
So this is our chance
to have some fun with that.
1874
01:26:55,502 --> 01:26:57,582
- And meet random people.
- Yes, exactly.
1875
01:26:57,629 --> 01:26:59,548
And actually, very early in the process
1876
01:26:59,631 --> 01:27:04,052
we had experimented
going inside a baby's head.
1877
01:27:04,136 --> 01:27:06,722
- Yes.
- Inside a dog's head.
1878
01:27:06,805 --> 01:27:09,141
- And a goldfish's head.
- Goldfish's, yeah.
1879
01:27:09,224 --> 01:27:12,352
And we can't fit it in!
We didn't know...
1880
01:27:12,436 --> 01:27:14,229
It was so funny.
1881
01:27:14,312 --> 01:27:15,856
How about a credit sequence?
1882
01:27:15,939 --> 01:27:18,066
It's like, "Oh, I don't know. Wait..."
1883
01:27:18,984 --> 01:27:20,861
- "We can use it there."
- Yeah.
1884
01:27:21,862 --> 01:27:24,698
In the end, I'm proud of this movie
and the statement that it makes.
1885
01:27:24,823 --> 01:27:28,410
That in a world where
we try to generally avoid sadness,
1886
01:27:28,493 --> 01:27:31,246
we see sadness as a bad thing,
we even medicate it,
1887
01:27:31,329 --> 01:27:35,083
people will take drugs
to avoid feeling sad,
1888
01:27:35,167 --> 01:27:38,670
this movie asserts
the necessity of sadness
1889
01:27:38,754 --> 01:27:41,089
and the importance
that it plays in our lives,
1890
01:27:41,173 --> 01:27:42,466
and the richness that it brings.
1891
01:27:42,549 --> 01:27:44,676
And I think as an adult, especially,
1892
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:47,929
you tend to experience
all these different emotions
1893
01:27:48,013 --> 01:27:50,015
that you initially tried to avoid.
1894
01:27:50,098 --> 01:27:52,684
Because they add a richness to your life
1895
01:27:52,768 --> 01:27:56,146
and a real warmth
and complexity to things.
1896
01:27:57,022 --> 01:27:59,608
Ah! I'm so happy
to have been on this movie.
1897
01:27:59,691 --> 01:28:02,444
Because I learned so much
about emotions.
1898
01:28:02,527 --> 01:28:05,947
But not only that...
This is one of the most complex
1899
01:28:06,031 --> 01:28:07,532
and most difficult movies
1900
01:28:07,616 --> 01:28:08,784
I have ever worked on.
1901
01:28:08,867 --> 01:28:09,993
Yeah, me too.
1902
01:28:10,076 --> 01:28:13,116
I don't think, Ronnie, I don't think we
would have been able to do this movie
1903
01:28:13,205 --> 01:28:14,456
even like five years prior.
1904
01:28:14,539 --> 01:28:15,874
Oh, goodness me, no.
1905
01:28:15,957 --> 01:28:20,045
It just took every ounce
of our training and...
1906
01:28:20,128 --> 01:28:21,814
- Experience.
- Yeah.
1907
01:28:21,838 --> 01:28:23,465
- Patience.
- Yes.
1908
01:28:24,883 --> 01:28:26,927
Climbing tepuis is much easier.
1909
01:28:27,052 --> 01:28:28,845
That's true.
1910
01:28:28,929 --> 01:28:32,224
That's true, yeah. We got to explore
the world out there on Up,
1911
01:28:32,307 --> 01:28:36,394
and then we went inside on this one
and it was quite a journey.
1912
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:37,562
It was, yes.
1913
01:28:37,646 --> 01:28:42,984
But I'm so happy and so grateful
to be part of it.
1914
01:28:43,068 --> 01:28:44,110
Me too.
1915
01:28:44,194 --> 01:28:47,906
I think working with everybody,
I mean, it's been a fantastic journey.
1916
01:28:47,989 --> 01:28:51,660
And everyone on the film, from the story
crew, all the way down to rendering,
1917
01:28:51,743 --> 01:28:53,495
was wonderful.
1918
01:28:53,578 --> 01:28:57,749
I think the film fundamentally
changed me in a lot of ways.
1919
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:02,254
The experience of the film itself
is of course really...
1920
01:29:02,337 --> 01:29:04,381
It always ends up
having an effect on you.
1921
01:29:04,464 --> 01:29:07,133
But just doing the research
and thinking day after day
1922
01:29:07,217 --> 01:29:10,095
about our emotions
and what's driving us,
1923
01:29:10,178 --> 01:29:12,639
and what's going on under the hood,
1924
01:29:12,722 --> 01:29:15,600
I think it really
made me think more deeply
1925
01:29:15,684 --> 01:29:19,479
about the way I interact with people
and what's going on in their heads.
1926
01:29:19,563 --> 01:29:22,274
And, like, a lot of times you think,
"Man, this guy's such a jerk."
1927
01:29:22,357 --> 01:29:24,317
Or so mean or whatever.
1928
01:29:24,401 --> 01:29:27,362
And likely he's not.
They're not trying to do that.
1929
01:29:27,445 --> 01:29:30,323
It's their emotions
and this whole other system
1930
01:29:30,407 --> 01:29:33,785
that is unconsciously,
below their even conscious control,
1931
01:29:33,869 --> 01:29:35,704
it's kind of driving them through life.
1932
01:29:35,787 --> 01:29:38,307
And they're just doing the best they can
based on what they have.
1933
01:29:38,331 --> 01:29:39,791
And in the long run,
1934
01:29:39,875 --> 01:29:42,752
I think the thing that really
affected me was this idea
1935
01:29:42,836 --> 01:29:46,172
that emotions
are the key to relationships.
1936
01:29:46,256 --> 01:29:49,509
That those things
that we sometimes try to avoid,
1937
01:29:49,593 --> 01:29:51,887
anger, fear, disgust, whatever,
1938
01:29:51,970 --> 01:29:55,390
are ultimately the very thing
that make for the deepest relationships
1939
01:29:55,473 --> 01:29:56,474
in our lives.
1940
01:29:56,558 --> 01:30:01,479
And I feel like that's the basic thesis
of the film and the statement of the film.
1941
01:30:01,563 --> 01:30:03,982
And it's pretty powerful.
1942
01:30:04,983 --> 01:30:06,623
I'm so glad you thought of it.
1943
01:30:06,651 --> 01:30:11,114
Well. It wasn't me.
It was a big crew, so it was...
1944
01:30:12,490 --> 01:30:16,494
Anyway, we're sort of rambling here,
so I think we're probably done.
166758
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