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(soft instrumental music)
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A musician's music
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is only what it is, music.
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Some is sad.
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Some is happy.
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Some is fast.
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Some is slow.
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(avant-garde jazz music)
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If you think of jazz as,
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let me begin with way back.
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You have one guy on a porch,
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singing the blues, he's by himself.
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So the blues chorus can be 12 bars.
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It can be 13, it could be 14 and a half.
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It could be nine.
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It's whatever he's doing,
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but add a bass player.
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Now you have to have an agreement between the two of you.
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And this becomes more and more obviously necessary
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as you add other musicians,
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and suddenly you have a big band,
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and everything is scored and composed.
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What the avant-garde began to do,
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is to go back the other way and say,
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you know, we have really mastered this music.
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We understand how to talk to each other.
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Now let's take away some of those agreements,
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and see, can we still talk to each other?
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Can we really improvise freely?
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They're not saying that we don't like the past.
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They're not saying that we're better than the past.
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They're saying that this is another way to hear music.
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(crowd cheering)
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This is what I would love to have in my music, presence.
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You know, as long as I can live, I mean,
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I don't care about nothing I played yesterday,
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if I can go home right now and write some music,
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that is a presence, you know.
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That's why they have machines, you know?
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So you can, if you want the past,
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there's a machine that's got the past,
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right there, you know,
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and which I think is very good, you know?
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So therefore that means we as human beings
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can be in the present.
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Every movement in jazz reflects its time.
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And one of the ironies of jazz in the 20th century,
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because it moved so quickly
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is that you were brought up in one era,
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but you played something else.
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You were brought up listening, loving swing,
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a listening to Duke Ellington,
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but you ended up playing Charlie Parker's music.
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One, two, three, four.
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Bebop, you see, wow.
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Bebop had an urgency.
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It had a kind of arrogance.
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There was no way you could get by,
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by being a narrow player and just play ensemble, you know.
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If you were in a bebop band you were a soloist.
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See, the swing bands on the records,
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you don't have these lengthy solos.
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With the boppers, you got a chance to hear Charlie Parker.
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I saw him when I was just a kid.
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That was 1949,
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but I never will forget it.
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And I was amazed at how this human being, one man,
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can stand up there looking like a saint and an angel,
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in a white suit, playing all this beautiful music, man.
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It changed my whole life.
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Charlie Parker looked like Buddha.
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Charlie Parker, who recently died,
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laughing at a juggler on TV,
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after weeks of strain and sickness,
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was called a perfect musician.
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Charlie Parker, pray for me.
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Pray for me and everybody.
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Charlie, did you realize at that time,
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what effect you were going to have on jazz?
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Well, I mean,
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ever since I've ever heard music,
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I thought it should be very clean, very precise.
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I mean, of course it could stand much improvement.
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Most likely in another 25 or maybe 50 years,
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some youngster will come along and take the style
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and really do something with it, you know?
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Just imagine what it'd be like
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to be in New York in 1959
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in the wake of the death of Charlie Parker,
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who's still alive then in everybody's heads,
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as Miles Davis doing what he's doing,
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you come to town and say, well,
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now all of that's really wonderful, but what about this?
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Ornette was creating notes
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that had not previously existed.
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Ornette comes in,
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the first thing he does is breaks a standing rule in jazz.
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People don't want to give Ornette Coleman credit for this,
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but I don't have any problems with it.
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I'm sure there may have been some people historically,
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who at one point said, well,
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maybe you could improvise without following any chords,
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but in my mind Ornette Coleman is the first guy
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to make it work.
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Many people would have been discouraged,
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'cause he got a lot of the abuse from musicians around town
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who really didn't get where he was coming from.
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There's one occasion where he was playing with some guys,
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and while he had his eyes closed playing,
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they all got up and walked off the stage.
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One musician after the other left the stage.
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Ornette was left alone.
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Then the waiter came up and said, Mister Coleman,
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somebody wants to talk to you.
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He walked out the door and they took his saxophone,
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threw it down the mountain.
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It was on a hill,
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and beat him up.
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His lung collapsed.
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He had to go to the hospital.
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That's when I started trying to not worry
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about whether what I was doing had any value,
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or whether it was good or bad, but to do it.
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Whatever Ornette was doing, it worked.
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I was converted.
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You know, just conversion,
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instant conversion,
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and instant adoration.
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It was like a religion.
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I can't imagine how to describe it,
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how to compare it to anything.
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The thing that Ornette Coleman was doing with pitch,
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that a lot of people just weren't getting,
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the people who were saying he was out of tune,
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is that he was playing quarter-tone pitches,
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by which he meant that he's playing the notes
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in between the two adjacent keys on the piano.
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If you play the exact ratio of quarter notes,
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then you're in tune.
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You're in tune.
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You're not in tune with the rest of the planet,
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but you're in tune with yourself.
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In my classes at one college
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where I teach the history of jazz,
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when I play that some people say,
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just gives me a migraine headache.
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Well, I don't know what to say to you,
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but I would agree, it's not easy to listen to,
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but that's not what you think about
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when you're writing music.
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Is it gonna be easy to listen to, you know?
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To be perfected,
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and acknowledged without ever having to
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sell out, what they call sell out,
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I'm for that all the way.
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(scat singing)
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(dissonant piano music)
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It seems to me what music is, is everything that you do.
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Straight from the heart.
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So.
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So to read or dance, you know,
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to converse is all a part of the making of music.
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Cecil and Ornette come from
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very different parts of the musical map.
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You had Ornette who comes out of the southwestern style,
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where he has a really raw jagged approach
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to the tempered scale that's made a lot of people
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compare him to blues and rhythm and blues.
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(avant-garde piano music)
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Cecil Taylor obviously listened to Ellington.
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He knew Bud Powell.
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He studied formally.
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He studied at the New England Conservatory.
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He had an education, not only in Europe,
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but he grew up listening to a lot of pop.
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So he listened to all of that stuff growing up,
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but he had his own approach.
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A lot of people misunderstand him.
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He's kind of microscopic in his improvisations.
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But in a certain way, because it's so dense,
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it reminds me of mountains,
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oceans, all these kinds of elements,
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not human elements.
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(avant-garde piano)
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The point is you have to understand this music
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in terms of the traditional jazz that you've heard before.
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Next question please.
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Now, when we talk about jazz,
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we use these terrible semantic terms
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that sort of create battle lines.
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For example, bop is a meaningless word, bebop.
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It has to do with the sound of a drum lick.
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It's a shorthand for communication.
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So that if I say to you bebop,
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you immediately think Charlie Parker,
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Dizzy Gillespie, Bud Powell.
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If I say avant-garde, you think Cecil Taylor,
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Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Albert Ayler.
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Swing, Benny Goodman, Count Basie.
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Although, you know, the truth is,
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and the farther we get away in time for any movement,
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you see how there is a real logic in how
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all of these musics really do have an interactive,
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not just progression,
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but just sort of feed on each other.
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(gun firing)
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A gun.
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Mingus initially made a very interesting remark
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about Ornette.
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He said that Ornette is like,
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he's playing in his own world
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and it doesn't relate to anybody else's world.
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This is the bass.
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Mingus Mingus.
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But eventually Mingus's music itself
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became more consciously avant-garde.
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Charlie Mingus was always ahead of the game.
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I mean, he played during the period with Bird,
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but there was not that much of a big divide
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between what we were doing and what he was doing.
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One must remember that he came from
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the same neighborhood as Eric.
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I came from a more oriented bebop style,
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so when I saw Eric Dolphy for the first time,
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I couldn't stand Eric Dolphy because that felt like
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he couldn't even play the saxophone
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And then the second time I seen Eric Dolphy,
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he turned out to be my most favorite musician of all times.
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So then I embraced that kind of music,
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the freeform, avant-garde jazz.
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One of the things that makes the avant-garde different
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from every other school of jazz,
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certainly that proceeded it, and I think that's followed it,
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is that the major figures
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all come from very discreet backgrounds.
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I mean, these are artists spread
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all over the United States geographically.
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So first off, tell me where you're from.
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Well, I'm from New Orleans.
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Oh, it's a place called Texas,
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okay, Fort Worth, Texas.
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Yeah, that's where I'm from.
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And here's the great Ornette Coleman.
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We used to play in the auditorium at our high school.
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I think I met Ornette Coleman in Texas.
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Then I moved to Los Angeles.
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As fate or whatever would have it,
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I'm on the street car one day,
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and there was Ornette Coleman.
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And in the months that followed,
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I played around town with him.
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There were places to go to jam sessions all over LA, then.
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When Ornette Coleman started to make
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his move around Los Angeles,
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going to the jam sessions to sit in,
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he was up against a real brick wall, but he hung in there.
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You can see and finally got some people surrounded him,
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you know, who were sympathetic,
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empathetic to what he was doing.
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When Ornette came to town,
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he ran into Don Cherry.
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They didn't know each other.
265
00:18:09,690 --> 00:18:13,150
And Don Cherry was ready.
266
00:18:13,150 --> 00:18:18,070
And then Charlie was also completely willing and able
267
00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:19,480
and joined his band.
268
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,873
And Ornette now could write for another person.
269
00:18:27,810 --> 00:18:29,240
You ran into people around town
270
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,160
any time you went out to play.
271
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,420
I used to go to jam sessions with Eric Dolphy,
272
00:18:33,420 --> 00:18:35,520
and here's a guy who was a really great player,
273
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,690
and no disrespect to Eric in saying what I'm saying.
274
00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:40,300
A lot of people seemed to think that Eric
275
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:41,990
was one of the figures around Los Angeles
276
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:44,990
who was playing some sort of free jazz.
277
00:18:44,990 --> 00:18:46,260
That's not true.
278
00:18:46,260 --> 00:18:47,460
He was not going around town
279
00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:50,050
doing anything like Ornette Coleman was doing.
280
00:18:50,050 --> 00:18:51,580
And Eric was really good, man.
281
00:18:51,580 --> 00:18:56,510
But I see him as just a very sophisticated bebopper then.
282
00:18:56,510 --> 00:18:57,580
Now when he came to New York,
283
00:18:57,580 --> 00:18:59,473
things began to go another direction.
284
00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:04,470
But once Eric came to New York,
285
00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:07,730
I think what was happening in New York, in that period now,
286
00:19:07,730 --> 00:19:10,030
late 50s, early 60s,
287
00:19:11,136 --> 00:19:12,060
a lot of people were flirting
288
00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:15,014
with going, in quotes, now outside.
289
00:19:15,014 --> 00:19:18,014
(avant-garde music)
290
00:19:24,432 --> 00:19:26,410
What brought you to New York?
291
00:19:26,410 --> 00:19:27,243
The music.
292
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:31,693
brought you to New York?
293
00:19:31,693 --> 00:19:32,943
Prince Lasha.
294
00:19:35,730 --> 00:19:38,583
What a character. (laughing)
295
00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:42,550
Yeah, he's my man.
296
00:19:42,550 --> 00:19:44,180
Yeah, I'm looking for some questions.
297
00:19:44,180 --> 00:19:45,460
Do you have any?
298
00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:46,570
What's that?
You have any questions?
299
00:19:46,570 --> 00:19:49,120
I need to ask, you have any questions?
300
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:50,250
Ask me?
Questions?
301
00:19:50,250 --> 00:19:52,550
Yeah, I got plenty of answers, man, come on.
302
00:19:53,660 --> 00:19:55,130
The way we came to New York,
303
00:19:55,130 --> 00:19:57,260
back in '60-
304
00:19:57,260 --> 00:19:58,210
'63.
305
00:19:58,210 --> 00:20:00,357
Yeah, '63, sure was man.
306
00:20:00,357 --> 00:20:01,940
How could I ever forget that? Thanks, Don.
307
00:20:01,940 --> 00:20:03,990
Let me tell you that story.
308
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:05,853
Okay, make sure your mics are on.
309
00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:09,090
Yeah, here's what happened, man.
310
00:20:09,090 --> 00:20:12,870
My worthy constituent, my orangutan, Sir (indistinct).
311
00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:14,120
We were at a music store,
312
00:20:15,070 --> 00:20:16,063
and he was listening to this music.
313
00:20:16,063 --> 00:20:17,790
I said, who is that?
314
00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:19,203
He said, Eric Dolphy.
315
00:20:19,203 --> 00:20:20,760
I said, Eric who?
316
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:21,980
He said, Eric Dolphy.
317
00:20:21,980 --> 00:20:24,514
I said damn, where is he?
318
00:20:24,514 --> 00:20:25,740
He said, he's in New York.
319
00:20:25,740 --> 00:20:27,490
I said, is he gonna be ready to leave in two weeks?
320
00:20:27,490 --> 00:20:28,500
He said, what?
321
00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:30,150
I say, I'm leaving for New York,
322
00:20:30,150 --> 00:20:32,140
because my worthy constituent Ornette Coleman
323
00:20:32,140 --> 00:20:34,200
was the God of freedom.
324
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,070
And here is Eric Dolphy right?
325
00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:38,393
I want to see this mother, you know what I mean?
326
00:20:41,230 --> 00:20:43,782
So at this time I already had a record out
327
00:20:43,782 --> 00:20:46,010
with Prince Lasha called, The Cry,
328
00:20:46,010 --> 00:20:48,373
and it was making waves in the world.
329
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,890
I'm gonna get read to the meat of the story.
330
00:20:53,890 --> 00:20:57,440
I repaired a Chrysler, I had an eight-cylinder Chrysler.
331
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,013
Sure did, man, we drove across the US.
332
00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:06,940
And I remember very vividly,
333
00:21:06,940 --> 00:21:08,613
that we were on the freeway,
334
00:21:09,540 --> 00:21:11,283
what we thought was a freeway at that time.
335
00:21:11,283 --> 00:21:14,020
4:00 a.m. in the morning, man.
336
00:21:14,020 --> 00:21:15,430
So I was really tired.
337
00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:17,126
Gorilla was tired.
338
00:21:17,126 --> 00:21:19,983
So I give it to my orangutan to drive at night, you know?
339
00:21:21,006 --> 00:21:22,720
And so at a certain moment,
340
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,560
I hear all these sirens and lights and everything,
341
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,420
and they pull us over, and said, you know,
342
00:21:27,420 --> 00:21:29,280
you're driving on the wrong side of the highway.
343
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,710
This cat was a smooth talker.
344
00:21:31,710 --> 00:21:33,310
I observed that right off, man.
345
00:21:33,310 --> 00:21:36,140
This cat was a smooth con artist.
346
00:21:36,140 --> 00:21:38,730
We had no idea it was two lanes, you know.
347
00:21:38,730 --> 00:21:40,763
We was used to two going and two coming.
348
00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:43,193
So they tell us go.
349
00:21:44,977 --> 00:21:46,271
Free at last.
350
00:21:46,271 --> 00:21:47,271
Very good.
351
00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:50,673
So that's part of the story.
352
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:53,353
Want to hear the rest of the story?
353
00:21:54,460 --> 00:21:55,410
Okay, ask me any questions.
354
00:21:55,410 --> 00:21:57,290
I can answer anything.
355
00:21:57,290 --> 00:21:58,540
Did you call Dolphy
356
00:21:58,540 --> 00:21:59,373
while you were on the road?
357
00:21:59,373 --> 00:22:02,644
Look, I'm surprised you asked me that question.
358
00:22:02,644 --> 00:22:03,477
When I called Eric Dolphy,
359
00:22:03,477 --> 00:22:06,710
what do I hear on the record player, but The Cry!
360
00:22:06,710 --> 00:22:09,570
He said, man, I'm listening to you now.
361
00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:11,320
I said, yeah, I can hear it.
362
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:12,343
I don't believe it.
363
00:22:13,220 --> 00:22:18,220
Then all the cats that play great music
364
00:22:18,530 --> 00:22:21,920
and great stars and recording artists
365
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,943
came over to the loft to play with the Prince and I.
366
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,133
And it was great, man.
367
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,630
We had an ally in the back of our pad,
368
00:22:43,630 --> 00:22:45,793
and one evening I heard-
369
00:22:48,570 --> 00:22:50,390
I look out the window because we could see
370
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:52,700
right from the kitchen table window,
371
00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:55,490
and look out in the back and see who's there.
372
00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:57,883
And it's Prince Lasha.
373
00:22:59,190 --> 00:23:01,703
I got up from the table and went outside,
374
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,640
and he had another guy with him
375
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,050
that I didn't recognize right away.
376
00:23:08,050 --> 00:23:10,243
And after millisecond, I did.
377
00:23:29,450 --> 00:23:31,363
John Coltrane,
378
00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:34,233
the high and mighty one.
379
00:23:42,571 --> 00:23:45,071
I moved to New York in 1960,
380
00:23:46,090 --> 00:23:49,383
which was a wonderful period in this city.
381
00:23:50,460 --> 00:23:52,310
There was so much creativity,
382
00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:55,333
and so many artists, musicians.
383
00:23:56,850 --> 00:23:59,393
I call it like one of the golden periods.
384
00:24:00,986 --> 00:24:03,403
(jazz music)
385
00:24:13,562 --> 00:24:14,903
There was an immediacy in the air, man.
386
00:24:14,903 --> 00:24:17,203
It was like a short fuse and a long explosion.
387
00:24:20,980 --> 00:24:23,000
I was into now, doing it now.
388
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,850
Whatever it was, I had to do it, now.
389
00:24:35,980 --> 00:24:38,890
Coltrane would come to town when I was in Philly,
390
00:24:38,890 --> 00:24:41,580
and we had a place in Philly called Music City.
391
00:24:41,580 --> 00:24:42,450
So I went down there,
392
00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:45,370
I got myself good and fucked up on some wine and shit.
393
00:24:45,370 --> 00:24:48,140
I felt like I could do anything at that point.
394
00:24:48,140 --> 00:24:51,660
And I asked him to let me sit in, but he wasn't having it.
395
00:24:51,660 --> 00:24:53,967
And I was bugging him a lot, you know?
396
00:24:53,967 --> 00:24:55,330
And so he told me, he said, well look man,
397
00:24:55,330 --> 00:24:57,300
what you really need to do, Rashied,
398
00:24:57,300 --> 00:24:58,520
you just need to go to New York,
399
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,990
because there's a lot of guys in New York,
400
00:25:00,990 --> 00:25:03,910
playing this kind of music that you're interested in.
401
00:25:03,910 --> 00:25:06,090
I mean, just like John said it, man, I was,
402
00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:08,200
they was waiting for me here.
403
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,460
I mean, first I have to say that almost every week,
404
00:25:11,460 --> 00:25:14,723
literally, almost every week for a couple of years,
405
00:25:15,730 --> 00:25:17,363
there was somebody new in town.
406
00:25:18,578 --> 00:25:21,995
(avant-garde jazz music)
407
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:31,310
And it took a while before the movement, in a sense,
408
00:25:31,310 --> 00:25:35,483
gave them a legitimacy that they didn't have individually.
409
00:25:42,170 --> 00:25:43,700
One of the big moments
410
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:46,789
that sort of began the idea that there's a movement here.
411
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:49,150
This is bullshit, man.
412
00:25:49,150 --> 00:25:50,450
That these young musicians,
413
00:25:50,450 --> 00:25:52,310
all thinking in a similar way,
414
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:53,970
was when Ornette Coleman made a record
415
00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:56,033
in 1960 called, Free Jazz.
416
00:25:58,074 --> 00:26:01,574
(avant-garde jazz music)
417
00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:05,883
Because that was the name.
418
00:26:07,919 --> 00:26:11,419
(avant-garde jazz music)
419
00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:30,330
I was in college when he did Free Jazz,
420
00:26:30,330 --> 00:26:32,430
and he sent for me to make that recording.
421
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,740
It was just before the end of the semester,
422
00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:38,620
which meant I would just fail the course,
423
00:26:38,620 --> 00:26:40,043
and I decided to not go.
424
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:44,580
And so he sent me a ticket, as I remember,
425
00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:46,050
and I sent it back.
426
00:26:46,050 --> 00:26:47,600
And people say to me all the time, man,
427
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,600
you should have made that famous record.
428
00:26:52,037 --> 00:26:55,537
(avant-garde jazz music)
429
00:27:20,060 --> 00:27:22,243
That's a historic recording.
430
00:27:26,620 --> 00:27:28,823
A lot of people had a lot of trouble with that.
431
00:27:30,090 --> 00:27:30,923
That's a record.
432
00:27:30,923 --> 00:27:33,560
Now you see that Ornette Coleman's earlier recordings,
433
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,840
you can still hear a thread of Charlie Parker
434
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,490
making its way through those early tunes, but free jazz man.
435
00:27:40,490 --> 00:27:42,500
That apron string or,
436
00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:45,030
or whatever, umbilical cord to bebop
437
00:27:45,030 --> 00:27:47,010
certainly disappears on that, man.
438
00:27:47,010 --> 00:27:48,593
That's all Ornette Coleman.
439
00:27:53,690 --> 00:27:55,890
I knew there was a new era
440
00:27:55,890 --> 00:27:59,260
on the scene of jazz music in America.
441
00:28:06,072 --> 00:28:08,655
(wind blowing)
442
00:28:22,424 --> 00:28:25,841
(avant-garde jazz music)
443
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,450
(gasping)
444
00:29:03,330 --> 00:29:05,430
Most people are used to only having
445
00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:08,400
one melody going at a time,
446
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,400
and cannot cope with polyrhythms and polytonality.
447
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,670
But we were looking for that
448
00:29:16,670 --> 00:29:20,453
freedom to play in any kind of tempo,
449
00:29:21,695 --> 00:29:25,240
and each individual could play in his own tempo
450
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,380
and create melodies that were independent
451
00:29:28,380 --> 00:29:31,743
in a way from what the other players were playing.
452
00:29:36,660 --> 00:29:37,970
You had to break something down
453
00:29:37,970 --> 00:29:41,783
to be able to create something new.
454
00:29:47,050 --> 00:29:51,100
I said that improvisation is thought
455
00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:54,020
informed by a passion and
456
00:29:54,890 --> 00:29:56,140
conditioned by knowledge.
457
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,090
Don't mention it.
458
00:30:11,807 --> 00:30:15,620
And of course, Cecil Taylor made a great impact,
459
00:30:15,620 --> 00:30:19,700
both positive and for the people that liked it,
460
00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:22,823
and negative for the people that hated that type of music.
461
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:28,060
We were talking about how difficult the music was
462
00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:29,000
for a lot of people.
463
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,250
And Cecil said,
464
00:30:30,250 --> 00:30:33,873
the musician prepares, the audience should prepare to.
465
00:30:35,620 --> 00:30:38,070
You know you have to prepare to understand literature,
466
00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:39,200
to understand painting.
467
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,190
Why is music different?
468
00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:42,930
It just scared the hell out of people,
469
00:30:42,930 --> 00:30:45,820
because everybody who grew up thinking jazz is this.
470
00:30:45,820 --> 00:30:48,010
You always know where the beat is.
471
00:30:48,010 --> 00:30:49,730
Even if you don't know anything about harmony,
472
00:30:49,730 --> 00:30:53,300
your brain tells you that the harmony will resolve.
473
00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:55,820
All of those things are suddenly taken away.
474
00:30:55,820 --> 00:30:57,850
And it was terrifying for people.
475
00:30:57,850 --> 00:31:00,233
A lot of people just, what the hell is this?
476
00:31:00,233 --> 00:31:01,813
This isn't even music.
477
00:31:07,130 --> 00:31:08,080
With the avant-garde,
478
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,880
the critics thought it was
479
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,300
just a lot of untalented musicians
480
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:14,183
squawking on their instruments.
481
00:31:15,410 --> 00:31:17,250
Downbeat said that this was poisoning
482
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:19,163
the minds of young musicians.
483
00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:23,300
A lot of older musicians felt that way.
484
00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:26,480
One time, man, I sat in with Max Roach's band,
485
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,763
and he had Clifford Jordan in the band.
486
00:31:30,050 --> 00:31:33,210
Everybody was playing, and Jordan took a solo,
487
00:31:33,210 --> 00:31:34,390
and Freddie took a solo,
488
00:31:34,390 --> 00:31:36,070
and everybody was taking a solo,
489
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:38,420
and then I reached to hit the cymbal,
490
00:31:38,420 --> 00:31:41,480
and looked and Clifford had took my cymbal away.
491
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,872
So I go, like I say, man, why you do that?
492
00:31:43,872 --> 00:31:45,850
You see, man, I got tired of listen to that shit.
493
00:31:45,850 --> 00:31:47,360
What kind of fucking shit is that?
494
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:48,640
How dare you, motherfucker,
495
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,650
come in here and sit in on Max Roach's drums?
496
00:31:51,650 --> 00:31:54,150
Ah man, it was that kind of a thing I used to get.
497
00:31:55,390 --> 00:31:58,260
But eventually Max Roach, in his later years,
498
00:31:58,260 --> 00:32:00,570
who was, you know, the bebop drummer,
499
00:32:00,570 --> 00:32:04,500
the most magisterial of drummers to come out of 1940s,
500
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:06,287
made duet albums with Cecil Taylor.
501
00:32:06,287 --> 00:32:08,983
And he couldn't go further out than that.
502
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,180
But at the time the old guard felt
503
00:32:13,180 --> 00:32:15,200
that they had the right to just dismiss
504
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,070
the avant-garde as charlatans, frauds.
505
00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:19,400
For me, as far as I could see,
506
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,670
there wasn't much mingling between the,
507
00:32:22,670 --> 00:32:26,643
between the established players and avant-garde players.
508
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:32,270
Miles at first was very critical.
509
00:32:32,270 --> 00:32:34,420
He just had nothing good to say about them.
510
00:32:35,290 --> 00:32:39,307
There was a notorious essay in Downbeat about Eric Dolphy.
511
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,520
A friend of mine opened a club in Berlin in '64,
512
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:54,040
and wanted us to play there as an opening,
513
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,830
and he said, could you like bring somebody, name person.
514
00:32:58,830 --> 00:33:01,133
And I said, well Eric might want to play.
515
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:05,943
We were told to open the club in Berlin.
516
00:33:06,830 --> 00:33:08,410
And I said, hey Eric,
517
00:33:08,410 --> 00:33:12,940
And he had the Downbeat on his lap.
518
00:33:12,940 --> 00:33:15,373
And he looked very sad, and he said,
519
00:33:16,430 --> 00:33:20,590
I don't know why Miles put me down like that.
520
00:33:20,590 --> 00:33:22,663
I really like him.
521
00:33:22,663 --> 00:33:26,163
(avant-garde jazz music)
522
00:33:37,202 --> 00:33:40,960
We brought him to this hotel in Berlin.
523
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,110
He ordered ice cream and juice
524
00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:45,980
and Coca Cola and stuff like that.
525
00:33:45,980 --> 00:33:47,080
That was his dinner.
526
00:33:47,950 --> 00:33:51,913
And it turned out later that he was like a heavy diabetic,
527
00:33:55,241 --> 00:33:56,109
He had no clue.
528
00:33:56,109 --> 00:33:57,940
He had no clue that he had it.
529
00:33:57,940 --> 00:34:01,500
He played the first song with us.
530
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:03,150
Then he said, excuse me,
531
00:34:03,150 --> 00:34:06,210
I have to go into the dressing room,
532
00:34:06,210 --> 00:34:09,520
and he didn't come out anymore.
533
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,570
And then I said to Karl, after another few songs,
534
00:34:13,570 --> 00:34:17,500
we have to look where Eric is, and the door opened.
535
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:20,280
And Eric cried out,
536
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,010
on the floor
537
00:34:23,450 --> 00:34:25,840
and he said, help me.
538
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,593
And we immediately brought him to the hospital.
539
00:34:30,462 --> 00:34:32,210
And the doctor told us
540
00:34:32,210 --> 00:34:36,170
that they had never seen so much sugar in anybody's blood.
541
00:34:36,170 --> 00:34:39,193
Like it was just way beyond saving him.
542
00:34:48,377 --> 00:34:51,044
And then we called his mother.
543
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,496
Did he tend to realize that how great he was?
544
00:34:55,496 --> 00:34:56,571
No.
545
00:34:56,571 --> 00:34:58,251
(muffled speaking)
546
00:34:58,251 --> 00:35:00,680
He was always real honest.
547
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,763
He wouldn't say anything.
548
00:35:04,820 --> 00:35:07,180
We never realized either
549
00:35:10,890 --> 00:35:12,797
how well thought of he was,
550
00:35:14,361 --> 00:35:15,528
until he died.
551
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,660
Man, the cat was really a genius.
552
00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:21,750
Here was a genius, right.
553
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:25,410
He was like something never I've ever heard, you know?
554
00:35:25,410 --> 00:35:26,870
I ain't gonna get into Dolphy now,
555
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:28,933
he's beyond words with me,
556
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,953
not only as a supreme musician,
557
00:35:35,850 --> 00:35:39,470
but a human being as which is rare in our day.
558
00:35:39,470 --> 00:35:41,220
And especially in the music business,
559
00:35:41,220 --> 00:35:44,393
where the slogan is dog eat dog.
560
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,680
In New York, it's a certain energy and creativity
561
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,853
that is really kind of hard to explain,
562
00:35:56,515 --> 00:35:58,740
but maybe it's because of, you know,
563
00:35:58,740 --> 00:36:01,900
I, myself, man, I don't believe in,
564
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:04,510
I don't think of competition in music.
565
00:36:04,510 --> 00:36:06,920
You know, I don't think of something being better or worse,
566
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:07,963
it's just different.
567
00:36:09,090 --> 00:36:13,280
And I think that kind of thing brings a certain ego
568
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,120
that is keeping a lot of development
569
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,970
of musicians coming together.
570
00:36:17,970 --> 00:36:20,170
You know, because everyone wants to feel
571
00:36:20,170 --> 00:36:21,720
that they're doing something different
572
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:22,987
than everyone else is doing.
573
00:36:22,987 --> 00:36:25,810
And all the innovators that I've known in my life,
574
00:36:25,810 --> 00:36:27,920
they all were playing their music
575
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,730
and trying to develop in music.
576
00:36:29,730 --> 00:36:31,530
It wasn't to try to be an innovator.
577
00:36:31,530 --> 00:36:32,800
And meeting Ornette Coleman,
578
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,530
coming out of the bebop period,
579
00:36:34,530 --> 00:36:37,430
was like a whole study, which I could see,
580
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:41,543
like even now, I'm still like a disciple of his in music.
581
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,510
Don Cherry was smitten by Ornette.
582
00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:54,330
They played like identical twins,
583
00:36:54,330 --> 00:36:57,120
and that music was created
584
00:36:58,270 --> 00:37:00,620
to the point where you think of Ornette and Don
585
00:37:00,620 --> 00:37:03,100
being always together, but they weren't.
586
00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:05,700
And Don was his own
587
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:10,110
absolutely inventive, unique musician,
588
00:37:10,110 --> 00:37:15,110
who played maybe more perfectly than anyone I'd ever heard.
589
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:18,980
He never lived to the point where anyone got used to him,
590
00:37:18,980 --> 00:37:22,090
and said, oh, you know, Don doing that,
591
00:37:22,090 --> 00:37:24,170
no one ever got used to him.
592
00:37:24,170 --> 00:37:26,900
And I never certainly got used to him.
593
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:31,900
I was in awe of him till the day he was gone and still am.
594
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,850
But he was beautiful.
595
00:37:59,850 --> 00:38:02,000
He came up to our house
596
00:38:03,490 --> 00:38:05,623
for two weeks to do cold turkey,
597
00:38:08,779 --> 00:38:11,427
and he came, but he was already so out of it.
598
00:38:17,859 --> 00:38:19,410
He was beautiful.
599
00:38:19,410 --> 00:38:23,720
Intelligent, and he was fantastic,
600
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:25,870
with a real level of musicianship
601
00:38:25,870 --> 00:38:28,213
and human being like Ornette.
602
00:38:29,710 --> 00:38:32,970
And then he told me then,
603
00:38:32,970 --> 00:38:35,743
going to New York is my downfall.
604
00:38:41,028 --> 00:38:44,040
New York, see like I've been in New York at times
605
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,947
when it was very hard and no place to sleep, no food, no-
606
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:50,480
I mean, even then, I mean,
607
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,130
you feel that New York has some kind of a conscience.
608
00:38:54,610 --> 00:38:56,823
I mean, you go into paying all these dudes.
609
00:38:58,220 --> 00:39:01,980
Karl, me, and Don, play the concert.
610
00:39:01,980 --> 00:39:04,640
And then afterwards he came up and said, Ingrid,
611
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,620
can you lend me some money for a taxi?
612
00:39:07,620 --> 00:39:10,200
And I said, Don, didn't you get paid?
613
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:11,780
He said, no, they don't pay me
614
00:39:11,780 --> 00:39:14,170
because it didn't bring enough audience.
615
00:39:14,170 --> 00:39:15,680
In New York at that time,
616
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,020
there was a level at which black players
617
00:39:18,020 --> 00:39:19,940
were not gonna get what white players were playing
618
00:39:19,940 --> 00:39:20,833
in the same club.
619
00:39:20,833 --> 00:39:23,250
What it amounted to was Ornette decided at one point
620
00:39:23,250 --> 00:39:25,700
that the clubs weren't paying him at what they should.
621
00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:27,207
The club that happened to be the focus of that
622
00:39:27,207 --> 00:39:28,780
was the Five Spot.
623
00:39:28,780 --> 00:39:29,880
We had played there,
624
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,710
and the place was packed every night.
625
00:39:31,710 --> 00:39:34,030
And Ornette had decided that he wasn't gonna work
626
00:39:34,030 --> 00:39:35,920
unless they paid his price.
627
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,270
There's no magic here.
628
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:39,220
You've got a wife and a couple of kids.
629
00:39:40,140 --> 00:39:45,140
Ornette was fighting for musicians being paid better.
630
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,170
It was not for him alone, it was for everybody.
631
00:39:48,170 --> 00:39:49,730
When I retreated in America,
632
00:39:49,730 --> 00:39:51,490
because I was mad about
633
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:54,410
and heard about how my relationship was.
634
00:39:54,410 --> 00:39:57,890
I was reading a paper where I was selling like 3000 records
635
00:39:57,890 --> 00:40:00,650
and I'd be evicted the next month, you see?
636
00:40:00,650 --> 00:40:02,090
Then it doesn't make any sense for me
637
00:40:02,090 --> 00:40:03,403
to be what I thought I was,
638
00:40:03,403 --> 00:40:06,703
that they had made me what I thought I wasn't, you know?
639
00:40:08,873 --> 00:40:11,370
So I just said, okay, you know, I mean,
640
00:40:11,370 --> 00:40:14,110
I grew up without being,
641
00:40:14,110 --> 00:40:17,610
I grew up hungry so I can be hungry now, you know.
642
00:40:17,610 --> 00:40:20,474
It's not gonna be any different, you know.
643
00:40:20,474 --> 00:40:22,910
That was the shock of my life,
644
00:40:22,910 --> 00:40:24,990
as a European,
645
00:40:24,990 --> 00:40:26,460
finding that respectlessness
646
00:40:27,850 --> 00:40:30,550
to these fantastic jazz musicians.
647
00:40:30,550 --> 00:40:35,050
For me, it's the true art form of US.
648
00:40:35,050 --> 00:40:38,090
Jazz could have happened, happened nowhere else.
649
00:40:38,090 --> 00:40:40,160
No respect.
650
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,053
So I said to Karl, I'm going back to Europe.
651
00:40:44,060 --> 00:40:46,470
We went both to Ornette.
652
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:48,690
Ornette was really very insistent.
653
00:40:48,690 --> 00:40:52,590
He said, you gotta stay, you gotta stay, you gotta stay.
654
00:40:52,590 --> 00:40:57,510
It was devastating to see how the musicians were living,
655
00:40:57,510 --> 00:41:02,420
and what was going on and how the music was being treated.
656
00:41:02,420 --> 00:41:05,890
When you see the bands coming to Europe,
657
00:41:05,890 --> 00:41:07,120
and you go to the concerts,
658
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:12,120
and see that glamorous flashy performances they make,
659
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,010
you get an idea in your mind about it.
660
00:41:15,010 --> 00:41:16,563
Oh my they're stars.
661
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:20,110
But then when I came to the States,
662
00:41:20,110 --> 00:41:21,977
and I saw how some of the musicians were living,
663
00:41:21,977 --> 00:41:24,520
and I said, there's something wrong here.
664
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,040
The situation is still the same
665
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,060
for African-American musicians,
666
00:41:28,060 --> 00:41:29,830
or have things gotten better?
667
00:41:29,830 --> 00:41:31,370
Well, I don't see how they can get better
668
00:41:31,370 --> 00:41:32,280
for black musicians
669
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,400
until they get better for black people.
670
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,840
We can't protect our culture
671
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,390
until we can actually alter economic and social institutions
672
00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:42,333
to reflect better our needs and our desires, I think.
673
00:41:43,540 --> 00:41:45,373
The music of the 60's,
674
00:41:46,460 --> 00:41:48,740
it was like the music of the 40's,
675
00:41:48,740 --> 00:41:51,320
except the guys from the 40's,
676
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:52,770
they were doing it from a diff,
677
00:41:52,770 --> 00:41:54,730
they were doing it from the night club,
678
00:41:54,730 --> 00:41:55,690
and that was their thing.
679
00:41:55,690 --> 00:41:58,043
We weren't allowed in the nightclub.
680
00:42:00,580 --> 00:42:03,330
In fact, that was the reason
681
00:42:03,330 --> 00:42:05,803
I formed the Jazz Composers Guild.
682
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:11,450
It, started with me being invited
683
00:42:11,450 --> 00:42:15,540
to Bill Dixon's workshop orchestra.
684
00:42:15,540 --> 00:42:17,280
And there I met Rudd.
685
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,940
It was a very diverse group of personalities,
686
00:42:20,940 --> 00:42:24,960
and was very colorful, I think almost too colorful.
687
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,750
See, I don't have these Bourgeoisie concepts
688
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:29,630
about time and space and death and taxes
689
00:42:29,630 --> 00:42:30,560
and insurance companies.
690
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,143
It's all a bore, but okay, we'll talk about that.
691
00:42:35,090 --> 00:42:36,520
So, okay.
692
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,340
Bill, Bill Dixon, and Cecil
693
00:42:40,340 --> 00:42:41,590
had a great idea.
694
00:42:41,590 --> 00:42:44,850
Why don't artists take this whole thing off the market
695
00:42:44,850 --> 00:42:48,600
and put it in our own hands, have our own recording spaces.
696
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,920
And try to get support going
697
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:52,490
for grants, commissions,
698
00:42:52,490 --> 00:42:55,270
and just through a strength in numbers, you know,
699
00:42:55,270 --> 00:42:59,740
getting foundations to recognize what was happening.
700
00:42:59,740 --> 00:43:02,160
The intention was to further the music
701
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,260
and to better the opportunities for the people involved.
702
00:43:06,260 --> 00:43:08,000
We started to do concerts there,
703
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,237
and of course it started with the Cellar Cafe,
704
00:43:10,237 --> 00:43:12,523
the October Revolution at the Cellar Cafe.
705
00:43:23,478 --> 00:43:26,978
(avant-garde jazz music)
706
00:43:33,420 --> 00:43:34,920
October revolution.
707
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,820
I didn't know anything about that actually.
708
00:43:37,820 --> 00:43:41,130
At the time, once we started rehearsing, I said,
709
00:43:41,130 --> 00:43:43,230
what are we rehearsing for?
710
00:43:43,230 --> 00:43:44,450
And they were explaining to me
711
00:43:44,450 --> 00:43:48,570
that there's a bunch of venues in New York in October,
712
00:43:48,570 --> 00:43:51,843
we're gonna just bombard the city with new music.
713
00:43:53,090 --> 00:43:56,540
It was about, there is no environment for this music,
714
00:43:56,540 --> 00:43:58,180
so let's create one.
715
00:43:58,180 --> 00:43:59,320
They made a real difference
716
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:00,700
in the music that we were playing.
717
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:04,420
In fact, they made a lot of people aware
718
00:44:04,420 --> 00:44:06,240
of what we were doing.
719
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:07,073
They really did.
720
00:44:08,730 --> 00:44:11,270
The October Revolution is all part of a sense
721
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:13,250
of creating a movement,
722
00:44:13,250 --> 00:44:15,390
of creating some kind of guild of musicians
723
00:44:15,390 --> 00:44:17,750
for those who are basically alienated
724
00:44:17,750 --> 00:44:19,443
by the mainstream jazz world.
725
00:44:20,350 --> 00:44:23,223
Dixon and Taylor saw the long-term objective here.
726
00:44:24,070 --> 00:44:26,103
Together we stand, divided we fall.
727
00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:28,820
But some of the guys didn't get it.
728
00:44:28,820 --> 00:44:31,560
And I think that was the demise of the Guild.
729
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,770
It lasted about six months, but the guys were too hungry.
730
00:44:34,770 --> 00:44:35,770
I'm not gonna mention names,
731
00:44:35,770 --> 00:44:38,580
but a couple of guys signed a contract here, or did this.
732
00:44:38,580 --> 00:44:40,180
Undermined the whole principle.
733
00:44:40,180 --> 00:44:41,510
You've got to put teeth into it.
734
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:42,720
If you're gonna go on strike,
735
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:45,450
you can't go back and sign with the man.
736
00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:47,510
But also another thing was the fact
737
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:51,090
that the personalities involved,
738
00:44:51,090 --> 00:44:56,090
it was really hard to get everybody to conform as a unit.
739
00:44:56,350 --> 00:44:57,650
Bill, can we bring back
740
00:44:57,650 --> 00:44:59,800
the community spirit to the music?
741
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,200
No, absolutely not.
742
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:02,250
Because you know why?
743
00:45:03,380 --> 00:45:06,020
Young musicians don't want to go through that.
744
00:45:06,020 --> 00:45:08,180
They all want to be famous.
745
00:45:08,180 --> 00:45:09,860
But I mean, if I had to have money
746
00:45:09,860 --> 00:45:12,833
and behaved the way these cats, no way, keep it.
747
00:45:22,117 --> 00:45:25,510
I had no place to live when I arrived in the city.
748
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:28,500
And so I stayed,
749
00:45:28,500 --> 00:45:33,000
I stayed overnight in Grand Central Station on a bench
750
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,810
and met a lot of homeless people.
751
00:45:34,810 --> 00:45:38,900
And we would go and live in a different place every night.
752
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:42,263
And some of us were mentally ill.
753
00:45:43,420 --> 00:45:47,190
A lot of us would wake up screaming, but that was okay.
754
00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:48,260
I totally accepted it.
755
00:45:48,260 --> 00:45:50,340
I thought this was life in New York City.
756
00:45:50,340 --> 00:45:51,660
And it was fine.
757
00:45:51,660 --> 00:45:54,550
I mean, everybody was okay in my book.
758
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:55,710
I just wanted to be there.
759
00:45:55,710 --> 00:45:57,110
Everything was fine,
760
00:45:57,110 --> 00:46:01,200
whatever I had to eat, wherever I had to sleep,
761
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,813
whatever I heard was perfect.
762
00:46:16,104 --> 00:46:18,333
But the most interesting years of all
763
00:46:18,333 --> 00:46:21,370
were the early 60's, that was it.
764
00:46:21,370 --> 00:46:24,140
That's when the best music got created.
765
00:46:24,140 --> 00:46:25,380
Everyone knew what they were doing.
766
00:46:25,380 --> 00:46:27,490
They were at the height of their powers.
767
00:46:27,490 --> 00:46:29,520
There was an individual,
768
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,270
there was individuality then,
769
00:46:32,270 --> 00:46:36,440
and there were better feelings too, among musicians.
770
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:37,800
You didn't have, I mean,
771
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,517
there wasn't a competitive spirit in a certain kind of way.
772
00:46:40,517 --> 00:46:44,180
And we were all friends, all went to parties together,
773
00:46:44,180 --> 00:46:46,480
had open house.
774
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,503
You know, it was different.
775
00:46:53,430 --> 00:46:55,280
There was a great spiritual underground,
776
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,320
people knew, you know, what was happening then.
777
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:59,500
Everybody knew what was happening.
778
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:02,420
So the real main gigs in town, there weren't that many,
779
00:47:02,420 --> 00:47:04,619
where we could play, like Slug's,
780
00:47:04,619 --> 00:47:05,750
a few places like that.
781
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:07,700
Everybody knew and turned up.
782
00:47:07,700 --> 00:47:09,030
It was support, you know.
783
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:11,800
We all knew each other, we all played with each other.
784
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,130
There was a period when I lived on 3rd Street,
785
00:47:15,130 --> 00:47:18,890
between 1st and 2nd, and Sun Ra lived on the block.
786
00:47:18,890 --> 00:47:20,080
I lived on the block.
787
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,120
Dave Burrell lived on the block.
788
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,620
Kind of hard to remember the sequences
789
00:47:25,620 --> 00:47:27,130
of all this stuff, because-
790
00:47:27,130 --> 00:47:28,460
Norris Jones.
791
00:47:28,460 --> 00:47:30,470
Noah Howard lived across the street.
792
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:32,540
Rick Colbeck lived down the street,
793
00:47:32,540 --> 00:47:35,210
Pharaoh Sanders lived around the corner.
794
00:47:35,210 --> 00:47:37,840
Dave Burrell was living right across the street,
795
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,890
he and Bobby Kapp.
796
00:47:39,890 --> 00:47:43,310
And so this was Marion Brown's apartment.
797
00:47:43,310 --> 00:47:45,510
Marion sorta lived at Archie's.
798
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:50,013
You had all these musicians in a concentrated area.
799
00:47:51,850 --> 00:47:56,023
Marion Brown, Dave Burrell, myself, Bobby Kapp.
800
00:47:58,100 --> 00:47:59,200
That was a good group.
801
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,000
We were always over at each other's houses,
802
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:11,153
just messing around.
803
00:48:13,060 --> 00:48:15,640
And Marion Brown could just carry on
804
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,733
a musical conversation for hours.
805
00:48:20,091 --> 00:48:22,420
I found out he can be an intellectual,
806
00:48:22,420 --> 00:48:24,173
and be a jazz musician too.
807
00:48:25,390 --> 00:48:27,500
We had this conversations a lot,
808
00:48:27,500 --> 00:48:29,663
about what is the pianist's role?
809
00:48:30,809 --> 00:48:34,309
(avant-garde jazz music)
810
00:48:40,426 --> 00:48:43,970
In my head, I was doing whatever I felt like doing,
811
00:48:43,970 --> 00:48:46,003
whenever I felt like doing it.
812
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,213
Marion Brown, he was on my first quintet record.
813
00:49:15,210 --> 00:49:17,740
Marion had this really, you know, lyrical thing.
814
00:49:17,740 --> 00:49:20,080
He could float over everything.
815
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:21,823
He was an introspective guy.
816
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:28,560
When I first came to New York,
817
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,830
I didn't even know Marion Brown was a musician,
818
00:49:30,830 --> 00:49:32,890
because he didn't have a horn, he wasn't playing.
819
00:49:32,890 --> 00:49:34,290
He was just hanging out.
820
00:49:34,290 --> 00:49:35,870
He was just hanging out and hanging out,
821
00:49:35,870 --> 00:49:37,680
just hanging out with everybody.
822
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,110
And I never seen him with a horn.
823
00:49:39,110 --> 00:49:40,290
I didn't even know what he was.
824
00:49:40,290 --> 00:49:42,040
I just thought he just liked music.
825
00:49:43,250 --> 00:49:46,490
And then we was up in Archie's playing,
826
00:49:46,490 --> 00:49:47,400
just me and Archie.
827
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,060
And then Marion comes up there and he say, man,
828
00:49:49,060 --> 00:49:51,073
I bought myself an alto saxophone.
829
00:49:52,550 --> 00:49:54,023
And I looked at him, you know, like,
830
00:49:54,980 --> 00:49:56,947
but I didn't know his history.
831
00:49:56,947 --> 00:49:58,050
He had been a player before.
832
00:49:58,050 --> 00:49:59,440
I didn't know that.
833
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,770
He turned out to be a hell of a musician,
834
00:50:01,770 --> 00:50:05,000
but I thought he had just started playing.
835
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,280
So I kinda was like, kinda cool with him, you know?
836
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,580
'Cause I didn't come to New York to play with amateurs.
837
00:50:09,580 --> 00:50:12,123
I came to New York to play with professional players.
838
00:50:20,490 --> 00:50:22,730
One time I was playing with Albert,
839
00:50:22,730 --> 00:50:24,310
and we were playing and
840
00:50:25,670 --> 00:50:28,850
somebody came over to the drum set, saying man, you know,
841
00:50:28,850 --> 00:50:30,950
Coltrane just walked in.
842
00:50:30,950 --> 00:50:31,970
I went, yeah, where where?
843
00:50:31,970 --> 00:50:33,647
I was trying to find out where he was,
844
00:50:33,647 --> 00:50:35,223
and Albert started playing.
845
00:50:36,690 --> 00:50:38,870
I'm sure John wasn't trying to intimidate nobody,
846
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:40,010
but the room was full.
847
00:50:40,010 --> 00:50:41,000
A lot of people was in the room.
848
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:41,833
He couldn't get in a place.
849
00:50:41,833 --> 00:50:44,190
So he got a chair and he brought it out
850
00:50:44,190 --> 00:50:47,303
in the middle of the aisle so he could see.
851
00:50:49,410 --> 00:50:51,503
And man, I saw John.
852
00:50:52,630 --> 00:50:54,339
Man, he said, man, that you see that?
853
00:50:54,339 --> 00:50:55,172
I say, what?
854
00:50:55,172 --> 00:50:56,270
You say Coltrane was out there, man.
855
00:50:56,270 --> 00:50:58,090
He say, why did he come to my gig, man?
856
00:50:58,090 --> 00:50:59,480
I say, man, he's just checking you out.
857
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,360
He say, man, why did he come to my gig?
858
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:02,230
He pulled the chair all way up
859
00:51:02,230 --> 00:51:03,890
in the middle of the aisle and shit,
860
00:51:03,890 --> 00:51:06,110
and say, man, I could hardly even play.
861
00:51:06,110 --> 00:51:09,117
I said, look, man, I don't know why he did that.
862
00:51:09,117 --> 00:51:10,000
And he say, man,
863
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:11,470
he looked like he was looking right down
864
00:51:11,470 --> 00:51:12,720
the bell of my horn, man.
865
00:51:14,890 --> 00:51:16,910
Well, anytime John would show anyplace,
866
00:51:16,910 --> 00:51:18,657
Trane would show anyplace (indistinct).
867
00:51:20,505 --> 00:51:21,460
Trane is in the house man.
868
00:51:21,460 --> 00:51:24,030
Chief, we'd call him Chief, Chief is in the house.
869
00:51:24,030 --> 00:51:25,410
It was really cool, man,
870
00:51:25,410 --> 00:51:27,900
'cause that shows you the kind of cat Coltrane was,
871
00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:28,733
you know what I mean?
872
00:51:28,733 --> 00:51:30,720
He was always looking for something different,
873
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:32,330
looking for something different to do.
874
00:51:32,330 --> 00:51:34,761
I mean, he wasn't never satisfied
875
00:51:34,761 --> 00:51:36,730
with just doing what he was doing.
876
00:51:36,730 --> 00:51:38,840
If you followed John Coltrane,
877
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,960
every record took you to a place
878
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,500
that was way far from the last one.
879
00:51:44,500 --> 00:51:47,390
You really were able to follow from
880
00:51:47,390 --> 00:51:48,840
the guy who came up playing
881
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,590
in second rate R and B bands in Philadelphia
882
00:51:51,590 --> 00:51:55,323
to the pinnacle of jazz as Miles's sideman.
883
00:51:58,468 --> 00:52:03,273
To Giant Steps, to Love Supreme, which everybody loved.
884
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,660
Huge success, to Ascension,
885
00:52:07,660 --> 00:52:09,870
which scared off the entire audience
886
00:52:09,870 --> 00:52:11,320
that had bought Love Supreme.
887
00:52:21,850 --> 00:52:23,950
Coltrane troubled the old guard,
888
00:52:23,950 --> 00:52:25,480
and the old guard critics the most.
889
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,470
Because if you didn't dig Ornette,
890
00:52:27,470 --> 00:52:28,540
if you didn't dig Cecil,
891
00:52:28,540 --> 00:52:31,340
you could just say that guy doesn't know what he's doing.
892
00:52:31,340 --> 00:52:33,190
You couldn't say that about Coltrane.
893
00:52:33,190 --> 00:52:35,330
You couldn't say Coltrane can't play,
894
00:52:35,330 --> 00:52:39,103
because Coltrane was already a superstar in jazz.
895
00:52:40,707 --> 00:52:43,800
For the avant-garde, it was liberating.
896
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,460
It just changed everything.
897
00:52:46,460 --> 00:52:48,850
This was the baddest band in jazz.
898
00:52:48,850 --> 00:52:50,410
The John Coltrane Quartet.
899
00:52:50,410 --> 00:52:51,243
That was it.
900
00:52:51,243 --> 00:52:53,190
I mean, you know, Miles Davis was before that,
901
00:52:53,190 --> 00:52:55,350
but John had the banner then,
902
00:52:55,350 --> 00:52:59,170
and he was the baddest thing that ever walked.
903
00:52:59,170 --> 00:53:03,290
John Coltrane was the father of the scene,
904
00:53:03,290 --> 00:53:05,100
the father of all of us.
905
00:53:05,100 --> 00:53:09,410
And he was our spiritual leader,
906
00:53:09,410 --> 00:53:11,973
but he was a tangible person
907
00:53:11,973 --> 00:53:15,230
that you could actually befriend.
908
00:53:15,230 --> 00:53:18,890
Coltrane was the Parker of our era.
909
00:53:18,890 --> 00:53:22,160
It's hard not to want to play
910
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:23,140
what he played.
911
00:53:23,140 --> 00:53:24,120
Even now I mean,
912
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,563
I listen him and just incredible,
913
00:53:28,259 --> 00:53:30,300
he always gives me something new.
914
00:53:30,300 --> 00:53:33,100
Archie Shepp was working at this department store
915
00:53:33,100 --> 00:53:36,430
during the day and he didn't want to do that kind of stuff.
916
00:53:36,430 --> 00:53:39,620
And actually John lifted him out of that gloomy shit.
917
00:53:39,620 --> 00:53:42,470
John gave him the shot, put him on a couple of records,
918
00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:44,770
took him on tour a couple of times
919
00:53:44,770 --> 00:53:46,293
and got him started, you know?
920
00:53:54,050 --> 00:53:57,750
Bob Thiele, being a producer at Impulse at the time,
921
00:53:57,750 --> 00:54:01,010
had said that if he would listen to John Coltrane,
922
00:54:01,010 --> 00:54:03,370
he would be recording everybody.
923
00:54:03,370 --> 00:54:04,750
John was doing that for everybody.
924
00:54:04,750 --> 00:54:06,150
He did the same with Albert.
925
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:11,920
He used to pay people's rent and their shit.
926
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,070
If they couldn't pay rent, they would call John
927
00:54:14,070 --> 00:54:15,110
and he would send them money.
928
00:54:15,110 --> 00:54:17,820
I mean, this is the kind of guy he was.
929
00:54:17,820 --> 00:54:20,163
So I didn't even have a clue he was sick.
930
00:54:21,330 --> 00:54:22,163
And then I found out
931
00:54:22,163 --> 00:54:24,023
that he had this history of liver cancer.
932
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,353
But I never noticed that until the last gig we played.
933
00:54:29,410 --> 00:54:30,820
And for the first time ever,
934
00:54:30,820 --> 00:54:34,373
I seen John sit down and play, and he never sat down.
935
00:54:35,796 --> 00:54:37,996
And three months later, after that, he died.
936
00:54:40,510 --> 00:54:41,760
While John was alive,
937
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:43,710
everybody was trying to play this music.
938
00:54:43,710 --> 00:54:47,450
Everybody was playing avant-garde, the music was there.
939
00:54:47,450 --> 00:54:49,990
And you talking about gigs being scarce,
940
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:52,593
man, we wasn't working hardly nowhere at that point.
941
00:54:53,430 --> 00:54:55,500
It was in a bad time when John left the music,
942
00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:59,520
because the biggest name in jazz was gone,
943
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,643
and that whole thing went with him.
944
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:03,393
It killed it.
945
00:55:04,371 --> 00:55:07,538
(mournful jazz music)
946
00:55:14,982 --> 00:55:18,149
(audience applauding)
947
00:55:23,479 --> 00:55:26,729
(jazz saxophone music)
948
00:55:49,410 --> 00:55:51,130
When Albert came, in Cleveland,
949
00:55:51,130 --> 00:55:53,630
Albert Ayler came from Cleveland, everybody knew him,
950
00:55:53,630 --> 00:55:55,750
the minute, we were all somehow begged, borrowed, stole,
951
00:55:55,750 --> 00:55:57,720
and got up to the top floor of Philharmonic Hall
952
00:55:57,720 --> 00:55:59,367
when he came out,
953
00:55:59,367 --> 00:56:00,870
and we heard him in the dressing room
954
00:56:00,870 --> 00:56:01,850
before he came on stage,
955
00:56:01,850 --> 00:56:05,160
Cecil was already started playing with this group,
956
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:06,700
and we heard Albert in the dressing room,
957
00:56:06,700 --> 00:56:08,023
and that towering sound.
958
00:56:21,202 --> 00:56:22,073
He was a saxophone player, man,
959
00:56:22,073 --> 00:56:24,230
that we all are thinking
960
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:26,540
we just broke the sound barrier, wow.
961
00:56:26,540 --> 00:56:29,763
Here's a guy that's gonna take us to another planet.
962
00:56:31,832 --> 00:56:33,182
Is that what we want to do?
963
00:56:34,370 --> 00:56:36,550
A lot of people you see would talk about
964
00:56:36,550 --> 00:56:37,810
what they heard Albert Ayler do,
965
00:56:37,810 --> 00:56:39,810
but they weren't willing to participate.
966
00:56:46,270 --> 00:56:48,970
Nobody got successful, hardly at that time.
967
00:56:53,030 --> 00:56:56,273
Albert, as great as he was, died with practically nothing.
968
00:56:57,180 --> 00:56:58,013
The East River.
969
00:57:07,010 --> 00:57:09,610
I mean, every time when you were around Albert,
970
00:57:09,610 --> 00:57:13,993
you always felt that you were around a spirit.
971
00:57:23,556 --> 00:57:24,903
Not everybody gets the message,
972
00:57:24,903 --> 00:57:28,723
or wanted to, other believers.
973
00:57:32,037 --> 00:57:35,010
The ever seeing eye is always watching us,
974
00:57:35,010 --> 00:57:37,910
that we must be well aware of this,
975
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:39,503
because it's getting late now.
976
00:58:02,635 --> 00:58:05,100
And there's a very talented man, you see,
977
00:58:05,100 --> 00:58:09,940
daring, but convinced about what he was doing, you know.
978
00:58:09,940 --> 00:58:13,147
If you're not convinced, boy, they'll destroy you.
979
00:58:13,147 --> 00:58:16,503
You have to really be pretty well sure of what you're doing.
980
00:58:32,910 --> 00:58:34,460
None of us are alike.
981
00:58:37,180 --> 00:58:38,943
None of us are alike.
982
00:58:41,020 --> 00:58:46,020
We have many examples of individual pursuits
983
00:58:46,590 --> 00:58:48,473
that enlightened all of us,
984
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:52,693
either with the light,
985
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:54,953
or with the darkness.
986
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,050
I started to think in terms
987
00:59:01,050 --> 00:59:04,363
of what I'd like to do as an individual.
988
00:59:05,820 --> 00:59:10,703
I encountered some spirits who happen to feel the same way.
989
00:59:11,980 --> 00:59:16,590
And from there as the AACM, we proceeded.
990
00:59:16,590 --> 00:59:19,380
The AACM stands for
991
00:59:19,380 --> 00:59:23,980
the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians.
992
00:59:23,980 --> 00:59:28,460
And our mission from the very beginning in Chicago,
993
00:59:28,460 --> 00:59:33,460
was to create and perform unrecorded new music.
994
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:40,373
And it was headed by none other than Muhal Richard Abrams.
995
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:45,340
We did have a rule.
996
00:59:45,340 --> 00:59:48,403
One rule within the AACM.
997
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:52,073
You had to do your own music,
998
00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:57,530
no other music except yours.
999
00:59:57,530 --> 00:59:58,740
The Association
1000
00:59:58,740 --> 01:00:00,220
for the Advancement of Creative Musicians,
1001
01:00:00,220 --> 01:00:05,220
was a group of spiritualists who were trying to search
1002
01:00:05,940 --> 01:00:08,573
for what is the meaning of music?
1003
01:00:09,700 --> 01:00:11,130
Nobody had any money.
1004
01:00:11,130 --> 01:00:16,130
We all come from poverty and no one would give an inch
1005
01:00:16,730 --> 01:00:19,180
with respect to their aesthetics and their music.
1006
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:23,510
The problem was
1007
01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:26,440
to produce a community from a group of people
1008
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:30,580
who really had very diverse ideas about sound.
1009
01:00:30,580 --> 01:00:31,910
What brought them together,
1010
01:00:31,910 --> 01:00:34,190
what brought them together was a shared sense
1011
01:00:34,190 --> 01:00:36,850
that they should be responsible for each other.
1012
01:00:36,850 --> 01:00:39,240
I come from a family who believed in unions,
1013
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:44,240
strong unions, and I looked at the AACM as like a union.
1014
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,230
Yeah, when I saw the AACM in Chicago,
1015
01:00:47,230 --> 01:00:50,660
and the fact that they were organized in a very formal way
1016
01:00:50,660 --> 01:00:54,060
and presenting themselves on a weekly, monthly basis,
1017
01:00:54,060 --> 01:00:56,850
and having meetings and memberships and all of that.
1018
01:00:56,850 --> 01:01:00,660
And I came back to Saint Louis and got our guys together
1019
01:01:00,660 --> 01:01:04,140
who were having our informal jam sessions and said,
1020
01:01:04,140 --> 01:01:08,293
why don't we become a branch of the AACM in Saint Louis?
1021
01:01:15,491 --> 01:01:17,280
And someone said, no, wait a minute.
1022
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:21,750
Let's do our own thing here in Saint Louis.
1023
01:01:21,750 --> 01:01:24,670
And so we started the Black Artists Group.
1024
01:01:24,670 --> 01:01:29,670
So now outside of Chicago and Saint Louis,
1025
01:01:30,350 --> 01:01:32,580
nobody really still weren't familiar
1026
01:01:32,580 --> 01:01:33,640
with what we were doing.
1027
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:34,630
And I have to say,
1028
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:38,300
maybe Europe got more familiar and acquainted
1029
01:01:38,300 --> 01:01:41,473
with this music before the US.
1030
01:01:55,950 --> 01:02:00,793
The Art Ensemble was invited to Paris, France,
1031
01:02:01,990 --> 01:02:04,823
but it wasn't The Art Ensemble until we got there.
1032
01:02:05,970 --> 01:02:09,930
And when we got there, then we had to give a name.
1033
01:02:09,930 --> 01:02:13,843
And that was the name we gave, Art Ensemble of Chicago.
1034
01:02:23,310 --> 01:02:28,310
So the whole scene from Chicago went to Paris
1035
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,740
and they fell over the whole city.
1036
01:02:30,740 --> 01:02:33,220
There wasn't a theater, there wasn't a room
1037
01:02:33,220 --> 01:02:35,570
where you could play, where they wouldn't play.
1038
01:02:37,810 --> 01:02:39,440
I left for Paris.
1039
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,540
I had a one-way ticket, I had $50 in my pocket.
1040
01:02:42,540 --> 01:02:45,650
I took a taxi cab then to Montparnasse,
1041
01:02:45,650 --> 01:02:47,290
which took something like $30.
1042
01:02:47,290 --> 01:02:49,140
So I had $20 left.
1043
01:02:49,140 --> 01:02:51,423
My motto was, play or die.
1044
01:02:53,090 --> 01:02:57,143
Paris had been invaded by the Midwest and the Northeast.
1045
01:02:58,740 --> 01:03:02,233
Everybody was there and it was like paradise.
1046
01:03:03,070 --> 01:03:05,340
And every night the audience would have
1047
01:03:06,220 --> 01:03:08,780
everybody that you could think of.
1048
01:03:08,780 --> 01:03:10,163
Cecil Taylor was there,
1049
01:03:12,670 --> 01:03:15,280
and Ornette Coleman was there.
1050
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,650
This film was made during two days in Paris,
1051
01:03:17,650 --> 01:03:19,290
spent with Ornette Coleman.
1052
01:03:20,695 --> 01:03:22,573
Ornette Coleman helped us quite a bit.
1053
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:26,220
Ornette Coleman came to our concerts,
1054
01:03:26,220 --> 01:03:28,930
and it was my first opportunity to meet the great man.
1055
01:03:28,930 --> 01:03:31,290
And he asked us to play the first half
1056
01:03:31,290 --> 01:03:33,290
on a concert that he was doing in Paris.
1057
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:35,670
All sold out.
1058
01:03:35,670 --> 01:03:37,440
Thousands of people there.
1059
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:42,180
Well, Braxton, Jenkins, and Smith and McCall opened for him.
1060
01:03:42,180 --> 01:03:44,103
He was a big champion of all of us.
1061
01:03:45,170 --> 01:03:48,990
It was a symbolic gesture to endorse us.
1062
01:03:48,990 --> 01:03:50,440
And after the concert,
1063
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,670
he invited me to live with him in New York,
1064
01:03:53,670 --> 01:03:55,520
because I had never been to New York.
1065
01:03:56,470 --> 01:03:57,870
When I was living in Europe.
1066
01:03:57,870 --> 01:04:02,100
And a lot of the expatriate musicians who lived there
1067
01:04:02,100 --> 01:04:03,650
told me the same thing.
1068
01:04:03,650 --> 01:04:05,980
They felt like they were giving out a lot,
1069
01:04:05,980 --> 01:04:08,180
but they couldn't feel anything coming back.
1070
01:04:09,350 --> 01:04:11,720
A lot of musicians who live in Europe
1071
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,730
always feel like they have to be recharged,
1072
01:04:14,730 --> 01:04:17,163
and the recharging happens when you come home.
1073
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:21,240
After Coltrane's death,
1074
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:24,510
so many jazz musicians moved to Europe.
1075
01:04:24,510 --> 01:04:29,490
In the early 1970s, they started coming back.
1076
01:04:29,490 --> 01:04:32,450
A lot of players from Chicago and Saint Louis
1077
01:04:32,450 --> 01:04:35,190
moved to New York from Paris.
1078
01:04:35,190 --> 01:04:37,420
New York was the center of the world,
1079
01:04:37,420 --> 01:04:39,780
especially the music world.
1080
01:04:39,780 --> 01:04:42,110
We wanted to be a part of that.
1081
01:04:42,110 --> 01:04:46,250
They had gone over to Europe and made a really big splash.
1082
01:04:46,250 --> 01:04:50,310
The Art Ensemble, and Braxton as well.
1083
01:04:50,310 --> 01:04:52,110
Then they came back.
1084
01:04:52,110 --> 01:04:56,320
But now the guys have a name.
1085
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:58,103
They are established.
1086
01:05:01,060 --> 01:05:04,150
Then Columbia University
1087
01:05:04,150 --> 01:05:06,593
invited us to do a whole series of concerts.
1088
01:05:07,460 --> 01:05:11,512
Three days of all AACM music.
1089
01:05:11,512 --> 01:05:13,043
Muhal was elated.
1090
01:05:14,587 --> 01:05:17,630
And Muhal is doing concerts everywhere.
1091
01:05:17,630 --> 01:05:20,653
Muhal Richard Abrams did a concert in a church one day,
1092
01:05:21,820 --> 01:05:23,410
in a downtown club the next,
1093
01:05:23,410 --> 01:05:24,770
in an art gallery,
1094
01:05:24,770 --> 01:05:26,420
always doing something different.
1095
01:05:28,030 --> 01:05:31,303
The movement from the Midwest stimulated the whole scene.
1096
01:05:33,290 --> 01:05:37,100
This whole experience with Muhal and the AACM,
1097
01:05:37,100 --> 01:05:39,690
all of that set me up
1098
01:05:40,740 --> 01:05:43,010
for what was to come.
1099
01:05:43,010 --> 01:05:44,423
And what was to come?
1100
01:05:45,650 --> 01:05:47,639
Sam Rivers.
1101
01:05:47,639 --> 01:05:50,889
(tribal drums beating)
1102
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:58,900
Rolling?
Nobody hired Sam.
1103
01:05:58,900 --> 01:06:00,370
Rolling.
1104
01:06:00,370 --> 01:06:02,353
Nobody would hire us in clubs.
1105
01:06:03,250 --> 01:06:07,700
Sam always had musicians that would gravitate to him.
1106
01:06:07,700 --> 01:06:09,800
He had an open space,
1107
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,670
and so he opened up a loft.
1108
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:16,080
Suddenly musicians started taking control,
1109
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:18,650
and they started turning their apartments,
1110
01:06:18,650 --> 01:06:21,090
in areas that nobody wanted to live in,
1111
01:06:21,090 --> 01:06:23,900
into lofts, musical spaces.
1112
01:06:23,900 --> 01:06:26,329
Sam Rivers had Studio Rivbea.
1113
01:06:26,329 --> 01:06:27,410
I happened to run into this woman on day,
1114
01:06:27,410 --> 01:06:29,530
when I was just talking about, I need a place.
1115
01:06:29,530 --> 01:06:30,363
I need a place to do this.
1116
01:06:30,363 --> 01:06:33,320
She said okay, I just bought this building.
1117
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:35,760
And I'll rent you out the first floor.
1118
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:37,060
And years later, I found out
1119
01:06:37,060 --> 01:06:38,870
that it was Robert De Niro's mother.
1120
01:06:38,870 --> 01:06:40,037
I didn't know it at that time.
1121
01:06:40,037 --> 01:06:41,970
She never mentioned it at all.
1122
01:06:41,970 --> 01:06:43,709
Robert Mapplethorpe was on the fourth floor.
1123
01:06:43,709 --> 01:06:44,903
We were good friends.
1124
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:47,773
He was a good friend of mine, Miro, yeah.
1125
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:50,840
He gave me one painting.
1126
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:52,736
I don't know if it was stolen.
1127
01:06:52,736 --> 01:06:54,630
I never did find out where it is.
1128
01:06:54,630 --> 01:06:57,147
So whoever's got my Miro painting out there.
1129
01:07:02,060 --> 01:07:05,480
It's on there, Samuel Rivers, 1969, boom.
1130
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,890
Sam had a lot of connections.
1131
01:07:07,890 --> 01:07:09,500
He was a little older than we were.
1132
01:07:09,500 --> 01:07:12,980
And he had done the Blue Note recordings.
1133
01:07:12,980 --> 01:07:15,180
He had worked with Cecil Taylor.
1134
01:07:15,180 --> 01:07:18,156
He had created a whole new music scene.
1135
01:07:18,156 --> 01:07:18,989
Miles Davis.
1136
01:07:18,989 --> 01:07:20,680
Miles Davis.
1137
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:22,300
I played with Charlie Parker, too.
1138
01:07:22,300 --> 01:07:25,810
So musicians gravitated
1139
01:07:25,810 --> 01:07:27,257
to Studio Rivbea.
1140
01:07:29,604 --> 01:07:32,750
Studio Rivbea was a family run affair.
1141
01:07:32,750 --> 01:07:37,140
The publicity was run by Bea Rivers, Sam's wife.
1142
01:07:37,140 --> 01:07:41,390
The people at the door collecting the money was Sam's kids.
1143
01:07:41,390 --> 01:07:46,390
Sam presented anyone whose music he felt was presentable.
1144
01:07:47,540 --> 01:07:49,523
And you got paid for the gig.
1145
01:07:50,660 --> 01:07:53,350
The only thing he said to me ever
1146
01:07:53,350 --> 01:07:55,580
in all the years we played together.
1147
01:07:55,580 --> 01:07:56,923
Keep the energy up.
1148
01:07:58,000 --> 01:07:58,833
That was it.
1149
01:07:58,833 --> 01:08:02,090
The loft scene, once that got started,
1150
01:08:02,090 --> 01:08:04,270
it took off no matter where it was.
1151
01:08:04,270 --> 01:08:07,350
At Ladies' Fort, Joe Lee Wilson's place,
1152
01:08:07,350 --> 01:08:09,400
down on Bond Street.
1153
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:13,240
Studio Wish, where Warren Smith had his place.
1154
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:14,290
The loft that I had
1155
01:08:14,290 --> 01:08:17,540
was kind of centrally located on 21st street.
1156
01:08:17,540 --> 01:08:20,750
Max Roach was using it as a rehearsal spot.
1157
01:08:20,750 --> 01:08:24,370
And when people heard him playing with this group,
1158
01:08:24,370 --> 01:08:27,080
they would walk over the rooftops and down the fire escape
1159
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:28,703
and climb in the back window.
1160
01:08:30,594 --> 01:08:32,290
And my partner, Anton Reed said,
1161
01:08:32,290 --> 01:08:34,823
we ought to make this into a presentation.
1162
01:08:48,086 --> 01:08:50,920
It was Max Roach's idea with all those percussionists,
1163
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,970
form a group like Boom Boom, was all percussion.
1164
01:08:54,970 --> 01:08:58,893
So we began rehearsing every week with that for a year.
1165
01:09:01,740 --> 01:09:05,000
The fact that we were rehearsing all the time
1166
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,890
and attracting audiences to the rehearsals,
1167
01:09:08,890 --> 01:09:13,890
kind of made the spontaneous theatrical presentation,
1168
01:09:13,990 --> 01:09:16,380
just explode where, you know,
1169
01:09:16,380 --> 01:09:18,537
that's how the whole loft scene developed.
1170
01:09:24,220 --> 01:09:28,060
What made it work, people's tastes had changed.
1171
01:09:28,060 --> 01:09:31,163
They wanted a more informal kind of setting.
1172
01:09:32,740 --> 01:09:35,860
People would open up their home
1173
01:09:36,770 --> 01:09:41,060
because this wasn't like traditional jazz.
1174
01:09:41,060 --> 01:09:42,563
This was art music.
1175
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,740
That was the heyday of the avant-garde,
1176
01:09:48,740 --> 01:09:50,793
was the loft jazz scene.
1177
01:09:51,930 --> 01:09:54,943
Real estate in Manhattan changed all of that.
1178
01:09:56,860 --> 01:10:01,640
So these lofts were flourishing and I don't think anybody
1179
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,233
was paying more than a hundred dollars a month.
1180
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,380
I had a friend who was a real estate lawyer.
1181
01:10:08,380 --> 01:10:11,380
He said, you artists come in,
1182
01:10:11,380 --> 01:10:14,480
and you civilize a place with your talent, you know,
1183
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:18,530
whether it be visual arts or theater arts
1184
01:10:18,530 --> 01:10:20,380
or musical arts or whatever.
1185
01:10:20,380 --> 01:10:24,670
And the whole area becomes unaffordable to those who
1186
01:10:24,670 --> 01:10:26,443
brought this activity about.
1187
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:30,963
That's what killed the loft jazz scene.
1188
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:40,010
New York was a mystery,
1189
01:10:41,403 --> 01:10:42,236
a mystery.
1190
01:10:43,670 --> 01:10:46,020
I started to play this kind of music,
1191
01:10:46,020 --> 01:10:47,933
in a different way, obviously.
1192
01:10:49,460 --> 01:10:52,880
For me, it's a mystery what I did,
1193
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:54,993
because sometimes I don't think I do it.
1194
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:00,933
For me, music is everything.
1195
01:11:03,850 --> 01:11:05,460
I don't have barriers.
1196
01:11:11,698 --> 01:11:13,430
It's simple.
1197
01:11:13,430 --> 01:11:18,430
I consider myself an international musician
1198
01:11:18,890 --> 01:11:21,493
who plays music.
1199
01:11:23,335 --> 01:11:26,835
(ethereal chimes ringing)
1200
01:11:31,340 --> 01:11:35,740
I got influenced by broadcast, East Germany,
1201
01:11:35,740 --> 01:11:38,213
at an an age of 11 or 12 years.
1202
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:44,960
And I remember the quality depended always on the weather.
1203
01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:49,223
This was first time I was listening, audibly.
1204
01:11:53,440 --> 01:11:56,413
It was a positive shock for me.
1205
01:12:00,150 --> 01:12:03,543
Jazz, you know, during the Nazi time was forbidden.
1206
01:12:04,930 --> 01:12:07,500
The stupid Nazis, as Adolf Hitler,
1207
01:12:07,500 --> 01:12:09,443
there was no jazz music.
1208
01:12:10,455 --> 01:12:13,230
And the Americans, when they had won the war,
1209
01:12:13,230 --> 01:12:17,860
the first Americans I saw were the black GIs.
1210
01:12:17,860 --> 01:12:20,217
And so I had my first jam with a black GI,
1211
01:12:20,217 --> 01:12:22,310
when I was eight years old.
1212
01:12:22,310 --> 01:12:24,050
They changed my life.
1213
01:12:24,050 --> 01:12:26,620
They come to Europe, they freed me from the Nazis,
1214
01:12:26,620 --> 01:12:29,220
have given me this incredible music.
1215
01:12:29,220 --> 01:12:31,630
The situation in Germany, you know,
1216
01:12:31,630 --> 01:12:35,640
was so down and people also need
1217
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:40,580
to have a new feeling of life.
1218
01:12:40,580 --> 01:12:43,104
We found jazz music.
1219
01:12:43,104 --> 01:12:44,760
I mean, if you think about the jazz musicians,
1220
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:46,890
with the exception of Django Reinhardt, of course,
1221
01:12:46,890 --> 01:12:48,250
and a couple of others
1222
01:12:48,250 --> 01:12:50,260
who came along in the 30's and 40's,
1223
01:12:50,260 --> 01:12:52,560
they were mostly playing imitation
1224
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:55,540
of the American players who had toured there.
1225
01:12:55,540 --> 01:12:58,520
The avant-garde didn't give you that option.
1226
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:00,880
And suddenly you could be a European player,
1227
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:03,980
not a European player, imitating an American player,
1228
01:13:03,980 --> 01:13:06,310
but using your own culture.
1229
01:13:06,310 --> 01:13:07,150
Where do you come from?
1230
01:13:07,150 --> 01:13:08,453
What is your folk music?
1231
01:13:09,430 --> 01:13:13,020
Europeans, we're not obliged you see to play blues.
1232
01:13:13,020 --> 01:13:14,580
And what that means is now,
1233
01:13:14,580 --> 01:13:16,150
we can get up here and improvise.
1234
01:13:16,150 --> 01:13:17,400
It doesn't have to swing,
1235
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:19,910
but it is an improvised music
1236
01:13:19,910 --> 01:13:22,540
that obviously has roots in jazz,
1237
01:13:22,540 --> 01:13:24,380
but we don't have to jump through a certain hoop
1238
01:13:24,380 --> 01:13:26,430
so somebody can say, is this jazz or not?
1239
01:13:31,090 --> 01:13:35,130
The Germans were happy with the title of free jazz.
1240
01:13:35,130 --> 01:13:36,770
That was the only period
1241
01:13:36,770 --> 01:13:41,140
the word free jazz had little meaning.
1242
01:13:41,140 --> 01:13:43,600
I hated it afterwards.
1243
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:46,933
But at that time it was like we needed that.
1244
01:13:48,290 --> 01:13:50,253
England was more radical.
1245
01:13:51,210 --> 01:13:53,073
They called it free improvisation.
1246
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:55,560
The German guys used to call English jazz
1247
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:57,720
washing machine music,
1248
01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:00,320
playing around, around, around, around in circles.
1249
01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:04,720
The Dutch was the most, let's say eclectic.
1250
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,420
We in Holland, we were the treaters or traitors.
1251
01:14:07,420 --> 01:14:08,700
We were the motherfuckers.
1252
01:14:08,700 --> 01:14:10,223
We still played the blues.
1253
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:14,110
No way England was playing the blues.
1254
01:14:14,110 --> 01:14:16,430
The Dutch seemed to have been more inclusive.
1255
01:14:16,430 --> 01:14:18,370
They seem to have been able to take
1256
01:14:18,370 --> 01:14:20,860
from whatever experience they've had.
1257
01:14:20,860 --> 01:14:24,230
The English school operated more from a subtractive base
1258
01:14:24,230 --> 01:14:27,410
where we excluded various elements.
1259
01:14:27,410 --> 01:14:31,410
I mean the Dutch thing also includes humorous elements.
1260
01:14:31,410 --> 01:14:32,813
I am a complete fraud.
1261
01:14:34,510 --> 01:14:36,333
My piano playing is poor.
1262
01:14:37,630 --> 01:14:41,183
Well, that's all true, but I don't care anymore.
1263
01:14:45,290 --> 01:14:46,220
Good answer.
1264
01:14:46,220 --> 01:14:48,320
In Holland, we were just in between,
1265
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:51,090
I think it has to do with living in a little country.
1266
01:14:51,090 --> 01:14:53,080
Misha Mengelberg and Han had invited me
1267
01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:54,330
to do things in Holland.
1268
01:14:54,330 --> 01:14:58,120
And they'd asked me about who else is playing in England.
1269
01:14:58,120 --> 01:14:59,443
Who else is interesting?
1270
01:15:01,150 --> 01:15:04,670
So the exchange between the European countries
1271
01:15:04,670 --> 01:15:07,330
was always fun, and competition is good,
1272
01:15:07,330 --> 01:15:09,383
and you have to fight on stage.
1273
01:15:10,250 --> 01:15:12,570
That's what I learned from my English colleague,
1274
01:15:12,570 --> 01:15:14,413
or Dutch colleagues,
1275
01:15:15,510 --> 01:15:17,933
be onstage and do your thing.
1276
01:15:42,172 --> 01:15:43,180
The first time I brought someone,
1277
01:15:43,180 --> 01:15:44,690
I couldn't believe, you know,
1278
01:15:44,690 --> 01:15:48,620
that's a very loud saxophone.
1279
01:15:48,620 --> 01:15:50,893
Yeah, it was a bit special, yeah.
1280
01:15:51,940 --> 01:15:54,210
Han Bennink, a force of nature.
1281
01:15:54,210 --> 01:15:57,500
Mister Han Bennink, very famous Dutch drummer.
1282
01:15:57,500 --> 01:16:01,613
Yes, I mean, he is, as everybody knows,
1283
01:16:02,700 --> 01:16:03,533
quite a case.
1284
01:16:03,533 --> 01:16:06,190
People ho see me playing sometimes,
1285
01:16:06,190 --> 01:16:09,500
they think I'm a sort of wild maniac,
1286
01:16:09,500 --> 01:16:13,110
but I make only little tiny little lovely things.
1287
01:16:13,110 --> 01:16:15,660
The reason we gravitated towards one another
1288
01:16:15,660 --> 01:16:18,613
was more to do with the shared attitudes.
1289
01:16:19,570 --> 01:16:21,240
That was more important
1290
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:24,083
than any sense of national identity, I think.
1291
01:16:26,110 --> 01:16:29,043
It's much more about those strong individuals.
1292
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:43,787
Please say hello to Sun Ra.
1293
01:16:43,787 --> 01:16:44,620
This really is special.
1294
01:16:44,620 --> 01:16:45,830
(audience applauding and cheering)
1295
01:16:45,830 --> 01:16:49,343
Now who are some of your early influences.
1296
01:16:50,470 --> 01:16:53,963
Well, the planets, the Creator,
1297
01:16:55,170 --> 01:16:59,713
mythical gods and real ones, people, flowers,
1298
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:03,980
everything in nature, my inspiration.
1299
01:17:03,980 --> 01:17:05,260
Musicians get their inspiration
1300
01:17:05,260 --> 01:17:07,710
really from environmental things.
1301
01:17:07,710 --> 01:17:10,250
And all musicians are inspiration to me,
1302
01:17:10,250 --> 01:17:12,240
no matter what style they're playing.
1303
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:14,093
By all means, let's do it.
1304
01:17:14,093 --> 01:17:15,453
Thank you.
1305
01:17:15,453 --> 01:17:19,786
(audience applauding and cheering)
1306
01:17:23,253 --> 01:17:25,060
At that period of time,
1307
01:17:25,060 --> 01:17:29,213
there was not a possibility to play in an orchestra.
1308
01:17:30,100 --> 01:17:32,330
Sun Ra's orchestra was the only orchestra
1309
01:17:32,330 --> 01:17:33,350
you could get into,
1310
01:17:33,350 --> 01:17:36,960
and I was very interested in just the whole concept
1311
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:40,427
of playing in a big band and orchestra, you know,
1312
01:17:40,427 --> 01:17:41,580
and he was wonderful,
1313
01:17:41,580 --> 01:17:44,763
because he wrote a lot of his own music.
1314
01:17:47,660 --> 01:17:48,760
I had an opportunity
1315
01:17:50,990 --> 01:17:52,170
to work with Sun Ra.
1316
01:17:52,170 --> 01:17:53,510
I smile because of the fact
1317
01:17:53,510 --> 01:17:55,943
that it was such an incredible experience.
1318
01:17:58,310 --> 01:18:00,853
Sun Ra said to me, oh, here.
1319
01:18:03,637 --> 01:18:05,083
He gives me my space suit.
1320
01:18:07,329 --> 01:18:08,890
I wasn't hip to this.
1321
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:13,983
But he finally convinced me.
1322
01:18:16,160 --> 01:18:19,190
I did not fully understand at that particular time
1323
01:18:19,190 --> 01:18:22,883
Sun Ra's philosophy, but I learnt later to understand it.
1324
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:37,450
I liked Sun Ra's band.
1325
01:18:37,450 --> 01:18:39,740
I liked everything that was going on
1326
01:18:39,740 --> 01:18:40,910
musically with the band,
1327
01:18:40,910 --> 01:18:43,830
but I didn't like the cult part of the band.
1328
01:18:43,830 --> 01:18:47,450
The musicians were great, great players,
1329
01:18:47,450 --> 01:18:50,920
but they wouldn't play with nobody else, but Sun Ra.
1330
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:54,810
Well, he was the first one to really introduce me
1331
01:18:54,810 --> 01:18:57,330
in the high forms of music, you know,
1332
01:18:57,330 --> 01:18:59,240
past what you may would say
1333
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:02,050
what Bird and Monk and the fellows were doing.
1334
01:19:02,050 --> 01:19:04,580
I didn't think anybody was ahead of them
1335
01:19:04,580 --> 01:19:06,960
until I met Sun Ra, you know.
1336
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:09,690
See music is a universal language,
1337
01:19:09,690 --> 01:19:11,693
and it represents the people of Earth.
1338
01:19:13,090 --> 01:19:15,140
One day, it will happen
1339
01:19:15,140 --> 01:19:17,570
that a voice from another dimension
1340
01:19:17,570 --> 01:19:18,743
will speak to Earth.
1341
01:19:19,850 --> 01:19:22,740
You might as well practice and be prepared for it.
1342
01:19:22,740 --> 01:19:25,100
Sun Ra was famous for having
1343
01:19:25,100 --> 01:19:26,820
raw and rigorous practice sessions.
1344
01:19:26,820 --> 01:19:28,897
Right, we had long sessions.
1345
01:19:30,020 --> 01:19:32,513
Every night, every day,
1346
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:35,310
rehearsal.
1347
01:19:35,310 --> 01:19:39,030
Sun Ra is a perfect example of somebody
1348
01:19:39,030 --> 01:19:40,570
who really comes out of left field.
1349
01:19:40,570 --> 01:19:41,940
I mean, you can make jokes that he, yeah,
1350
01:19:41,940 --> 01:19:44,500
he comes from another planet, but he, you know,
1351
01:19:44,500 --> 01:19:46,250
he comes from doo-wop for heaven sake.
1352
01:19:46,250 --> 01:19:47,990
He comes from swing.
1353
01:19:47,990 --> 01:19:51,180
One point, he played piano with Fletcher Henderson's band.
1354
01:19:51,180 --> 01:19:53,330
He really went back in history,
1355
01:19:53,330 --> 01:19:55,580
and he's one of the first guys to use synthesizer,
1356
01:19:55,580 --> 01:19:56,830
and electric instruments.
1357
01:19:59,310 --> 01:20:01,070
The thing that has made jazz
1358
01:20:01,070 --> 01:20:03,260
such an enthralling experience
1359
01:20:03,260 --> 01:20:05,670
for over a hundred years worldwide,
1360
01:20:05,670 --> 01:20:07,913
is that it has never sat still.
1361
01:20:09,570 --> 01:20:11,860
My story is not part of history
1362
01:20:12,930 --> 01:20:16,450
because history repeats itself.
1363
01:20:16,450 --> 01:20:18,363
But my story is endless.
1364
01:20:19,380 --> 01:20:21,740
It never repeats itself.
1365
01:20:21,740 --> 01:20:22,573
Why should it?
1366
01:20:26,140 --> 01:20:30,340
As a creative artist, you have some choices.
1367
01:20:30,340 --> 01:20:31,980
You get to be a point where people
1368
01:20:31,980 --> 01:20:33,430
are looking to you for music.
1369
01:20:34,530 --> 01:20:36,100
You can go forward,
1370
01:20:36,100 --> 01:20:37,553
if you have any ideas.
1371
01:20:38,790 --> 01:20:41,823
If you don't have any ideas, then you go back.
1372
01:20:53,330 --> 01:20:54,860
The forms are very simple here.
1373
01:20:54,860 --> 01:20:58,140
We're talking about 12 bar blues or 32 bars,
1374
01:20:58,140 --> 01:20:59,760
I got rhythm or something.
1375
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:02,020
To rehash that over and over again,
1376
01:21:02,020 --> 01:21:03,430
it makes me want to regurgitate.
1377
01:21:03,430 --> 01:21:04,613
You can't use it, man.
1378
01:21:04,613 --> 01:21:07,840
It's like going back, digging up the dead, man.
1379
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:10,430
You know, I mean, what validity does it have
1380
01:21:10,430 --> 01:21:13,660
with us today, man, from that period?
1381
01:21:13,660 --> 01:21:15,790
It's been done so many times, so well,
1382
01:21:15,790 --> 01:21:17,460
that we don't all have to do the same thing
1383
01:21:17,460 --> 01:21:18,293
over and over again, you know,
1384
01:21:18,293 --> 01:21:19,853
it's like reinventing the wheel.
1385
01:21:28,660 --> 01:21:32,130
It's really almost lost.
1386
01:21:32,130 --> 01:21:35,650
I mean, unless it's the musicians themselves,
1387
01:21:35,650 --> 01:21:38,473
some who are aware of that era, nobody else is.
1388
01:21:39,730 --> 01:21:42,630
It's part of the very conservative attitude
1389
01:21:42,630 --> 01:21:45,390
towards new art and new expression,
1390
01:21:45,390 --> 01:21:46,990
and new ways of expressing yourself.
1391
01:21:46,990 --> 01:21:50,990
If somebody wants to keep forms of expression,
1392
01:21:50,990 --> 01:21:53,420
so tied up, it's unhealthy.
1393
01:21:53,420 --> 01:21:56,750
And it's not for the betterment of the society.
1394
01:21:56,750 --> 01:22:00,010
And then you have messengers,
1395
01:22:00,010 --> 01:22:01,710
your creative people,
1396
01:22:01,710 --> 01:22:04,813
that define the language in a different way.
1397
01:22:06,263 --> 01:22:08,560
It's all about creativity.
1398
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,220
And the history of the greatest players
1399
01:22:11,220 --> 01:22:13,923
has always been about taking the music forward,
1400
01:22:14,790 --> 01:22:17,440
fighting between this camp and that camp.
1401
01:22:17,440 --> 01:22:18,910
It doesn't make sense.
1402
01:22:18,910 --> 01:22:20,170
It's all one music.
1403
01:22:20,170 --> 01:22:21,533
We're all in this.
1404
01:22:22,490 --> 01:22:25,730
We need to be stronger than ever with the music.
1405
01:22:25,730 --> 01:22:27,890
Because I think it's a good time now man.
1406
01:22:27,890 --> 01:22:30,610
What's happening with the politics is going on.
1407
01:22:30,610 --> 01:22:31,620
What's happening with the country?
1408
01:22:31,620 --> 01:22:33,032
How screwed up the country is,
1409
01:22:33,032 --> 01:22:35,380
the administration that we have.
1410
01:22:37,820 --> 01:22:39,950
For a long time, I thought that,
1411
01:22:39,950 --> 01:22:41,680
very naive I suppose on my part,
1412
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:44,050
that something as vital as jazz music
1413
01:22:44,050 --> 01:22:46,203
would sort of take care of itself.
1414
01:22:47,270 --> 01:22:50,800
Somebody has to sort of help jazz stay in focus.
1415
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:52,133
I don't know who that is.
1416
01:22:53,550 --> 01:22:55,360
A guy like Ornette Coleman doesn't come along
1417
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:58,080
every five years, or Charlie Parker,
1418
01:22:58,080 --> 01:22:59,343
or John Coltrane.
1419
01:23:01,450 --> 01:23:02,650
Maybe the next guy
1420
01:23:04,440 --> 01:23:07,030
is about 10 now, right?
1421
01:23:07,030 --> 01:23:08,000
Runny nose kid,
1422
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,710
out playing basketball on the blacktop now.
1423
01:23:10,710 --> 01:23:12,260
That'll be our next big Jazzer.
1424
01:23:22,674 --> 01:23:25,841
(ethereal jazz music)
1425
01:25:55,440 --> 01:25:58,273
(crowd murmuring)
1426
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:09,730
When you hear music after it's over,
1427
01:27:09,730 --> 01:27:11,570
it's gone in the air.
1428
01:27:11,570 --> 01:27:13,543
You can never capture it again.
102431
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