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O God, grant us a vision of our city,
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fair she might be.
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A city of justice,
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where none shall prey on others.
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A city of plenty,
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where vice and poverty shall cease to fester.
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A city of brotherhood
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where all success shall be founded on service,
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and honor shall be given to a nobleman alone.
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A city of peace
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where order shall not rest on force,
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but on the love of all for the city,
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the great mother of the common light and weal.
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I don't see this
as the story of a pop group.
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I see this as a story of a city
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that once upon a time
was shiny and bold and revolutionary,
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and then suddenly, 30-odd years later,
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is shiny and revolutionary all over again.
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And at the heart of this transformation,
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is a bunch of groups,
and one group in particular.
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Go further back in time,
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further back through time,
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to another set of memories.
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Time, you see?
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5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
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I can remember very precisely
what Manchester was like in the mid-'70s.
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It felt like a piece of history
that had been spat out.
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This had been the historic center
of the modern world.
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We invented the industrial revolution in this town.
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And yet, even though we did,
we also invented these conditions.
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It was really grimy and dirty...
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a dirty old town.
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You were always looking for beauty
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because it was such an ugly place...
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whether, again, on the subconscious level.
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I mean, I don't think I saw a tree
until I was about 9.
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Here are your playgrounds,
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your porches and sun lounges
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and whatever else you can use them for.
40
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I just remember factories and...
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nothing that was pretty, nothing.
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I like that!
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I remember the first time I was in Manchester,
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seeing all these hou...
end-to-end terrace houses.
45
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And then the next time you went,
it was just a pile of rubble.
46
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Then the next time you went,
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there was sort of, like,
all this building work.
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And then, by the time you were in your teens,
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there was this big concrete fortress...
50
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quite futuristic at the time.
51
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Then, of course, concrete cancer set in,
52
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and it looks horrible.
53
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I was born in 1956.
54
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I lived in my grandparents' house,
55
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and they used to talk
about the war all the time.
56
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My grandparents' history had been bombed.
57
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The house had gone.
58
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I remember we had a room there,
59
00:04:04,672 --> 00:04:07,505
and it was full of, like,
gas masks, and...
60
00:04:07,575 --> 00:04:10,738
tin helmets, British flags,
and, you know, old radio sets,
61
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paraphernalia for the war.
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I'm at Bernadine Salford Grammar School.
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Um, when we're 11,
64
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you get less for murder, don't you?
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I guess, living in Salford,
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you're a bit of a nobody, really.
67
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You know, you didn't have much chance
of progressing in the world, really.
68
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You were thought of as factory fodder.
69
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So, um, we just sort of wasted our time together.
70
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We were really, really normal, daft beer boys,
71
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I suppose you'd have to say.
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I had some myriad instructions
while I was working,
73
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and basically,
it was reading the evening news.
74
00:04:44,311 --> 00:04:48,179
When I was going through the adverts in the classified,
75
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just scanning for anything of interest,
76
00:04:50,317 --> 00:04:53,013
and the Sex Pistols 50p,
Lesser Free Trade Hall,
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I thought,
"That looks interesting."
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I thought it was shit.
It was like a car crash.
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It was like, "Oh, my God.",
I've never seen anything like it in me life.
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I mean, I'd been to see most groups...
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you know, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin.
82
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I'd never seen anything as chaotic
or as exciting
83
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and as... rebellious.
84
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It was how I felt.
85
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You know, you just want to trash everything.
86
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It was a right racket, you know,
and you thought...
87
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you just thought,
"Fucking hell, I could do that."
88
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You know, I could just about do that.
89
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We... We'd formed a band then,
that night, there and then.
90
00:05:45,506 --> 00:05:46,905
We formed a group.
91
00:05:46,974 --> 00:05:48,202
It's easy to form a group.
92
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It's all the rest that's difficult.
93
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We went to see the second Sex Pistols gig,
94
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when the Buzzcocks supported them.
95
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And, um, we were in it then.
96
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We had a meeting with them on Friday evening
because they said,
97
00:06:03,591 --> 00:06:06,424
"But we'd like to start a band,
but we need some help."
98
00:06:06,494 --> 00:06:08,962
And because, as I say,
punk being an inclusive thing,
99
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and we needed all the...
100
00:06:10,431 --> 00:06:13,662
all the best similar minded people
that we could have,
101
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you know, to make it, uh, a growing concern.
102
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We advertised for a drummer and singer.
103
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One guy called and he didn't sound mad.
104
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I said, "What's your name?"
He went, "Ian."
105
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I said, "Ian who?"
"Ian Curtis"
106
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I said, "Oh."
107
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Because there was two guys called The Two Ians.
108
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They advertised for a singer,
and Ian answered it.
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We met in the pub in Sale.
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Looking at him, you think,
Christ, you know.
111
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Quite frightening-Iooking guy:
Leather pants,
112
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combat jacket with "Hate" on the back,
113
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getting daggers from the locals,
114
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like,
"What the hell is this? What's he?"
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Pretty dangerous thing to do in 1976 Manchester.
116
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I said, "Oh, The Two Ians, right?
117
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We met you at the Clash gig the other day."
Or whatever, you know...
118
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And I was going, you know,
like, punk ideals, yeah:
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Being married, boring.
120
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He went,
"Oh, I'm married."
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Yeah, he shows me his wedding ring.
122
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We thought...
"You're such a nice guy."
123
00:07:02,082 --> 00:07:03,379
I thought,
"Oh, yeah, it doesn't matter."
124
00:07:03,450 --> 00:07:05,247
He's like,
"Yeah, yeah, that's me, that's me."
125
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I said,
"All right, yeah, yeah.
126
00:07:06,487 --> 00:07:07,818
Yeah, all right, you've got the job."
127
00:07:07,888 --> 00:07:09,583
And that was it, over the phone.
128
00:07:22,670 --> 00:07:28,133
The first set of material we wrote
was just... was aping punk, really.
129
00:07:28,208 --> 00:07:30,642
Completely aping it and doing it really badly.
130
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Don't know what I'm doing,
don't know where I'm going
131
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Leading me to ruin,
I should have traded you in
132
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Yeah, you think you're something,
133
00:07:47,828 --> 00:07:50,194
But you're no good for me
134
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
135
00:07:52,933 --> 00:07:54,298
Fuck off, fuck off
136
00:07:54,368 --> 00:07:55,801
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
137
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Bollocks, bollocks
138
00:07:57,004 --> 00:08:00,405
You know, these really dreadful...
139
00:08:03,477 --> 00:08:05,308
dreadful, dreadful songs.
140
00:08:05,379 --> 00:08:06,676
No good
141
00:08:06,747 --> 00:08:09,682
Na na na na na na na na, no good
142
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I get on the phone.
143
00:08:17,758 --> 00:08:22,491
I expected some sort of oafish punk type...
144
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And it was very mild-mannered,
very chatty Ian.
145
00:08:27,868 --> 00:08:37,805
The first gig that I had with them
was the last night at the Electric Circus.
146
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The Electric Circus is one of the places that we...
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hired from bemused hippies on their quiet night
to put on, uh, emerging punk rock.
148
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Can you explain to me
why you come to the Electric Circus?
149
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Because it's the best place
where they put punk rock bands on.
150
00:08:57,231 --> 00:08:58,630
Because it's got a great atmosphere.
151
00:08:58,699 --> 00:09:01,361
Looks like he just come out of Risley
for the day, don't it?
152
00:09:01,435 --> 00:09:02,493
He won't go see it.
153
00:09:02,569 --> 00:09:04,537
Bottles from plastic pumps.
154
00:09:05,606 --> 00:09:07,631
I want you to do something for me.
155
00:09:07,708 --> 00:09:10,268
Because look at me now,
I'm nothing.
156
00:09:10,344 --> 00:09:12,005
That's what punk is...
157
00:09:12,079 --> 00:09:13,740
You can start going and really enjoy yourself,
158
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you know, jump about a bit, let yourself go.
Why not?
159
00:09:16,583 --> 00:09:18,778
It became a punk club, and... and...
160
00:09:18,852 --> 00:09:22,185
and absolutely a very important part
of the whole landscape.
161
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And then suddenly,
we were saying good-bye to it
162
00:09:24,124 --> 00:09:25,523
in an emotional weekend do,
163
00:09:25,592 --> 00:09:28,686
that was recorded rather pitifully by Virgin Records.
164
00:09:34,368 --> 00:09:37,701
And, yeah,
The Warsaw, and the, um,
165
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"Remember Rudolph Hess" thing,
and all that kind of nonsense.
166
00:09:40,941 --> 00:09:43,000
At the time when any of that happened,
167
00:09:43,077 --> 00:09:46,376
those of us within it had not a moment's doubt
168
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that it was anything dicey.
169
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You know, it just...
you just sort of trusted,
170
00:09:50,884 --> 00:09:54,320
somehow, the instincts of locals
that it was not dicey.
171
00:09:54,388 --> 00:09:55,912
Can't buy everything, that's true
172
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Only one thing wrong with that
173
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What it don't buy I don't use
174
00:10:09,169 --> 00:10:13,265
Some guy at work gave me a couple of books.
175
00:10:13,340 --> 00:10:15,900
One was called House of Dolls,
176
00:10:15,976 --> 00:10:19,434
and I knew it was about the Nazis,
but I didn't read it.
177
00:10:19,513 --> 00:10:21,344
And I just flipped through the pages.
178
00:10:21,415 --> 00:10:25,283
It was the brothel that soldiers went to.
179
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And I thought,
"Well, it's pretty bad taste,
180
00:10:28,088 --> 00:10:32,081
but it's quite punk."
181
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And everyone I told the name to went,
"That's a great name."
182
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It sounds too neat and tidy,
but it almost seems to be
183
00:10:38,098 --> 00:10:40,726
that it all came when they had the name.
184
00:10:45,706 --> 00:10:48,766
It was like Roxy Music or Velvet Underground.
185
00:10:48,842 --> 00:10:50,707
You know, you knew instantly
from the moment it happened,
186
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it was one of those names.
187
00:10:52,379 --> 00:10:53,607
At that stage,
188
00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:56,706
when we made our first record,
An Ideal for Living,
189
00:10:56,784 --> 00:10:58,752
we just were making this music,
190
00:10:58,819 --> 00:11:00,787
and we wanted people to hear it.
191
00:11:00,854 --> 00:11:04,449
And it was very much punk ethos
of do-it-yourself, independence.
192
00:11:04,525 --> 00:11:05,787
Forget big labels,
193
00:11:05,859 --> 00:11:08,760
just small, you know, cottage industries.
194
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,804
I'd actually forgotten
that Ian borrowed the money.
195
00:11:22,876 --> 00:11:25,970
God, if I did it now,
my wife would kill me.
196
00:11:26,046 --> 00:11:29,778
So how he got away with it then
is unbelievable, you know.
197
00:11:29,850 --> 00:11:32,614
So we banged it down, heard it in the studio.
198
00:11:32,686 --> 00:11:33,948
We thought it sounded great.
199
00:11:34,021 --> 00:11:37,457
A couple of weeks later, we got the vinyl.
200
00:11:37,524 --> 00:11:38,684
You know, Ideal For Living,
201
00:11:38,759 --> 00:11:41,592
I draw on the sleeve.
202
00:11:41,662 --> 00:11:43,152
"All right, I know what we'll do.
203
00:11:43,230 --> 00:11:47,326
We'll take it to Pip's,
a local club that we go."
204
00:11:47,401 --> 00:11:50,165
Went to the deejay...
"Hey, mate, play our record.
205
00:11:50,237 --> 00:11:51,829
It's us, you know, us."
206
00:11:51,905 --> 00:11:53,338
This guy's like,
"No, fuck off."
207
00:11:53,407 --> 00:11:54,669
"No, no, come on, come on.
208
00:11:54,741 --> 00:11:56,641
It's us.
We've been coming in for years, bloke."
209
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:58,610
So those people on the dance floor...
210
00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,944
he puts it on, and they listen to it.
211
00:12:02,015 --> 00:12:03,983
And the pressing was so bad,
212
00:12:04,051 --> 00:12:07,543
it was, like, completely muffled...
213
00:12:07,621 --> 00:12:10,647
so quiet, you wouldn't believe it.
214
00:12:10,724 --> 00:12:12,715
And it just cleared the dance floor.
215
00:12:12,793 --> 00:12:15,956
Everyone...
Everyone just walks off,
216
00:12:16,029 --> 00:12:17,997
and he took it off halfway through.
217
00:12:18,065 --> 00:12:22,529
We were like,
"Oh, shit. What have we done?"
218
00:12:22,603 --> 00:12:23,968
We didn't play for six months.
219
00:12:24,037 --> 00:12:25,197
We couldn't get a gig.
220
00:12:25,272 --> 00:12:28,105
Nobody would give us a gig as Joy Division.
221
00:12:28,175 --> 00:12:29,472
It was really difficult.
222
00:12:29,543 --> 00:12:31,511
I think they thought we were yobs,
which we were.
223
00:12:31,578 --> 00:12:34,672
He spurred us on
to rehearse and rehearse and rehearse,
224
00:12:34,748 --> 00:12:38,479
and write and write and write,
and get really, really tight,
225
00:12:38,552 --> 00:12:41,578
so that when we did get a gig
we would show the bastards.
226
00:12:41,655 --> 00:12:44,283
We used to rehearse twice a week.
227
00:12:44,358 --> 00:12:49,021
And in those three and two hours,
we'd invariably get a song.
228
00:12:49,096 --> 00:12:50,563
One.
229
00:12:50,631 --> 00:12:53,566
We had an enormous factory floor to ourselves.
230
00:12:53,634 --> 00:12:56,762
In the winter,
we used to just brush all the rubbish
231
00:12:56,837 --> 00:13:00,637
to one end of the room
and set fire to it to just keep warm.
232
00:13:05,379 --> 00:13:08,746
We were all on our own island,
what we're doing,
233
00:13:08,815 --> 00:13:10,976
and we just really made sure
234
00:13:11,051 --> 00:13:14,919
that what we were doing sounded great.
235
00:13:14,988 --> 00:13:17,684
So I didn't pay attention
to what the others were doing.
236
00:13:17,758 --> 00:13:19,157
When I played low,
I couldn't hear anything.
237
00:13:19,226 --> 00:13:21,786
I saw when I played high,
I could pick it out,
238
00:13:21,862 --> 00:13:24,126
because of the row ,
because Barney's amp was really loud.
239
00:13:24,197 --> 00:13:27,530
Then Ian just latched onto you playing high,
240
00:13:27,601 --> 00:13:29,068
and he'd say,
"That sounds good when you play high."
241
00:13:29,136 --> 00:13:30,797
Barney plays guitar.
242
00:13:30,871 --> 00:13:33,567
"We should work on that.
That sounds really distinctive."
243
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,202
Just a happy accident like that
gave us our sound, you know.
244
00:13:40,414 --> 00:13:43,349
Ian always had a box of words,
245
00:13:43,417 --> 00:13:46,409
and we just pulled some words out
and started singing them,
246
00:13:46,486 --> 00:13:47,953
so we already had them, really,
247
00:13:48,021 --> 00:13:51,821
because he would be at home
writing every night anyway.
248
00:13:51,892 --> 00:13:54,156
They had, like,
a "Battle of the Bands" night
249
00:13:54,227 --> 00:13:56,195
for young bands that were just starting out.
250
00:14:00,667 --> 00:14:04,535
I remember Paul Morley being there in a band.
251
00:14:04,604 --> 00:14:06,128
Kevin Cummins was in his band,
252
00:14:06,206 --> 00:14:07,764
I think Richard Boon was in it.
253
00:14:07,841 --> 00:14:10,309
It was like a joke band,
you know, having a laugh.
254
00:14:10,377 --> 00:14:14,973
Everybody, including Joy Division,
turned out to be...
255
00:14:15,048 --> 00:14:16,140
to be, you know, to win.
256
00:14:16,216 --> 00:14:18,514
You know, like, some weird prototype X Factor.
257
00:14:18,585 --> 00:14:20,485
This is when I first saw the other side of Ian.
258
00:14:20,554 --> 00:14:21,680
Ian was a really lovely,
259
00:14:21,755 --> 00:14:23,985
really nice, polite, intelligent guy.
260
00:14:25,759 --> 00:14:28,592
If he didn't get what he wanted
through being like that,
261
00:14:28,662 --> 00:14:31,426
he would explode into this kind of frenzied...
262
00:14:31,498 --> 00:14:32,590
Grr!...
263
00:14:32,666 --> 00:14:34,429
You know, frenzied thing.
264
00:14:34,501 --> 00:14:36,992
Because that's the only way
he could get what he wanted.
265
00:14:37,070 --> 00:14:39,800
I remember him kicking the door down
to their dressing room,
266
00:14:39,873 --> 00:14:41,670
and going to Paul Morley and Kevin Cummins,
267
00:14:41,742 --> 00:14:43,437
them going,
"You're not fucking going on.
268
00:14:43,510 --> 00:14:45,501
You're not fucking going on.
We'll kill you.
269
00:14:45,579 --> 00:14:49,709
If you go on, we'll bowl you.
We're going on."
270
00:14:49,783 --> 00:14:54,011
Ian had previously gone up earlier in the night
to Tony Wilson to complain.
271
00:14:54,087 --> 00:14:57,318
Called him a cunt, you know.
He says, "Cunt you."
272
00:14:57,391 --> 00:14:58,983
Tony was like,
"Why, why, why, darling?
273
00:14:59,059 --> 00:15:00,458
What have I done, darling?"
274
00:15:00,527 --> 00:15:02,688
He'd be like,
"Well, you won't put us on your..."
275
00:15:02,763 --> 00:15:05,027
Tony had a TV program then.
276
00:15:05,098 --> 00:15:06,190
I didn't answer him,
277
00:15:06,266 --> 00:15:09,133
but I know I remember thinking, you know,
278
00:15:09,202 --> 00:15:11,227
"You're next on the list, you fucking idiot."
279
00:15:11,705 --> 00:15:13,332
I spend a lot of my days working out
280
00:15:13,407 --> 00:15:16,399
how I could possibly explain to people
how bizarre this is,
281
00:15:16,476 --> 00:15:19,377
that this man would suddenly come to be involved.
282
00:15:19,446 --> 00:15:20,743
Tony Wilson reports.
283
00:15:20,814 --> 00:15:23,442
The Southwark, Lambeth,
and Lewisham Area Health Authority
284
00:15:23,517 --> 00:15:25,849
is the largest single health authority
in the country.
285
00:15:25,919 --> 00:15:27,944
Welcome to the circus...
286
00:15:30,590 --> 00:15:32,057
Whew!
287
00:15:32,125 --> 00:15:36,357
It was like seeing an alien
with tentacles and eight eyes,
288
00:15:36,430 --> 00:15:38,057
really, when I first met Tony Wilson.
289
00:15:38,131 --> 00:15:39,428
He was just like from another planet.
290
00:15:39,499 --> 00:15:42,263
He was a show-biz one, you know.
He was a star.
291
00:15:42,335 --> 00:15:46,101
Tony had So it Goes,
one of the only platforms
292
00:15:46,173 --> 00:15:48,607
that championed punk and the New Wave.
293
00:15:48,675 --> 00:15:50,108
And that was wonderful.
294
00:15:50,177 --> 00:15:53,112
And strangely,
it championed within the establishment.
295
00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:54,670
I mean, there's nothing more establishment,
296
00:15:54,748 --> 00:15:56,443
particularly to young people, than television.
297
00:15:56,516 --> 00:16:02,413
Every other band that night at Rafters was on stage
because they wanted to be on stage.
298
00:16:02,489 --> 00:16:03,786
They wanted to be rock stars.
299
00:16:03,857 --> 00:16:05,415
They wanted to be in the music business.
300
00:16:05,492 --> 00:16:10,419
But this lot were on stage
because they had no fucking choice.
301
00:16:10,497 --> 00:16:13,227
The next day,
I remember being in a phone booth
302
00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:14,927
in Spring Gardens in Manchester,
303
00:16:15,001 --> 00:16:18,027
just outside the Post Office there.
304
00:16:18,105 --> 00:16:21,370
There was a knock on the booth.
I opened the door. "Yeah?"
305
00:16:21,441 --> 00:16:23,466
This guy stood there.
It was Rob Gretton.
306
00:16:23,543 --> 00:16:27,806
I knew Rob Gretton because he was one
of the other deejays at Rafters.
307
00:16:27,881 --> 00:16:30,111
I just have this picture in my mind,
308
00:16:30,183 --> 00:16:34,085
I can still see of him ranting at me ecstatically
309
00:16:34,154 --> 00:16:36,179
about how wonderful he thought they were
310
00:16:36,256 --> 00:16:38,781
and weren't they the best band
you'd ever seen in your life?
311
00:16:38,859 --> 00:16:40,292
And he was going to manage them,
312
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:41,918
and he was going to take them
313
00:16:41,995 --> 00:16:44,691
to all sorts of places you wouldn't believe.
314
00:16:44,764 --> 00:16:50,068
One of the first things
that Rob Gretton did when he came along,
315
00:16:50,137 --> 00:16:52,628
was "Stop the fucking record that you've done."
316
00:16:52,706 --> 00:16:54,571
He says,
"Get rid of that fucking cover.
317
00:16:54,641 --> 00:16:56,609
Everyone thinks you're nuts just because of it.
318
00:16:56,676 --> 00:16:58,644
Get rid of that fucking cover.
Whose idea was that?"
319
00:16:58,712 --> 00:16:59,872
And he tossed it, you know.
320
00:16:59,946 --> 00:17:01,743
"So we're going to do a new cover,
321
00:17:01,815 --> 00:17:05,008
and we're going to press it
as a 12-inch so it sounds loud."
322
00:17:05,085 --> 00:17:06,848
So he did it, and we played it,
323
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:08,114
and then it was like,
324
00:17:08,188 --> 00:17:09,815
"Wow, he was right, yeah,
it sounds fantastic."
325
00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:11,824
No, no love lost
326
00:17:11,892 --> 00:17:14,122
No, no love lost
327
00:17:27,841 --> 00:17:31,068
When he was deejaying,
he was playing soul music, I think.
328
00:17:31,144 --> 00:17:35,205
But his ideology was really punk.
329
00:17:36,249 --> 00:17:40,481
We'd met a guy called Richard Searling
from RCA Records.
330
00:17:40,554 --> 00:17:43,990
Ian was a regular visitor to the RCA offices.
331
00:17:44,057 --> 00:17:46,855
The main reason for that was he adored Iggy Pop.
332
00:17:46,927 --> 00:17:49,521
And they wanted a punk band.
333
00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:51,496
A punk band.
334
00:17:51,565 --> 00:17:53,556
I didn't know anybody other than...
335
00:17:53,633 --> 00:17:55,100
"Oh, Ian's got a band."
336
00:17:55,168 --> 00:17:58,137
He wanted us to do a cover version
337
00:17:58,205 --> 00:18:01,231
of this Northern Soul record called
"Keep On Keepin' On",
338
00:18:01,308 --> 00:18:02,400
which, when he played it,
339
00:18:02,475 --> 00:18:04,443
we were quite impressed with it actually.
340
00:18:04,511 --> 00:18:07,139
There is a stomping guitar riff in it.
341
00:18:18,658 --> 00:18:21,149
Pick out your moment
342
00:18:24,197 --> 00:18:26,893
You'll be interested, I'll bet, yeah
343
00:18:29,569 --> 00:18:31,434
The engineer must have been pretty good.
344
00:18:31,504 --> 00:18:32,835
I can always remember him
345
00:18:32,906 --> 00:18:36,899
trying to get Ian to sound like...
James Brown.
346
00:18:36,977 --> 00:18:39,309
Telling him to sing like James Brown.
347
00:18:39,379 --> 00:18:40,971
He just got a bottle of whiskey,
348
00:18:41,047 --> 00:18:42,514
plying him with whiskey,
349
00:18:42,582 --> 00:18:45,676
and telling him to belt it out like James Brown,
350
00:18:45,752 --> 00:18:47,811
and it's not the way.
351
00:18:47,887 --> 00:18:52,181
Really, he just kind of got very fractious
and started yelping like a dog.
352
00:18:52,259 --> 00:18:55,854
And then decided we'd best take him home.
353
00:19:22,689 --> 00:19:27,092
Punk enabled you to say,
"Fuck you."
354
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,321
But somehow, it couldn't go any further.
355
00:19:29,396 --> 00:19:32,024
It was just a single, venomous,
356
00:19:32,098 --> 00:19:34,623
one-syllable, two-syllable phrase of anger
357
00:19:34,701 --> 00:19:37,602
which was necessary to re-ignite rock-'n'-roll.
358
00:19:37,671 --> 00:19:39,468
But sooner or later,
359
00:19:39,539 --> 00:19:42,064
someone was going to want to say more
than "Fuck you."
360
00:19:42,142 --> 00:19:45,111
Someone was going to want to say
"I'm fucked."
361
00:19:45,178 --> 00:19:48,409
And it was Joy Division
who were the first band to do that,
362
00:19:48,481 --> 00:19:52,110
to use the energy and simplicity of punk
363
00:19:52,185 --> 00:19:54,278
to express more complex emotions.
364
00:19:54,554 --> 00:19:56,419
Seeing as how this is the program
365
00:19:56,489 --> 00:19:59,219
which previously brought to you
first television appearances
366
00:19:59,292 --> 00:20:01,590
from everything from The Beatles to the Buzzcocks,
367
00:20:01,661 --> 00:20:04,152
we do like to keep our hand in
and keep you informed
368
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:06,926
of the most interesting new sounds in the Northwest.
369
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,558
This, Joy Division,
370
00:20:08,635 --> 00:20:11,596
is the most interesting new sound
we've come across in the last six months.
371
00:20:11,671 --> 00:20:12,695
They're a Manchester band,
372
00:20:12,772 --> 00:20:14,034
with the exception of the guitarist,
373
00:20:14,107 --> 00:20:16,132
who comes from Salford...
very important difference.
374
00:20:16,209 --> 00:20:17,904
They're called Joy Division.
375
00:20:17,977 --> 00:20:20,969
This number is Shadowplay.
376
00:21:00,987 --> 00:21:03,854
To the center of the city
where all roads meet
377
00:21:03,923 --> 00:21:05,754
Waiting for you
378
00:21:07,460 --> 00:21:10,554
To the depths of the ocean
where all hopes sank
379
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:12,222
Searching for you
380
00:21:14,701 --> 00:21:17,101
Moving through the silence without motion
381
00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:19,263
Waiting for you
382
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,838
In a room with no window in the corner
383
00:21:23,910 --> 00:21:26,708
I found truth
384
00:21:44,030 --> 00:21:46,362
One time we started doing the Factory nights,
385
00:21:46,433 --> 00:21:47,900
there was always this...
386
00:21:47,967 --> 00:21:51,801
this kind of void that was the band,
387
00:21:51,871 --> 00:21:54,032
then there was nothing,
388
00:21:54,107 --> 00:21:57,907
and then there were some people sort of lurking.
389
00:21:57,977 --> 00:22:00,172
And the second time, this sort of void
390
00:22:00,246 --> 00:22:04,080
was kind of getting itself
sort of narrower and narrower,
391
00:22:04,150 --> 00:22:08,086
so that eventually there was even
the odd person dancing.
392
00:22:08,154 --> 00:22:10,179
Well, hey, we've got an audience now.
393
00:22:10,256 --> 00:22:12,451
I sort of remember it was absolutely astounding.
394
00:22:12,525 --> 00:22:15,221
It was unbelievably good,
395
00:22:15,295 --> 00:22:17,627
and I felt so in awe of somebody I knew.
396
00:22:17,697 --> 00:22:20,029
Ian's just that, and he starts like that.
397
00:22:20,099 --> 00:22:23,034
It just seemed the very kind of,
like, Caesar.
398
00:22:23,102 --> 00:22:25,297
And it was other-worldly.
399
00:22:25,371 --> 00:22:30,536
And I'm thinking, "This is Ian,
who can buy flowers for his wife",
400
00:22:30,610 --> 00:22:33,408
and he's up on stage, and it's...
401
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,074
totally inspirational and hypnotic.
402
00:22:36,149 --> 00:22:37,707
And I'm... I'm...
403
00:22:37,784 --> 00:22:39,342
I'm sold to it.
404
00:22:39,419 --> 00:22:42,320
I've bought it, totally.
405
00:22:45,058 --> 00:22:47,856
To the center of the city
where all roads meet
406
00:22:47,927 --> 00:22:49,451
Waiting for you
407
00:22:51,498 --> 00:22:54,058
To the depths of the ocean
where all hopes sank
408
00:22:54,133 --> 00:22:55,691
Searching for you
409
00:22:57,504 --> 00:23:00,234
I was moving through the silence without motion
410
00:23:00,306 --> 00:23:02,399
Waiting for you
411
00:23:03,843 --> 00:23:06,403
In a room with no window in the corner
412
00:23:06,479 --> 00:23:09,312
I found truth
413
00:23:22,662 --> 00:23:24,687
You would just be drawn into it.
414
00:23:24,764 --> 00:23:27,733
It functioned like those shaman things do.
415
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,030
You're just kind of pulled into the moment.
416
00:23:30,103 --> 00:23:31,798
They're a very interesting band about time
417
00:23:31,871 --> 00:23:34,169
because they're very informed by the past.
418
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,770
But also, you're always propelled
into just a moment of present with them.
419
00:23:38,845 --> 00:23:40,938
Time sort of stops.
420
00:23:41,014 --> 00:23:43,949
In the shadowplay,
acting out your own death
421
00:23:44,017 --> 00:23:46,508
Knowing no more
422
00:23:46,586 --> 00:23:48,315
They were just absolutely stunning.
423
00:23:48,388 --> 00:23:49,412
I couldn't believe it.
424
00:23:49,489 --> 00:23:53,051
I've gotten real goose bumps now,
because I can remember it.
425
00:23:53,126 --> 00:23:55,594
But not in me head, in me stomach.
426
00:23:55,662 --> 00:23:58,460
This just got me there,
you know, just, whoa.
427
00:24:00,099 --> 00:24:02,431
But I could only stare in disbelief
428
00:24:02,502 --> 00:24:04,732
As the crowds all left
429
00:24:09,008 --> 00:24:14,211
We were only originally going to have two songs,
and then do a short film
430
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,876
about what was happening
within Manchester with Anderton.
431
00:24:18,952 --> 00:24:22,945
He was a very right wing
and very vociferous chief constable.
432
00:24:23,022 --> 00:24:25,282
He believed he spoke directly to God every night.
433
00:24:25,358 --> 00:24:26,916
He believed that God sent him messages,
434
00:24:26,993 --> 00:24:30,224
and it felt really genuinely threatening.
435
00:24:30,296 --> 00:24:32,389
It felt there was a bad moon rising.
436
00:24:32,465 --> 00:24:35,662
You know, it felt
like there was bad shit on the way.
437
00:24:38,071 --> 00:24:42,132
Well, there was, actually.
The sewers were up at the time.
438
00:24:42,208 --> 00:24:45,143
What a great metaphor
for whatever the fuck was going on.
439
00:24:45,211 --> 00:24:51,413
And then yet, the looming Factory thing
creating this consumerist fascist society.
440
00:24:51,484 --> 00:24:53,213
And then we cut to, if you like,
441
00:24:53,286 --> 00:24:56,187
the underground feel of the rehearsal rooms,
442
00:24:56,255 --> 00:24:58,416
where it's almost like a resistance group.
443
00:24:58,491 --> 00:25:00,584
That was the idea to get across,
444
00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:07,191
that these... this was a resistance
through our own culture.
445
00:25:07,266 --> 00:25:12,373
When Tony sat with Alan and I
for Christmas '78 and said...
446
00:25:14,518 --> 00:25:15,640
"I think we might...
447
00:25:15,708 --> 00:25:18,268
we could do a record from the club
448
00:25:18,344 --> 00:25:21,745
for the bands that haven't got contracts yet."
449
00:25:21,814 --> 00:25:25,511
This was just like terribly, terribly exciting.
450
00:25:25,718 --> 00:25:29,412
Suddenly we had a producer,
and his name was Martin Hannett.
451
00:25:35,895 --> 00:25:37,294
Why?
452
00:25:38,931 --> 00:25:40,296
Right.
453
00:25:49,175 --> 00:25:50,938
So what's the first thing you do for them?
454
00:25:51,010 --> 00:25:53,240
Idea for Factory Sample?
455
00:26:04,490 --> 00:26:07,288
I feel it closing in
456
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:10,158
I feel it closing in
457
00:26:10,229 --> 00:26:12,959
The fear of whom I call
458
00:26:13,032 --> 00:26:15,830
Every time I call
459
00:26:15,902 --> 00:26:18,666
I feel it closing in
460
00:26:18,738 --> 00:26:20,968
I feel it closing in
461
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,873
Day in, day out, day in, day out
462
00:26:23,943 --> 00:26:26,741
Day in, day out, day in, day out
463
00:26:26,813 --> 00:26:30,874
Day in, day out, day in, day out, oh
464
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:37,185
The lyrics of Digital are actually digital.
465
00:26:37,256 --> 00:26:41,556
There's on, off, day in, day out,
day in, day out,
466
00:26:41,627 --> 00:26:43,527
And they're switching.
467
00:26:43,596 --> 00:26:52,299
It's also somehow weirdly related
to Curtis' persona itself,
468
00:26:52,371 --> 00:26:55,863
which is, we know now, is bipolar.
469
00:26:55,942 --> 00:26:58,206
On the one hand we have the lad
470
00:26:58,277 --> 00:27:00,609
going down to the pub with his mates,
fooling around.
471
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,147
On the other hand,
472
00:27:02,215 --> 00:27:05,309
we have the aesthete, who's reading poetry
473
00:27:05,384 --> 00:27:09,320
and imbibing himself
with all kinds of highfalutin ideas
474
00:27:09,388 --> 00:27:12,482
that he's going to be a romantic pop star hero.
475
00:27:12,558 --> 00:27:16,688
Ian just looks straight into the camera
while he's smoking.
476
00:27:16,763 --> 00:27:21,200
It's the eyes,
that slight translucency of his eyes,
477
00:27:21,267 --> 00:27:25,260
looking into the camera
that sends a chill through people.
478
00:27:27,306 --> 00:27:29,206
16... 17...
479
00:27:29,275 --> 00:27:31,175
18...
480
00:27:31,244 --> 00:27:33,371
20 and 21... we're getting there.
481
00:27:33,446 --> 00:27:35,073
One was in silhouette, and there was one...
482
00:27:35,148 --> 00:27:37,616
when they came slightly out of the passageway
483
00:27:37,683 --> 00:27:39,446
and we got some sidelines.
484
00:27:40,953 --> 00:27:44,548
Already by then
I've shot 2/3 of a roll of film.
485
00:27:44,624 --> 00:27:48,890
And I'm conscious of the fact
that I didn't really think I had anything.
486
00:27:48,961 --> 00:27:51,589
I'm walking up the bridge,
and they're waiting for me,
487
00:27:51,664 --> 00:27:54,132
and I just felt they looked so bleak
488
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,534
and they were so un-rock-'n'-roll-like,
489
00:27:58,604 --> 00:28:02,838
that I took two frames and then took
an upright shot of the same thing,
490
00:28:02,909 --> 00:28:04,900
and that's all I did of that picture.
491
00:28:04,977 --> 00:28:09,311
And that's, I guess, become, probably,
492
00:28:09,382 --> 00:28:12,044
the most recognized Joy Division image.
493
00:28:21,194 --> 00:28:24,288
The whole idea was to get your band
signed to a major.
494
00:28:24,363 --> 00:28:28,221
I was sitting in the Band on the Wall
one Sunday night with Gretton,
495
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,097
who suddenly turns to me and goes,
496
00:28:31,170 --> 00:28:34,632
"Why don't we do our first album with you
and then go to Warner Brothers?"
497
00:28:34,707 --> 00:28:36,641
I remember, far from being, "Wow,"
498
00:28:36,709 --> 00:28:37,971
it was like, "Are you sure?
499
00:28:38,044 --> 00:28:39,511
"How much is that going to cost?"
500
00:28:39,579 --> 00:28:41,240
"Martin says it will cost ten grand."
501
00:28:41,314 --> 00:28:43,339
It cost 25, the bastard.
502
00:28:56,929 --> 00:28:59,659
With Unknown Pleasures,
I think we had three weekends.
503
00:28:59,732 --> 00:29:04,034
I could be wrong, but I think
it was three weekends to record and mix it.
504
00:29:04,103 --> 00:29:05,468
So we played them all live.
505
00:29:05,538 --> 00:29:10,501
So the first thing we did with Martin
was to just get them recorded in the studio.
506
00:29:10,576 --> 00:29:12,771
And then it would be experimentation time,
507
00:29:12,845 --> 00:29:14,642
and then he'd start putting wacky noises on it,
508
00:29:14,714 --> 00:29:16,579
like, he recorded the lift shaft.
509
00:29:19,652 --> 00:29:27,254
It was kind of like you're going on some sort
of strange science-fiction-based journey.
510
00:29:27,326 --> 00:29:29,317
There was a lot of pot smoked.
511
00:29:29,395 --> 00:29:31,158
He wouldn't say to you,
512
00:29:31,230 --> 00:29:34,757
"I want you to do it like this."
513
00:29:34,834 --> 00:29:40,337
It was kind of all,
"Do it again, but a bit more cocktail party",
514
00:29:40,406 --> 00:29:42,704
or "a bit more yellow."
515
00:29:42,775 --> 00:29:44,709
"Magnificent but humble."
516
00:29:44,777 --> 00:29:46,210
"Faster but slower."
517
00:29:46,279 --> 00:29:49,112
- Whether it was pot or whether it was...
- You're right.
518
00:29:49,181 --> 00:29:51,741
The Zen school of production, I don't know.
519
00:29:51,817 --> 00:29:52,943
We're ready.
520
00:29:53,019 --> 00:29:55,954
Let's try one.
521
00:29:56,022 --> 00:29:58,422
Give me a fucking break.
522
00:30:00,259 --> 00:30:01,226
Put coffee in.
523
00:30:01,294 --> 00:30:05,687
Memorably at the AMS, a digital delay line.
524
00:30:05,765 --> 00:30:08,734
He pressed the button,
hit the snare drum, it goes...
525
00:30:08,801 --> 00:30:11,736
Oh, the snare drum's in the box now.
526
00:30:11,804 --> 00:30:13,738
How have you done that, Martin?
That's amazing.
527
00:30:13,806 --> 00:30:17,599
It was using that machine
that Martin changed drum sounds forever.
528
00:30:17,677 --> 00:30:22,038
But I never knew that Martin
was significantly involved in creating the machine.
529
00:30:22,114 --> 00:30:25,982
These two strange whiz kids from AMS,
530
00:30:26,052 --> 00:30:28,282
Burnley, Lancashire, England,
531
00:30:28,354 --> 00:30:31,790
had discovered Hannett and...
532
00:30:31,857 --> 00:30:34,155
once a month they would meet him in a car park
533
00:30:34,226 --> 00:30:36,990
on top of the moors,
in between Manchester and Burnley.
534
00:30:37,063 --> 00:30:43,363
And this lunatic... stroke drug addict
would climb out of his old Volvo,
535
00:30:43,436 --> 00:30:44,903
into the back of their car,
536
00:30:44,971 --> 00:30:50,631
and would rabbit on for 30 minutes
about the sounds he was imagining in his head.
537
00:30:53,346 --> 00:30:59,074
I think Martin proposed
a way to understand Joy Division.
538
00:30:59,151 --> 00:31:01,676
He heard something.
539
00:31:01,754 --> 00:31:02,982
He saw something.
540
00:31:03,055 --> 00:31:06,991
He felt something from them...
541
00:31:07,059 --> 00:31:11,825
and was able to project in his mind
what it could be.
542
00:31:11,897 --> 00:31:14,161
Well, the songs were great anyway.
543
00:31:14,233 --> 00:31:15,427
Martin didn't write them.
544
00:31:15,501 --> 00:31:16,866
He only produced them.
545
00:31:16,936 --> 00:31:19,599
He started, you know,
chipping in when we needed him.
546
00:31:19,672 --> 00:31:21,935
But that's the job of a producer anyway, really.
547
00:31:22,008 --> 00:31:25,535
I just remember the whole...
the sleeve, you know.
548
00:31:25,611 --> 00:31:29,304
It was just an uncanny moment
because it did belong in your collection,
549
00:31:29,382 --> 00:31:31,441
next to Roxy Music, next to Velvet,
550
00:31:31,517 --> 00:31:32,814
and it didn't look wrong.
551
00:31:32,885 --> 00:31:35,012
It was just next to Diamond Dogs,
552
00:31:35,087 --> 00:31:36,179
it was a great piece of work.
553
00:31:36,255 --> 00:31:37,813
But it didn't borrow any of that language.
554
00:31:37,890 --> 00:31:39,414
It didn't borrow any of that visual language.
555
00:31:39,492 --> 00:31:40,720
It was totally itself,
556
00:31:40,793 --> 00:31:43,455
and I couldn't work out how or where
it had come from.
557
00:31:43,529 --> 00:31:47,989
I made the cover that I would have wanted,
558
00:31:48,067 --> 00:31:50,433
had I found it in a record rack.
559
00:31:50,503 --> 00:31:56,098
And nobody, um,
obliged me to do otherwise.
560
00:31:58,310 --> 00:31:59,299
They'd given me the elements.
561
00:31:59,378 --> 00:32:02,211
I mean, the wave pattern is astonishing.
562
00:32:02,281 --> 00:32:06,713
I mean, one amazing image
for something called Unknown Pleasures.
563
00:32:09,955 --> 00:32:12,219
I took it to Rob's house.
564
00:32:12,291 --> 00:32:13,758
I took the artwork to Rob.
565
00:32:13,826 --> 00:32:15,691
And he said,
"I have a test pressing.
566
00:32:15,761 --> 00:32:17,251
Do you want to listen to it?"
567
00:32:17,329 --> 00:32:21,390
I didn't know if I could sit
through 40 minutes of Joy Division,
568
00:32:21,467 --> 00:32:25,301
especially in front of their manager.
569
00:32:25,371 --> 00:32:30,773
Um, but I couldn't really say no,
570
00:32:30,843 --> 00:32:36,909
and within moments I knew that I had a part
in a kind of life-changing experience.
571
00:32:39,085 --> 00:32:45,490
Minute after minute was beyond anything
I could have expected.
572
00:32:45,558 --> 00:32:48,254
It was just beyond.
573
00:32:48,327 --> 00:32:49,624
It was astonishing.
574
00:32:50,329 --> 00:32:51,694
And just as soon as it started,
575
00:32:51,764 --> 00:32:54,358
and the drums sounded like
no drums had ever sounded,
576
00:32:54,433 --> 00:32:58,903
and everything seemed to belong in its own space
and not quite connecting somehow.
577
00:32:58,971 --> 00:33:01,371
Something amazing had happened.
578
00:33:22,661 --> 00:33:24,652
I've been waiting for a guide
579
00:33:24,730 --> 00:33:26,960
To come and take me by the hand
580
00:33:28,567 --> 00:33:29,864
Could these sensations
581
00:33:29,935 --> 00:33:32,165
Make me feel the pleasures of a normal man?
582
00:33:34,540 --> 00:33:38,237
These sensations barely interest me
for another day
583
00:33:40,179 --> 00:33:42,170
I've got the spirit, lose the feeling
584
00:33:42,248 --> 00:33:44,808
Take the shock away
585
00:33:48,420 --> 00:33:50,752
When Unknown Pleasures came out,
586
00:33:50,823 --> 00:33:52,051
it was sort of like,
587
00:33:52,124 --> 00:33:55,150
this is the ambient music for my environment.
588
00:33:55,227 --> 00:33:56,854
I mean, you know,
when I think about Joy Division,
589
00:33:56,929 --> 00:33:59,727
they're an ambient band almost.
590
00:33:59,798 --> 00:34:02,164
You don't see them function as a band.
591
00:34:02,234 --> 00:34:04,998
It's just the noise around where you are.
592
00:34:05,070 --> 00:34:07,800
It was almost like a science-fiction
interpretation of Manchester.
593
00:34:07,873 --> 00:34:09,534
You could recognize the landscape
594
00:34:09,608 --> 00:34:12,304
and the mindscape and the soundscape
as being Manchester.
595
00:34:12,378 --> 00:34:14,573
It was extraordinary that they'd managed
596
00:34:14,647 --> 00:34:18,811
to make Manchester international, if you like,
make Manchester cosmic.
597
00:34:18,884 --> 00:34:21,444
It's getting faster, moving faster now
598
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,512
It's getting out of hand
599
00:34:24,590 --> 00:34:26,854
On the tenth floor, down the back stairs
600
00:34:26,926 --> 00:34:30,555
It's a no man's land
601
00:34:30,629 --> 00:34:32,654
Lights are flashing, cars are crashing
602
00:34:32,731 --> 00:34:36,167
Getting frequent now
603
00:34:36,235 --> 00:34:38,362
I've got the spirit, lose the feeling
604
00:34:38,437 --> 00:34:41,429
Let it out somehow
605
00:34:46,111 --> 00:34:47,908
Unknown Pleasures is also, of course,
606
00:34:47,980 --> 00:34:51,177
a very iPod-ed kind of world.
607
00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:53,878
It's urban, but it's not.
608
00:34:53,953 --> 00:34:57,821
It's about... a landscape,
609
00:34:57,890 --> 00:35:03,089
but that landscape is primarily an interior landscape.
610
00:35:03,162 --> 00:35:08,794
And so, what is very,
very important about it now,
611
00:35:08,867 --> 00:35:13,964
is to see where we've traveled from since then,
612
00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:20,569
and exactly why it still sounds
so bloody contemporary.
613
00:35:20,646 --> 00:35:22,580
I'm watching you, I'm watching her
614
00:35:22,648 --> 00:35:26,550
I take no pity from your friends
615
00:35:26,619 --> 00:35:28,348
Who is right, who can tell?
616
00:35:28,420 --> 00:35:30,547
And who gives a damn right now?
617
00:35:32,424 --> 00:35:34,984
Until the spirit new sensation takes hold
618
00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:36,152
Then you know
619
00:35:38,297 --> 00:35:40,697
Until the spirit new sensation takes hold
620
00:35:40,766 --> 00:35:43,735
Then you know
621
00:35:43,802 --> 00:35:46,270
Until the spirit new sensation takes hold
622
00:35:46,338 --> 00:35:48,272
Then you know
623
00:35:51,343 --> 00:35:54,141
I've got the spirit
624
00:35:54,213 --> 00:35:57,046
But lose the feeling
625
00:35:57,116 --> 00:35:59,880
I've got the spirit
626
00:35:59,952 --> 00:36:03,285
But lose the feeling
627
00:36:03,355 --> 00:36:06,290
Feeling, feeling, feeling, feeling
628
00:36:06,358 --> 00:36:10,317
Feeling, feeling, feeling
629
00:36:19,805 --> 00:36:23,935
When Unknown Pleasures came out,
it got universal critical acclaim.
630
00:36:24,009 --> 00:36:26,807
It must be only me and Bernard
in the whole bleeding world
631
00:36:26,879 --> 00:36:30,771
that don't like Unknown Pleasures,
you know, which is quite ironic, isn't it?
632
00:36:30,849 --> 00:36:32,441
The only thing we agree on.
633
00:36:35,521 --> 00:36:37,716
I mean, Unknown Pleasures,
634
00:36:37,790 --> 00:36:39,724
I admit, even after we recorded it,
635
00:36:39,792 --> 00:36:44,524
I find it quite difficult to listen to it myself
because it was so dark.
636
00:36:44,596 --> 00:36:48,626
I don't think the production helped
because that made it darker, even darker still.
637
00:36:48,701 --> 00:36:51,829
But I felt,
"Well, no one's going to listen to this.
638
00:36:51,904 --> 00:36:54,805
It's too bloody heavy."
639
00:36:54,873 --> 00:36:56,568
You know, it's too impenetrable.
640
00:36:58,177 --> 00:37:04,582
We
641
00:37:04,650 --> 00:37:08,711
Were strangers
642
00:37:11,890 --> 00:37:15,519
We
643
00:37:15,594 --> 00:37:17,994
I think also in our lives,
644
00:37:18,063 --> 00:37:20,554
we'd all had very dark experiences, you know.
645
00:37:20,632 --> 00:37:24,295
We were only, like, 21, but see, for me,
646
00:37:24,370 --> 00:37:26,531
I had a lot of death and illness in my family.
647
00:37:26,605 --> 00:37:31,209
And to experience such things at a young age
makes you quite a serious person.
648
00:37:31,276 --> 00:37:32,743
Ian, I guess in his line of work,
649
00:37:32,811 --> 00:37:35,336
what he did, you know, was quite serious.
650
00:37:35,414 --> 00:37:39,475
We
651
00:37:39,551 --> 00:37:44,784
Were strangers
652
00:37:44,857 --> 00:37:47,951
For way too long
653
00:37:48,026 --> 00:37:50,358
She's Lost Control was about a girl
654
00:37:50,429 --> 00:37:57,228
that he worked with at Disability Center
that came in to, um, see him
655
00:37:57,302 --> 00:37:59,600
and I think he really liked her, you know?
656
00:37:59,671 --> 00:38:01,195
Thought she's a nice girl.
657
00:38:01,273 --> 00:38:03,605
And he was trying to get her work
at a different place,
658
00:38:03,675 --> 00:38:07,271
and one day, she didn't come in
and she died from a fit.
659
00:38:07,346 --> 00:38:09,780
And... And he was quite shocked by that,
660
00:38:09,848 --> 00:38:14,512
and I think he... that this was before
he had epilepsy himself.
661
00:38:14,586 --> 00:38:17,612
And so he wrote She's Lost Control about her.
662
00:38:17,689 --> 00:38:22,085
And you can see them now, as Ian Curtis sings
the brilliant She's Lost Control.
663
00:38:40,312 --> 00:38:43,076
Confusion in her eyes that says it all
664
00:38:43,148 --> 00:38:44,706
She's lost control
665
00:38:46,618 --> 00:38:49,382
And she's clinging to the nearest passer-by
666
00:38:49,455 --> 00:38:51,218
She's lost control
667
00:38:52,991 --> 00:38:55,425
And she gave away the secrets of her past
668
00:38:55,494 --> 00:38:59,089
And said she's lost control again
669
00:38:59,164 --> 00:39:01,758
And a voice that told her when
and where to act
670
00:39:01,834 --> 00:39:05,167
She said I've lost control again
671
00:40:01,860 --> 00:40:05,489
In September '79, we turned over to BBC 2,
672
00:40:05,564 --> 00:40:10,001
and I'd never seen a TV performance like it.
673
00:40:10,068 --> 00:40:12,502
Ian Curtis' performance and the band's performance
674
00:40:12,571 --> 00:40:15,369
has just totally broke through
the plastic of the media.
675
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,568
Going from musicians
who couldn't even play their instruments,
676
00:40:18,644 --> 00:40:20,669
suddenly they were a super group.
677
00:40:20,746 --> 00:40:23,579
And I was just astonished to see this.
678
00:40:23,649 --> 00:40:29,781
Dance, dance, dance, dance,
dance to the radio
679
00:40:29,855 --> 00:40:35,418
Dance, dance, dance, dance,
dance to the radio
680
00:40:35,494 --> 00:40:41,262
Dance, dance, dance, dance,
dance to the radio
681
00:40:41,333 --> 00:40:47,738
Dance, dance, dance, dance,
dance to the radio
682
00:40:47,806 --> 00:40:50,969
Well, I would call out
when the going gets tough
683
00:40:51,043 --> 00:40:54,012
The things you've learned
are no longer enough
684
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:57,071
No language, just sound,
that's all we need know
685
00:40:57,149 --> 00:41:01,609
To synchronize love to the beat of the show
686
00:41:01,687 --> 00:41:05,179
And we could dance
687
00:41:05,257 --> 00:41:11,127
Dance, dance, dance, dance,
dance to the radio
688
00:41:11,196 --> 00:41:16,930
Dance, dance, dance, dance,
dance to the radio
689
00:41:17,002 --> 00:41:22,770
Dance, dance, dance, dance,
dance to the radio
690
00:41:22,841 --> 00:41:27,642
Dance, dance, dance, dance,
dance to the radio
691
00:41:33,085 --> 00:41:36,478
They must have had a sense within the unit
that they'd done something special.
692
00:41:36,555 --> 00:41:43,183
Ian's ambition, obviously, was the one ultimately
that created the great catastrophe.
693
00:41:43,261 --> 00:41:45,195
But I think the others had
their own ambition within that.
694
00:41:45,263 --> 00:41:47,857
Even it was just to be
the greatest bass player on the planet.
695
00:41:48,066 --> 00:41:50,500
I just wanted us to be how we sounded live.
696
00:41:50,569 --> 00:41:51,695
And it was purely that, you know.
697
00:41:51,770 --> 00:41:53,067
I didn't want it to sound melancholy.
698
00:41:53,138 --> 00:41:54,230
I didn't want it to lacerate.
699
00:41:54,306 --> 00:41:56,706
I want just to lop people's heads off,
700
00:41:56,775 --> 00:41:59,300
like, uh, Iggy Pop live.
701
00:41:59,378 --> 00:42:01,608
I wasn't interested in depth or anything.
702
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,648
I just wanted to, you know,
kick them in the teeth.
703
00:42:50,729 --> 00:42:53,926
Joy Division sounded like no one else.
704
00:42:53,999 --> 00:42:56,524
Very, very powerful on stage.
705
00:42:56,601 --> 00:42:59,934
And Ian on stage was something fascinating.
706
00:43:00,005 --> 00:43:05,671
He sang and he danced in a unique way and...
707
00:43:05,744 --> 00:43:09,805
Plan K, that was kind of like...
708
00:43:09,881 --> 00:43:11,246
Ian had met Annik.
709
00:43:11,316 --> 00:43:15,047
They never traveled much,
I think, as teenagers.
710
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,145
And when they first went to Europe, yeah,
711
00:43:17,222 --> 00:43:19,747
I think something really happened for them.
712
00:43:19,825 --> 00:43:21,554
It's a major milestone.
713
00:43:21,626 --> 00:43:24,686
You're leaving home turf for the first time,
714
00:43:24,763 --> 00:43:26,731
and we were playing a gig at Plan K.
715
00:43:26,798 --> 00:43:28,766
Cabaret Voltaire was on the bill.
716
00:43:28,834 --> 00:43:30,768
It was a converted sugar refinery,
717
00:43:30,836 --> 00:43:33,600
So, you know, it was pretty arty.
718
00:43:33,672 --> 00:43:35,731
So we went over there, and we thought,
719
00:43:35,807 --> 00:43:38,742
"Right, you know, we're big time Charlies."
720
00:43:38,810 --> 00:43:42,036
The big attraction was that
they actually had William Burroughs.
721
00:43:42,114 --> 00:43:45,943
Pay it all, pay it all,
pay it all back.
722
00:43:46,017 --> 00:43:48,417
Play all your reports back.
723
00:43:48,487 --> 00:43:50,512
The bands would play the concert space.
724
00:43:50,589 --> 00:43:52,819
The other floors,
that was kind of performance art,
725
00:43:52,891 --> 00:43:55,655
and then one room where they just showed movies.
726
00:43:55,727 --> 00:43:58,560
Boys, school showers and swimming pools.
727
00:43:58,630 --> 00:44:00,461
There was such an arty do.
728
00:44:00,532 --> 00:44:02,227
Everyone was so arty, wandering around,
729
00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:03,631
"Oh, God, Joy Division,
730
00:44:03,702 --> 00:44:07,160
that's so wonderfully sublime, darling,"
in French.
731
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,809
I mean, the hilarious one there was when Ian decided
he was going to get a free book off William Burroughs,
732
00:44:11,877 --> 00:44:15,176
because he felt like he'd read all of
William Burroughs' books and bought them,
733
00:44:15,247 --> 00:44:17,340
so for some strange reason
he thought that this time,
734
00:44:17,415 --> 00:44:20,350
William Burroughs would give him a free book.
735
00:44:20,418 --> 00:44:23,387
And Bernard and I were most amused,
736
00:44:23,455 --> 00:44:25,719
and we went with Ian to William Burroughs,
737
00:44:25,791 --> 00:44:27,691
where William Burroughs was reading first,
738
00:44:27,759 --> 00:44:29,351
and then he was doing the signing.
739
00:44:29,427 --> 00:44:30,985
And, uh, he went over,
740
00:44:31,062 --> 00:44:33,895
and me and Bernard
were pissing ourselves behind the pillar.
741
00:44:33,965 --> 00:44:36,229
Can't remember what he said,
but we were there,
742
00:44:36,301 --> 00:44:39,361
and then all we heard was William Burroughs'
"Aw, fuck off, kid!"
743
00:44:40,438 --> 00:44:43,832
We have had enough of your common bullshit.
744
00:44:43,909 --> 00:44:46,139
Oh, we used to laugh at him for hours.
745
00:44:46,211 --> 00:44:47,940
Ian was so embarrassed.
746
00:44:48,013 --> 00:44:49,981
Ian was a big Burroughs fan
747
00:44:50,048 --> 00:44:58,646
because his writing was very much
a post-industrial nightmare.
748
00:44:58,723 --> 00:45:06,461
It was about the bigotry and lack of ethics.
749
00:45:06,531 --> 00:45:11,491
Cynical, hate-filled, totalitarian, dark underside,
750
00:45:11,570 --> 00:45:14,300
greed of Western society gone mad.
751
00:45:14,372 --> 00:45:16,636
The secret nature of perception...
752
00:45:16,708 --> 00:45:18,300
- Good, thank you.
- The cut-up.
753
00:45:18,376 --> 00:45:23,006
It all seemed to fit and suggest
that there was a way to integrate
754
00:45:23,081 --> 00:45:32,123
that more artistic and literary idea
into what was otherwise a rather paltry glam rock,
755
00:45:32,190 --> 00:45:34,750
prog rock wilderness.
756
00:45:34,826 --> 00:45:37,686
As we became more popular
and started doing more and more gigs,
757
00:45:37,762 --> 00:45:40,993
we just went,
"Right, we'll have to give our jobs up now.
758
00:45:41,066 --> 00:45:42,863
Stop being semi-pro."
759
00:45:42,934 --> 00:45:44,925
Fully professional.
760
00:45:45,003 --> 00:45:50,203
The Buzzcocks tour was our first real sort
of experience of proper rock-'n'-roll
761
00:45:50,275 --> 00:45:53,005
and, uh, roadies and all that.
762
00:45:53,078 --> 00:45:59,942
And of course, their crew and Buzzcocks' crew
got up to all kind of stupid roadie mischief,
763
00:46:00,018 --> 00:46:01,747
as did members of both groups.
764
00:46:01,820 --> 00:46:04,015
He was pissing in the ashtray,
the dirty bastard.
765
00:46:04,089 --> 00:46:06,023
Big lump of draw like that.
766
00:46:06,091 --> 00:46:07,080
Caretaker came in.
767
00:46:07,158 --> 00:46:08,090
There, eat that.
768
00:46:08,159 --> 00:46:11,861
And he grabbed hold of him
while he was pissing in the ashtray...
769
00:46:11,930 --> 00:46:13,420
It felt like my head had fallen off.
770
00:46:13,498 --> 00:46:14,897
And he went, "Oh, oh, oh!
771
00:46:14,966 --> 00:46:17,833
You tell me what you want me to do,
and I'll do it!"
772
00:46:17,903 --> 00:46:18,835
He would show you his tattoo...
773
00:46:18,904 --> 00:46:20,371
Bucket of maggots...
774
00:46:20,438 --> 00:46:23,669
And coming out of his backside were two hands.
775
00:46:23,742 --> 00:46:24,902
Live mice and put them in.
776
00:46:24,976 --> 00:46:26,500
"Yeah, the gear's in the van, yeah."
777
00:46:26,578 --> 00:46:28,603
So I opened the thing
and it was just full of beer.
778
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:29,942
"You must have these."
779
00:46:30,015 --> 00:46:31,243
He'd robbed the bar!
780
00:46:31,316 --> 00:46:33,546
And these two red stars.
"I'll have them."
781
00:46:33,618 --> 00:46:35,745
Then the barman came out with about five bouncers.
782
00:46:35,820 --> 00:46:37,344
Oh, it was like, you fucking twat...
783
00:46:37,422 --> 00:46:38,787
Off his fucking nut.
784
00:46:38,857 --> 00:46:39,915
Hallucinating.
785
00:46:39,991 --> 00:46:43,855
Inane, laughing, grin on his face,
like a lunatic. Couldn't speak.
786
00:46:43,929 --> 00:46:46,454
He's French, right?
He doesn't understand "Fuck off."
787
00:46:46,531 --> 00:46:47,896
He went,
"All right, then, all right, then.
788
00:46:47,966 --> 00:46:50,491
Fuckie offie!"
789
00:47:20,298 --> 00:47:24,632
Once Joy Division really found their...
their seam,
790
00:47:24,703 --> 00:47:27,831
they'd almost always start with Dead Souls.
791
00:47:27,906 --> 00:47:32,873
Now, that track has a very,
very progressive, intense build-up.
792
00:47:32,944 --> 00:47:36,243
There's nearly three minutes
before the vocal comes in.
793
00:47:36,314 --> 00:47:42,685
Now, this gives Ian a chance
both to calibrate positioning himself,
794
00:47:42,754 --> 00:47:47,851
to start to read what the atmosphere is
coming off the audience,
795
00:47:47,926 --> 00:47:53,523
to feel how the band behind him
are locking in with each other
796
00:47:53,598 --> 00:47:55,088
on that particular evening,
797
00:47:55,166 --> 00:47:59,500
and to decide how high he wants to travel.
798
00:48:06,044 --> 00:48:08,205
A lot of people thought
he was off his head on drugs,
799
00:48:08,279 --> 00:48:11,305
and he wasn't... never ever, ever.
800
00:48:11,383 --> 00:48:14,784
And, um, because he looked like he was on drugs,
801
00:48:14,853 --> 00:48:15,979
but he was just...
802
00:48:16,054 --> 00:48:19,387
the music seemed to just put him in,
like, a trance
803
00:48:19,457 --> 00:48:21,391
and he'd just start dancing away,
804
00:48:21,459 --> 00:48:23,825
and he'd go in, like, another world.
805
00:48:51,423 --> 00:48:53,721
Keep on calling me
806
00:48:55,727 --> 00:48:58,491
They keep calling me
807
00:48:58,563 --> 00:49:00,155
That's Joy Division,
808
00:49:00,231 --> 00:49:01,698
and it's called Dead Souls.
809
00:49:01,766 --> 00:49:03,427
Always choose cheery subjects,
don't they, these boys?
810
00:49:03,501 --> 00:49:05,594
I know that tens of thousands of you
are going to sit down
811
00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:07,865
and write letters to me
here at BBC asking about that.
812
00:49:07,939 --> 00:49:09,930
I can't really give you
a great deal of information
813
00:49:10,008 --> 00:49:12,738
except that it's on
the Sordide Sentimental Label.
814
00:49:12,811 --> 00:49:14,745
That's sordid with an E added
to the end of it
815
00:49:14,813 --> 00:49:17,043
to make it look French because,
indeed, it is French.
816
00:49:17,115 --> 00:49:20,982
It is available in one or two shops
and it comes in this sort of folder,
817
00:49:21,052 --> 00:49:23,282
which makes it obviously larger than a record,
818
00:49:23,354 --> 00:49:25,948
and, um, more book-like, in a sense.
819
00:49:26,024 --> 00:49:27,423
He loved that record.
820
00:49:27,492 --> 00:49:31,724
He was so proud, so proud of the sleeve,
821
00:49:31,796 --> 00:49:34,594
of, uh, such a beautiful object.
822
00:49:34,666 --> 00:49:38,124
It was quite funny because when it did come out,
823
00:49:38,203 --> 00:49:41,502
in an edition of 1578,
824
00:49:41,573 --> 00:49:43,768
Rob was down in London,
825
00:49:43,842 --> 00:49:46,106
and he was handing them out,
you know, like, kind of,
826
00:49:46,177 --> 00:49:49,977
"Have one of these. I just got this over from France.
Have one of these."
827
00:49:50,048 --> 00:49:54,108
And then, you know,
two days later, they were gone,
828
00:49:54,185 --> 00:49:55,379
disappeared forever.
829
00:49:55,453 --> 00:50:00,751
And it had been widely distributed on cassette
because Peel played it all the time,
830
00:50:00,825 --> 00:50:04,754
because he was, you know, feeling sorry
for all of those who couldn't get hold of a copy.
831
00:50:04,829 --> 00:50:07,127
And I promise to play
the other side of it tonight,
832
00:50:07,198 --> 00:50:09,257
and, indeed, I shall.
In fact, I shall do it on now.
833
00:50:09,334 --> 00:50:14,931
Walk in silence
834
00:50:15,006 --> 00:50:16,303
Don't walk away
835
00:50:16,374 --> 00:50:17,636
Oh, curses, I'd forgotten.
836
00:50:17,709 --> 00:50:20,610
Sorry. Oh, how irritating,
837
00:50:20,678 --> 00:50:22,805
I'd forgotten that it was a 331/3.
838
00:50:22,881 --> 00:50:25,679
I've remembered about half the times
I've played it.
839
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:28,583
The French, you see,
they flood the country
840
00:50:28,653 --> 00:50:30,280
with millions of apples
that taste like cardboard,
841
00:50:30,355 --> 00:50:32,846
and then send us records
that play at the wrong speed.
842
00:50:32,924 --> 00:50:35,256
Anyway, I was talking
to my child bride on the phone...
843
00:50:35,326 --> 00:50:39,628
It's just four young guys
who are standing there smoking, shaking,
844
00:50:39,697 --> 00:50:42,359
like this, "Oh, yeah, okay", you know...
845
00:50:42,433 --> 00:50:45,766
underdressed, malnourished,
you know, that's what...
846
00:50:45,837 --> 00:50:48,135
what I always thought of the North of England.
847
00:50:48,206 --> 00:50:50,071
It was quite a shock if you came from Holland,
848
00:50:50,141 --> 00:50:53,975
where, socially, you know,
everybody was taken sort of care of.
849
00:50:54,045 --> 00:50:57,208
Then you come to England,
and there's incredible... extreme poverty.
850
00:50:57,282 --> 00:51:00,308
And, and, and, you know,
people drinking and smoking
851
00:51:00,385 --> 00:51:04,219
and having just a little shirt on
and a thin coat.
852
00:51:04,289 --> 00:51:06,018
And they stand outside in the winter.
853
00:51:06,257 --> 00:51:10,353
It was hard to believe in these four guys there,
854
00:51:10,428 --> 00:51:13,226
making jokes, and they were really lads, you know,
855
00:51:13,298 --> 00:51:19,203
very young, and they could have such a deep,
heavy sound.
856
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:23,001
And certainly for Ian, when he was on stage,
857
00:51:23,074 --> 00:51:24,439
he was coming out of himself.
858
00:51:24,509 --> 00:51:30,009
He was a different person,
possessed by some very strong power.
859
00:51:30,081 --> 00:51:36,180
And he looked like he was coming from another world
and, himself, in another world.
860
00:51:36,254 --> 00:51:39,018
And very, very emotional.
861
00:51:39,090 --> 00:51:42,890
He looked at the same time
very strong and very fragile,
862
00:51:42,961 --> 00:51:45,361
very vulnerable, you know?
863
00:51:45,430 --> 00:51:47,489
I think he was very brave to...
864
00:51:47,565 --> 00:51:49,362
to sing and dance like he was doing.
865
00:51:51,436 --> 00:51:53,927
We all live very boring, ordinary lives.
866
00:51:54,005 --> 00:51:56,303
And with our great lead singers,
867
00:51:56,374 --> 00:51:59,366
we look at them, and for that one hour,
868
00:51:59,444 --> 00:52:01,503
we live life through their eyes.
869
00:52:01,579 --> 00:52:05,481
Ian walks on, and he seems a little shy and quiet,
870
00:52:05,550 --> 00:52:07,347
and then he just takes command of the stage.
871
00:52:07,418 --> 00:52:11,184
Light comes onto him, and he goes inside.
872
00:52:11,256 --> 00:52:14,555
Take a chance and step outside
873
00:52:18,496 --> 00:52:21,090
Take a chance and say you tried
874
00:52:21,165 --> 00:52:28,838
It was very much as if he was plugged
into some kind of huge electrical voltage
875
00:52:28,906 --> 00:52:34,640
that was creating this sort of twitching, jerking...
876
00:52:34,712 --> 00:52:39,115
tranced-out symbol for a human being.
877
00:52:39,183 --> 00:52:41,981
Say you tried
878
00:52:42,053 --> 00:52:44,613
Say you tried
879
00:52:44,689 --> 00:52:47,249
Say you tried
880
00:52:47,325 --> 00:52:49,850
Say you tried
881
00:52:49,927 --> 00:52:52,487
Say you tried
882
00:52:52,563 --> 00:52:55,031
Say you tried
883
00:52:55,099 --> 00:52:57,693
Say you tried
884
00:52:57,769 --> 00:53:01,967
Say you tried
885
00:53:11,316 --> 00:53:16,351
Once he'd done that thing
where he shook himself into a frenzy,
886
00:53:16,421 --> 00:53:18,582
you just didn't know where it was going to take you.
887
00:53:18,656 --> 00:53:22,752
He was like a kind of puppet,
and you felt his vulnerability
888
00:53:22,827 --> 00:53:24,920
in that puppet-like movement.
889
00:53:24,996 --> 00:53:27,226
It was a bit like watching performance artists
890
00:53:27,298 --> 00:53:30,734
who deliberately lacerate themselves,
cut themselves,
891
00:53:30,802 --> 00:53:32,827
except with Ian, he didn't bleed.
892
00:53:32,904 --> 00:53:36,465
But he sacrificed something of himself for you.
893
00:53:51,923 --> 00:53:54,585
Say you tried
894
00:53:54,659 --> 00:53:55,717
Say you tried
895
00:53:57,362 --> 00:54:01,128
We've played in Europe already
and Holland and Germany,
896
00:54:01,199 --> 00:54:02,689
and we are going to America.
897
00:54:02,767 --> 00:54:05,964
We're only going for about two weeks, three weeks.
898
00:54:06,037 --> 00:54:09,495
I'd hate to be on the usual record company,
899
00:54:09,574 --> 00:54:11,701
where you sort of...
you do all the Odeons.
900
00:54:11,776 --> 00:54:13,403
I just couldn't do that at all.
901
00:54:13,478 --> 00:54:17,209
That experience like that supporting the Buzzcocks.
902
00:54:17,281 --> 00:54:21,911
It was really, uh, soul destroying.
903
00:54:23,588 --> 00:54:26,716
We played a concert
at Hope & Anchor in London.
904
00:54:28,826 --> 00:54:31,317
I remember Ian being in a weird...
905
00:54:31,396 --> 00:54:34,126
kind of a little bit childish mood.
906
00:54:34,198 --> 00:54:35,722
Not quite himself, you know.
907
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:37,734
This was in the morning.
908
00:54:37,802 --> 00:54:39,770
We drove down, and we did the concert,
909
00:54:39,837 --> 00:54:41,771
and only about three people turned up.
910
00:54:41,839 --> 00:54:43,363
It was about 2 in the morning.
911
00:54:43,441 --> 00:54:46,706
We're driving back up the M1, you know.
912
00:54:46,778 --> 00:54:48,871
And I had the sleeping bag on me,
913
00:54:48,946 --> 00:54:53,249
and Ian just was moaning about the gig,
moaning about the sound, moaning about this,
914
00:54:53,317 --> 00:54:57,253
and he said,
"Hey, give me that sleeping bag."
915
00:54:57,321 --> 00:55:00,614
Which was not like him
because he wasn't a selfish person at all.
916
00:55:00,691 --> 00:55:02,625
He turned around and grabbed the sleeping bag off me.
917
00:55:02,693 --> 00:55:04,752
I said,
"Stop pissing around. Give it to me back."
918
00:55:04,829 --> 00:55:07,229
And I pulled it, so he pulled it back.
919
00:55:07,298 --> 00:55:08,993
I pulled it back, and then held onto it.
920
00:55:09,066 --> 00:55:12,035
So he just wrenched it out of my hands,
921
00:55:12,103 --> 00:55:17,364
put it over his head this time,
and wrapped himself in a ball,
922
00:55:17,442 --> 00:55:21,071
and then just started making this weird
growling sound,
923
00:55:21,145 --> 00:55:23,739
just growling, you know, like...
924
00:55:23,815 --> 00:55:26,010
well, growling like a dog.
925
00:55:26,083 --> 00:55:29,712
The next thing,
a hand comes out of the sleeping bag,
926
00:55:29,787 --> 00:55:31,982
flashes out at Steve,
927
00:55:32,056 --> 00:55:34,456
then comes out, punches the wind screen.
928
00:55:34,525 --> 00:55:36,493
And then he just starts punching,
929
00:55:36,561 --> 00:55:43,264
and that punching turned into a fully-fledged
grand mal fit in the car,
930
00:55:43,334 --> 00:55:45,700
while Steve was driving.
931
00:55:45,770 --> 00:55:48,705
I was like,
"Pull over, pull over, pull over."
932
00:55:48,773 --> 00:55:51,333
Dragged him for his own protection out of the car,
933
00:55:51,409 --> 00:55:53,639
and held him down, flat on the hard shoulder,
934
00:55:53,711 --> 00:55:57,112
you know, dark, middle of the night
and just pinned his limbs down and...
935
00:55:57,181 --> 00:55:59,240
while he basically had a fit.
936
00:55:59,317 --> 00:56:03,378
After that, really,
he just got diagnosed with epilepsy,
937
00:56:03,454 --> 00:56:05,820
and they just started getting
more and more frequent.
938
00:56:05,890 --> 00:56:10,020
Those with epilepsy are going to have
a much more difficult life
939
00:56:10,094 --> 00:56:13,154
because of the age-old stigma
attached to the word epilepsy,
940
00:56:13,231 --> 00:56:15,961
and the real fear which people have of it.
941
00:56:17,935 --> 00:56:19,630
We didn't know what to do.
942
00:56:19,704 --> 00:56:25,142
You know, it's not one of those things
that you're used to.
943
00:56:25,209 --> 00:56:32,008
I mean, we'd certainly never come across
people who'd had fits before.
944
00:56:32,083 --> 00:56:36,884
You know, we... we were there, and...
945
00:56:36,954 --> 00:56:38,819
we didn't know what to say to him.
946
00:56:38,890 --> 00:56:40,915
Plus we're men. Men don't talk.
947
00:56:40,992 --> 00:56:43,017
And we certainly didn't talk to each other.
948
00:56:43,094 --> 00:56:45,688
So we just kind of carried on
the way we were carrying on,
949
00:56:45,763 --> 00:56:48,561
which was working a lot,
950
00:56:48,633 --> 00:56:53,527
and didn't give him much quarter, really,
in which to recover,
951
00:56:53,604 --> 00:56:57,973
because basically, his doctor's advice was...
952
00:56:58,042 --> 00:57:01,978
"Don't drink. Go to bed early."
953
00:57:02,046 --> 00:57:04,708
You know,
"Avoid flashing lights."
954
00:57:04,782 --> 00:57:06,647
Well, he was 22 or something.
955
00:57:06,717 --> 00:57:12,121
Everything that boy has joined a band to do...
956
00:57:12,189 --> 00:57:16,057
you know, the drink, the drugs, the women...
957
00:57:16,127 --> 00:57:21,258
all of that is sort of written out of Ian's script.
958
00:57:21,332 --> 00:57:22,697
You know, he did have epilepsy.
959
00:57:22,767 --> 00:57:23,859
Very suddenly it occurred,
960
00:57:23,935 --> 00:57:27,837
but he also had it very, very, very strong.
961
00:57:27,905 --> 00:57:30,135
Big, you know, grand mal fits.
962
00:57:30,207 --> 00:57:32,141
It wasn't... no messing about.
963
00:57:32,209 --> 00:57:35,474
It was very strong.
964
00:57:35,546 --> 00:57:37,537
Very strong, you know.
965
00:57:37,615 --> 00:57:39,674
He couldn't pick his daughter up.
966
00:57:39,750 --> 00:57:42,184
He couldn't drive a car.
967
00:57:42,253 --> 00:57:45,555
He had to be careful at railway stations
that he didn't stand too near the edge.
968
00:57:45,623 --> 00:57:48,751
As I witnessed a few of his...
of these fits,
969
00:57:48,826 --> 00:57:52,728
you know, I can tell you it was really,
really frightening.
970
00:57:52,797 --> 00:57:55,231
It was like he was being possessed by the devil.
971
00:57:55,299 --> 00:57:56,527
I know it sounds silly to say,
972
00:57:56,601 --> 00:58:00,367
but he was literally raising from the ground.
973
00:58:00,438 --> 00:58:01,632
That's how I remember it.
974
00:58:01,706 --> 00:58:04,937
Nowadays, in the mentally normal patient,
975
00:58:05,009 --> 00:58:09,309
it should be possible to control fits
in at least 85%.
976
00:58:09,380 --> 00:58:10,847
You've got to take lots of drugs,
977
00:58:10,915 --> 00:58:14,475
and the drugs that you have to take,
they're really, really kind of heavy.
978
00:58:14,552 --> 00:58:18,147
One day, he'd come in,
and he'd be laughing his head off and totally happy.
979
00:58:18,222 --> 00:58:24,051
The next day, he'd come in,
and he would be depressed and in tears.
980
00:58:24,128 --> 00:58:25,823
And he wasn't like that before,
981
00:58:25,896 --> 00:58:27,955
before the drugs that he was on.
982
00:58:28,032 --> 00:58:29,863
He wasn't like that.
He was much more...
983
00:58:29,934 --> 00:58:31,333
didn't have the mood swings.
984
00:58:31,402 --> 00:58:35,995
The other thing is, he obviously
had problems with his relationship
985
00:58:36,073 --> 00:58:40,703
with his...
his girlfriend Annik and his wife.
986
00:58:40,778 --> 00:58:42,905
They had to make a life decision there.
987
00:58:42,980 --> 00:58:45,039
It was very, very, very difficult for him.
988
00:58:45,116 --> 00:58:46,276
He had a child.
989
00:58:48,386 --> 00:58:50,320
I don't know what was going on in his mind.
990
00:58:50,388 --> 00:58:52,856
I really dread to think
what was going on in his mind.
991
00:58:55,793 --> 00:59:03,832
I think he could see limits to the way
he was possibly going with the band.
992
00:59:03,901 --> 00:59:08,035
I think the band were about to change
because they were becoming much bigger.
993
00:59:08,105 --> 00:59:10,369
That, and they were on the verge
of becoming absolutely huge.
994
00:59:10,441 --> 00:59:12,636
And creatively and psychologically,
995
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:15,076
that must have been a real challenge for him.
996
00:59:15,146 --> 00:59:18,081
He felt that he was holding us back.
997
00:59:18,149 --> 00:59:20,640
And he...
That was just probably one of the reasons
998
00:59:20,718 --> 00:59:26,419
why he drove himself so hard,
was because he didn't want...
999
00:59:26,490 --> 00:59:28,287
because he knew we all wanted it so badly,
1000
00:59:28,359 --> 00:59:29,826
and we were all enjoying it so much.
1001
00:59:29,894 --> 00:59:33,926
I think that his problem was
that he didn't want to let anybody down.
1002
00:59:33,998 --> 00:59:40,528
People started writing about them
in February 1980,
1003
00:59:40,604 --> 00:59:42,333
as if they were the second coming.
1004
00:59:42,406 --> 00:59:48,704
The weight of expectation upon them to come out
with the most amazing gig ever,
1005
00:59:48,779 --> 00:59:51,612
every time they played, was enormous.
1006
00:59:53,918 --> 00:59:56,113
I remember standing in the audience
at London University
1007
00:59:56,187 --> 01:00:00,123
and thinking,
"Oh, fuck, now they've got...
1008
01:00:00,191 --> 01:00:01,818
Now they've got a single."
1009
01:00:26,817 --> 01:00:29,508
You would first hear
Love Will Tear Us Apart live,
1010
01:00:29,587 --> 01:00:32,714
and you... you... you know,
you'd go "Oh, my God."
1011
01:00:32,789 --> 01:00:38,420
Because you did have enough about you to think,
"That is a fucking great pop song."
1012
01:00:38,496 --> 01:00:39,986
You know, That could be number 1!
1013
01:00:40,064 --> 01:00:42,897
That kind of moment, because it was catchy.
1014
01:00:42,967 --> 01:00:44,298
Then love
1015
01:00:44,368 --> 01:00:49,067
Love will tear us apart again
1016
01:00:49,140 --> 01:00:51,005
Love
1017
01:00:51,075 --> 01:00:55,535
Love will tear us apart again
1018
01:01:02,086 --> 01:01:05,146
Why is the bedroom so cold
1019
01:01:05,222 --> 01:01:08,487
Turned away on your side?
1020
01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:11,460
Is my timing that flawed
1021
01:01:11,529 --> 01:01:15,363
Our respect run so dry?
1022
01:01:15,432 --> 01:01:20,360
Possibly one of the greatest songs
written in the 20... 20th Century by anybody,
1023
01:01:20,437 --> 01:01:23,065
because the way it kind of,
in a Shakespearean sense.
1024
01:01:23,140 --> 01:01:29,011
Take a Calexico, or, you know, a Susanna,
or a fucking Paul Young,
1025
01:01:29,079 --> 01:01:32,947
or, you know, it can take
into multiple interpretations
1026
01:01:33,017 --> 01:01:36,680
and constantly, constantly releases meaning.
1027
01:01:36,754 --> 01:01:42,319
It was an extraordinary piece of writing,
just the words, let alone that somehow,
1028
01:01:42,393 --> 01:01:46,388
these young northerners managed to find a way
to sonically piece together
1029
01:01:46,463 --> 01:01:50,490
music that matched the quality of the words.
1030
01:01:50,568 --> 01:01:54,834
None of them realize how strong and powerful
the music was.
1031
01:01:54,905 --> 01:01:57,567
You know, it's just like a love story.
1032
01:01:57,641 --> 01:02:01,577
Each individual is nothing on their own,
1033
01:02:01,645 --> 01:02:02,771
and when they click together,
1034
01:02:02,847 --> 01:02:05,907
when they are together, it's enormous.
1035
01:02:05,983 --> 01:02:07,712
And that was Joy Division.
1036
01:02:07,785 --> 01:02:11,687
They just had the light, the spirit.
1037
01:02:11,755 --> 01:02:14,781
When Ian says that he had spirit,
that's exactly it.
1038
01:02:14,859 --> 01:02:18,886
You know, he was something...
1039
01:02:18,963 --> 01:02:23,093
some light burning inside him.
1040
01:02:23,167 --> 01:02:30,029
He was gifted in a way that he would know
that this wasn't going to last forever.
1041
01:02:30,107 --> 01:02:34,242
He rang up once, and said,
"Yeah, I want to leave the band.
1042
01:02:34,311 --> 01:02:39,977
I'm going to move to Holland
and open a book shop."
1043
01:02:40,050 --> 01:02:42,280
Great.
1044
01:02:42,353 --> 01:02:47,750
Then the next minute, he was like,
"Oh, we're playing the Buffet on Saturday."
1045
01:02:47,825 --> 01:02:48,849
"I thought Ian was..."
1046
01:02:48,926 --> 01:02:50,894
"No, no, no, he's changed his mind."
1047
01:02:50,961 --> 01:02:52,428
"Oh, right, okay."
1048
01:02:52,496 --> 01:02:57,763
We would talk about ideas and writers and...
1049
01:02:58,869 --> 01:03:01,360
but most of all, he talked about his emotions,
1050
01:03:01,438 --> 01:03:05,033
and about himself and how he was feeling.
1051
01:03:05,109 --> 01:03:09,603
How every week he was becoming more and more...
1052
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,514
shut off from what people perceived him to be.
1053
01:03:13,584 --> 01:03:15,779
That there were these two people
that were Ian Curtis,
1054
01:03:15,853 --> 01:03:19,520
the one that was the media figure
and the singer in the band,
1055
01:03:19,590 --> 01:03:25,759
and the actual Ian Curtis
who was hurt, angry, lost...
1056
01:03:25,829 --> 01:03:27,854
very lonely,
1057
01:03:27,932 --> 01:03:31,595
and didn't feel that people
would treat him with respect
1058
01:03:31,669 --> 01:03:33,466
if he explained who he really was.
1059
01:03:35,673 --> 01:03:41,510
There's no doubt that there is something
of the end point in Closer.
1060
01:03:55,025 --> 01:03:56,822
Unknown Pleasures is the...
1061
01:03:56,894 --> 01:03:59,362
"Isn't it...
wouldn't it be great to be an artist?
1062
01:03:59,430 --> 01:04:04,700
Wouldn't it be great to be like Burroughs
and Bowie and Ballard and Iggy and Luke...
1063
01:04:04,768 --> 01:04:06,292
Wouldn't it be great to be like that?
1064
01:04:06,370 --> 01:04:07,837
I might have a chance to be like...
1065
01:04:07,905 --> 01:04:08,963
Oh, my God, you know."
1066
01:04:09,039 --> 01:04:11,234
And then Closer was the artist.
1067
01:04:11,308 --> 01:04:14,675
That was where he joined those ranks,
1068
01:04:14,745 --> 01:04:16,975
and therefore pulled Unknown Pleasures with him,
1069
01:04:17,047 --> 01:04:21,575
because that was the first step
towards becoming that kind of artist.
1070
01:04:40,771 --> 01:04:43,171
This is the way, step inside
1071
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:48,542
If you were, at this time,
of an inquisitive nature,
1072
01:04:48,612 --> 01:04:50,443
Joy Division is like an Advent calendar:
1073
01:04:50,514 --> 01:04:56,083
You'd open up a window,
and you'd see a gateway to another place.
1074
01:04:56,153 --> 01:05:02,524
There'd be all of these roots out of the world
into other worlds, paranormal worlds.
1075
01:05:02,593 --> 01:05:05,187
An obvious example is Atrocity Exhibition.
1076
01:05:05,262 --> 01:05:07,856
I mean, you want to know,
"What Atrocity Exhibition?"
1077
01:05:07,931 --> 01:05:11,731
And then you find out,
"Oh, it's a book by J.G. Ballard."
1078
01:05:11,802 --> 01:05:15,966
And it opens up a whole other universe.
1079
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:20,977
You take some of the references...
1080
01:05:21,045 --> 01:05:25,675
for example, Colony,
which is Franz Kafka.
1081
01:05:25,749 --> 01:05:29,412
And you take tracks like The Kill,
1082
01:05:29,486 --> 01:05:33,923
and see that the reference
is to Dostoyevsky or something.
1083
01:05:33,991 --> 01:05:37,757
It was like an education in itself.
1084
01:05:37,828 --> 01:05:41,787
This is the way, step inside
1085
01:05:41,865 --> 01:05:45,596
This is the way, step inside
1086
01:05:45,669 --> 01:05:49,571
This is the way, step inside
1087
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:53,940
This is the way, step inside
1088
01:05:54,011 --> 01:05:59,309
I thought Closer got closer to the sound
that I particularly wanted.
1089
01:05:59,383 --> 01:06:03,513
And I also enjoyed the experience
because we were away in London.
1090
01:06:03,587 --> 01:06:06,021
We were living in two flats.
1091
01:06:06,090 --> 01:06:09,082
Ian again was this kind of hoi polloi...
1092
01:06:09,159 --> 01:06:12,219
sort of the party flat at one end,
1093
01:06:12,296 --> 01:06:14,992
and the intellectual flat on the other end.
1094
01:06:15,065 --> 01:06:18,831
I was staying with them in that apartment, I remember.
1095
01:06:18,902 --> 01:06:22,235
And, um, I think I was the only girl around.
1096
01:06:22,306 --> 01:06:30,479
She was just sort of sophistication
to someone from Macclesfield...
1097
01:06:30,547 --> 01:06:37,983
you know, someone who used to ride pigs
for entertainment to be confronted with...
1098
01:06:38,055 --> 01:06:39,545
someone who works in an embassy.
1099
01:06:39,623 --> 01:06:41,750
We're just taking the piss
out of them all the time,
1100
01:06:41,825 --> 01:06:44,123
putting cornflakes in their bed and...
1101
01:06:44,194 --> 01:06:47,095
just japes, daft, stupid things.
1102
01:06:47,164 --> 01:06:50,156
Yeah, but she used to get so wound up, you know.
1103
01:06:50,234 --> 01:06:53,529
There was one night, I remember,
they had a glass pane in the door.
1104
01:06:53,604 --> 01:06:55,196
And we'd been taking the piss out of them,
1105
01:06:55,272 --> 01:06:57,399
throwing beer at them
while they were in bed or something,
1106
01:06:57,474 --> 01:06:58,566
you know, something daft.
1107
01:06:58,642 --> 01:07:00,906
Annik come fucking chased us out,
1108
01:07:00,978 --> 01:07:03,606
and we ran in our flat, hold the door shut,
1109
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:06,513
and she was fucking kicking the door with her...
1110
01:07:06,583 --> 01:07:08,312
with her dressing gown on.
1111
01:07:08,385 --> 01:07:10,114
Yeah, like a fucking bloke would do, you know.
1112
01:07:10,187 --> 01:07:11,211
It was horrible.
1113
01:07:11,288 --> 01:07:13,381
I thought that was a horrible time.
1114
01:07:13,457 --> 01:07:16,324
Ian had Debbie on his case because...
1115
01:07:16,393 --> 01:07:21,220
and Hook had Iris on his case
because Ian had Annik there,
1116
01:07:21,298 --> 01:07:24,165
and Iris thought that was all wrong.
1117
01:07:29,540 --> 01:07:32,065
We got treated well at the studio.
1118
01:07:32,142 --> 01:07:36,269
Britannia Row, I remember them
bringing sandwiches in and tea and stuff.
1119
01:07:36,346 --> 01:07:39,804
We're like,
"Way posh", you know.
1120
01:07:42,553 --> 01:07:45,852
We used to drive Martin mad,
Bernard and I.
1121
01:07:45,923 --> 01:07:47,550
Bernard in one corner, me on the other.
1122
01:07:47,624 --> 01:07:48,556
"Hey, Martin.",
1123
01:07:48,625 --> 01:07:50,320
and he'd go,
"Your go."
1124
01:07:50,394 --> 01:07:52,521
I go,
"Your go. I asked about the..."
1125
01:07:52,596 --> 01:07:53,893
He'd go,
"What are you fucking whispering about?"
1126
01:07:53,964 --> 01:07:55,522
"Nothing, Martin, nothing."
1127
01:07:58,602 --> 01:08:02,866
Whilst they were there at Britannia Row,
Rob had the foresight to think,
1128
01:08:02,940 --> 01:08:06,205
"Well, we'd better go
and see Peter about a cover.
1129
01:08:06,276 --> 01:08:08,870
Who knows? It could take him weeks.
It could take him months.
1130
01:08:08,946 --> 01:08:11,540
So let's go and get him on that now."
1131
01:08:11,615 --> 01:08:13,583
I was very nervous.
1132
01:08:13,650 --> 01:08:17,643
I didn't want to sort of take something from a book
or the shelf and say "I like this."
1133
01:08:17,721 --> 01:08:21,851
and them kind of look at me and think,
"Well, you're just hopeless."
1134
01:08:21,925 --> 01:08:24,519
And there was something.
There was something I was very excited about.
1135
01:08:24,595 --> 01:08:28,022
There was a body of photographs
by a man called Bernard Pierre Wolff.
1136
01:08:28,098 --> 01:08:31,667
And I opened the magazine and put it on
the drawing board and stepped away.
1137
01:08:31,735 --> 01:08:33,669
And I think they just pointed at one
and said,
1138
01:08:33,737 --> 01:08:38,101
"We want this.
We want this for the cover."
1139
01:08:40,410 --> 01:08:43,004
It came to pass that it was
going to be called Closer.
1140
01:08:46,750 --> 01:08:50,186
And it was interesting:
Closer, Closer.
1141
01:08:56,693 --> 01:09:02,899
I had no idea that it was going to be
the last thing that he did.
1142
01:09:02,966 --> 01:09:05,434
It's better than Unknown Pleasures,
1143
01:09:05,502 --> 01:09:09,296
songs are better, everything...
you know...
1144
01:09:11,208 --> 01:09:13,005
He was a good laugh most of the time.
1145
01:09:13,076 --> 01:09:16,603
The only thing that sort of was sad about it
was Ian's illness,
1146
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:18,841
but he hid that so well most of the time.
1147
01:09:19,049 --> 01:09:22,075
I remember talking to him one night.
1148
01:09:22,152 --> 01:09:28,819
Ian was saying to me that, um...
doing this album felt very strange
1149
01:09:28,892 --> 01:09:34,023
because he felt that all his words
were writing themselves.
1150
01:09:34,097 --> 01:09:38,493
And that he'd always in the past struggled
to complete a song, like, he'd have to start.
1151
01:09:38,568 --> 01:09:40,593
We'd all struggle to complete it.
1152
01:09:40,671 --> 01:09:43,538
But he just thought the whole song straight off.
1153
01:09:43,607 --> 01:09:45,666
And...
But he said, at the same time,
1154
01:09:45,742 --> 01:09:52,677
he had this terrible claustrophobic feeling
that he was in a whirlpool of being drowning,
1155
01:09:52,749 --> 01:09:54,944
and he was being pulled down in this whirlpool.
1156
01:09:55,018 --> 01:09:58,510
He was always recording on his own, you know.
1157
01:09:58,588 --> 01:10:03,924
The group would be recording the music
at a different time.
1158
01:10:03,994 --> 01:10:12,761
The image I would have in mind
was Ian was very tired and very, very quiet.
1159
01:10:12,836 --> 01:10:18,297
And every time he would sing,
he would turn his back
1160
01:10:18,375 --> 01:10:24,780
and put his hand on his head
or on his eyes.
1161
01:10:24,848 --> 01:10:31,916
And he was turned around from the others,
just to be in himself.
1162
01:10:49,940 --> 01:10:55,708
All the lyrics on the CD
are really depressing and sad.
1163
01:10:55,779 --> 01:10:59,613
And it's surprising nobody would pay attention.
1164
01:10:59,683 --> 01:11:01,412
We never really talked about his lyrics.
1165
01:11:01,485 --> 01:11:04,113
But we never really listened
to his lyrics that much.
1166
01:11:04,187 --> 01:11:07,782
It's only years on,
when you see them wrote down
1167
01:11:07,858 --> 01:11:10,588
when Debbie published them.
1168
01:11:10,660 --> 01:11:14,460
I thought,
"Oh, my God. Is that what you were singing?"
1169
01:11:14,531 --> 01:11:19,434
Maybe for the others, it was more like literature.
1170
01:11:19,503 --> 01:11:23,829
You know, Annik expressed how worried she was,
how fearful she was.
1171
01:11:23,907 --> 01:11:26,432
And I'm all kind of,
"No, no, no, it's just art.
1172
01:11:26,510 --> 01:11:28,341
It's just an album, for God's sake.
1173
01:11:28,412 --> 01:11:31,245
It's wonderful, I know,
but it's nothing to be frightened of."
1174
01:11:31,314 --> 01:11:33,578
And she said,
"Don't you understand, Tony? He...
1175
01:11:33,650 --> 01:11:37,177
When he says 'I take the blame',
he means it."
1176
01:11:37,254 --> 01:11:39,552
And I went,
"No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
1177
01:11:39,623 --> 01:11:42,490
It's just... it's just art."
1178
01:11:42,559 --> 01:11:45,494
How fucking stupid can you get?
1179
01:11:45,562 --> 01:11:50,791
When he cut himself up with a kitchen knife,
and, you know, he said he was pissed.
1180
01:11:50,867 --> 01:11:56,130
And when he took his first overdose,
you think you'd have stopped and sorted it out.
1181
01:11:56,206 --> 01:11:59,733
It seems, you know, a complete...
1182
01:11:59,810 --> 01:12:03,439
unbelievable to me that we didn't stop
and sort him out.
1183
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:09,141
I think he was actually in a hospital...
and booked.
1184
01:12:09,219 --> 01:12:10,846
We'd already had a gig booked.
1185
01:12:10,921 --> 01:12:14,322
And I know that if we booked a gig,
it never got cancelled.
1186
01:12:16,259 --> 01:12:22,254
So Tony actually brought Ian down to the gig,
and he was in no fit state to play.
1187
01:12:22,332 --> 01:12:24,630
I got a phone call, and it was Bernard.
1188
01:12:24,701 --> 01:12:28,327
And he just said,
"Oh, um, Ian's ill, and we've got a gig tonight.
1189
01:12:28,405 --> 01:12:30,965
We were wondering if you'd like
to stand in for him."
1190
01:12:31,041 --> 01:12:34,499
Alan can go on, sing a couple,
and Ian can come and sing a couple,
1191
01:12:34,578 --> 01:12:37,172
but it didn't go down too well with the audience.
1192
01:12:37,247 --> 01:12:41,207
There was a big Victorian glass chandelier
suspended above the stage.
1193
01:12:41,284 --> 01:12:45,881
And somebody threw a bottle or a glass,
and it hit the chandelier square-on.
1194
01:12:45,956 --> 01:12:49,892
Bottles started flying,
and equipment got trashed.
1195
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:52,554
Hook, he fancied a bit of a fight,
I think, at that point.
1196
01:12:52,629 --> 01:12:55,188
Twinny just kept cackling,
"Right, come on! Sack and assault."
1197
01:12:55,265 --> 01:12:57,728
And they'd all go out
and try to fight the audience.
1198
01:12:57,801 --> 01:13:02,534
But it turned into a, you know,
a complete fiasco.
1199
01:13:02,606 --> 01:13:06,403
It was horrible, and, of course,
it wasn't great for Ian,
1200
01:13:06,474 --> 01:13:09,108
'cause he immediately thought,
"Oh, right, all this is my fault."
1201
01:13:09,179 --> 01:13:10,976
He just burst out in tears.
1202
01:13:11,047 --> 01:13:14,278
He just thought, you know...
took the blame himself, you know.
1203
01:13:27,831 --> 01:13:31,699
He said that he was standing
in the wings at the stage,
1204
01:13:31,768 --> 01:13:35,568
watching the band play without him,
1205
01:13:35,639 --> 01:13:39,006
and he just had this feeling
that he was looking down
1206
01:13:39,075 --> 01:13:40,804
and they were carrying on without him,
1207
01:13:40,877 --> 01:13:43,812
and that they were gonna carry on without him,
1208
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:45,040
which is kind of eerie.
1209
01:13:45,115 --> 01:13:47,844
The Bury gig was on a Tuesday,
and I said to Tony,
1210
01:13:47,917 --> 01:13:51,778
"Maybe you should suggest
that he come stay at our house."
1211
01:13:51,855 --> 01:13:53,186
'Cause we lived in the country.
1212
01:13:53,256 --> 01:13:56,623
And Ian drove back with us that night
after the gig.
1213
01:13:56,693 --> 01:14:02,030
We just sat in the lounge,
smoking and listening to music.
1214
01:14:02,098 --> 01:14:04,123
That was all we did.
1215
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,031
He stayed at my house for a week.
1216
01:14:06,102 --> 01:14:09,970
I think Ian fell out with Debbie,
or he had fallen out with Debbie,
1217
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:11,337
and just needed somewhere to stay,
1218
01:14:11,408 --> 01:14:12,875
so he stayed with me for a week,
1219
01:14:12,943 --> 01:14:15,138
which wasn't great for him,
because I was still in insomnia.
1220
01:14:15,211 --> 01:14:16,735
I was staying up till 5 in the morning,
1221
01:14:16,813 --> 01:14:19,281
but I remember coming back
from rehearsals one day,
1222
01:14:19,349 --> 01:14:22,216
and we took a shortcut through a graveyard,
1223
01:14:22,285 --> 01:14:24,685
and I said to him,
"You're lucky."
1224
01:14:24,754 --> 01:14:27,314
I said,
"Your name could be on one of those stones
1225
01:14:27,390 --> 01:14:29,517
if you had succeeded the other week."
1226
01:14:29,593 --> 01:14:32,153
And he was, like,
"Yeah, right. Yeah."
1227
01:14:32,228 --> 01:14:34,924
You know.
1228
01:14:34,998 --> 01:14:38,092
No sort of connection in the response.
1229
01:14:38,168 --> 01:14:40,466
And...
1230
01:14:40,537 --> 01:14:43,802
he had made his mind up, I think.
1231
01:14:44,174 --> 01:14:49,269
I read a book on hypnotic regression,
that...
1232
01:14:49,346 --> 01:14:52,474
if sometimes you've got problems in the present,
1233
01:14:52,549 --> 01:14:56,645
the regression could unlock, um,
1234
01:14:56,720 --> 01:14:59,450
problems that had occurred
either in your childhood
1235
01:14:59,522 --> 01:15:02,082
or in, if you believed in it, previous lives.
1236
01:15:02,158 --> 01:15:05,127
And Ian was like, "Oh, that sounds interesting.
I'd really like to try that."
1237
01:15:05,195 --> 01:15:09,456
So I said why don't we try it now
and record it on a cassette?
1238
01:17:23,133 --> 01:17:31,139
It's not difficult to realize that, you know,
he was, you know, seriously destabilized
1239
01:17:31,207 --> 01:17:36,736
by the whole matrix of things
that was going on at that time.
1240
01:17:36,813 --> 01:17:41,648
But he was also on the cusp
of exactly what he wanted,
1241
01:17:41,718 --> 01:17:46,178
which was to get out of Manchester,
1242
01:17:46,256 --> 01:17:49,657
to travel and see the world,
to go to America,
1243
01:17:49,726 --> 01:17:52,456
the land of some of his heroes.
1244
01:17:52,529 --> 01:17:55,396
Why would he want to do himself in
the night before that?
1245
01:17:55,465 --> 01:17:57,126
You know, it's 24 hours from Tulsa,
isn't it?
1246
01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:00,966
24 hours from the plane to America.
1247
01:18:11,181 --> 01:18:13,115
Going to America that Monday,
1248
01:18:13,183 --> 01:18:16,277
Ian had gone back to live with his mum and dad.
1249
01:18:16,352 --> 01:18:18,479
I called him Thursday or something,
1250
01:18:18,555 --> 01:18:23,419
and he just phoned me on the Saturday
or the Friday night, one of them.
1251
01:18:23,493 --> 01:18:24,858
He said,
"I can't go out tomorrow.
1252
01:18:24,928 --> 01:18:27,089
I'm gonna go and see Debbie
before we go away."
1253
01:18:27,163 --> 01:18:31,122
I did kind of think "Uh-oh" a little bit,
you know.
1254
01:18:31,201 --> 01:18:34,295
It's gonna end in tears, at least,
or they're gonna have an argument.
1255
01:18:40,276 --> 01:18:41,607
So, I said,
"Are you sure?
1256
01:18:41,678 --> 01:18:44,544
Why don't you just come out and have a drink,
we'll have a laugh, you know?"
1257
01:18:44,614 --> 01:18:46,878
He was, like,
"No, I've got to see her."
1258
01:18:47,250 --> 01:18:51,920
I was probably in Belgium for about five days
before I was due to return to go back to England.
1259
01:18:51,988 --> 01:18:55,048
The last time we spoke together
was on the Saturday night.
1260
01:18:55,124 --> 01:18:57,991
It was very short,
and I couldn't hear him very well.
1261
01:18:58,061 --> 01:19:02,020
I was in the backstage
with lots of people around,
1262
01:19:02,098 --> 01:19:07,795
and he said that it's imperative that we have to meet
before they go to America.
1263
01:19:07,871 --> 01:19:11,600
Because why, it would be like seven or eight weeks
without seeing each other.
1264
01:19:11,674 --> 01:19:16,406
And basically, we just agreed
that he should call me at home the following day,
1265
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:22,973
and he told me he was listening to a record,
and he was going to watch a film,
1266
01:19:23,319 --> 01:19:25,844
and he was alone.
1267
01:19:31,761 --> 01:19:34,059
I was the first one to be told,
1268
01:19:34,130 --> 01:19:37,463
and it was really weird
because I was sitting down,
1269
01:19:37,533 --> 01:19:43,005
just about to have me Sunday lunch,
me and Iris, and the phone rang.
1270
01:19:43,072 --> 01:19:45,006
Literally like that.
1271
01:19:45,074 --> 01:19:49,306
I went on the phone, and they said,
"Oh, this is Police so-and-so.
1272
01:19:49,379 --> 01:19:50,778
We're trying to get in touch with Rob Gretton."
1273
01:19:50,847 --> 01:19:52,371
And I said,
"Oh, he should be at home."
1274
01:19:52,448 --> 01:19:54,313
He said, "Oh, we phoned him at home.
He's not there."
1275
01:19:54,384 --> 01:19:55,476
I said,
"Why, what's the problem?"
1276
01:19:55,551 --> 01:19:57,143
And he went,
"Oh, well, we've got a...
1277
01:19:57,220 --> 01:20:01,823
You know, sorry to tell you this,
but Ian Curtis has committed suicide."
1278
01:20:01,891 --> 01:20:04,291
And I went,
"Oh, right. Okay."
1279
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:08,957
And he went, "Right, well, if you speak to Mr. Gretton,
could you get him to call us?" you know.
1280
01:20:09,032 --> 01:20:10,659
And I went,
"Yeah, right. Okay."
1281
01:20:10,733 --> 01:20:14,965
And put the phone down and went...
sat back, and had me dinner.
1282
01:20:15,038 --> 01:20:18,201
And then Iris said to me,
"Oh, who was on the phone, by the way?"
1283
01:20:18,274 --> 01:20:20,640
And I went,
"Oh, it's Ian. He's killed himself."
1284
01:20:23,713 --> 01:20:28,147
And that was it, then. That was...
you know, the shock of it.
1285
01:20:28,217 --> 01:20:30,685
It was really weird. Horrible.
1286
01:20:30,753 --> 01:20:32,277
When he first tried to commit suicide,
1287
01:20:32,355 --> 01:20:36,655
when he took the overdose,
it was a complete surprise.
1288
01:20:36,726 --> 01:20:41,290
In fact, when he actually did commit suicide,
and Rob told me,
1289
01:20:41,364 --> 01:20:43,958
I said,
"What, he's tried it again?
1290
01:20:44,033 --> 01:20:46,695
You know, I can't believe it.
He's tried it again."
1291
01:20:46,769 --> 01:20:50,500
And he said,
"No, he has. He's dead."
1292
01:20:50,573 --> 01:20:52,564
I was, like,
"What, he's tried it..."
1293
01:20:52,642 --> 01:20:55,770
He said,
"No, he's dead. He's done it."
1294
01:20:55,845 --> 01:20:59,474
Everything there seems a blur after that,
really, you know.
1295
01:20:59,549 --> 01:21:03,285
Just spent most of the time in the pub,
spent most of the time together, all of us.
1296
01:21:03,353 --> 01:21:06,845
Me, Twinny, Terry, Barney,
we'd all go and sit together.
1297
01:21:06,923 --> 01:21:08,083
Just sit in the pub together.
1298
01:21:08,157 --> 01:21:10,455
We just couldn't take it in, really.
1299
01:21:10,526 --> 01:21:13,427
It's hard to say.
1300
01:21:13,496 --> 01:21:18,263
Sort of 50% sad and 50% angry...
1301
01:21:18,334 --> 01:21:20,325
really.
1302
01:21:20,403 --> 01:21:23,167
Angry at him.
1303
01:21:23,239 --> 01:21:30,202
Really, for being stupid and doing that,
1304
01:21:30,279 --> 01:21:36,013
and angry at myself for not doing something.
1305
01:21:37,854 --> 01:21:41,517
Uh...
1306
01:21:41,591 --> 01:21:42,717
Yeah.
1307
01:21:44,627 --> 01:21:46,117
I arrived in London.
1308
01:21:46,195 --> 01:21:48,720
Ian never rang,
so I thought maybe there's a problem.
1309
01:21:48,798 --> 01:21:53,293
I should call his parents, at his parents,
because that's where he was staying...
1310
01:21:53,369 --> 01:21:55,200
where he was supposed to stay,
1311
01:21:55,271 --> 01:22:00,699
and, uh, when I called,
his father just said, "Ian is dead."
1312
01:22:00,777 --> 01:22:05,714
And he put the phone down,
and that was it.
1313
01:22:08,217 --> 01:22:10,481
I came home from work,
and there's this piece of paper.
1314
01:22:10,553 --> 01:22:14,649
I looked at it, and it says
"Singer kills himself on eve of tour."
1315
01:22:14,724 --> 01:22:19,058
You think,
"This isn't true.",
1316
01:22:19,128 --> 01:22:23,664
and then you get a feeling of anger where you say,
"You twat. Why have you done that?"
1317
01:22:25,768 --> 01:22:28,933
"You bastard," you know,
"you should've stuck it out with the rest of us."
1318
01:22:31,307 --> 01:22:32,569
We didn't go to the wake.
1319
01:22:32,642 --> 01:22:34,269
I don't think we were welcome, really, somehow.
1320
01:22:34,343 --> 01:22:41,910
I mean, one of my greatest regrets in life is
I didn't go and see him, you know, after he was dead.
1321
01:22:41,984 --> 01:22:45,442
I really, really do regret that.
1322
01:22:45,521 --> 01:22:48,984
But I think we were so young,
we didn't know what the bloody hell...
1323
01:22:49,058 --> 01:22:50,355
Nobody offered it, you know.
1324
01:22:50,426 --> 01:22:52,018
I think if somebody said,
"Oh, you wanna go see him?"
1325
01:22:52,095 --> 01:22:53,926
We'd go, "Fuck you, mate.
Do I wanna go and see a dead body?
1326
01:22:53,996 --> 01:22:58,433
Do I fuck. You know, I'm 22.
I'm gonna go to the pub for a while."
1327
01:22:58,501 --> 01:23:03,335
But, you know, I really do regret not seeing him
and saying good-bye now. I really do.
1328
01:23:03,406 --> 01:23:05,840
It was only Bernard and I that didn't go.
1329
01:23:05,908 --> 01:23:08,069
Everybody else went, you know.
1330
01:23:08,144 --> 01:23:10,578
So then it was my job to look after Annik.
1331
01:23:10,646 --> 01:23:13,046
So I didn't go to the funeral
because it was my job
1332
01:23:13,116 --> 01:23:15,311
to make sure Annik got
on the plane back to Brussels,
1333
01:23:15,384 --> 01:23:17,978
and there was no scene at the funeral.
1334
01:23:18,054 --> 01:23:21,490
And sent me looking after Annik
for five or six days.
1335
01:23:21,557 --> 01:23:22,888
I'm sure Annik probably doesn't remember this,
1336
01:23:22,959 --> 01:23:31,397
but, uh, she was playing both albums
back to back, non-stop, 24 hours a day,
1337
01:23:31,467 --> 01:23:35,062
for about the entire time
she stayed in the cottage.
1338
01:23:35,138 --> 01:23:36,400
There ya go.
1339
01:23:36,472 --> 01:23:39,600
I didn't go to the funeral, but I went around
to Factory Records after the funeral,
1340
01:23:39,675 --> 01:23:41,575
and they played
The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle.
1341
01:23:41,644 --> 01:23:45,344
I always remember that,
and I just remember being frozen throughout it,
1342
01:23:45,414 --> 01:23:47,211
and I think we all were in the room.
1343
01:23:47,283 --> 01:23:50,844
Um, frozen at the...
1344
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:56,083
at the aptness and the absolute ridiculous stupidity
that we should be doing this,
1345
01:23:56,157 --> 01:23:59,094
so it was the classic
putting on a brave face, I guess.
1346
01:23:59,162 --> 01:24:02,097
And doing it in a showy way.
1347
01:24:02,165 --> 01:24:05,862
And not really dealing with the emotion.
1348
01:24:05,935 --> 01:24:09,132
It was almost like we were just
too damned self-conscious
1349
01:24:09,205 --> 01:24:12,834
about maintaining
a ridiculous kind of degraded cool,
1350
01:24:12,909 --> 01:24:14,774
a kind of cool that in a way,
1351
01:24:14,844 --> 01:24:18,609
a lot of that thing at that time was meant to destroy,
but we still, you know,
1352
01:24:18,681 --> 01:24:20,672
didn't really talk to each other.
1353
01:24:20,750 --> 01:24:23,844
The day Tony found me to tell me
that Ian had died,
1354
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:28,949
it was during that conversation
that I suddenly thought of the cover we had.
1355
01:24:31,794 --> 01:24:35,992
And I felt it necessary to point it out.
1356
01:24:36,065 --> 01:24:39,831
And Tony was very concerned.
1357
01:24:39,902 --> 01:24:47,399
The... The notions of sensationalism
or exploitation were lying there,
1358
01:24:47,476 --> 01:24:51,742
and I said, "Tony, we've got a tomb
on the cover of the album."
1359
01:24:51,814 --> 01:24:53,304
And he was like,
"Oh, fuck."
1360
01:25:01,991 --> 01:25:06,155
'Cause Joy Division ends,
1361
01:25:06,229 --> 01:25:11,823
'cause it all ends with a jolt,
the jolt of a rope,
1362
01:25:11,901 --> 01:25:15,098
there's a tendency to end the story there.
1363
01:25:15,171 --> 01:25:20,370
I think the important thing
is not to end the story there.
1364
01:25:20,443 --> 01:25:21,808
Why did we decide to carry on?
1365
01:25:21,877 --> 01:25:23,105
We just carried on.
1366
01:25:23,179 --> 01:25:26,774
We never even thought, "Should we?
Should we carry on or not carry on?"
1367
01:25:26,849 --> 01:25:31,445
We went to the funeral,
went to the wake at Palatyne Road,
1368
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:34,887
and then it was so...
1369
01:25:34,957 --> 01:25:37,983
"Monday?
All right, see you on Monday, then."
1370
01:25:38,060 --> 01:25:40,927
That was...
That was it.
1371
01:25:47,103 --> 01:25:49,765
I did everything
1372
01:25:49,839 --> 01:25:53,969
Everything that I wanted to
1373
01:25:54,043 --> 01:25:57,137
I let them use you
1374
01:25:57,213 --> 01:26:01,081
For their own ends
1375
01:26:01,150 --> 01:26:04,313
To the center of the city in the night
1376
01:26:04,387 --> 01:26:05,786
Looking for you
1377
01:26:08,357 --> 01:26:10,917
To the center of the city in the night
1378
01:26:10,993 --> 01:26:13,052
Waiting for you
1379
01:26:15,364 --> 01:26:19,824
The beauty of Joy Division
is that we did it, four of us.
1380
01:26:19,902 --> 01:26:22,996
Didn't know what we were doing,
didn't know why we were doing it.
1381
01:26:23,072 --> 01:26:25,006
The chemistry was unbelievable.
1382
01:26:25,074 --> 01:26:27,565
Take...
Talk to one of us, we didn't know.
1383
01:26:27,643 --> 01:26:29,235
Maybe Ian might have known.
1384
01:26:29,312 --> 01:26:31,007
I suppose that's something
we'll never find out.
1385
01:26:31,080 --> 01:26:35,642
But, you know,
it was just pure chemistry, four people.
1386
01:26:35,718 --> 01:26:39,950
And it was easy.
It was easy, writing those songs,
1387
01:26:40,022 --> 01:26:41,751
playing that well.
1388
01:26:41,824 --> 01:26:43,018
It was easy.
1389
01:26:43,092 --> 01:26:44,992
It only got difficult when he died.
1390
01:27:10,586 --> 01:27:17,121
The revolution that Joy Division created
and were at the heart of
1391
01:27:17,193 --> 01:27:23,288
and inspired many other people to take part in,
of not differentiating between dance and rock,
1392
01:27:23,366 --> 01:27:25,857
has resulted in this modern city,
1393
01:27:25,935 --> 01:27:31,097
and what was the original modern city becoming,
again, a modern city.
1394
01:27:41,016 --> 01:27:44,645
The vibrancy of the city,
the expectations of the city,
1395
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:47,450
all those things are the legacy of Joy Division.
1396
01:27:49,592 --> 01:27:52,557
I think what they managed to do
had a kind of truth to it,
1397
01:27:52,628 --> 01:27:55,995
that has sustained
through the fluctuations of fashion.
1398
01:27:56,065 --> 01:27:58,795
And integrity,
something you can believe in,
1399
01:27:58,868 --> 01:28:03,265
something that didn't seem to be just for the money,
for the career, it was anti-industry,
1400
01:28:03,339 --> 01:28:08,036
all the things that ultimately seemed important
to the maintenance of popular culture.
1401
01:28:08,110 --> 01:28:11,045
The reinvention of what cool is.
1402
01:28:11,113 --> 01:28:16,144
Those that exploit, you know,
can make good use of something like Joy Division
1403
01:28:16,218 --> 01:28:20,382
because it explains some of the rules
of what it is to be cool.
1404
01:28:20,456 --> 01:28:25,554
The two works are
Unknown Pleasures and Closer,
1405
01:28:25,628 --> 01:28:27,755
and that's it.
1406
01:28:27,830 --> 01:28:32,062
Everything else is merchandising.
1407
01:28:32,134 --> 01:28:36,366
Merchandising of memory.
1408
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:39,865
We're living in a time
where brands are everything.
1409
01:28:39,942 --> 01:28:42,433
But Joy Division went beyond all that
1410
01:28:42,511 --> 01:28:46,470
because you could simply trust
what they were doing.
1411
01:28:46,549 --> 01:28:51,980
Joy Division in particular,
Factory in general, Ian's story,
1412
01:28:52,054 --> 01:28:55,512
is one of the last true stories in pop.
1413
01:28:55,591 --> 01:29:02,955
There are very few true stories
in a business-dominated pop culture.
1414
01:29:03,032 --> 01:29:04,556
Yes, it's a fabulous story,
1415
01:29:04,633 --> 01:29:07,796
the story of the rebuilding of a city
that begins with them,
1416
01:29:07,870 --> 01:29:12,002
the story of a tragic suicide,
a moral story,
1417
01:29:12,074 --> 01:29:16,101
and a cultural, academic, intellectual,
aesthetic story.
1418
01:29:16,178 --> 01:29:17,668
The heart of it is only here
1419
01:29:17,746 --> 01:29:19,839
'cause they wrote great songs,
and great songs never die.
1420
01:29:24,386 --> 01:29:31,189
Walk in silence
1421
01:29:31,260 --> 01:29:39,360
Don't walk away in silence
1422
01:29:39,435 --> 01:29:43,496
See the danger
1423
01:29:43,572 --> 01:29:47,668
Always danger
1424
01:29:47,743 --> 01:29:51,577
Endless talking
1425
01:29:51,647 --> 01:29:55,606
Life rebuilding
1426
01:29:55,684 --> 01:29:58,482
Don't walk away
1427
01:30:27,983 --> 01:30:35,287
Walk in silence
1428
01:30:35,357 --> 01:30:43,196
Don't turn away in silence
1429
01:30:43,265 --> 01:30:47,326
Your confusion
1430
01:30:47,403 --> 01:30:51,203
My illusion
1431
01:30:51,273 --> 01:30:55,869
Worn like a mask of self-hate
1432
01:30:55,945 --> 01:30:59,381
Confronts and then dies
1433
01:30:59,448 --> 01:31:03,509
Don't walk away
1434
01:31:33,015 --> 01:31:38,715
People like you find it easy
1435
01:31:38,787 --> 01:31:42,848
Naked to see
1436
01:31:42,925 --> 01:31:48,693
Walking on air
1437
01:31:48,764 --> 01:31:50,356
Hunting by the rivers
1438
01:31:50,432 --> 01:31:51,524
Through the streets
1439
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:54,728
Every corner
1440
01:31:54,803 --> 01:31:58,295
Abandoned too soon
1441
01:31:58,374 --> 01:32:03,004
Set down with due care
1442
01:32:03,078 --> 01:32:11,178
Don't walk away in silence
1443
01:32:11,253 --> 01:32:15,087
Don't walk away
121103
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