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1
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The film started as a joke.
2
00:00:06,421 --> 00:00:10,858
A bad joke I made during the editing
of La Bande des Quatre
3
00:00:10,981 --> 00:00:15,293
because in that film,
I don't know if you remember it
4
00:00:15,421 --> 00:00:20,256
there is a character called Thomas
and played by Benoît Régent
5
00:00:20,381 --> 00:00:25,660
and when he approaches
Laurence Côte
6
00:00:25,781 --> 00:00:32,971
he starts talking
about investigating lost paintings.
7
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I had suggested to Pascal
this imaginary painting
8
00:00:37,541 --> 00:00:41,693
La Belle Noiseuse by Frenhofer.
9
00:00:41,821 --> 00:00:46,770
And in about a minute and a half
he tells her the story by Balzac.
10
00:00:46,901 --> 00:00:49,051
Frenhofer, do you know him?
11
00:00:49,181 --> 00:00:53,060
- One of your guys?
- Not at all.
12
00:00:55,341 --> 00:00:56,979
No, he's a painter...
13
00:00:57,101 --> 00:01:00,138
A great painter who lived 300 years ago.
14
00:01:01,581 --> 00:01:04,015
He was Poussin's unknown master...
15
00:01:04,141 --> 00:01:07,258
His most beautiful painting
is La Belle Noiseuse...
16
00:01:07,381 --> 00:01:11,693
And after that, we went out for lunch
with some friends
17
00:01:11,821 --> 00:01:14,016
who would ask me
what my next film would be
18
00:01:14,141 --> 00:01:16,655
I would say
The Unknown Masterpiece
19
00:01:16,781 --> 00:01:19,898
because if people
don't understand the film
20
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I could say, it's normal because
it's The Unknown Masterpiece
21
00:01:24,941 --> 00:01:26,579
That's how it all started.
22
00:01:26,701 --> 00:01:30,535
I thought...
Right from the beginning
23
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I was interested
in the painter and his model
24
00:01:33,341 --> 00:01:36,378
and not in telling the story
of the painting itself.
25
00:01:38,701 --> 00:01:41,215
And then,
the more I would say it as a joke,
26
00:01:41,341 --> 00:01:43,457
the more I would think about it...
27
00:01:44,181 --> 00:01:47,457
The bad thing about bad jokes
is that sometimes...
28
00:01:47,581 --> 00:01:51,859
they stick in your mind
and make you think.
29
00:01:51,981 --> 00:01:55,974
I thought "Why not after all...
That could be interesting".
30
00:01:56,501 --> 00:02:00,335
And one night I told Claire Denis
about it over dinner...
31
00:02:00,461 --> 00:02:06,775
At the time she was working on
our conversations with Serge Daney
32
00:02:06,901 --> 00:02:10,576
two or three weeks before
33
00:02:10,701 --> 00:02:15,013
and we were having dinner, talking about
this and that and then she asked me:
34
00:02:15,141 --> 00:02:16,733
Do you have a new film in mind?
35
00:02:16,861 --> 00:02:18,977
So I told her the whole story
36
00:02:19,701 --> 00:02:21,896
and asked what she thought...
37
00:02:23,021 --> 00:02:25,581
I told her the story in 3 minutes
38
00:02:25,701 --> 00:02:28,773
and she got all excited,
"you have to do it". And I said yes.
39
00:02:28,901 --> 00:02:30,971
"But something is stopping me".
40
00:02:31,101 --> 00:02:35,891
"Does it have to be a painter playing
Frenhofer or an actor?"
41
00:02:36,021 --> 00:02:41,049
And she said "the way you told the story,
it has to be an actor".
42
00:02:41,181 --> 00:02:45,413
And I said immediately "if it's an actor".,
I can only think of one".
43
00:02:45,541 --> 00:02:49,295
There's only one actor in France who can
play the part, Michel Piccoli.
44
00:02:49,421 --> 00:02:54,256
And that's how in about 30 seconds
we dedicated to go for it.
45
00:02:54,381 --> 00:02:58,215
Of course I thought about it a bit longer
before talking to Martine
46
00:02:58,341 --> 00:03:02,539
so that she could ask Michel Piccoli
if he would do the film.
47
00:03:02,661 --> 00:03:04,731
But that's how it all started.
48
00:03:05,261 --> 00:03:08,333
So the film was never called
The Unknown Masterpiece
49
00:03:10,301 --> 00:03:14,180
Never, The Unknown Masterpiece was...
From the beginning we took...
50
00:03:14,301 --> 00:03:17,498
I often said it and I say it again.
51
00:03:17,621 --> 00:03:20,613
If I say it three times
it's even more true
52
00:03:20,741 --> 00:03:24,336
but here it's not three times
it's 33 if not 333 times.
53
00:03:24,461 --> 00:03:31,060
I believe that Balzac cannot be adapted
to the cinema or TV or whatever...
54
00:03:31,181 --> 00:03:35,493
You end up with a mere illustration
of his stories.
55
00:03:35,621 --> 00:03:40,695
On the other hand
it's an amazing source of ideas...
56
00:03:40,821 --> 00:03:46,532
And sometimes it's good
to go and steal some ideas
57
00:03:46,661 --> 00:03:50,131
and then change everything
58
00:03:50,261 --> 00:03:55,051
I'm not saying you should do Rastignac
like on TV, when channel France 2 did it.
59
00:03:55,781 --> 00:03:58,249
But that's the right idea.
60
00:03:58,381 --> 00:04:01,498
Except that they... well...
Let's not talk about it.
61
00:04:02,741 --> 00:04:06,450
Even if you immediately
thought of Michel Piccoli,
62
00:04:06,581 --> 00:04:09,937
the funny thing is
that you still needed a real painter.
63
00:04:10,061 --> 00:04:12,211
Yes, of course.
64
00:04:13,221 --> 00:04:16,054
Bernard Dufour
came to my mind very quickly
65
00:04:16,181 --> 00:04:19,059
because I had seen
a lot of his work in the 60s
66
00:04:19,181 --> 00:04:21,490
and I had been very impressed by it.
67
00:04:21,621 --> 00:04:26,012
The fact that he deliberately clung
to figurative painting
68
00:04:26,141 --> 00:04:28,939
and still with such energy...
69
00:04:29,061 --> 00:04:31,655
I thought there was
a lot of energy in his work.
70
00:04:32,781 --> 00:04:36,569
So it wasn't long before
we asked him and...
71
00:04:36,701 --> 00:04:40,250
some friends of Martine's
just happened to know him very well
72
00:04:40,381 --> 00:04:42,656
so we met him and he said OK.
73
00:04:43,061 --> 00:04:46,849
The making of La Belle Noiseuse
went very smoothly.
74
00:04:46,981 --> 00:04:49,415
And as the painter's hand
Bernard Dufour.
75
00:04:49,981 --> 00:04:51,539
The interesting thing is how
76
00:04:51,661 --> 00:04:55,290
from La Belle Noiseuse
- a 4-hour film right?
77
00:04:55,421 --> 00:04:57,651
Four hours exactly.
78
00:04:57,781 --> 00:05:00,056
Plus the intermission.
79
00:05:00,181 --> 00:05:04,811
...you came to Divertimento,
the 2-hour short version.
80
00:05:04,941 --> 00:05:11,653
- So Divertimento is...
- The thing is it was edited long after...
81
00:05:11,781 --> 00:05:15,456
The film was finished,
we had been to the Cannes Festival
82
00:05:15,581 --> 00:05:21,292
where the film was extremely well received-
we got an award-
83
00:05:23,741 --> 00:05:27,859
but then there was still
that contract somewhere
84
00:05:30,021 --> 00:05:35,539
And so I worked with Nicole throughout the
the summer - we weren't in a hurry.
85
00:05:35,661 --> 00:05:39,734
It must have taken us
four or five weeks.
86
00:05:39,861 --> 00:05:42,853
We did it slowly
when we felt like it.
87
00:05:43,621 --> 00:05:45,771
And we dedicated to work
from the outtakes only.
88
00:05:45,901 --> 00:05:49,974
That's why there's practically nothing
of the sittings
89
00:05:50,101 --> 00:05:53,377
because everything
was in the 4-hour film.
90
00:05:53,501 --> 00:05:58,529
When Bernard had drawn something
or started something
91
00:05:58,661 --> 00:06:03,052
there was only one take,
a second one would have been pointless.
92
00:06:03,181 --> 00:06:06,651
So everything in Divertimento
was edited from different takes.
93
00:06:06,781 --> 00:06:07,816
With no exception.
94
00:06:07,941 --> 00:06:10,501
And the editing is entirely different.
95
00:06:10,621 --> 00:06:13,215
Whereas in the long version
we have a lot of cuts,
96
00:06:13,341 --> 00:06:15,980
here we keep
the whole duration of the shot.
97
00:06:16,101 --> 00:06:19,650
There's one example I always like to cite.
It's the scene...
98
00:06:19,781 --> 00:06:23,296
at the beginning, the first night
99
00:06:23,421 --> 00:06:25,696
the different characters have just met
100
00:06:25,821 --> 00:06:30,611
and Frenhofer invites everybody to stay
for dinner, they are all eating outside
101
00:06:30,741 --> 00:06:35,815
and on one side of the table
we have Frenhofer and Marianne,
102
00:06:35,941 --> 00:06:37,818
Michel and Emmanuelle
103
00:06:37,941 --> 00:06:42,617
and on the other side
we have Jane and David
104
00:06:42,741 --> 00:06:44,936
and at the end of table we have Porbus.
105
00:06:46,821 --> 00:06:51,019
I had shot the scene
in a very classic way.
106
00:06:51,141 --> 00:06:56,169
One side of the table,
a 3-minute scene, something like that
107
00:06:56,301 --> 00:06:59,179
with Michel and Emmanuelle
108
00:06:59,301 --> 00:07:02,054
and then the other side
with Jane and David
109
00:07:02,181 --> 00:07:04,456
and of course a few shots of Porbus
110
00:07:04,581 --> 00:07:08,017
whom we see turning pale
as the conversation unfolds
111
00:07:08,621 --> 00:07:12,614
and in the long version
we have lots of different cuts.
112
00:07:12,741 --> 00:07:16,416
We cut to Porbus then on the others,
and so on...
113
00:07:19,021 --> 00:07:23,731
The children went to agricultural college.
114
00:07:23,861 --> 00:07:25,897
There were 12 of them.
115
00:07:26,661 --> 00:07:28,777
So you love Nicolas?
116
00:07:34,141 --> 00:07:38,851
And he loves you very much too,
it's obvious.
117
00:07:40,781 --> 00:07:43,011
Don't get upset, he's always like that.
118
00:07:44,021 --> 00:07:45,852
I'm not upset, I'm listening.
119
00:07:49,701 --> 00:07:54,058
Would you agree
if he was to put his painting before you?
120
00:07:59,781 --> 00:08:02,659
Would you agree to...
121
00:08:02,781 --> 00:08:05,295
to lose him for a painting?
122
00:08:11,341 --> 00:08:12,933
Anyway...
123
00:08:13,341 --> 00:08:17,732
if Nicolas wasn't going all the way,
I'd lose him because I'd leave him.
124
00:08:24,061 --> 00:08:25,619
Why should we lose each other?
125
00:08:28,421 --> 00:08:31,538
We painters are after the truth
and truth can be cruel.
126
00:08:33,381 --> 00:08:36,612
Hubble bubble toil and trouble,
you never lost me.
127
00:08:37,861 --> 00:08:39,294
I almost did.
128
00:08:52,421 --> 00:08:54,810
And in the 2-hour version
129
00:08:54,941 --> 00:08:59,298
we have the camera closing in on...
130
00:08:59,421 --> 00:09:02,731
We have a wide shot of the table
131
00:09:02,861 --> 00:09:05,898
closing in on Michel and Emmanuelle
132
00:09:06,021 --> 00:09:10,173
and for two thirds of the scene
it's only the two of them
133
00:09:10,301 --> 00:09:12,132
Jane and David being off camera
134
00:09:12,261 --> 00:09:17,381
and then after the two thirds
we go to the other side of the table
135
00:09:17,501 --> 00:09:20,971
and the others are off
we only have one cut.
136
00:09:21,101 --> 00:09:24,730
We come back to the wide shot
when Porbus faints.
137
00:09:24,861 --> 00:09:28,934
...children went to...
138
00:09:31,421 --> 00:09:33,457
an agricultural college.
139
00:09:33,581 --> 00:09:35,378
There were 12 of them.
140
00:09:35,501 --> 00:09:37,457
So you love Nicolas?
141
00:09:41,541 --> 00:09:45,170
And he loves you very much too,
it's obvious.
142
00:09:48,501 --> 00:09:52,494
- Don't get upset, he's always like that.
- I'm not upset, I'm listening.
143
00:09:57,821 --> 00:10:01,177
Would you allow him to put his painting
before you?
144
00:10:03,541 --> 00:10:06,578
Would you agree to lose him
for a painting?
145
00:10:11,061 --> 00:10:12,779
Anyway...
146
00:10:13,541 --> 00:10:17,216
if Nicolas wasn't going all the way
147
00:10:17,341 --> 00:10:18,774
I would lose him anyway...
148
00:10:19,781 --> 00:10:21,897
because I would leave him.
149
00:10:24,621 --> 00:10:26,976
Why should we lose each other?
150
00:10:27,101 --> 00:10:32,619
We painters are after the truth
and truth can be cruel.
151
00:10:33,301 --> 00:10:37,055
Hubble bubble toil and trouble
you never lost me.
152
00:10:37,821 --> 00:10:39,220
I almost did.
153
00:10:45,061 --> 00:10:48,940
It seemed to me that Jane Birkin's
character was more important...
154
00:10:49,061 --> 00:10:51,655
in a way yes because we cut a lot of...
155
00:10:51,781 --> 00:10:55,774
it wasn't cut
because there wasn't any material left!
156
00:10:55,901 --> 00:10:57,619
I had used everything.
157
00:10:57,741 --> 00:11:02,098
I couldn't show shots of Emmanuelle
without the drawings.
158
00:11:02,221 --> 00:11:04,860
So I kept very few of them.
159
00:11:04,981 --> 00:11:07,097
A few at the beginning of course.
160
00:11:07,821 --> 00:11:10,972
We had a few shots left...
161
00:11:12,261 --> 00:11:16,015
A few times he had started drawing
something and he didn't like it so...
162
00:11:16,141 --> 00:11:18,371
he would start again
and we used that.
163
00:11:37,141 --> 00:11:38,574
That's very funny.
164
00:11:38,701 --> 00:11:44,731
You have to have fun when you do that
because editing can be so boring.
165
00:11:44,861 --> 00:11:48,137
Either you do it very quickly
like L'Amour par terre,
166
00:11:48,261 --> 00:11:52,174
or you try to have fun
by trying something totally different.
167
00:11:52,301 --> 00:11:56,613
How did you find the title Divertimento?
With Nicole during editing?
168
00:11:56,741 --> 00:11:59,699
It was a bit of a whim.
169
00:11:59,821 --> 00:12:01,334
It's because...
170
00:12:01,461 --> 00:12:07,570
Since I was 14
I have been a huge fan of Igor Stravinsky
171
00:12:07,701 --> 00:12:12,013
when I heard the The Rite of Spring
on the radio for the first time in my life
172
00:12:12,141 --> 00:12:14,496
during the Occupation
173
00:12:14,621 --> 00:12:17,374
it was a shock
and I never recovered from it.
174
00:12:17,501 --> 00:12:19,139
His entire work.
175
00:12:19,261 --> 00:12:21,934
And here for the film
176
00:12:22,061 --> 00:12:25,531
for the first time I dared
to have Stravinsky
177
00:12:25,661 --> 00:12:28,221
for the opening and end credits.
178
00:12:28,341 --> 00:12:32,857
It was Agon's Prelude and Postlude.
179
00:12:32,981 --> 00:12:37,179
One of his most beautiful ballets,
the last one he wrote for Balanchine.
180
00:12:37,301 --> 00:12:40,611
With a little bit of Petrushka.
181
00:12:43,741 --> 00:12:48,178
Stravinsky wrote several orchestra suites
based on long ballet scores
182
00:12:48,301 --> 00:12:54,012
and one, not my favorite,
written for...
183
00:12:55,421 --> 00:12:57,855
the Ballets russes in the 20s I think
184
00:12:58,501 --> 00:13:01,732
...in his neoclassical phase
was the Fairy's Kiss
185
00:13:01,861 --> 00:13:04,170
based only on themes by Tchaikovsky
186
00:13:04,301 --> 00:13:07,338
because he was a great admirer
of Tchaikovsky.
187
00:13:07,461 --> 00:13:12,854
He made a short version of it for
orchestra and called it Divertimento.
188
00:13:16,461 --> 00:13:19,658
It's a reference to Mr. Igor
189
00:13:19,781 --> 00:13:23,979
the Great Igor
as Claude Chabrol used to say.
190
00:13:24,101 --> 00:13:25,819
And he was right.
15952
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