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- Hello.
- Hi, I'm Louis.
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I'm Louis.
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Oh, I can't shake your hand.
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[laughter]
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Louis narrates: For 25 years,
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I've been making
programmes about life
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in all its strangeness...
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Stand by,
information to follow.
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- ..mystery...
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- Who are you?
- I'm Louis.
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- Who's Louis?
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Louis narrates: ..and angst.
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You OK, Nicky?
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00:00:31,206 --> 00:00:33,166
Louis narrates: Trying to
make connections with people
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who are, in different ways,
on the edge.
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Not all of us
want to be like this.
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00:00:40,862 --> 00:00:43,382
Recently, I decided
to take a pause
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and trawl through my old shows,
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00:00:46,137 --> 00:00:49,067
looking again at some stories
that stayed with me.
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00:00:49,172 --> 00:00:50,832
Yeah, this has stuff in it.
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00:00:50,931 --> 00:00:53,071
Louis narrates: And to reach out
to those I'd featured...
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00:00:53,172 --> 00:00:56,172
- Look at you,
Mr Beard and Moustache.
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I know, don't I
look distinguished?
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- ..to see how
their lives have changed.
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You've been married six times?
26
00:01:01,344 --> 00:01:02,794
Henry VIII
was married six times,
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so it's not unprecedented.
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[laughs]
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00:01:05,965 --> 00:01:09,855
- Hey, how you doing?
- Good, how are you?
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00:01:09,965 --> 00:01:11,855
Louis narrates: From all the
hours of programmes,
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I've teased out
a handful of themes.
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- This is gonna be the start
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of the second
American Civil War.
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White revolution!
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- You OK?
- It seems like every day
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I get delivered
from something else
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that I didn't even know I had.
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Louis narrates: All of which,
in different ways,
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go to the heart of
what it means to be human.
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00:01:32,068 --> 00:01:34,518
What connection is there
between a birth mum
41
00:01:34,620 --> 00:01:35,790
and a child?
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[woman whimpers]
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Louis narrates:
Trying to figure out
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00:01:38,655 --> 00:01:39,755
what I've learned about life.
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- Do you think this relationship
could survive outside here?
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- Oh, it will.
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- Yours?
- It will. Absolutely.
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Louis narrates:
And about myself.
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00:01:47,758 --> 00:01:49,278
- Do you feel you've got
a life in here?
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- You can make a life
as comfortable
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00:01:51,103 --> 00:01:53,033
as it can get in here...
52
00:01:53,137 --> 00:01:55,617
..if you put your mind to it.
53
00:01:55,724 --> 00:01:57,244
- You see them police
right now?
54
00:01:57,344 --> 00:01:59,834
It's them against us.
55
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It's not a white-on-black,
it's a BLUE-on-black.
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Radio: A state of high tension
tonight
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as the country braces itself
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for another wave of protests
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00:02:16,724 --> 00:02:18,524
over the death of George Floyd.
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The unarmed Mr Floyd,
who was Black,
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died in Minneapolis
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after being pinned to the ground
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by a white police officer.
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He was the latest in a string
of African-American men
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00:02:28,379 --> 00:02:30,969
to die through police action.
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00:02:31,068 --> 00:02:33,588
There've been protests
in at least 30 US cities,
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with violence,
looting and arson in some,
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00:02:36,275 --> 00:02:38,445
and several cities
have imposed curfews.
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00:02:40,379 --> 00:02:43,339
Louis: Among industrialised
nations,
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America has a unique
and fraught relationship
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00:02:46,206 --> 00:02:48,966
with its system
of criminal justice.
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Police radio:
Attention all units, tear gas
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is now being used in the area
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of 34th and Prospect,
New York West.
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- I pledge the oath
to launch a war
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00:02:58,862 --> 00:03:00,312
against the filth peddlers
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and the narcotics peddlers
who are corrupting the lives
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00:03:02,724 --> 00:03:05,314
of the children of this country.
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00:03:05,413 --> 00:03:07,523
Louis: It is a country
preoccupied
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00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:09,140
with the threat of crime,
81
00:03:09,241 --> 00:03:12,721
and also how to protect
itself against it.
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00:03:12,827 --> 00:03:15,137
- The American people
do not feel safe
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00:03:15,241 --> 00:03:17,241
on their streets,
in their schools,
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00:03:17,344 --> 00:03:20,864
in their homes, in their
places of work and worship.
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00:03:20,965 --> 00:03:22,655
Louis: Politicians
run for office
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00:03:22,758 --> 00:03:24,968
based on how tough
they are on crime.
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00:03:25,068 --> 00:03:29,618
- We will be a country
of law and order.
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00:03:29,724 --> 00:03:31,694
[cheering]
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00:03:31,793 --> 00:03:35,593
Louis: Many states still have
the death penalty
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00:03:35,689 --> 00:03:38,759
and there is a policy
of mass incarceration
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00:03:38,862 --> 00:03:41,592
that far outstrips
any other country on Earth.
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00:03:44,965 --> 00:03:46,545
Louis: Criminal justice
in general,
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00:03:46,655 --> 00:03:48,515
and crime,
was a subject I'd always
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00:03:48,620 --> 00:03:50,550
been interested in.
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00:03:50,655 --> 00:03:53,205
Up until then, I'd mainly
been making episodes
96
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of 'Weird Weekends',
which were just much lighter
97
00:03:55,689 --> 00:03:58,449
and more humorous in tone,
so it felt like a big step
98
00:03:58,551 --> 00:04:02,031
to take on
a really serious subject.
99
00:04:03,551 --> 00:04:06,341
And it wasn't clear how I'd
get involved in the story.
100
00:04:07,551 --> 00:04:09,861
And then I had the idea
of getting inside
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00:04:09,965 --> 00:04:11,515
a huge US prison
102
00:04:11,620 --> 00:04:14,280
and that that might be
a way of looking at
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00:04:14,379 --> 00:04:17,479
the American criminal justice
system in microcosm.
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00:04:19,724 --> 00:04:22,864
We did a deep trawl
of prisons around the US.
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We visited three -
that 'we' being my director
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and my producer, right?
107
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And they came back and said,
"San Quentin's the place."
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Thank you.
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00:04:38,172 --> 00:04:40,032
San Quentin is one of
America's oldest
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00:04:40,137 --> 00:04:41,757
and most notorious prisons
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00:04:41,862 --> 00:04:43,342
and one of the largest
in California,
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with over 3,000 inmates.
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- These are the real bad guys.
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Murder, rape, robbery,
extorting stuff
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from other inmates.
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They're considered
extremely dangerous.
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What are you in for?
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- Assault with deadly weapon.
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00:05:01,827 --> 00:05:04,277
- How long?
- 15 years.
120
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[banging]
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- Alright, it's cool.
122
00:05:08,793 --> 00:05:10,173
It's like
a playground here, man.
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It ain't nothing, man.
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Ain't nothing scary
about this.
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I've been in a cell
by myself for three years.
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00:05:16,482 --> 00:05:19,172
No windows, no sunlight.
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00:05:19,275 --> 00:05:21,995
Just locked up.
24 hours a day, locked up.
128
00:05:22,103 --> 00:05:24,213
Louis: What is it that makes
you keep coming back?
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00:05:24,310 --> 00:05:26,660
It's too easy to do the time.
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00:05:26,758 --> 00:05:28,408
- In what way?
- I don't know.
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To me, it's worth
taking the risks
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to live the way I want to live.
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00:05:36,310 --> 00:05:38,280
- What's up, boy?
Give me no fear...
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00:05:38,379 --> 00:05:40,139
Alright, alright.
135
00:05:41,793 --> 00:05:44,143
Louis: You're slightly on show
when you parade
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00:05:44,241 --> 00:05:46,341
in front of all those cells.
137
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It's an intimidating
sensation.
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00:05:49,241 --> 00:05:51,691
There's a lot of catcalls
and screaming,
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00:05:51,793 --> 00:05:54,073
shouts and people say,
140
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"I'm being held
against my will!"
141
00:05:55,793 --> 00:05:57,973
And just some of it comic
and some of it like,
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"Fuck off!" and, like, whatever.
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00:06:00,931 --> 00:06:03,451
- Hey, what's up, dawg?
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00:06:03,551 --> 00:06:07,311
Louis: One of the first inmates
I met was David Silva.
145
00:06:07,413 --> 00:06:09,483
What's your stretch?
What are you serving?
146
00:06:09,586 --> 00:06:11,716
Erm...
147
00:06:11,827 --> 00:06:14,277
..first I got to do 521 years,
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and then 11 life sentences.
149
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How come so much?
150
00:06:19,931 --> 00:06:21,411
'Cause I was on a...
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00:06:22,413 --> 00:06:24,003
..brutal...
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..erm, home invasion series
type of thing.
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Multiple home invasions.
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Brutal in what way?
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Just a lot of torture tactics.
156
00:06:34,965 --> 00:06:36,615
Were there any
fatalities involved?
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00:06:36,724 --> 00:06:38,344
Did you actually kill anyone?
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00:06:38,448 --> 00:06:41,238
- No, nobody died,
but some people...
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00:06:42,586 --> 00:06:43,966
..probably were at points
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00:06:44,068 --> 00:06:45,518
where they wish
they would have died.
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00:06:46,931 --> 00:06:49,071
Now, I guess I don't worry
about getting out no more,
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00:06:49,172 --> 00:06:50,592
I just got to...
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00:06:51,413 --> 00:06:53,033
..make my bed and...
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..live on through.
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00:07:02,482 --> 00:07:04,212
Louis: It was like a city
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00:07:04,310 --> 00:07:06,030
with its own districts
and suburbs,
167
00:07:06,137 --> 00:07:08,377
with its own culture
and its own areas
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00:07:08,482 --> 00:07:10,622
that had distinct personalities.
169
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,450
Quite quickly, one of
the things you notice is,
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especially during yard time,
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how segregated
the place is by race.
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- Tell me what
you're doing over here,
173
00:07:22,344 --> 00:07:24,074
- you're just relaxing?
- We're the white guys.
174
00:07:24,172 --> 00:07:25,622
- Are you the white gang?
- That's right.
175
00:07:25,724 --> 00:07:26,694
- Yeah.
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00:07:26,793 --> 00:07:28,723
- Do all the different races
have different areas?
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00:07:28,827 --> 00:07:30,587
- Yeah, that's like
the Black area over there,
178
00:07:30,689 --> 00:07:33,169
the Norteño area over there,
white area over here,
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00:07:33,275 --> 00:07:35,165
Indians over there.
180
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- We keep it segregated.
- How come?
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Because we don't want
to programme with them.
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00:07:39,862 --> 00:07:41,382
- Keep a clear line.
- Pretty much.
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00:07:41,482 --> 00:07:43,002
Hell, white power, you know?
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00:07:43,103 --> 00:07:44,553
I ain't programming with them.
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00:07:44,655 --> 00:07:47,335
[makes braying sounds]
186
00:07:49,517 --> 00:07:51,857
How did you hook up
with these guys?
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00:07:51,965 --> 00:07:53,785
- He's white.
- Yeah, yeah.
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00:07:53,896 --> 00:07:55,066
- We take care of our own.
189
00:07:55,172 --> 00:07:56,762
- Did you spot him?
'Cause he looks kind of new.
190
00:07:56,862 --> 00:07:58,342
You know, did you spot him
and think,
191
00:07:58,448 --> 00:08:00,378
well, you know,
"We'll look out for him?"
192
00:08:00,482 --> 00:08:01,522
- Oh, yeah.
193
00:08:01,620 --> 00:08:02,760
- Yeah, we work
in the kitchen together.
194
00:08:02,862 --> 00:08:04,312
We try to take care
of everybody.
195
00:08:04,413 --> 00:08:05,383
We work in the kitchen
together, too.
196
00:08:05,482 --> 00:08:06,412
- Yeah.
197
00:08:06,517 --> 00:08:10,137
Louis: In a way, it was accepted
by inmates that you didn't mix
198
00:08:10,241 --> 00:08:11,591
with other races.
199
00:08:11,689 --> 00:08:15,479
And, in fact, there were stiff
penalties if you broke rank.
200
00:08:17,586 --> 00:08:19,066
If you were Black
and you offered me
201
00:08:19,172 --> 00:08:20,762
some of that food,
I couldn't take it.
202
00:08:20,862 --> 00:08:21,792
Why?
203
00:08:21,896 --> 00:08:23,376
It's just part of the rules,
man.
204
00:08:23,482 --> 00:08:25,102
- Prison rules?
205
00:08:25,206 --> 00:08:27,476
- If you did, you'd get beat up.
206
00:08:27,586 --> 00:08:28,856
- Who would beat you up?
207
00:08:30,344 --> 00:08:31,314
Me.
208
00:08:31,413 --> 00:08:33,283
[laughter]
209
00:08:35,724 --> 00:08:38,834
Louis: I tended to see those
guys as people who were working
210
00:08:38,931 --> 00:08:41,761
within a system, a system
that they hadn't created.
211
00:08:41,862 --> 00:08:44,072
San Quentin
isn't the kind of place
212
00:08:44,172 --> 00:08:48,342
that gives you the option
of being a kind of modern,
213
00:08:48,448 --> 00:08:51,278
cosmopolitan
and enlightened dude.
214
00:08:57,103 --> 00:08:59,243
Many of the people
at San Quentin
215
00:08:59,344 --> 00:09:02,074
are passing through
to other facilities.
216
00:09:02,172 --> 00:09:03,692
It is the reception centre
217
00:09:03,793 --> 00:09:06,003
for Northern California prisons.
218
00:09:06,103 --> 00:09:09,383
There are also inmates
on short sentences.
219
00:09:09,482 --> 00:09:11,242
So there's a lot of traffic.
220
00:09:13,724 --> 00:09:15,074
I was keen to speak to somebody
221
00:09:15,172 --> 00:09:17,762
who was about to be released.
222
00:09:17,862 --> 00:09:19,172
An officer checked on the system
223
00:09:19,275 --> 00:09:22,165
and found someone called
Bradley Todd Worledge.
224
00:09:23,827 --> 00:09:27,207
We went to the cell and our
prison contact checked inside
225
00:09:27,310 --> 00:09:28,720
and then came out and said,
226
00:09:28,827 --> 00:09:30,517
"You're gonna
be interested in this
227
00:09:30,620 --> 00:09:35,210
"'cause, actually,
this person goes by Deborah."
228
00:09:37,172 --> 00:09:38,972
- How are we doing?
229
00:09:40,827 --> 00:09:42,587
My name's Louis,
I'm from the BBC.
230
00:09:42,689 --> 00:09:43,619
Hi.
231
00:09:43,724 --> 00:09:46,794
- So tell me a little bit
about how you ended up here.
232
00:09:46,896 --> 00:09:49,336
- OK, well, I guess, erm...
233
00:09:50,655 --> 00:09:52,235
..I've been doing this for like
234
00:09:52,344 --> 00:09:54,384
- almost 20 years, so...
- What?
235
00:09:54,482 --> 00:09:56,592
- Coming to prison.
- In and out?
236
00:09:56,689 --> 00:09:57,619
Yes.
237
00:09:57,724 --> 00:09:59,344
What were your convictions for?
238
00:09:59,448 --> 00:10:01,408
For robbery and a stolen car,
239
00:10:01,517 --> 00:10:04,857
being with guys
that were criminals,
240
00:10:04,965 --> 00:10:06,995
kind of going along with them.
241
00:10:07,103 --> 00:10:08,623
How long were you in this time?
242
00:10:09,655 --> 00:10:10,995
- Three months.
- Three months.
243
00:10:11,103 --> 00:10:14,033
- How's it been?
- It's been OK.
244
00:10:14,137 --> 00:10:16,547
Aside from always having
to worry about getting moved.
245
00:10:16,655 --> 00:10:17,855
- While we were talking,
246
00:10:17,965 --> 00:10:20,275
I noticed she was
looking inside...
247
00:10:21,896 --> 00:10:23,166
..as though someone
was in there,
248
00:10:23,275 --> 00:10:27,895
and I was like, "Well,
who's in there with you?"
249
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,930
And it was this guy called Rob.
250
00:10:32,034 --> 00:10:33,554
- May I open it?
- Yeah.
251
00:10:33,655 --> 00:10:35,065
Here, let me put my shoes on.
252
00:10:35,172 --> 00:10:36,932
Louis: Kind of a good-looking,
long-haired...
253
00:10:37,034 --> 00:10:38,664
he looked vaguely piratical,
254
00:10:38,758 --> 00:10:40,448
like he should have been
an extra
255
00:10:40,551 --> 00:10:42,101
in Pirates of the Caribbean.
256
00:10:42,206 --> 00:10:44,966
What is it that works
about the relationship?
257
00:10:45,068 --> 00:10:48,208
I don't know. It just does.
258
00:10:48,310 --> 00:10:50,240
She's real special,
you know what I'm saying?
259
00:10:50,344 --> 00:10:52,554
Shut the fuck up!
260
00:10:52,655 --> 00:10:53,995
Do you think this relationship
261
00:10:54,103 --> 00:10:56,033
- could survive outside here?
- Oh, it will.
262
00:10:56,137 --> 00:10:59,167
- Yours.
- It will, absolutely.
263
00:10:59,275 --> 00:11:01,755
- A lot of times,
something like this could be,
264
00:11:01,862 --> 00:11:03,592
- you know, situational.
- Yeah.
265
00:11:03,689 --> 00:11:05,929
- Forced together, making do.
- Yeah, just making whatever,
266
00:11:06,034 --> 00:11:07,624
but I don't know, you know?
267
00:11:07,724 --> 00:11:10,284
People are jealous of us,
268
00:11:10,379 --> 00:11:11,589
you know what I'm saying?
269
00:11:11,689 --> 00:11:13,279
People really hate on us.
270
00:11:13,379 --> 00:11:14,589
- You mean people in here
271
00:11:14,689 --> 00:11:15,829
- can be close-minded?
- Absolutely.
272
00:11:15,931 --> 00:11:17,341
- They judge you?
- Yeah, you know?
273
00:11:17,448 --> 00:11:18,898
That's not always it.
274
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,620
It's that usually... You know,
275
00:11:20,724 --> 00:11:22,834
somebody wants to get one
of the girls in their cell,
276
00:11:22,931 --> 00:11:24,101
or whatever.
277
00:11:24,206 --> 00:11:26,446
What it is, is, you know,
these guys are like...
278
00:11:26,551 --> 00:11:28,171
- They're starved
for companionship.
279
00:11:28,275 --> 00:11:29,335
- Yeah.
280
00:11:29,448 --> 00:11:30,618
- They get to have
a relationship
281
00:11:30,724 --> 00:11:32,344
and they get
to have a little house
282
00:11:32,448 --> 00:11:34,168
and go to work every day
283
00:11:34,275 --> 00:11:36,615
and come home every day,
you know?
284
00:11:36,724 --> 00:11:38,664
- I know you said, Rob,
that you'd like
285
00:11:38,758 --> 00:11:40,658
to continue the relationship
on the outside.
286
00:11:40,758 --> 00:11:43,448
- Do you feel the same way?
- Absolutely.
287
00:11:43,551 --> 00:11:46,281
I'm almost 40 years old.
288
00:11:46,379 --> 00:11:47,789
He's barely 30.
289
00:11:48,586 --> 00:11:49,996
So why not?
290
00:11:51,275 --> 00:11:52,965
No, he's a lot better
than that,
291
00:11:53,068 --> 00:11:54,788
it's a lot more than just that.
292
00:11:54,896 --> 00:11:56,656
I actually like this guy.
293
00:11:56,758 --> 00:11:59,138
[inmates shout in background]
294
00:11:59,241 --> 00:12:00,721
- Bye.
- Bye, guys.
295
00:12:01,896 --> 00:12:03,516
Bye.
[buzzer]
296
00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:10,070
Louis: Shortly after
the interview,
297
00:12:10,172 --> 00:12:11,342
Deborah was released.
298
00:12:13,068 --> 00:12:14,448
She kind of, to me,
299
00:12:14,551 --> 00:12:15,901
represented something
about San Quentin,
300
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,070
which was that very often things
301
00:12:18,172 --> 00:12:20,282
weren't quite
as you would expect.
302
00:12:20,379 --> 00:12:22,209
Nothing was quite as simple
as you might imagine
303
00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:23,520
that it would be.
304
00:12:23,620 --> 00:12:26,550
- We'll squeeze you in,
if need be!
305
00:12:26,655 --> 00:12:28,965
Louis: You expect brutality
in prison
306
00:12:29,068 --> 00:12:31,478
and violence and antagonism,
307
00:12:31,586 --> 00:12:33,896
so what becomes surprising
308
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,380
is when you see something else.
309
00:12:36,482 --> 00:12:41,282
It's not simply chaos,
mayhem, negativity.
310
00:12:42,896 --> 00:12:44,786
Do you feel you've got
a life in here?
311
00:12:44,896 --> 00:12:46,446
You can make your life
as comfortable
312
00:12:46,551 --> 00:12:48,551
as it can get in here,
313
00:12:48,655 --> 00:12:50,685
if you put your mind to it.
314
00:12:50,793 --> 00:12:53,413
The only thing that
you don't have in prison
315
00:12:53,517 --> 00:12:55,207
is freedom to an extent
316
00:12:55,310 --> 00:12:58,690
and no, you know, women,
as far as...
317
00:12:58,793 --> 00:13:01,313
But other than that,
that's just, you know,
318
00:13:01,413 --> 00:13:04,723
that's just little helps
in life, you know?
319
00:13:04,827 --> 00:13:07,307
But you can get over
all that, you know?
320
00:13:09,068 --> 00:13:10,448
- Shirt off.
321
00:13:10,551 --> 00:13:12,141
Louis: If you get
institutionalised,
322
00:13:12,241 --> 00:13:13,831
if you're habituated
323
00:13:13,931 --> 00:13:16,141
to a certain way of living,
324
00:13:16,241 --> 00:13:17,931
then that becomes more normal,
325
00:13:18,034 --> 00:13:19,764
or at least more known,
326
00:13:19,862 --> 00:13:22,102
than what you have
on the outside.
327
00:13:23,068 --> 00:13:24,718
- Obey the law now.
328
00:13:37,827 --> 00:13:41,547
- We made the film in 2007.
In 2008,
329
00:13:41,655 --> 00:13:44,475
so the following year
after I filmed,
330
00:13:44,586 --> 00:13:45,786
Deborah, I guess,
was back inside,
331
00:13:45,896 --> 00:13:47,166
and then released.
332
00:13:47,275 --> 00:13:49,715
"Today's a different day."
That's the little pull quote.
333
00:13:49,827 --> 00:13:52,097
"Deborah Lee Worledge
was released from jail.
334
00:13:52,206 --> 00:13:56,856
"She died of a drug overdose
on September 4, 2008."
335
00:13:56,965 --> 00:13:58,585
Two days later.
336
00:13:58,689 --> 00:14:00,549
"She is missed by many."
337
00:14:02,965 --> 00:14:04,855
She had a sort
of romantic notion
338
00:14:04,965 --> 00:14:06,685
of being an outlaw.
339
00:14:06,793 --> 00:14:08,933
She was the one
who said to me, you know,
340
00:14:09,034 --> 00:14:10,764
"It's just like in the movies,
341
00:14:10,862 --> 00:14:12,552
"there's cops
and there's robbers,
342
00:14:12,655 --> 00:14:14,275
"and we're the robbers."
343
00:14:14,379 --> 00:14:16,549
She seems to have
seen the streets
344
00:14:16,655 --> 00:14:19,615
as a more accepting place than,
345
00:14:19,724 --> 00:14:23,724
as it were, mainstream society.
346
00:14:26,103 --> 00:14:28,283
There's a kind of self-respect
347
00:14:28,379 --> 00:14:30,519
in aspects of the street code.
348
00:14:30,620 --> 00:14:32,170
It might seem sometimes
self-destructive,
349
00:14:32,275 --> 00:14:34,755
but in other ways
it's the best they can do
350
00:14:34,862 --> 00:14:36,382
in the situation they're in.
351
00:14:56,931 --> 00:14:59,031
Here's Philadelphia.
352
00:15:01,724 --> 00:15:04,864
These are just photos
from when we were out there
353
00:15:04,965 --> 00:15:06,515
that were taken
by our sound recordist,
354
00:15:06,620 --> 00:15:07,930
Freddie Claire.
355
00:15:08,034 --> 00:15:10,764
We had to wear flak jackets,
356
00:15:10,862 --> 00:15:13,762
which looked
completely ludicrous.
357
00:15:15,034 --> 00:15:16,624
I mean,
the houses themselves,
358
00:15:16,724 --> 00:15:19,934
it's just abandoned,
boarded-up, derelict.
359
00:15:20,034 --> 00:15:22,004
That gives you a little flavour.
360
00:15:23,413 --> 00:15:25,383
San Quentin was
the first story I'd done
361
00:15:25,482 --> 00:15:28,862
that was squarely
in the world of crime.
362
00:15:28,965 --> 00:15:31,275
So, naturally,
our minds as a production
363
00:15:31,379 --> 00:15:32,619
went to the world
364
00:15:32,724 --> 00:15:35,624
of crime as it exists
out on the streets.
365
00:15:37,448 --> 00:15:38,518
So we got access
366
00:15:38,620 --> 00:15:40,550
to the Philadelphia
Police Department.
367
00:15:41,586 --> 00:15:43,446
26 and Silver, guy with a gun.
368
00:15:44,551 --> 00:15:46,001
A guy with a gun?
369
00:15:46,103 --> 00:15:47,693
[tyres screech]
370
00:15:47,793 --> 00:15:48,903
[radio chatter]
371
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,070
[sirens wail]
372
00:15:52,862 --> 00:15:55,072
I got him. I got him.
373
00:15:55,172 --> 00:15:56,762
- There he is, there he is,
right there.
374
00:15:56,862 --> 00:15:58,552
Right there, right there.
Go, go.
375
00:15:58,655 --> 00:16:00,305
[sirens chirp]
- Close the door.
376
00:16:00,413 --> 00:16:03,003
Hey! Yo, yo.
377
00:16:03,103 --> 00:16:05,173
He's running. He's got
the gun in his waistband.
378
00:16:06,896 --> 00:16:09,406
[indistinct radio chatter]
379
00:16:14,931 --> 00:16:16,551
Over, get over,
got over, get over!
380
00:16:16,655 --> 00:16:17,855
Turn over!
381
00:16:17,965 --> 00:16:19,135
[man cries out]
382
00:16:20,482 --> 00:16:22,072
[siren wails]
Turn over.
383
00:16:25,068 --> 00:16:27,278
Could have got your fucking self
shot to death,
384
00:16:27,379 --> 00:16:28,759
what's your problem?
385
00:16:28,862 --> 00:16:31,072
Stand up. Stand up.
386
00:16:34,241 --> 00:16:36,281
Louis: What is it?
- .42 calibre.
387
00:16:36,379 --> 00:16:38,339
- Why did you have that?
- Have what?
388
00:16:38,448 --> 00:16:40,968
- That gun.
- I don't have no gun.
389
00:16:41,068 --> 00:16:42,688
- This one.
- Huh?
390
00:16:42,793 --> 00:16:44,003
This one.
391
00:16:44,103 --> 00:16:45,173
- The one
that we took out your pocket.
392
00:16:45,275 --> 00:16:46,615
- The one you were trying
to pull out of your pocket.
393
00:16:46,724 --> 00:16:48,004
They have it on film, dude!
394
00:16:50,931 --> 00:16:52,281
Police radio: Do you have
that contact
395
00:16:52,379 --> 00:16:53,339
with whoever's following?
396
00:16:53,448 --> 00:16:56,718
Louis: North Philadelphia -
the area's called Kensington -
397
00:16:56,827 --> 00:16:59,137
is quite a place,
you know, visually.
398
00:16:59,241 --> 00:17:01,621
You've got block after block
in which houses
399
00:17:01,724 --> 00:17:04,764
were being used for either
drug dealing or drug taking.
400
00:17:08,344 --> 00:17:11,384
I mean, there's areas
all over the world like this.
401
00:17:11,482 --> 00:17:14,412
But this one was...
it was unlike anything
402
00:17:14,517 --> 00:17:16,137
I'd really seen before,
403
00:17:16,241 --> 00:17:18,661
in terms of the extent of it.
404
00:17:21,172 --> 00:17:23,032
The police unit
I was embedded with
405
00:17:23,137 --> 00:17:25,857
was known for
its aggressive tactics.
406
00:17:25,965 --> 00:17:27,515
Don't "come on" shit.
Is there open bottles of beer
407
00:17:27,620 --> 00:17:29,480
and are you smoking weed
in the car? Yes or no?
408
00:17:31,379 --> 00:17:32,589
[indistinct]
409
00:17:34,241 --> 00:17:35,761
- Yo, bro. Yo, bro.
410
00:17:35,862 --> 00:17:37,622
Relax yourself. What is it...?
411
00:17:37,724 --> 00:17:38,904
- I'm asking you a question,
412
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,720
do you belong right here
on this porch?
413
00:17:40,827 --> 00:17:42,067
- Stay in the car,
stay in the car.
414
00:17:42,172 --> 00:17:43,932
Louis: What becomes clear,
415
00:17:44,034 --> 00:17:46,384
this dilemma the police faced,
416
00:17:46,482 --> 00:17:49,242
which was they wanted
to arrest the drug dealers,
417
00:17:49,344 --> 00:17:51,414
but that to them meant
running the risk of making
418
00:17:51,517 --> 00:17:53,587
enemies of other citizens
419
00:17:53,689 --> 00:17:55,589
who had nothing
to do with drugs.
420
00:17:55,689 --> 00:17:56,619
[siren wails]
421
00:17:56,724 --> 00:17:57,834
- Did you lose anything
up there?
422
00:17:57,931 --> 00:17:59,411
- Where?
423
00:17:59,517 --> 00:18:01,547
- Be quiet and don't move.
- Oh, my God, my mom.
424
00:18:01,655 --> 00:18:03,375
- Relax, your mom ain't here.
How old are you?
425
00:18:03,482 --> 00:18:04,832
- 19.
- 19?
426
00:18:04,931 --> 00:18:06,341
- Roll over on your stomach,
towards me.
427
00:18:06,448 --> 00:18:08,028
- I chased him before!
- Put your hand straight out.
428
00:18:08,137 --> 00:18:09,027
Why did you run?
429
00:18:09,137 --> 00:18:10,827
- Because, around here,
430
00:18:10,931 --> 00:18:12,481
they have random
drive-by shootings.
431
00:18:12,586 --> 00:18:13,966
- Why would
they shoot you, though?
432
00:18:14,068 --> 00:18:15,278
They shoot anybody.
433
00:18:15,379 --> 00:18:16,969
They don't care who it is.
434
00:18:17,068 --> 00:18:18,658
Point-blank range,
they'll pull the gun out
435
00:18:18,758 --> 00:18:19,858
and shoot you.
436
00:18:19,965 --> 00:18:21,235
And don't nobody care.
437
00:18:21,344 --> 00:18:22,794
Don't nobody care
how old you are,
438
00:18:22,896 --> 00:18:24,406
don't nobody give a fuck
about you.
439
00:18:26,241 --> 00:18:28,691
Louis: And behind everything,
in the background,
440
00:18:28,793 --> 00:18:31,903
we increasingly became aware
as we filmed,
441
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,970
was this figure Reds,
442
00:18:34,068 --> 00:18:35,858
the drug lord.
443
00:18:38,206 --> 00:18:42,306
Then, by chance, we were called
to the scene of an incident.
444
00:18:42,413 --> 00:18:44,973
It turned out Reds was involved.
445
00:18:45,068 --> 00:18:46,828
We just ran up
and started filming.
446
00:18:46,931 --> 00:18:49,071
- Everybody back.
Everybody back.
447
00:18:49,172 --> 00:18:52,002
- As it turned out,
he was high on PCP
448
00:18:52,103 --> 00:18:54,003
and he seemed quite tickled
449
00:18:54,103 --> 00:18:57,213
by the presence of the camera
and me talking to him.
450
00:18:57,310 --> 00:18:59,210
Louis: So what was it over,
do you know?
451
00:18:59,310 --> 00:19:00,690
- Over a girl fight!
- Why?
452
00:19:00,793 --> 00:19:03,693
'Cause they...
I don't know, man!
453
00:19:03,793 --> 00:19:06,313
I don't know,
they fighting over girls.
454
00:19:06,413 --> 00:19:08,343
Girl situation.
455
00:19:09,241 --> 00:19:12,001
What y'all locking me up for?
456
00:19:12,103 --> 00:19:15,383
Yo! Y'all is playin' games!
457
00:19:15,482 --> 00:19:17,762
- [giggles] You playin' games.
- Not at all, come on.
458
00:19:17,862 --> 00:19:19,862
- Why you playin' games?
- Not at all, Reds.
459
00:19:19,965 --> 00:19:21,275
Why y'all playin' games?
460
00:19:21,379 --> 00:19:23,099
- We're not playing games.
- Yo!
461
00:19:23,206 --> 00:19:25,656
[speaks Spanish]
462
00:19:25,758 --> 00:19:27,588
Have a seat. Have a seat.
463
00:19:27,689 --> 00:19:29,659
Come on, have a seat.
Have a seat.
464
00:19:30,965 --> 00:19:32,405
What's the location
on the medic?
465
00:19:33,758 --> 00:19:35,758
So then a few days go by.
466
00:19:35,862 --> 00:19:39,172
We had this weird
introductory scene with Reds.
467
00:19:39,275 --> 00:19:42,475
I'm conscious
that we need to follow up.
468
00:19:42,586 --> 00:19:45,686
I should really try
and talk to him again.
469
00:19:45,793 --> 00:19:49,553
How do you make an appointment
with a drug lord?
470
00:19:51,310 --> 00:19:54,030
And there he was on his corner,
471
00:19:54,137 --> 00:19:58,237
and so I jumped out of the car
and started talking.
472
00:20:00,034 --> 00:20:01,284
What's the story with
your chain,
473
00:20:01,379 --> 00:20:03,589
are those real diamonds?
474
00:20:04,724 --> 00:20:06,694
[laughter]
475
00:20:06,793 --> 00:20:08,173
- Yes.
- Are they?
476
00:20:08,275 --> 00:20:10,095
How much for something
like that?
477
00:20:10,206 --> 00:20:13,066
- Probably 24.
- 24,000? Maybe a bit more?
478
00:20:13,172 --> 00:20:15,242
Maybe. Gold is higher now.
479
00:20:15,344 --> 00:20:18,074
If I asked one of those police
what you do, what would he say?
480
00:20:18,172 --> 00:20:19,762
That, that I'm a...
481
00:20:19,862 --> 00:20:21,622
That...whatever.
482
00:20:21,724 --> 00:20:24,174
I don't know.
They got their own opinion.
483
00:20:24,275 --> 00:20:26,855
They'd say that you're
a big-time drug dealer.
484
00:20:26,965 --> 00:20:29,615
I'm not man, for real, man.
485
00:20:29,724 --> 00:20:30,834
Look...
486
00:20:30,931 --> 00:20:32,931
Look, I pay rent.
487
00:20:35,241 --> 00:20:37,031
Have you ever shot anyone?
488
00:20:37,137 --> 00:20:40,067
No, no, I never shot nobody.
489
00:20:40,172 --> 00:20:43,592
You know what I mean?
I never shot nobody.
490
00:20:43,689 --> 00:20:45,859
Did you ever hurt anyone
physically?
491
00:20:45,965 --> 00:20:48,305
Oh, always, yeah.
492
00:20:48,413 --> 00:20:50,523
Yeah, we always beat people up.
493
00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:53,410
I'm not gonna lie to you.
We always fight.
494
00:20:53,517 --> 00:20:56,447
But family problems, you know?
495
00:20:56,551 --> 00:21:00,001
Sometimes you do what you got
to do to survive, man.
496
00:21:00,103 --> 00:21:03,623
You think it's good to have
someone who's...who controls
497
00:21:03,724 --> 00:21:05,834
a bit of the area, so that
he can keep the peace a little?
498
00:21:05,931 --> 00:21:08,481
Yes, I think that play a part
in society.
499
00:21:08,586 --> 00:21:10,166
- Rather than have
smaller little factions...
500
00:21:10,275 --> 00:21:12,165
- Yeah.
- ..fighting each other...
501
00:21:12,275 --> 00:21:15,405
Exactly, 'cause then everybody
want to do whatever...
502
00:21:15,517 --> 00:21:17,447
anything anybody want to do.
503
00:21:17,551 --> 00:21:19,241
And that's when chaos come.
504
00:21:19,344 --> 00:21:22,314
Somebody got to have control
of something.
505
00:21:22,413 --> 00:21:26,553
Look, I'm about to leave
all of this shithole soon.
506
00:21:26,655 --> 00:21:29,445
There's going to be more
worser people than me,
507
00:21:29,551 --> 00:21:30,761
alright?
508
00:21:30,862 --> 00:21:33,412
And once... Whatever they say,
509
00:21:33,517 --> 00:21:35,757
there's gonna be worser people
510
00:21:35,862 --> 00:21:37,552
and there's gonna be
more problems.
511
00:21:37,655 --> 00:21:39,025
- Out here?
- Yeah.
512
00:21:41,482 --> 00:21:43,622
Louis: Philadelphia
was my first exposure
513
00:21:43,724 --> 00:21:45,974
to a community dominated
514
00:21:46,068 --> 00:21:48,588
by a drugs industry in which
the local population
515
00:21:48,689 --> 00:21:52,279
were held hostage,
in a way, by the dealers
516
00:21:52,379 --> 00:21:54,859
and at loggerheads
with the police.
517
00:21:54,965 --> 00:21:56,825
I'm not doing nothing.
518
00:21:56,931 --> 00:21:58,411
- You are being disorderly.
519
00:21:58,517 --> 00:22:01,097
- This is what we go through
every day.
520
00:22:01,206 --> 00:22:02,476
- Every day.
- Fuckin' cops.
521
00:22:02,586 --> 00:22:03,896
Shit is out of control.
522
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,830
Somebody called about you.
523
00:22:05,931 --> 00:22:07,141
They gave your description,
524
00:22:07,241 --> 00:22:10,031
your shirt, your pants,
your shoes.
525
00:22:10,137 --> 00:22:11,547
They said...
Now, I can go radio it
526
00:22:11,655 --> 00:22:13,375
and let you hear it again.
527
00:22:13,482 --> 00:22:14,862
Yes, we did get a gun.
Show him the gun.
528
00:22:14,965 --> 00:22:16,515
We got the gun.
529
00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:18,070
Alright?
[onlookers protest]
530
00:22:18,172 --> 00:22:20,592
The problem was
they called about him,
531
00:22:20,689 --> 00:22:22,239
his boy had the gun, alright?
532
00:22:22,344 --> 00:22:24,454
So, are we wrong?
533
00:22:24,551 --> 00:22:26,451
Y'all jumped out on me
the other day.
534
00:22:26,551 --> 00:22:28,071
- I didn't jump out on you.
535
00:22:28,172 --> 00:22:29,662
No, I'm not saying y'all,
you know,
536
00:22:29,758 --> 00:22:31,478
but I'm saying the police
jumped out on me,
537
00:22:31,586 --> 00:22:32,656
slapped me onto the grill.
538
00:22:32,758 --> 00:22:33,968
I ain't got nothing on me.
539
00:22:34,068 --> 00:22:35,478
They going to ask me,
"What you doing out here?
540
00:22:35,586 --> 00:22:37,306
"You smoking crack?"
I don't smoke crack!
541
00:22:37,413 --> 00:22:39,413
I work every day, you know?
542
00:22:39,517 --> 00:22:42,687
But y'all got me gripped up,
got all these gripped up.
543
00:22:42,793 --> 00:22:44,173
And then it's a big problem.
544
00:22:44,275 --> 00:22:46,235
[overlapping shouts]
545
00:22:46,344 --> 00:22:47,694
Come on now.
546
00:22:49,724 --> 00:22:52,244
- Them handcuffs too tight!
- Stop moving your arms.
547
00:22:52,344 --> 00:22:53,864
- Handcuffs too tight.
- The more you move,
548
00:22:53,965 --> 00:22:55,965
the tighter
they're gonna get, alright?
549
00:22:56,068 --> 00:22:57,068
Louis: So it's one thing
550
00:22:57,172 --> 00:22:59,722
for those involved in the drugs
trade to resent the police,
551
00:22:59,827 --> 00:23:02,067
but I could also see that
members of the general public
552
00:23:02,172 --> 00:23:03,972
had grown angry
at what they viewed
553
00:23:04,068 --> 00:23:05,788
as police harassment.
554
00:23:19,379 --> 00:23:21,239
Reds was a pretty big fish.
555
00:23:21,344 --> 00:23:24,284
It seemed to me that police
somewhat tolerated him.
556
00:23:24,379 --> 00:23:26,899
In fact, it later turned out
they were tolerating Reds
557
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,070
because they were building
a case against him and...
558
00:23:31,172 --> 00:23:34,212
..waiting for their moment
to pick him up.
559
00:23:36,551 --> 00:23:38,341
So four years later, in 2012,
560
00:23:38,448 --> 00:23:40,658
I get an e-mail
to my website, saying,
561
00:23:40,758 --> 00:23:43,548
"I am a Philadelphia
police officer
562
00:23:43,655 --> 00:23:45,995
@assigned to an FBI task force.
563
00:23:46,103 --> 00:23:49,103
"I thought you would like to
know we did a wiretap on Reds
564
00:23:49,206 --> 00:23:51,786
"and 12 members
of his organisation.
565
00:23:51,896 --> 00:23:55,826
"They are now serving life
sentences in federal prison."
566
00:23:55,931 --> 00:23:58,141
Undoubtedly, Reds was
part of the problem,
567
00:23:58,241 --> 00:24:00,481
but it was so much
bigger than just him.
568
00:24:00,586 --> 00:24:02,446
You know,
it was an area in which
569
00:24:02,551 --> 00:24:04,971
there was a kind of
social collapse.
570
00:24:05,068 --> 00:24:09,068
No opportunity,
ravaged by poverty,
571
00:24:09,172 --> 00:24:11,552
and a complete breakdown
in trust
572
00:24:11,655 --> 00:24:14,855
between the community
and the police.
573
00:24:26,034 --> 00:24:27,864
It's in the nature of policing,
574
00:24:27,965 --> 00:24:29,855
and criminal justice generally,
575
00:24:29,965 --> 00:24:31,615
that it's a blunt instrument.
576
00:24:31,724 --> 00:24:33,834
And in the name
of keeping people safe,
577
00:24:33,931 --> 00:24:35,901
they sometimes
play probabilities,
578
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,720
they sometimes pick up
the wrong people.
579
00:24:38,827 --> 00:24:41,337
And in other cases, they get
creative with the law
580
00:24:41,448 --> 00:24:43,208
in order to lock people up.
581
00:24:45,655 --> 00:24:47,515
In 2006,
I was reading an article
582
00:24:47,620 --> 00:24:49,280
in the 'New York Times' online
583
00:24:49,379 --> 00:24:51,759
about a new policy to do with
how America deals
584
00:24:51,862 --> 00:24:54,622
with serious
ingrained sex offenders,
585
00:24:54,724 --> 00:24:58,214
involving legislation that
even then was controversial.
586
00:24:58,310 --> 00:25:00,410
The Supreme Court
is now considering
587
00:25:00,517 --> 00:25:02,477
whether to keep hardcore
child molesters
588
00:25:02,586 --> 00:25:04,206
locked up indefinitely,
589
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:07,480
even after
their sentences are up.
590
00:25:07,586 --> 00:25:09,066
Louis: So we looked into it
591
00:25:09,172 --> 00:25:10,972
and there was
a whole new facility
592
00:25:11,068 --> 00:25:14,068
that had just been constructed
in Coalinga,
593
00:25:14,172 --> 00:25:17,172
one of the biggest
civil commitment facilities
594
00:25:17,275 --> 00:25:19,205
for sex offenders
and paedophiles
595
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:21,310
anywhere in the world.
596
00:25:26,724 --> 00:25:29,694
You might ask,
well, why was I interested?
597
00:25:29,793 --> 00:25:31,833
Why would I want to go
and talk to people
598
00:25:31,931 --> 00:25:34,901
who've raped
and molested children?
599
00:25:36,551 --> 00:25:38,551
I've always had a kind
of ghastly fascination
600
00:25:38,655 --> 00:25:40,205
with the extremes
601
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:44,170
at the far end of
any conventional morality.
602
00:25:45,413 --> 00:25:46,663
I admit there's something in me
603
00:25:46,758 --> 00:25:49,238
that kind of finds that both
incomprehensible and,
604
00:25:49,344 --> 00:25:53,004
at the same time,
maybe for that reason...
605
00:25:55,448 --> 00:25:57,828
..interesting.
606
00:25:57,931 --> 00:26:01,551
- OK. And what are you...
what are you in for?
607
00:26:01,655 --> 00:26:03,375
What are you...
what are you doing here?
608
00:26:03,482 --> 00:26:06,212
You mean, what's my...
my incarceration, erm...
609
00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:07,590
the reason for incarceration?
610
00:26:07,689 --> 00:26:09,689
- I'm a child molester.
- Really?
611
00:26:09,793 --> 00:26:11,143
And I never thought for a second
612
00:26:11,241 --> 00:26:13,481
that these little kids
were actually people.
613
00:26:13,586 --> 00:26:14,926
They are little people.
614
00:26:15,827 --> 00:26:18,167
- For one thing, I'm reducing
615
00:26:18,275 --> 00:26:22,965
the sexual content of
any materials that I produce.
616
00:26:23,068 --> 00:26:24,688
I'm also masturbating less
617
00:26:24,793 --> 00:26:27,383
and I'm working on
trying to extend that period.
618
00:26:29,275 --> 00:26:30,615
Louis: So it's a hospital
619
00:26:30,724 --> 00:26:34,104
and it cost $400 million
to build.
620
00:26:34,206 --> 00:26:36,166
And, as a result,
it's rather nice.
621
00:26:36,275 --> 00:26:38,965
The people there are there
to get treatment.
622
00:26:39,068 --> 00:26:41,028
They're not there
to be punished.
623
00:26:41,137 --> 00:26:42,687
And they're kept there
624
00:26:42,793 --> 00:26:45,903
until the psychiatric
establishment says,
625
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,450
"OK, you're ready now,
you can go."
626
00:26:49,896 --> 00:26:51,716
- What does PPG stand for?
627
00:26:51,827 --> 00:26:54,857
It stands for a penile
plethysmograph assessment.
628
00:26:54,965 --> 00:26:56,895
It's a phallometric assessment.
629
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,100
- Basically, measuring
the penis size...
630
00:26:59,206 --> 00:27:00,166
- Correct.
631
00:27:00,275 --> 00:27:02,205
..in terms of how aroused
a man is?
632
00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:03,860
- Correct. So the individual
633
00:27:03,965 --> 00:27:06,335
places this gauge
on the shaft of the penis.
634
00:27:06,448 --> 00:27:09,618
- Feel it. You can feel it.
- Like that?
635
00:27:10,689 --> 00:27:12,929
So we started by filming...
636
00:27:14,758 --> 00:27:17,378
..the sort of 'model patients',
the model citizens.
637
00:27:18,827 --> 00:27:20,137
- Louis.
- How you doing, Mr Rigby?
638
00:27:20,241 --> 00:27:21,551
Fine, sir.
639
00:27:21,655 --> 00:27:24,655
- Mr Rigby had been a PE teacher
640
00:27:24,758 --> 00:27:27,338
at a school
in Southern California
641
00:27:27,448 --> 00:27:30,278
and convicted
in a high-profile case.
642
00:27:30,379 --> 00:27:32,409
And obviously,
for the clinical staff,
643
00:27:32,517 --> 00:27:36,857
he represented what they hoped
would be a success story.
644
00:27:36,965 --> 00:27:38,965
- Joe, are you Mr Rigby's
social worker?
645
00:27:39,068 --> 00:27:40,028
- Yes.
- How do you feel
646
00:27:40,137 --> 00:27:41,827
it's been going with Mr Rigby?
647
00:27:41,931 --> 00:27:44,591
- Excellent.
He's doing quite well.
648
00:27:44,689 --> 00:27:46,999
He does everything
that's asked of him
649
00:27:47,103 --> 00:27:51,033
and he's a...a... He's just...
650
00:27:51,137 --> 00:27:53,277
You can't have a better client.
651
00:27:53,379 --> 00:27:56,929
Any challenge,
he's up to face it.
652
00:27:57,034 --> 00:27:59,034
This is your room, Mr Rigby?
653
00:27:59,137 --> 00:28:00,277
- This is our dorm.
654
00:28:00,379 --> 00:28:03,339
There are four men
that share the dorm.
655
00:28:03,448 --> 00:28:05,138
- There seems
to be an interest
656
00:28:05,241 --> 00:28:06,971
in the male physical form.
657
00:28:07,068 --> 00:28:09,788
- Yes. Yes.
658
00:28:09,896 --> 00:28:13,446
I'm an open gay, er,
homosexual man here.
659
00:28:13,551 --> 00:28:15,031
- This seems a little risqué.
660
00:28:15,137 --> 00:28:18,167
That's quite close to the,
erm, to the prohibited.
661
00:28:18,275 --> 00:28:20,305
- Well, I suppose
that has potential. Yes.
662
00:28:20,413 --> 00:28:22,073
- I don't look at them...
- Would that be...?
663
00:28:22,172 --> 00:28:23,312
- Say again.
664
00:28:23,413 --> 00:28:24,933
I don't look at them
as teenagers.
665
00:28:25,034 --> 00:28:27,454
I look at them as
basically ballet performers.
666
00:28:27,551 --> 00:28:29,521
They all look very mature to me.
667
00:28:29,620 --> 00:28:31,590
- Is that OK?
- Is that OK?
668
00:28:31,689 --> 00:28:35,139
Erm, yeah. As long as
they're of age, that's OK.
669
00:28:35,241 --> 00:28:37,171
- One of the things I was
reading in your file
670
00:28:37,275 --> 00:28:39,065
was that you'd started
something,
671
00:28:39,172 --> 00:28:41,102
or there had been something,
called The Togas?
672
00:28:41,206 --> 00:28:42,096
- Right.
673
00:28:42,206 --> 00:28:45,166
The club was on the basis
of an athletic club.
674
00:28:45,275 --> 00:28:46,755
The problem with it,
675
00:28:46,862 --> 00:28:48,552
it ended up
with a sexual initiation.
676
00:28:48,655 --> 00:28:50,375
And these boys, aged...?
677
00:28:50,482 --> 00:28:51,792
Those boys were aged primarily
678
00:28:51,896 --> 00:28:53,856
- 11 and 12 years of age.
- 11 to 12.
679
00:28:53,965 --> 00:28:55,655
And what was the initiation?
680
00:28:55,758 --> 00:28:57,688
It was sticking
their penis in a tube.
681
00:28:57,793 --> 00:28:59,483
How will you guard against that
682
00:28:59,586 --> 00:29:01,306
creeping back into
your thinking?
683
00:29:01,413 --> 00:29:03,623
By guarding my environment.
684
00:29:03,724 --> 00:29:06,484
By understanding, again,
our high risk.
685
00:29:06,586 --> 00:29:07,896
And, of course,
my number-one high risk
686
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,170
is being around children,
687
00:29:09,275 --> 00:29:11,025
and I can respect that.
688
00:29:12,275 --> 00:29:13,715
I don't probably expect society
689
00:29:13,827 --> 00:29:15,617
to accept me in the long run,
690
00:29:15,724 --> 00:29:18,594
but I'd like to show them
I can be a better citizen.
691
00:29:21,241 --> 00:29:23,901
- We'd been invited by
the clinical regime, obviously,
692
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,410
not by the guys there.
693
00:29:26,517 --> 00:29:28,997
They were interested
in showing us the people
694
00:29:29,103 --> 00:29:31,663
who were involved in treatment.
695
00:29:31,758 --> 00:29:33,688
And it was only
after I got there
696
00:29:33,793 --> 00:29:36,143
that I realised
that around 70% of them
697
00:29:36,241 --> 00:29:37,521
were not in treatment,
698
00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:39,210
because they were refusing
to do it.
699
00:29:40,896 --> 00:29:43,206
There were little murmurings
of people saying,
700
00:29:43,310 --> 00:29:45,000
"Hey, what's this crew doing
701
00:29:45,103 --> 00:29:47,723
"telling this story about
everything's great here
702
00:29:47,827 --> 00:29:49,517
"and this is a great hospital,
703
00:29:49,620 --> 00:29:51,380
"whereas, in fact,
most of us are here
704
00:29:51,482 --> 00:29:53,622
"feeling that we did
our time in prison
705
00:29:53,724 --> 00:29:56,244
"and, just when we thought
we were going to be released,"
706
00:29:56,344 --> 00:29:58,664
after 20 years or whatever
it is, they were like,
707
00:29:58,758 --> 00:30:00,828
"You know what? We're gonna
lock you up again.
708
00:30:00,931 --> 00:30:02,281
"And this time,
we're not gonna tell you
709
00:30:02,379 --> 00:30:03,689
"when you get out.
710
00:30:03,793 --> 00:30:05,313
"But it's a hospital,
so it's all legal."
711
00:30:07,068 --> 00:30:08,308
How do you like it in here?
712
00:30:09,758 --> 00:30:11,138
I don't like it here at all.
713
00:30:11,241 --> 00:30:13,691
The most corrupt programme, OK,
714
00:30:13,793 --> 00:30:15,523
that I've ever seen
in my life, OK?
715
00:30:15,620 --> 00:30:19,100
The Phase programme
is nothing more than a sham
716
00:30:19,206 --> 00:30:21,756
that's here to hold us
indefinitely.
717
00:30:21,862 --> 00:30:22,902
This is nothing but a warehouse.
718
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,280
Look at the big money they get.
719
00:30:24,379 --> 00:30:27,279
They get $200,000 a year
for keeping us in here.
720
00:30:31,931 --> 00:30:34,381
Men sing: ♪ They're creepy
and they're kooky... ♪
721
00:30:34,482 --> 00:30:36,032
Louis: It's kind of
extraordinary,
722
00:30:36,137 --> 00:30:37,167
when you think about it.
723
00:30:37,275 --> 00:30:41,615
$200,000 per person
who stays there.
724
00:30:41,724 --> 00:30:45,314
1,200 people there. 1,200 beds.
725
00:30:45,413 --> 00:30:49,143
That's more than $200 million
a year.
726
00:30:49,241 --> 00:30:51,001
The numbers are staggering.
727
00:30:54,448 --> 00:30:55,658
Afterwards, I would think,
728
00:30:55,758 --> 00:30:57,688
"I wonder what's going on
with those guys."
729
00:30:57,793 --> 00:31:01,003
You know, as is often the case,
I kept tabs on the story.
730
00:31:01,103 --> 00:31:05,033
So earlier this year,
I wrote to Mr Rigby.
731
00:31:05,137 --> 00:31:07,517
Hang on. There it is.
732
00:31:09,172 --> 00:31:12,762
This is from Mr Rigby.
37918068.
733
00:31:12,862 --> 00:31:15,592
Federal Correctional
Institution.
734
00:31:15,689 --> 00:31:17,449
Ashland, Kentucky.
735
00:31:17,551 --> 00:31:18,931
Uh-oh!
736
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,830
"Dear Mr Theroux,
thank you for your inquiry.
737
00:31:22,931 --> 00:31:24,551
"Yes, I do remember you.
738
00:31:24,655 --> 00:31:26,755
"I did finally escape the claws
739
00:31:26,862 --> 00:31:29,002
"of civil confinement in 2014,
740
00:31:29,103 --> 00:31:33,483
"being the 14th graduate
in their 16-year history.
741
00:31:33,586 --> 00:31:35,306
"You asked about
my current situation.
742
00:31:35,413 --> 00:31:37,793
"I pled guilty to one count
of possession
743
00:31:37,896 --> 00:31:39,786
"of illegal material.
744
00:31:39,896 --> 00:31:42,826
"I never thought I'd find myself
in custody again."
745
00:31:42,931 --> 00:31:45,971
He was given 13 years
in federal prison.
746
00:31:47,793 --> 00:31:50,313
"I'd say that 80% of the men
at Coalinga now accept
747
00:31:50,413 --> 00:31:52,693
"this institution
as their retirement home."
748
00:31:54,655 --> 00:31:56,615
As a place, as a hospital
749
00:31:56,724 --> 00:31:59,934
where people are being made
fit for release,
750
00:32:00,034 --> 00:32:04,174
clearly it isn't working
particularly well.
751
00:32:04,275 --> 00:32:05,375
Like, it's highly inefficient.
752
00:32:05,482 --> 00:32:06,622
We could put it that way.
753
00:32:06,724 --> 00:32:08,834
So few people are coming through
754
00:32:08,931 --> 00:32:11,281
and so few are making it
on the outside.
755
00:32:11,379 --> 00:32:14,239
That being said, I think perhaps
756
00:32:14,344 --> 00:32:17,484
it's pretty obvious that
the real reason Coalinga exists
757
00:32:17,586 --> 00:32:19,716
is to make
the public feel safe.
758
00:32:23,379 --> 00:32:24,829
So it's a kind of monument
759
00:32:24,931 --> 00:32:26,691
to the public's fear
of sex offenders.
760
00:32:26,793 --> 00:32:29,663
Very understandable fear.
And, in those terms,
761
00:32:29,758 --> 00:32:33,068
I guess you could argue
Coalinga works.
762
00:32:41,275 --> 00:32:45,375
The implicit social contract
in America is that
763
00:32:45,482 --> 00:32:51,032
"we will make you safe by
locking people up en masse".
764
00:32:51,137 --> 00:32:53,067
America has a prison population,
765
00:32:53,172 --> 00:32:55,102
a prison and jail population,
766
00:32:55,206 --> 00:32:57,546
of more than 2 million.
767
00:32:59,862 --> 00:33:01,242
So it was 2010,
768
00:33:01,344 --> 00:33:03,594
and the idea came up
of getting into a jail,
769
00:33:03,689 --> 00:33:07,209
a really big jail.
In the American context,
770
00:33:07,310 --> 00:33:09,660
a jail is different
from a prison.
771
00:33:09,758 --> 00:33:11,718
Many of the inmates
are there on remand.
772
00:33:11,827 --> 00:33:13,587
They're basically
awaiting trial
773
00:33:13,689 --> 00:33:15,069
and are technically innocent
774
00:33:15,172 --> 00:33:16,662
because they haven't
been convicted.
775
00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:19,930
And we found Miami jail.
776
00:33:20,034 --> 00:33:21,594
There were four or five
different buildings,
777
00:33:21,689 --> 00:33:24,449
but the building
known as 'main jail'
778
00:33:24,551 --> 00:33:27,621
housed many of
the most violent offenders.
779
00:33:27,724 --> 00:33:28,904
Louis: What did you do?
780
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,280
Oh, somebody broke
into my house,
781
00:33:30,379 --> 00:33:33,069
and when they broke
into my house, I shot him.
782
00:33:33,172 --> 00:33:34,622
He was trying
to rape my daughter.
783
00:33:34,724 --> 00:33:36,074
I blowed his head off.
784
00:33:38,275 --> 00:33:40,165
Louis: So you might think that,
785
00:33:40,275 --> 00:33:43,895
given that in a jail
people are technically innocent,
786
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,930
it would be a gentler,
more benign atmosphere.
787
00:33:48,034 --> 00:33:50,904
In fact, the reverse
seemed to be the case.
788
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,900
[men yell]
789
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,030
- Fighting is normal.
790
00:33:55,137 --> 00:33:57,027
I mean, stabbings are normal,
you know?
791
00:33:57,137 --> 00:33:59,477
- Oh, look, see? Shank.
792
00:33:59,586 --> 00:34:02,516
We find them all the time.
They stab.
793
00:34:02,620 --> 00:34:04,450
This is so that they
can have a good grip on it.
794
00:34:04,551 --> 00:34:06,931
Louis: The conditions
were to the point
795
00:34:07,034 --> 00:34:08,694
of being almost Darwinian.
796
00:34:08,793 --> 00:34:10,863
- How many guys did you
actually have to fight?
797
00:34:10,965 --> 00:34:13,755
About 12 of 'em. Yeah, 12...
798
00:34:13,862 --> 00:34:16,552
There was a 'survival
of the fittest' mentality.
799
00:34:16,655 --> 00:34:19,895
The strong survive
and the weak get preyed upon.
800
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,240
One thing I'm going
to leave on camera
801
00:34:21,344 --> 00:34:22,284
for y'all to remember,
802
00:34:22,379 --> 00:34:23,829
this verb right here - 'gabos'.
803
00:34:23,931 --> 00:34:26,661
The name of the game is gabos.
804
00:34:26,758 --> 00:34:29,588
'Game ain't based on sympathy'.
805
00:34:29,689 --> 00:34:31,619
If you got sympathy
in this spot,
806
00:34:31,724 --> 00:34:34,174
you ain't gonna never make it.
807
00:34:34,275 --> 00:34:35,895
- This is actually
my fourth day here.
808
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,520
It's not a nice place.
809
00:34:38,931 --> 00:34:41,411
It's awful. It's fucking awful.
810
00:34:41,517 --> 00:34:44,617
- Why?
- It's a fucking shithole.
811
00:34:45,931 --> 00:34:47,481
It's terrible.
812
00:34:49,379 --> 00:34:52,999
And now they're gonna put me
with 20 other crazy people.
813
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,310
And you can't do anything
about it.
814
00:34:57,413 --> 00:35:00,103
[chatter and clinking
in background]
815
00:35:02,103 --> 00:35:03,933
[exhales]
816
00:35:04,034 --> 00:35:05,344
- How many people
would he be sharing with?
817
00:35:05,448 --> 00:35:07,718
16 to 23 guys in one cell.
818
00:35:07,827 --> 00:35:09,027
Depends on the size
of the cell.
819
00:35:09,137 --> 00:35:11,757
And, with him, his size,
820
00:35:11,862 --> 00:35:13,382
ain't no telling
what's gonna happen
821
00:35:13,482 --> 00:35:14,832
once we close that door.
822
00:35:14,931 --> 00:35:17,791
[loud chatter]
823
00:35:20,172 --> 00:35:23,722
- Many of the inmates were there
for very heavy charges -
824
00:35:23,827 --> 00:35:25,337
murder was common -
825
00:35:25,448 --> 00:35:28,028
and were very ingrained
in a certain
826
00:35:28,137 --> 00:35:30,207
street code or street culture.
827
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:32,480
I had about 30-something
fights.
828
00:35:32,586 --> 00:35:36,786
Broke hand, teeth stuck,
swollen knuckles.
829
00:35:36,896 --> 00:35:38,786
If you want to eat,
you got to fight.
830
00:35:38,896 --> 00:35:40,616
You want to use the phone,
you got to fight.
831
00:35:40,724 --> 00:35:42,244
Louis: Going into the cells
is not something
832
00:35:42,344 --> 00:35:43,694
the guards like to do,
833
00:35:43,793 --> 00:35:45,833
and I can understand that,
834
00:35:45,931 --> 00:35:47,931
but I'm just the BBC journalist.
835
00:35:48,034 --> 00:35:50,284
You know, unless
they really hate Doctor Who
836
00:35:50,379 --> 00:35:52,069
for some reason,
837
00:35:52,172 --> 00:35:53,862
I don't think I'm...
838
00:35:53,965 --> 00:35:56,445
Like, I'm not involved
in their politics.
839
00:35:59,896 --> 00:36:01,786
So you go in the cell
and you're a little bit
840
00:36:01,896 --> 00:36:03,096
trying to read the room.
841
00:36:04,344 --> 00:36:07,484
- How are you doing?
How you doing, guys?
842
00:36:07,586 --> 00:36:10,026
Louis: And see who seems to be
more in charge,
843
00:36:10,137 --> 00:36:11,757
who's avoiding you,
844
00:36:11,862 --> 00:36:14,902
who's the likeliest person
to talk to.
845
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,240
I focused mainly
on Rodney Pearson,
846
00:36:18,344 --> 00:36:20,144
whose nickname was Hot Rod.
847
00:36:20,241 --> 00:36:21,791
- One thing that
came up last time
848
00:36:21,896 --> 00:36:23,306
was the idea of the paint
849
00:36:23,413 --> 00:36:25,723
as a kind of arena of battle
850
00:36:25,827 --> 00:36:27,517
in which the different inmates
851
00:36:27,620 --> 00:36:29,310
have to prove themselves.
852
00:36:29,413 --> 00:36:30,763
- You ain't got
to prove yourself,
853
00:36:30,862 --> 00:36:32,412
you got to get
through that reckoning
854
00:36:32,517 --> 00:36:33,547
and see where you at.
855
00:36:33,655 --> 00:36:34,855
"See where you at"?
What do you mean?
856
00:36:34,965 --> 00:36:36,235
- See where you at!
You might come here
857
00:36:36,344 --> 00:36:38,214
but you might be snitching
on somebody,
858
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:39,550
and you might tell something.
859
00:36:39,655 --> 00:36:40,965
We wanna know who you is,
that's all.
860
00:36:41,068 --> 00:36:42,208
How are you going
to tell by fighting?
861
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:43,620
- I could tell you
to get out there
862
00:36:43,724 --> 00:36:45,004
and you'd be scared to get out.
863
00:36:45,103 --> 00:36:46,903
That's one sign there's
something wrong with you.
864
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,930
- Well, you could be
an honest person
865
00:36:50,034 --> 00:36:51,104
and not want to fight.
866
00:36:51,206 --> 00:36:53,136
- Yeah, but you're going
to have to fight,
867
00:36:53,241 --> 00:36:54,791
or you gonna get out the door.
868
00:36:54,896 --> 00:36:56,236
- Why?
- Shit, that's the code!
869
00:36:56,344 --> 00:36:57,724
That's they rules.
870
00:36:57,827 --> 00:37:00,237
You got to ask the person
who made it.
871
00:37:00,344 --> 00:37:02,764
The code is the code.
I can't tell you the code.
872
00:37:02,862 --> 00:37:05,212
You got to know the code.
You feel me?
873
00:37:05,310 --> 00:37:07,210
You come here and you
come in the cell,
874
00:37:07,310 --> 00:37:08,590
you got to get lined up.
875
00:37:08,689 --> 00:37:10,409
- Are you seriously saying
that if I,
876
00:37:10,517 --> 00:37:12,517
by some quirk of fate,
877
00:37:12,620 --> 00:37:15,280
if I was sent into this cell,
you'd see me
878
00:37:15,379 --> 00:37:18,139
and presumably you would know
that I was not cut out to fight,
879
00:37:18,241 --> 00:37:19,691
and you're seriously saying...?
880
00:37:19,793 --> 00:37:21,453
- I ain't going to lie,
you might not fight,
881
00:37:21,551 --> 00:37:23,031
they might just slap
the shit out you.
882
00:37:23,137 --> 00:37:24,477
[laughter]
I'm just being real.
883
00:37:24,586 --> 00:37:25,826
Are you saying
I wouldn't have to fight?
884
00:37:25,931 --> 00:37:26,901
- Oh, you...
885
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,380
No, you going to have to fight!
886
00:37:28,482 --> 00:37:30,312
I'm saying the whole cell
might beat you.
887
00:37:30,413 --> 00:37:31,343
Why?
888
00:37:31,448 --> 00:37:32,898
- Shit! That's the code
they all know,
889
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,410
that's what I'm trying
to tell you.
890
00:37:34,517 --> 00:37:35,967
You going to have
to figure out why.
891
00:37:39,931 --> 00:37:43,661
We're entering the special
management unit at TGK.
892
00:37:43,758 --> 00:37:46,028
Usually it's high-profile cases.
893
00:37:46,137 --> 00:37:49,167
Anyone with serious cases,
serious behavioural issues,
894
00:37:49,275 --> 00:37:51,275
they're housed in here.
895
00:37:51,379 --> 00:37:52,929
Louis: High-profile inmates
were those
896
00:37:53,034 --> 00:37:56,624
who were either accused of
particularly notorious crimes,
897
00:37:56,724 --> 00:37:58,904
or they'd attacked staff
or other inmates,
898
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,310
and they were kept in
a separate area of the jail.
899
00:38:02,413 --> 00:38:05,243
Robert Shaw, how are you doing?
900
00:38:05,344 --> 00:38:07,214
Yours says "shank history".
901
00:38:08,206 --> 00:38:09,656
Can you explain that?
902
00:38:12,482 --> 00:38:14,452
Louis: He had a kind
of charismatic quality,
903
00:38:14,551 --> 00:38:15,791
a twinkle in his eye...
904
00:38:15,896 --> 00:38:17,376
- One step up to the door.
905
00:38:17,482 --> 00:38:19,692
- ..but the crimes
he was alleged to have done
906
00:38:19,793 --> 00:38:21,723
were some of the most serious
in there.
907
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,450
- How you doing?
- Alright.
908
00:38:24,551 --> 00:38:25,661
- Can we come in?
909
00:38:25,758 --> 00:38:27,928
- This is your place?
- Yeah.
910
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,310
You said they accused you
of murder,
911
00:38:30,413 --> 00:38:32,283
- is that right?
- Yeah. Triple murder.
912
00:38:32,379 --> 00:38:34,099
- Triple murder?
- Yeah.
913
00:38:34,206 --> 00:38:35,996
- One of my homeboys
just got killed.
914
00:38:36,103 --> 00:38:39,313
Baby was 15 months old
and they assassinated him.
915
00:38:39,413 --> 00:38:41,413
They say it was a retaliation,
so...
916
00:38:41,517 --> 00:38:44,547
- You said one of your friends
had a 15-month-old baby...
917
00:38:44,655 --> 00:38:45,615
- Yeah, and he was assassinated.
918
00:38:45,724 --> 00:38:46,934
..and he was shot and killed.
919
00:38:47,034 --> 00:38:48,344
He got executed.
920
00:38:48,448 --> 00:38:49,928
- Really? Why?
921
00:38:51,172 --> 00:38:52,592
It was a drug war.
922
00:38:52,689 --> 00:38:54,139
- Rivalry?
- Yeah.
923
00:38:54,241 --> 00:38:56,311
So the prosecution
contends that
924
00:38:56,413 --> 00:38:58,593
you and two accomplices went
925
00:38:58,689 --> 00:39:00,169
and executed three
of their boys?
926
00:39:00,275 --> 00:39:01,925
- Yeah.
927
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:05,970
- In what sort of circumstances?
928
00:39:06,068 --> 00:39:08,238
- Coming from court.
- Right there,
929
00:39:08,344 --> 00:39:09,624
in the plain...in plain day?
930
00:39:09,724 --> 00:39:10,794
Yeah.
931
00:39:10,896 --> 00:39:12,656
- Do they have a strong case
against you?
932
00:39:13,724 --> 00:39:15,554
I wasn't there, so I don't know.
933
00:39:15,655 --> 00:39:17,965
- Do they have witnesses?
- Yeah.
934
00:39:18,068 --> 00:39:19,828
They say I was the trigger man.
935
00:39:19,931 --> 00:39:21,831
- Do they?
- Yeah.
936
00:39:21,931 --> 00:39:24,451
- What do you say?
- I wasn't there.
937
00:39:24,551 --> 00:39:26,521
- Where were you?
- I was home.
938
00:39:26,620 --> 00:39:28,140
- Doing what?
- Sleep.
939
00:39:29,206 --> 00:39:30,546
- Sleep.
940
00:39:30,655 --> 00:39:31,925
How long could they give you?
941
00:39:32,034 --> 00:39:33,974
I'll face indefinitely.
942
00:39:39,655 --> 00:39:41,165
Louis: I sensed something
in Robert,
943
00:39:41,275 --> 00:39:44,965
maybe because he was facing
possible execution.
944
00:39:45,068 --> 00:39:48,588
A sense of perspective
on life inside the jail,
945
00:39:48,689 --> 00:39:50,519
and crime generally.
946
00:39:52,517 --> 00:39:55,337
- There's so many people in here
947
00:39:55,448 --> 00:39:56,588
who are accused of shooting
948
00:39:56,689 --> 00:39:58,339
and being involved
in a gangster lifestyle.
949
00:39:58,448 --> 00:39:59,618
- Yeah.
950
00:39:59,724 --> 00:40:02,074
Why is that so...?
Why is that going on so much?
951
00:40:02,172 --> 00:40:05,172
Me personally, it's just,
I've always been like a...
952
00:40:06,517 --> 00:40:08,927
..like a slimeball person.
953
00:40:09,034 --> 00:40:13,214
Like, I always be on some...
like being a snake.
954
00:40:13,310 --> 00:40:15,860
Because I was raised
in a motherfucking squat.
955
00:40:15,965 --> 00:40:19,585
Who I seen as my idols
and my mentors was snakes,
956
00:40:19,689 --> 00:40:21,859
and that's the only thing
I knew growing up.
957
00:40:21,965 --> 00:40:23,615
Me and you do something together
958
00:40:23,724 --> 00:40:25,104
and it's time
to bust out the money,
959
00:40:25,206 --> 00:40:27,166
if I don't cross you out
for your money,
960
00:40:27,275 --> 00:40:28,545
I feel like you're going
to do it to me.
961
00:40:28,655 --> 00:40:31,825
So it's like my mentors
was snakes.
962
00:40:31,931 --> 00:40:34,031
- What about your parents?
963
00:40:35,655 --> 00:40:39,545
My parents? My grandma...
I was raised by my grandma.
964
00:40:39,655 --> 00:40:42,995
You know, a grandma can't
restrict too much things you do.
965
00:40:43,103 --> 00:40:45,483
And my daddy wasn't around.
My daddy was a street guy.
966
00:40:45,586 --> 00:40:47,686
So any time he coming round,
967
00:40:47,793 --> 00:40:49,383
I'm looking at the same shit
I'm seeing from dudes
968
00:40:49,482 --> 00:40:50,692
I look up to.
969
00:40:50,793 --> 00:40:52,523
He come around
in a nice car and smoking.
970
00:40:52,620 --> 00:40:54,000
The only time he come around
971
00:40:54,103 --> 00:40:55,523
when I be done did
something wrong.
972
00:40:55,620 --> 00:40:57,480
They'd call and he'd chastise me
973
00:40:57,586 --> 00:41:01,166
and punch me in the face
or whatever, and break me off.
974
00:41:01,275 --> 00:41:04,965
Man, he gone, so I never see him
until they call him, saying,
975
00:41:05,068 --> 00:41:06,478
"You know what
that motherfucker done did?
976
00:41:06,586 --> 00:41:07,996
"Stole a car or some shit."
977
00:41:08,103 --> 00:41:09,693
And that's when he come around.
978
00:41:09,793 --> 00:41:14,723
So...I ain't never really
had no parents like that.
979
00:41:15,551 --> 00:41:17,101
No.
980
00:41:25,965 --> 00:41:28,785
Louis: Afterwards, Robert Shaw's
death penalty case was dropped,
981
00:41:28,896 --> 00:41:31,166
but he was convicted
on various other charges,
982
00:41:31,275 --> 00:41:34,275
and he's now doing life
at a prison in Florida.
983
00:41:36,448 --> 00:41:38,518
It was an extraordinary place.
984
00:41:38,620 --> 00:41:40,210
I mean, that was
what I sort of learned
985
00:41:40,310 --> 00:41:41,590
while I was there in a way.
986
00:41:41,689 --> 00:41:44,449
The bigger point, though,
was just the strangeness,
987
00:41:44,551 --> 00:41:46,861
that a place like
Miami Main Jail
988
00:41:46,965 --> 00:41:50,095
could exist
in 21st century America.
989
00:41:50,206 --> 00:41:53,166
It just seemed a colossal
failing of the system
990
00:41:53,275 --> 00:41:56,335
to adequately supervise
and provide for its inmates.
991
00:41:57,241 --> 00:41:58,831
But what also struck me
992
00:41:58,931 --> 00:42:00,861
was the waste
and the human cost
993
00:42:00,965 --> 00:42:04,405
of a lost generation
deprived of opportunity,
994
00:42:04,517 --> 00:42:06,997
subscribing to
a dangerous street code
995
00:42:07,103 --> 00:42:09,833
and living out
their lives in captivity.
996
00:42:09,931 --> 00:42:12,171
[thunder and rain]
997
00:42:17,827 --> 00:42:20,207
It's no secret that
the criminal justice system
998
00:42:20,310 --> 00:42:23,480
disproportionately affects
certain communities,
999
00:42:23,586 --> 00:42:26,306
and in particular
the Black community.
1000
00:42:26,965 --> 00:42:28,025
- Stop, police!
1001
00:42:28,137 --> 00:42:30,857
Louis: This is true in cities
across America,
1002
00:42:30,965 --> 00:42:33,545
but especially
in certain hot spots.
1003
00:42:33,655 --> 00:42:35,755
And one of these
is Milwaukee, Wisconsin,
1004
00:42:35,862 --> 00:42:37,722
a city in the north.
[woman cries]
1005
00:42:37,827 --> 00:42:41,897
Even in the American picture,
Milwaukee is next level.
1006
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,520
- Keep walking that way!
1007
00:42:43,620 --> 00:42:45,480
- Nobody cares!
Just get out of here!
1008
00:42:45,586 --> 00:42:47,966
- Get that thing closed!
1009
00:42:48,068 --> 00:42:51,238
- There was a gas leak with
a car that is smoking...
1010
00:42:51,344 --> 00:42:52,384
[kids laugh]
1011
00:42:52,482 --> 00:42:53,792
How old...?
[gunshot]
1012
00:42:53,896 --> 00:42:55,166
- Fuck! Why would you shoot
1013
00:42:55,275 --> 00:42:57,515
with all these
fucking people, man?
1014
00:42:57,620 --> 00:43:00,590
Louis: Parts of the city
are overflowing with guns.
1015
00:43:00,689 --> 00:43:02,309
- Because we live where we live,
1016
00:43:02,413 --> 00:43:04,553
she's always right here,
next to my bed.
1017
00:43:04,655 --> 00:43:06,375
This is what the police use.
1018
00:43:06,482 --> 00:43:08,862
- I'm just going
to point that that way.
1019
00:43:08,965 --> 00:43:11,165
Louis: Any disagreement
could lead to a fight
1020
00:43:11,275 --> 00:43:13,205
and the guns coming out,
1021
00:43:13,310 --> 00:43:14,830
and someone getting shot.
1022
00:43:14,931 --> 00:43:16,831
- Gunshot wound there.
1023
00:43:16,931 --> 00:43:18,411
Looks like they tried
to put some pressure
1024
00:43:18,517 --> 00:43:19,757
on the neck there.
1025
00:43:19,862 --> 00:43:21,902
That's potentially
ballistic damage.
1026
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,240
That's likely ballistic damage
as well.
1027
00:43:24,344 --> 00:43:26,524
[sirens wail]
1028
00:43:29,586 --> 00:43:31,826
- This was two years
after Ferguson,
1029
00:43:31,931 --> 00:43:35,141
where Michael Brown
was killed by the police,
1030
00:43:35,241 --> 00:43:37,591
and the birth of
the Black Lives Matter movement.
1031
00:43:38,862 --> 00:43:40,452
And then, two weeks
before we're due
1032
00:43:40,551 --> 00:43:42,901
to fly to Milwaukee,
1033
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,930
there's a police shooting
and killing of a young man
1034
00:43:45,034 --> 00:43:46,314
called Sylville Smith.
1035
00:43:46,413 --> 00:43:49,863
And there'd been
three nights of rioting.
1036
00:43:49,965 --> 00:43:51,335
- We're not supposed to do
anything at all,
1037
00:43:51,448 --> 00:43:52,968
we're just supposed
to sit there and take it.
1038
00:43:53,068 --> 00:43:54,588
Man, enough is enough, man.
1039
00:43:54,689 --> 00:43:56,339
For real. Enough is enough.
1040
00:43:56,448 --> 00:43:58,998
Louis: I'd seen a video of a man
who turned out to be
1041
00:43:59,103 --> 00:44:00,933
Sylville's brother, Sedan.
1042
00:44:02,448 --> 00:44:05,138
So we reached out to him.
1043
00:44:05,241 --> 00:44:06,861
- How are you doing?
- Louis.
1044
00:44:06,965 --> 00:44:08,165
- Are you Sedan?
- Yeah.
1045
00:44:08,275 --> 00:44:10,715
- Louis. How're you doing?
- I'm there.
1046
00:44:10,827 --> 00:44:11,927
- Tell me about
what we've got here.
1047
00:44:12,034 --> 00:44:13,794
Is this a T-shirt
with Sylville on it?
1048
00:44:13,896 --> 00:44:16,376
- This is one of the T-shirts
with my little brother on it.
1049
00:44:16,482 --> 00:44:20,342
It says,
"Rest Bro. We Got You 5ever".
1050
00:44:20,448 --> 00:44:21,968
People come every day
1051
00:44:22,068 --> 00:44:23,968
and put their own stuff
on here.
1052
00:44:24,068 --> 00:44:25,858
- What was the story?
What happened to Sylville?
1053
00:44:25,965 --> 00:44:28,965
- Basically, he was in a car
1054
00:44:29,068 --> 00:44:32,028
that was perceived
to be suspicious
1055
00:44:32,137 --> 00:44:33,657
- by the police...
- Mm-hm.
1056
00:44:33,758 --> 00:44:35,828
..which was their reason
for stopping the car.
1057
00:44:35,931 --> 00:44:39,521
He allegedly got out
the car and ran,
1058
00:44:39,620 --> 00:44:44,340
and the news said
he allegedly pointed a gun.
1059
00:44:44,448 --> 00:44:46,168
- Pulled a gun?
- Yeah.
1060
00:44:46,275 --> 00:44:48,335
But then, the autopsy report,
1061
00:44:48,448 --> 00:44:51,688
it shows he was shot
in the back of his arm,
1062
00:44:51,793 --> 00:44:53,623
fleeing,
1063
00:44:53,724 --> 00:44:55,974
and he was also shot
under his armpit,
1064
00:44:56,068 --> 00:44:58,858
- meaning his arms was up.
- Mm.
1065
00:45:00,103 --> 00:45:01,723
Given the narrative
you describe,
1066
00:45:01,827 --> 00:45:03,097
why do you think Sylville
1067
00:45:03,206 --> 00:45:04,516
wouldn't have dropped the gun?
1068
00:45:04,620 --> 00:45:05,930
- See, in that situation...
1069
00:45:06,034 --> 00:45:07,934
- And why did he run?
Is the other question.
1070
00:45:08,034 --> 00:45:11,104
In that situation,
being in situations
1071
00:45:11,206 --> 00:45:13,656
where you hear what
the police do to Black men
1072
00:45:13,758 --> 00:45:16,098
in the community and carrying
a gun, and having one,
1073
00:45:16,206 --> 00:45:18,586
the way he thought was fear.
1074
00:45:18,689 --> 00:45:20,519
So if I'm fearing something,
1075
00:45:20,620 --> 00:45:23,000
my first thing
is to get away from that.
1076
00:45:23,103 --> 00:45:24,933
The officer who shot
and killed Sylville
1077
00:45:25,034 --> 00:45:26,524
was himself African-American.
1078
00:45:26,620 --> 00:45:27,620
- Yes.
- Yes.
1079
00:45:27,724 --> 00:45:30,004
Now, you could argue
that it suggests that maybe
1080
00:45:30,103 --> 00:45:32,483
it wasn't at least
a racist act.
1081
00:45:32,586 --> 00:45:34,166
- No. No, no, no, no, no.
1082
00:45:34,275 --> 00:45:35,445
It turned...
1083
00:45:35,551 --> 00:45:37,861
We don't turn it into
what it's not, you feel me?
1084
00:45:37,965 --> 00:45:40,025
At the end of the day,
it's not a race war.
1085
00:45:40,137 --> 00:45:41,857
You see them police,
right here, right now?
1086
00:45:41,965 --> 00:45:44,515
It's them against us.
1087
00:45:44,620 --> 00:45:48,280
It's not a white-on-black,
it's a BLUE-on-black.
1088
00:45:54,793 --> 00:45:56,173
Louis: The two or three
square miles
1089
00:45:56,275 --> 00:45:57,715
we saw the police operating in
1090
00:45:57,827 --> 00:46:01,237
was the most incarcerated
zip code in America.
1091
00:46:01,344 --> 00:46:04,074
So you had a community
which was in chaos,
1092
00:46:04,172 --> 00:46:07,382
where any police force
would have struggled.
1093
00:46:08,896 --> 00:46:10,896
- I've arrested people
three times,
1094
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:16,480
you know,
from age 15 to 18 to 26.
1095
00:46:16,586 --> 00:46:18,516
We just had a guy
that was killed yesterday
1096
00:46:18,620 --> 00:46:20,900
in our district,
and I knew him personally.
1097
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,210
Does it affect you at all?
1098
00:46:22,310 --> 00:46:25,690
You know, not to so sound
cold or heartless, er,
1099
00:46:25,793 --> 00:46:28,413
you just deal with
so many people that if...
1100
00:46:28,517 --> 00:46:30,997
if I cared about every single
one that I dealt with,
1101
00:46:31,103 --> 00:46:32,313
I think I would go crazy.
1102
00:46:32,413 --> 00:46:34,243
- What's the story?
Were you on the bike?
1103
00:46:34,344 --> 00:46:36,214
- Yes, we're going
back to his place
1104
00:46:36,310 --> 00:46:38,140
and, er, we just
got pulled over.
1105
00:46:38,241 --> 00:46:39,931
- Have you been
stopped before?
1106
00:46:40,034 --> 00:46:41,554
- Oh, yeah.
- For what?
1107
00:46:41,655 --> 00:46:43,685
For exactly this reason.
1108
00:46:43,793 --> 00:46:45,623
- Which is?
1109
00:46:45,724 --> 00:46:47,414
I fit their description.
1110
00:46:47,517 --> 00:46:49,307
- What are you filming?
- I'm filming you.
1111
00:46:49,413 --> 00:46:51,623
Why did you pick Milwaukee
to come film for?
1112
00:46:51,724 --> 00:46:53,284
'Cause, for a city its size,
1113
00:46:53,379 --> 00:46:55,069
it's got a high rate
of homicides.
1114
00:46:55,172 --> 00:46:57,452
They got a high rate
of police officers
1115
00:46:57,551 --> 00:46:59,381
killing the Black community.
1116
00:46:59,482 --> 00:47:01,552
I'm a community activist.
1117
00:47:01,655 --> 00:47:04,855
The police, they fail
to protect our community.
1118
00:47:04,965 --> 00:47:07,995
That's why we wear our
Black Lives Matter shirt,
1119
00:47:08,103 --> 00:47:09,663
'cause we do matter.
1120
00:47:09,758 --> 00:47:12,308
They don't care how our
neighbourhood look.
1121
00:47:14,413 --> 00:47:16,143
Louis: It was a community
in which
1122
00:47:16,241 --> 00:47:17,831
most of the dads were absent,
1123
00:47:17,931 --> 00:47:19,831
many of them
through being incarcerated,
1124
00:47:19,931 --> 00:47:21,521
and a younger generation
1125
00:47:21,620 --> 00:47:23,930
growing up
in fatherless families,
1126
00:47:24,034 --> 00:47:25,904
surrounded by grief.
1127
00:47:27,689 --> 00:47:31,449
- God does not deal in death,
God deals in life!
1128
00:47:32,275 --> 00:47:35,515
[anguished cries]
1129
00:47:35,620 --> 00:47:38,410
- It's a homecoming.
This is not no going away.
1130
00:47:38,517 --> 00:47:40,027
It's a homecoming.
1131
00:47:40,137 --> 00:47:41,587
You have been reborn.
1132
00:47:41,689 --> 00:47:44,279
- Amen.
1133
00:47:44,379 --> 00:47:46,379
Louis: Four years later,
in Minneapolis,
1134
00:47:46,482 --> 00:47:49,312
George Floyd
was killed by police.
1135
00:47:51,275 --> 00:47:53,545
This time,
the whole world took notice.
1136
00:47:55,034 --> 00:47:56,344
Newsreader: Protesters
are taking to the streets
1137
00:47:56,448 --> 00:47:57,788
across the country
1138
00:47:57,896 --> 00:48:00,336
for a second consecutive
weekend.
1139
00:48:00,448 --> 00:48:01,968
Louis: Among those
leading the demonstrations
1140
00:48:02,068 --> 00:48:03,588
in Milwaukee was Sedan,
1141
00:48:03,689 --> 00:48:05,759
the brother of Sylville Smith,
1142
00:48:05,862 --> 00:48:08,592
the young man
who was killed by the police.
1143
00:48:08,689 --> 00:48:11,619
So in this recent round
of protests
1144
00:48:11,724 --> 00:48:13,974
and demonstrations,
1145
00:48:14,068 --> 00:48:16,688
have you been encouraged
by that?
1146
00:48:16,793 --> 00:48:18,483
How do you view that?
1147
00:48:18,586 --> 00:48:19,826
- George Floyd's death
1148
00:48:19,931 --> 00:48:21,761
sparked something
in the community
1149
00:48:21,862 --> 00:48:24,212
that I've been trying
to get them to see for,
1150
00:48:24,310 --> 00:48:26,410
you know,
three and a half years.
1151
00:48:26,517 --> 00:48:29,477
Erm, it's more people on board,
1152
00:48:29,586 --> 00:48:31,166
it's different races.
1153
00:48:31,275 --> 00:48:35,895
It's people that are finally
waking up and seeing that,
1154
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,340
you know,
1155
00:48:37,448 --> 00:48:39,968
how can this not be
police brutality?
1156
00:48:40,068 --> 00:48:42,928
How can this not be murder?
1157
00:48:43,034 --> 00:48:46,384
Do you see a real possibility
of change now?
1158
00:48:46,482 --> 00:48:48,692
- Yes, I've been in communities
1159
00:48:48,793 --> 00:48:50,933
where I normally
wouldn't even be able
1160
00:48:51,034 --> 00:48:52,974
to walk down the block,
1161
00:48:53,068 --> 00:48:55,478
erm, without the police
being called on me
1162
00:48:55,586 --> 00:48:58,066
just for the colour
of my skin, and, erm,
1163
00:48:58,172 --> 00:49:00,072
now I have people that
are in those communities
1164
00:49:00,172 --> 00:49:01,722
that will work with me.
1165
00:49:01,827 --> 00:49:05,477
And if we can change Milwaukee,
as in, you know,
1166
00:49:05,586 --> 00:49:08,376
being one of our nation's
most segregated cities
1167
00:49:08,482 --> 00:49:11,002
to live in,
then it should go as an act
1168
00:49:11,103 --> 00:49:12,763
to showing the world
1169
00:49:12,862 --> 00:49:14,412
that we all can change.
1170
00:49:17,931 --> 00:49:21,141
Louis: The global surge of
support for Black Lives Matter
1171
00:49:21,241 --> 00:49:24,071
feels like
a necessary correction
1172
00:49:24,172 --> 00:49:27,972
of something that's been
in front of us, all of us.
1173
00:49:29,344 --> 00:49:31,834
An injustice that's finally
beginning to be recognised.
1174
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:36,590
People in prison,
1175
00:49:36,689 --> 00:49:38,619
or caught up in the system,
1176
00:49:38,724 --> 00:49:40,104
they aren't 'they',
1177
00:49:40,206 --> 00:49:42,516
they are potentially 'us'.
1178
00:49:48,482 --> 00:49:52,622
It was Max Weber who defined
the state as "that institution
1179
00:49:52,724 --> 00:49:55,794
"which has the monopoly
of legitimate force."
1180
00:49:55,896 --> 00:49:58,336
[siren wails]
1181
00:49:58,448 --> 00:50:00,278
It's built into the nature
of authority
1182
00:50:00,379 --> 00:50:03,409
that they are allowed,
in lawful circumstances,
1183
00:50:03,517 --> 00:50:06,097
to restrain you,
to lock you up.
1184
00:50:08,379 --> 00:50:10,029
You can't be naive about that.
1185
00:50:10,137 --> 00:50:12,067
This is part of
how order is maintained,
1186
00:50:12,172 --> 00:50:14,902
but it comes with an enormous
burden of responsibility
1187
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,030
to do it correctly.
1188
00:50:19,413 --> 00:50:21,313
It's an unenviable task,
in a way.
1189
00:50:21,413 --> 00:50:23,593
It's impossible to do perfectly,
1190
00:50:23,689 --> 00:50:28,479
but it isn't impossible
to do much better.
1191
00:50:30,344 --> 00:50:33,344
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