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WWW.MY-SUBS.COM
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This is ABC 11 Eyewitness News at six.
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Caitlin Atwater knows a year
can change a life forever.
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It's too much to even really say.
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One year ago today,
her mother, Kathleen Peterson, died.
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At first, Caitlin believed she fell down
the staircase as she was told.
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Now she believes
Michael Peterson murdered her mother,
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and she's certain
Peterson will be convicted
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in a criminal trial next spring.
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Why would Michael want
to kill your mother?
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I think that the Michael that I knew
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would not want to kill my mom.
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I think that...
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I didn't know him in the way that...
You know, I think that...
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I couldn't tell you why,
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because I didn't know the person
who killed my mom.
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You know? That's not...
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who he held himself out to be.
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It doesn't change any of my memories.
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It doesn't change the fact that I thought
they were happy together,
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but you don't end up
at the bottom of the stairs,
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under those circumstances
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if your life was
what everyone thought it was.
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From what we found, every aspect
of Mike Peterson's life is a lie.
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He's... He wasn't wounded in Vietnam.
He's not...
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I mean, he obviously served,
and I'm sure that he served bravely,
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but when he came back
from serving in Vietnam to Okinawa,
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injured in a jeep accident...
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He comes back to the States
or even wherever he's ever lived,
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he's told everybody
that he was injured in the war.
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That's just absolutely not true.
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There's, um... obviously other aspects
of his personality.
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He wanted to give the appearance
that this was a wholesome,
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blended, functioning family.
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Well, that simply is not true.
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The evidence is going to show
that he was having...
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um... an illicit relationship
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that... We believe
she likely found out about that,
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based upon information
that we found near the computer,
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and was contained in the computer.
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The evidence is going to show
that he is bisexual,
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and that he was having a relationship
with a man outside of this county.
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We both believe
that after she had a phone call
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from a person that worked at Nortel
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about an upcoming trip
that she was going to take
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that sometime perhaps
after that phone call,
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which could have been
anywhere between 10:30 and 11 o'clock,
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she discovered this information
on the computer, which,
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according to the persons
that know her well,
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they've told us that,
including most especially her sister,
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that she would have been infuriated
by learning that her husband,
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who she truly loved, was bisexual,
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and having an extramarital relationship
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not with another woman,
but even with a man,
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which would be humiliating
and embarrassing to her.
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We believe that once she learned
this information,
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that an argument ensued,
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and a homicide occurred.
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Yes, I've known about the bisexuality
since I was about...
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I can't remember, 13 or 14 years old?
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And I learned about it from a friend.
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Um...
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And my parents knew.
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Uh... And, um...
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it's, you know, just part of his life
since that... since that time.
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And I felt from the beginningĀ that
the prosecution was going to go there,
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that this would end up being
an important thing for them.
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The reason I believe that is because...
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when they executed the search warrant,
the police,
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the second search warrant...
The first was December 9 or 10.
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The second was the evening of the wake,
the following Wednesday.
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And they were here for several hours,
and then they left,
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but when they left the house
and we came back into the house,
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they left a picture
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uh... on a table in the den.
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The table was completely clean,
nothing on it except one picture,
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and the picture was from his computer,
which they had taken.
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They had downloaded
or printed off this picture,
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and it was pornographic.
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And it was a message.
I knew... I knew that was a message,
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that they left it there on purpose
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so that we would see it,
and that we would find it,
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and what the message was
to me and to him,
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"We know what you're like,
we know this secret life of yours,
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and we don't like it,
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and we're going to do
something about it."
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I was looking out here,
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dealing with photographs
that were taken from his computer,
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and most of them are, um...
homosexual military men,
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and there are all different types
of things that they're doing,
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but, you know, multiple partners,
but they're all portrayed as being...
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gay military men
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um... performing sexual acts
on each other.
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And part of, um...
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One of the persons that we believe
that he had had a relationship with...
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um...
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We... We believe he came...
He met this person from a website
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that, once again, was designed
for homosexual military men
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and this individual that has been
interviewed and that we know about,
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that we believe had some type
of relationship with Mr. Peterson,
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contemporaneous with the time period
that we've been talking about...
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He fits right into this mold.
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It's not the type of thing your typical
average juror or typical average citizen
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would want to access,
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nor would want to play out
in their personal lives.
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Not if they want to portray themselves
as someone that has this perfect marriage
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or however he wants to make
his life seem, so perfect, um...
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with his wife.
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But it's obviously
very powerful information
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that he wants kept from...
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the public in particular,
but certainly the jury.
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Because it could be very damaging,
from a lot of perspectives.
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- You got his statement?
- Mm-hm.
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- What'd he say?
- He said you had sex with him.
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- Oh, you're shitting me.
- No.
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Four or five times.
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Where?
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I... I don't know all the details,
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'cause I was skimming through
all the stuff,
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and when I came to his...
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- You're kidding me.
- Uh-uh.
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That's what he's claiming.
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That's what he's claiming.
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- Oh, my God.
- Everybody wants a piece of you.
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Jesus Christ!
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Or everybody claims
to have a piece of you.
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One of the two.
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- And you have his statement?
- Yeah, yeah, we copied it.
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Send me a copy of that statement.
I'm dying to see that.
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I'll get it tomorrow.
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Was it a short statement
or a long statement?
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About a page-and-a-half.
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- Okay.
- Handwritten.
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Handwritten? Okay.
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He didn't indicate where
this great love affair took place?
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Yeah, but Mike, I cannot remember it.
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So...
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Rather know now than later.
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I'll say. God, I'll say, for sure.
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So I talked to Dave about Dennis,
and we're going to rethink...
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We're going to digest the statements,
and then rethink as to how to approach it.
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Okay. All right.
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Jesus. All right.
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God!
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Hmm...
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Okay, well,
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if you say "relationships",
that would mean...
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That would imply more than...
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you know, sex, for instance,
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and that never happened.
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I mean, I'm a very...
I'm not that multi-faceted,
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you know, that I could have
more than one relationship.
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I'm a monogamous person
in the sense that I don't...
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There was Kathleen,
and she took up my whole life.
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Uh...
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Could I have sex? Yes.
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That could exist, but not a relationship.
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I could not, you know, go to dinner,
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you know, or have a...
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No, it would be inconceivable
that, that...
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Because she fulfilled all of that
and actually fulfilled...
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certainly sexual,
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but there was this other aspect
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of me that just existed,
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and I...
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yes, did have sex.
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No injuries to Mike Peterson, good fact.
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Mm-hm.
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Search of vehicles finds nothing,
good fact.
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Okay, what else?
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Number of lacerations.
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Relationship
between Mike and Kathleen.
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Imprecise statement
from Mike Peterson about what happened.
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No motive at all.
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- Well, that's not a fact.
- Well, okay.
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"No intimate" says bad marriage,
or trouble.
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That's true, and no affairs,
no current affairs.
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No intimate.
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Apparent happiness that evening.
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Mike ignoring
the 911 operator's questions.
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- Right.
- He called two times.
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Right.
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He said she was breathing,
the first call.
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He said she was breathing.
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He said she was breathing.
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- Good and bad?
- Yeah.
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- Right.
- Emails.
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- What does this mean, "emails?"
- Bi, uh... Gay emails.
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Affair during the marriage.
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Gay affair.
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- Nobody knew about the bisexuality.
- Bisexuality hidden.
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- Hidden.
- She knew.
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Who can testify that she knew?
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Who is the fact witness that can say
that she knew that he was bisexual?
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- Mike.
- Anybody besides Mike?
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- Yes. Todd.
- Todd and Mike are the only two people.
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That is a negative, negative, negative.
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That is a big, huge negative, I think.
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Is there anybody in this room
who believes she probably didn't know?
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Let's go back to the truth for a second,
reality.
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The relationship was
a beautiful relationship,
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and a loving relationship,
and I think we can prove it.
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We know that there is
a bisexual hidden life here.
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We know that.
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Is it possible...
I'm sitting there as a juror.
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Is it possible that a marriage
can function that way?
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- And the answer is it can.
- Of course.
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- And marriages do function that way.
- It does in France all the time.
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Do you think
that merely because he was bisexual
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would make it more likely to you
that he would murder?
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That's the right question, all right.
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What the State is trying to do here
is prejudice the jury against this guy.
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It's got nothing to do with evidence
of guilt or innocence in this case,
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because they want to attack him
for his personal life, or what-have-you.
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If that's all you've got, folks,
if that's all the State's got,
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we know you're going to acquit this case.
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Let's assume
that all this bad stuff comes in.
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We gotta ask ourselves,
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"What can Mike do to counteract that,
versus making it worse?"
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I think that if all he's gonna do
is get out and say,
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"I wasn't having an affair at the time,
and she knew I was bisexual,"
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that will not have any credibility at all.
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You know,
my approach has always been, uh...
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I'm not going to put my client
on the stand,
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unless it becomes absolutely essential,
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unless there is something he can do
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that I have to have done
that I can't do myself,
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and unless I'm convinced
that we're going to lose the case
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unless he gets on the stand.
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I think Mike can come across
pretty well on direct.
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Whether he stands up to cross
is a different issue,
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but I think he can be taught on that.
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And some of the bad stuff
we may have to deal with anyway.
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Mike gets on the witness stand
and a good cross-examiner
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is gonna be able to make his actions
seem unreasonable.
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And once he gets on the stand, too,
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they can start bringing up,
to impeach him, can't they?
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- All the stuff about the...
- Oh, God! Let's get into that.
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"Sir, you don't always tell the truth,
do you?"
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00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,920
- "You know when..."
- "Yes, I try to."
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"Well, I understand you try to,
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00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,360
but sometimes when it doesn't suit you,
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you lie about certain things, don't you?"
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- "What do you mean by that?"
- You know.
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"For example, in your mayoral race,
245
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,720
it wouldn't have helped you very much
to admit
246
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,120
that you had actually gotten
your injuries in a car accident, right?
247
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,880
In a book jacket, you painted yourself
248
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,640
as having gotten these injuries
in Vietnam, right?"
249
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:44,200
"This is true."
250
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,040
"And you kept that lie going
for years, didn't you?"
251
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:48,640
Right?
252
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,480
Without Michael on the stand,
253
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,280
whatever gay stuff gets in,
254
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,040
I can argue they have
so little real evidence here,
255
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,280
that they're getting
into his private sex life.
256
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,520
I mean, even if we have to concede it,
257
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,840
what does it have to do with... You know?
258
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,240
And I can sort of get into it
as gay-bashing.
259
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,760
- You know, and, you know, sort of...
- Yeah, I like it.
260
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,000
As opposed to it becoming
a credibility thing,
261
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,520
with Michael having to admit,
262
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,720
"Yeah, you know, I've had, you know,
homosexual relationships,
263
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,200
but not with him."
264
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,320
I mean, what good does that do us?
265
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,440
Michael's the only one who can deny
266
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,840
an active, current
homosexual relationship.
267
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,880
You know what? If someone's gonna say...
268
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,800
- Let me tell you...
- His credibility versus the emails...
269
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,240
Oh, my God, come on.
270
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,560
- His denial will have no credibility.
- Okay.
271
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,240
- We have to suppress those emails.
- Let's talk about...
272
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,480
Right, let's talk about that for a second.
273
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,360
You know, uh... "Mr. Peterson,
274
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,560
you claim that Dennis Rowe is just lying,
making this up?
275
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,440
- Is that what you're saying?"
- "Yes."
276
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,000
"Well, Dennis Rowe didn't make up
those emails on your computer, did he?"
277
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,040
"No, but those emails
are on the computer."
278
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,600
"Sir, my question was, 'Dennis Rowe
didn't make up those emails, did he?'"
279
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:05,520
"No, he did not."
280
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,640
- "You wrote those emails, didn't you?"
- "I did."
281
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,560
"You wrote the emails saying you wanted
to suck so-and-so's dick, didn't you?"
282
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,120
"No. Are there emails saying that?"
283
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,880
- "Yes, sir."
- "To two different people. Brad and..."
284
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,200
"Have you forgotten?
285
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,160
Didn't you want to suck their dicks?"
286
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:22,400
Can we take a moment?
287
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,280
"It has to be in the afternoon,
because at night my wife is home."
288
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,760
You have to swallow hard, Bill?
289
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,280
Maybe we'll work with him together.
It doesn't mean...
290
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,760
Can you say for him
291
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,360
- what your goals are for this session?
- Mm-hm. Yeah.
292
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,960
And certainly if things come up
in terms of testimony,
293
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,640
that, uh, David wants to spend time with,
294
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,200
he may veer in
a million different directions,
295
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:13,920
but just in terms of us together,
296
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,520
and using this time for the space
of the configurations of the courtroom.
297
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:25,040
Yeah, I'm not so interested, Mike,
in particular substance right now.
298
00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:27,680
What I'm really interested in right now
299
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,480
is getting you up in a witness chair,
talking with a jury...
300
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:33,400
Mm-hm.
301
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,040
...and not going into some role
302
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,000
that's designed to shield...
303
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:42,640
- what's inside.
- Okay.
304
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,160
What I'm hoping is that the role you play
305
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,080
up on the jury,
up in the witness box,
306
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,560
is the role that you played with Kathleen.
307
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,040
- Okay.
- Uh...
308
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,280
In terms of just your... who you are.
309
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,120
You know, I want the jury
to see the same person
310
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:03,000
that Kathleen saw.
311
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,920
Okay, um...
312
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,680
You sing around the house
to yourself, don't you?
313
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,320
- I thought I heard you...
- Hum.
314
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:10,440
- Hum.
- I hum.
315
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,040
What's the song you hum?
316
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,920
I don't think it is a song. I just hum.
317
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,400
What's a song you know?
318
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,600
Look for a way in, not a way out.
319
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,960
It is sort of a dum-dee-dee,
dee-dee-dee...
320
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,200
It used to be Kathleen's joke.
321
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,720
- "Is this the 'dee-dee-dee' song?"
- Right.
322
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,120
"Or the 'duh-duh-duh' song?"
323
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,480
Now let the hands out of the pockets,
324
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:35,800
and just walk... just easy.
325
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:39,760
Louder.
326
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,200
Now send it to that seat in the jury box.
327
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,480
- Blah.
- Blah.
328
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,840
- Right to specific places, so it's...
- Blah.
329
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,120
Good. Widen the stance, relax the body.
Blah blah.
330
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,640
I'm gonna have to go back to "Do-Re-Mi."
331
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:21,840
Go to "America the Beautiful,"
332
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,520
but we're going to be asking you
about your sex life, my friend,
333
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,960
- so just let's get some...
- That might be easier than singing.
334
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,880
- Add some sound. Come on.
- Aaaah...
335
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:29,800
Aaah!
336
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,280
I slit a sheet.
337
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,240
- I slit a sheet.
- A sheet I slit.
338
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:38,080
A sheet I slit.
339
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,040
Upon a slitted sheet I sit.
340
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,240
Upon a slitted sheet I sit.
341
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,000
I slit a sheet, a sheet I slit.
Upon a slitted sheet I sit.
342
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,400
Don't protect yourself.
I slit a sheet, a sheet I slit.
343
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,200
Upon a slitted sheet I sit. Do it. Please!
344
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,680
I shit a sleet, er, sheet,
I sat upon a slitted sheet.
345
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,080
Now, I slit a sheet, a sheet I slit,
upon a slitted sheet I sit.
346
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,440
- I shit a sleet...
- Good.
347
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,160
And that's just the deal.
348
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,000
You may misspeak,
a word like "shit" may come out.
349
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,920
You may make a mistake, big deal.
350
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,520
Mr. Peterson,
I want to read you something,
351
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,280
and I'm going to ask you,
352
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:17,920
after you've heard it,
if you recognize it.
353
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,680
"Did your friend die for anything?
354
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,040
I hope so, if only because there is
something in him that lives in you.
355
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,080
Every man who dies can live on in us."
356
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,120
I think I wrote that.
357
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:42,360
I hope I did.
358
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,680
Do you believe it to be true
as you sit here today?
359
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,040
Yes.
360
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,320
What parts of Kathleen live on in you?
361
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:58,080
Hmm...
362
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,600
Good, we don't need
to hear the answer now.
363
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,200
- Okay.
- Just your willingness to go there...
364
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:20,680
was enough.
365
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:22,480
Good.
366
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,000
Okay, Mr. Peterson, you're under oath.
367
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:30,640
- Correct?
- Yes.
368
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,000
And you expect this jury to believe you?
369
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,960
- Yes.
- To treat you as an honest person?
370
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,280
Yes.
371
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,200
But the truth is,
there have been times in your life
372
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,000
where you have lied
because it benefited you.
373
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,000
I would say, probably,
that's a good characterization,
374
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,480
although I might say...
375
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:56,880
it's easier.
376
00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:00,240
It was just easier sometimes
to let the lie...
377
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:03,160
come out.
378
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:08,520
And for example now,
you married Patricia Peterson in 1966.
379
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,120
- Isn't that correct?
- Correct.
380
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,240
And during your marriage,
you had a number of affairs.
381
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,000
- Yes.
- They were not all women, were they?
382
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:20,560
No.
383
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:22,880
And you did continue to have affairs,
384
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,120
even after your relationship
with Kathleen began?
385
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,960
That's a word I...
386
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,000
- Affairs to me mean...
- Sex.
387
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,640
How do you describe it?
One incident or... or affairs?
388
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,480
You have...
The word "affairs" is confusing to you?
389
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,000
- Yes.
- Let's make it simple then, sir.
390
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,320
You had sex with other people
391
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,200
after your relationship
with Kathleen began.
392
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,240
- That's correct.
- Men?
393
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:49,560
- That's correct.
- And women?
394
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:50,600
No.
395
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:52,040
- Just men?
- Yes.
396
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:55,000
So now this is different from when
you were married to Patty Peterson?
397
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:57,960
- Yes.
- Okay.
398
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,720
How many different men
did you have sex with
399
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,800
after you started your relationship
with Kathleen Peterson?
400
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:06,440
Maybe six.
401
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:07,880
Not sure?
402
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,880
Maybe five, maybe seven.
Somewhere in that number.
403
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,840
In fact, you never talked about that
with Kathleen.
404
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,880
Well, we did talk about it.
405
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,680
That you were having sex
with other men during the marriage?
406
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,320
In the sense that yes,
she understood that.
407
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:27,960
She understood it was with men?
408
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:29,440
Oh, yes.
409
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,240
And you actually told her that?
410
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,920
It was simply understood again that...
411
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,080
No, I think it would have been,
for some strange reason,
412
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,920
maybe been more upsetting to her
if it had been other women.
413
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,800
I think that might have
threatened her more, I don't know,
414
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,400
but in all the conversations
that we'd have, all the joking,
415
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,760
every time we go to a military base,
416
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,880
"They're just like you. They're all gay.
Look, they're all touching each other,
417
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,720
patting each other all the time."
418
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,120
I think that there was
enough awareness on her part
419
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,600
of me as a person, and who I was,
420
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,960
which is what made
this relationship so good,
421
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,800
that yes, she understood
these aspects about me
422
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,240
and was not bothered by that,
because I loved her,
423
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,080
that yes, I did have sex
with other people,
424
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,040
but that had absolutely nothing to do
425
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,920
with not loving Kathleen or...
426
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,000
loving her less.
427
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,440
Mike, what do you think?
How are you feeling compared to, say,
428
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,440
what we did earlier in the office?
429
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,360
I would have no clue.
430
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,640
- Honestly?
- Honestly.
431
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,000
My sense is that you are not parsing.
432
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,040
You are not...
433
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,480
trying to win on any technicalities.
434
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,800
- No.
- I saw nobody who was being tricky.
435
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,560
Someone who assumed responsibility,
436
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,280
and someone who within the...
437
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:51,320
No, and I told you this,
guys, from the beginning.
438
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,080
My ass, life, totally is in your hands,
and I know that.
439
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,320
And I'm not gonna outsmart you,
I'm not gonna outsmart Hardin,
440
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,440
I'm not gonna outsmart anybody and...
441
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,800
I'm gonna tell you... this.
442
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,280
At one point,
you actually even leaned into the wind,
443
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:06,640
- physically...
- Hmm.
444
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,720
...and it was a cold wind,
445
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,920
so I thought,
"Okay, he's gonna be fine."
446
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:29,640
- Hi.
- Hey.
447
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,720
Hey! Good to see you.
448
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,480
Right this way. Come on in.
449
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:35,680
All right.
450
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:42,600
Hello.
451
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,680
Take a seat anywhere.
452
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,080
Number one, I want to talk about
additional survey stuff
453
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,840
to give us more...
454
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:57,000
insight, and what I would call triggers,
key questions, so, uh...
455
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,480
Well, how do you approach
the bisexuality issue?
456
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,560
Since we didn't do it last time
for the reasons you expressed.
457
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,000
It seems like that reason still applies
for not doing it.
458
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,240
- Well, we need...
- But it's a big issue.
459
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,160
You would hide it
in a list of questions, like,
460
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,800
"What are your views
about heterosexuals?"
461
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,480
You know, you have a whole list of...
462
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,480
I really think probably we're gonna have
to pick a topic like marriage.
463
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:19,880
- Right.
- You know.
464
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,800
"What are the kind of reasons...
What can you accept within a marriage?"
465
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,800
That kind of thing, rather than just go
on the issue of bisexuality.
466
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,240
No, but I do think we need to find out
their attitudes towards homosexuality.
467
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,440
Well, we will. Or we could do it that way.
468
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,520
And then you've got to ask,
out of at least 400 or 500 people,
469
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,480
to have a statistically meaningful sample,
470
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,680
and so, you know, we're talking about
a significant expenditure,
471
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,120
but in my mind, you know,
472
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,360
if you were choosing between this
and a mock trial in this case,
473
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:53,760
I'd choose this.
474
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,440
A survey and then analyzing the data,
475
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,080
then coming up with some conclusions,
which is going to cost what?
476
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:06,080
It's probably going to be
in the $35,000 to $40,000 range.
477
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,040
Okay.
478
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,240
So that's a total of, like, cash
we have to come up with
479
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,000
to carry this case through trial...
480
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,800
of $385,000, you know,
that's what we're dealing with.
481
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,600
I mean, you guys are spending the money,
and, you know, Mike,
482
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,080
it's your life, but I'm just telling you
483
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,600
that sometimes what you find out
is intuitive
484
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,560
and sometimes what you find out
is counter-intuitive,
485
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,760
and it's the counter-intuitive stuff
486
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,160
that you just would never know.
487
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,600
You know, you find out one thing
that's counter-intuitive in that survey
488
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,440
for $35,000,
489
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,160
and it's mighty cheap.
490
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,440
It's mighty cheap, when you stack that up
against the rest of your life.
491
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:48,320
Uh-huh.
492
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:49,240
Okay.
493
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,440
We have our schedule down.
494
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,600
So, what we're going to have,
it's going to cost 65, 67...
495
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,680
700, we know for a fact
between $750,000 to $800,000.
496
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,840
I think we were originally thinking
500 to 550, something like that.
497
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:21,280
So it's cost us another $250,000...
498
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:23,080
$300,000 more.
499
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,720
- Over budget.
- Over budget.
500
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,240
If we were a business,
we'd be out of business.
501
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,480
Then again, what do people do
who don't have any money?
502
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:35,880
I mean, you know, the rich get off.
503
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,920
Well, the reason,
the only reason the rich get off
504
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,920
is because they can afford
to defend themselves.
505
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,280
The damn poor go to jail,
506
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,480
because they can't afford
to defend themselves.
507
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:45,400
Period.
508
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,400
Not in every case of course,
but that's pretty much it.
509
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:50,960
What would somebody do in my case?
510
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,960
First off, they wouldn't have been
prosecuted like this.
511
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:55,960
But then the other thing is,
512
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,560
they'd be hopeless,
hopeless in hiring experts,
513
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,400
or somebody to come in
and prove that, "No, this didn't happen."
514
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,960
Yeah, I think the State budgets
and allocates a certain amount,
515
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,400
- but it's nowhere near what's needed.
- No, nothing like that.
516
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:09,960
Yeah, American justice.
517
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,120
Yeah, the American justice is...
518
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,680
very, very expensive.
519
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,080
At the end of this light,
this is the end of the white neighborhood.
520
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,240
All up in here, everything is white.
521
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:35,720
Everybody is white.
522
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,240
And then starting across this street,
523
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:46,880
everything is black.
524
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,320
This is the biggest scandal
in Durham right here.
525
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,960
They've put in millions of dollars
to build these houses
526
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,520
that they were going to be
for poor people.
527
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,000
And it's just crooked,
528
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,200
and it was never developed, of course.
529
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:07,680
The houses are not...
530
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:09,840
occupied.
531
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:12,640
It's in bankruptcy.
532
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,560
They built these apartments. Look at that.
533
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,360
These are... Only a few years ago.
534
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,000
They're falling apart.
535
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,080
They're just... It's just a travesty.
536
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,280
And it's a beautiful... As you can see,
it's a beautiful piece of property.
537
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,240
It overlooks the city.
538
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,320
I mean, this is one of the nicest areas.
539
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,880
This is the story of Durham.
540
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,680
Promises and promises,
and then corruption,
541
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:39,680
and theft,
542
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:42,920
and lies.
543
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,640
When I came to Durham
544
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,120
for the first time in 1961,
over 40 years ago,
545
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,120
I just couldn't believe that...
546
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,880
Well, they couldn't, blacks couldn't go
to school with white people,
547
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,720
they couldn't eat in restaurants.
548
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,280
They were not much better
than in slavery times.
549
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,840
And after 40 years,
550
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:18,320
there are definitely some rich blacks,
and certainly society has gotten better,
551
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,520
but in many regards,
552
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,120
it's just as bad,
553
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,400
and in some cases,
it's worse than it ever was.
554
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,600
And all we do in this town is...
555
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,200
not deal with the real problems.
556
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,120
The real problems are crime,
drugs, ignorance,
557
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,200
and nobody wants to talk about that.
558
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,880
I find that, for instance,
559
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,200
in my case, everybody, every day,
560
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,960
my God, pounds of newsprint,
561
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,760
ink, paper, and all the media.
562
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,200
Everybody's focused on my trial.
563
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,200
It's a diversion.
564
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,800
It's something that...
It's an entertainment.
565
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:05,960
It's a show,
566
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,480
and if one tenth, one tenth...
567
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,240
of that amount of time
or media exposure,
568
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,800
if it were given to what's real
and what's true, the problems,
569
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,280
things would get better.
570
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,480
It was four years ago, 1999.
571
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,360
I was writing about Rolling Hills,
that place that we just saw.
572
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:30,440
That's what I was...
573
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,680
uh, starting with that.
574
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,480
It's mostly about corruption.
575
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,600
"Cops solve 5% of crimes. Why?"
576
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,640
"Despite an onslaught of publicity
on how crime is down,
577
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,960
streets are safer, drug traffic reduced,
578
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,560
one figure remains truly alarming:
579
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,440
the clearance rate of crime.
580
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,040
Police solve about five percent
of reported crimes,
581
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,200
while ticket collection is, by comparison,
an impressive 33 percent."
582
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,960
Then there's this one...
I didn't attack the DA very often.
583
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,480
And it says, basically,
584
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,520
"The DA's got a hard thing for bingo,
585
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,600
so he sends the cops out
to close down the bingo parlors.
586
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:16,760
Why?
587
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,480
Because he can't get anybody
for anything else.
588
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,120
My God, there's more crime in City Hall
than in Southern Italy.
589
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,960
The DA and cops can't catch
any real criminals in City Hall,
590
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,880
so they go after underage voters
and bingo players."
591
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,000
So, I mean, it was just a commentary
and I didn't attack him personally.
592
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,000
I didn't say anything negative
about his, you know, personal life.
593
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,840
I don't know anything
about his personal life,
594
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,560
and I would never say anything
about anybody's personal life anyway.
595
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,880
But everybody knows,
596
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,080
and I should have certainly known better,
597
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,080
that when you make fun of people,
598
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:51,560
they don't like it.
599
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,040
It's just that simple.
600
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,040
And if you make them look silly
or ridiculous,
601
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,440
uh... they remember that.
602
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,720
Gotta speak up
or forever hold your peace.
603
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,240
I put it in there, obviously.
604
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,080
The pants are 34.
605
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:25,920
The shirt's 33.
606
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:30,160
Yes, sir.
607
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,080
This is on top
608
00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:47,080
of the blood smears and blood spatter.
609
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,200
That's basically the last one.
610
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:57,040
And here,
this has to be after the urine deposit.
611
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,280
Smaller one is one millimeter to...
612
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,000
approximately four millimeter.
613
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,840
Three inches by two-and-a-half inch.
614
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,400
Here, blood spatter radiates out
from the center.
615
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,880
See now, I looked at those,
and I thought, "Okay, bloody pants."
616
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,200
I would have spent three minutes
looking at them, but, uh...
617
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,520
Henry's a whole different story.
618
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:40,440
You can see these blood stains.
619
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,280
Basically, you have multiple deposits.
620
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,040
You have a blood spatter underneath it.
621
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,920
You have under blood stains,
and additional blood stains.
622
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,960
That tells me
it's not coming out at one time.
623
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,640
It's multiple deposits.
624
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,840
And that is consistent
with what Warner is saying
625
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,200
about the fact that she wouldn't
have lost consciousness
626
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,560
for some extended period of time.
627
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:09,520
She has to be conscious,
then get up, sit up, and was moving.
628
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,680
All right, so the pants, itself,
can tell us a story.
629
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,360
She was up.
630
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,320
- And there was some... timeline.
- Timeline.
631
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,760
- Up and down, timeline, in between.
- Right.
632
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,120
The fact that you've got less blood
on the bottom than here,
633
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,120
is there any chance
that she's on her knees, slouched over,
634
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,600
because there's more blood
on this side than there is on that side,
635
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,480
against the wall?
636
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,760
This portion probably
was when they initially put the towel.
637
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,960
Maybe she... her body was up here.
638
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,000
I'm sure that's right.
639
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:47,960
Do you see what I mean, Ron?
640
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,720
That's the position
when they took the picture.
641
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:51,680
Right.
642
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,440
We have to look at the scientific fact,
643
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,600
and base our interpretation
purely on the scientific fact.
644
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,720
The first thing, when I look at the scene,
645
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,480
I notice the tremendous amount
of blood spatter.
646
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,240
Ordinary beating up scene,
we don't see that much blood spatter.
647
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,520
The second thing I noticed,
648
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,800
all those blood spatter
come from different directions.
649
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,120
If I'm beating in the same direction,
650
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,080
and repetitively, in theory,
651
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,040
we should see most spatter
come from one direction,
652
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,280
goes to other direction.
653
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,840
The third area I feel strange is,
654
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,160
I examined the upper wall, the ceiling,
655
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,800
carefully, inch by inch,
in the staircase area.
656
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,520
I did not see a single blood spatter
on the ceiling
657
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:00,320
constituting as a cast-off pattern.
658
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,400
Mr. Lee seemed to, um...
659
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,720
The only thing he wanted to prove
was that it wasn't a beating.
660
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,360
He never even wanted to consider
that it could be.
661
00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:15,320
Never even wanted to think
that it was possible.
662
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,600
- He only wanted to prove that it wasn't.
- Mm-hm.
663
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,520
I personally think
that Lee was trying to...
664
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,120
was acting like he was being paid to try
to convince somebody of something.
665
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,560
- Okay.
- That's the impression I got from him.
666
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,520
I thought that Lee, he was terribly
difficult to understand, and as a result,
667
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,360
- I found my... my mind wandering.
- Okay.
668
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,200
So that there were a lot of questions
that he might have answered,
669
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,360
- but I don't remember.
- Sure.
670
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:43,280
Um...
671
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,120
And I felt that he just took the evidence
672
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,480
and stretched it to fit whatever he needed
673
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,320
to counteract what the defense was saying.
674
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,120
- Okay.
- When I first heard him,
675
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,120
I thought, "Man, this guy reminds me
of my junior year calculus teacher."
676
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:03,800
I couldn't understand him, either.
677
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,000
But, you know, it...
678
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,600
after, I mean,
I think he's very qualified.
679
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,920
I actually really think he knows
what he's talking about,
680
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:13,800
but he comes off kinda hokey,
681
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,080
- because I couldn't understand him.
- Right.
682
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,760
But I think if he had been given
a little more latitude,
683
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,360
he may have been able to convince me
a little more
684
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,840
- about what he was talking about.
- Okay.
685
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,960
He didn't come up with anything
686
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,440
that really made a plausible other
explanation for what happened.
687
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,600
It still didn't make a very good case
for it being just a fall down the stairs.
688
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:36,320
So I was left kind of wondering,
689
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,680
"If he doesn't think it was a beating,
what was it?"
690
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:40,720
Okay, thank you.
691
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,520
I'm just very freaked out.
692
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:46,640
One of the things you gotta think about
when you think of Dr. Lee
693
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:50,160
is that this is not California,
this is not New York City.
694
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,080
This is The South,
695
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,560
and I think
that part of what we're hearing here
696
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,800
is a reaction to ethnic differences.
697
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,320
- Probably, but...
- It's difficult.
698
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,080
Now, the substantive part of it
699
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,080
is that it's very overwhelming...
700
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:06,440
um...
701
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,800
evidence of the blood and the wounds
that we're gonna see,
702
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,320
but I think that, to me,
703
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,760
the most important things were
he's a hired witness,
704
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:16,520
he's not clear,
705
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,560
he talks with an accent, he's too general.
706
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:20,920
Um...
707
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,600
He doesn't provide
an alternative explanation.
708
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,960
He doesn't provide
an alternative "what happened".
709
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,480
So I'm not sure that we're gonna be able
to come up with a, a...
710
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,400
good explanation.
711
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,400
Even if we spent an hour with Henry,
talking about the limits of science
712
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:36,680
- and the danger...
- No, it's not.
713
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,200
They look at all this blood and say,
"In the right case maybe,
714
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:40,720
- but not in this case."
- Right.
715
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,160
Here, you have to be able to know
something about what happened.
716
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,760
There's just too much blood, too much
movement to not have some information.
717
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,880
Because people have this image that
we're saying she fell from the very top,
718
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,840
- so why aren't her bones broken?
- Right.
719
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,440
And if she fell that far,
how could she possibly get up again?
720
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,840
I mean somehow we have to paint
this scenario
721
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,960
that this happened
three or four stairs up.
722
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,440
She fell, you know,
fell back and hit her head,
723
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,520
started bleeding, slipped and fell again.
724
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,400
I think Henry is not really comfortable
doing a lot more than poking holes.
725
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,560
So we need to think about that,
726
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,600
because that's clearly, at least
in this context, a big question for them.
727
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:16,680
The State has a theory,
the defense doesn't.
728
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,360
All the defense has is critiques.
729
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,000
I've got a theory
730
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,560
that if she's, for example,
if she's on the floor,
731
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,240
leaning against the... the chair-lift,
732
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,360
and she goes up and her feet slip out...
733
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,840
She never actually stood up at all.
She's got her feet...
734
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,960
Right, right. Feet under, slip back again.
735
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,480
She's got a .07 alcohol.
736
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:40,600
She's got Valium.
737
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,440
There's blood on the floor.
738
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,480
You've got this thing
so every time she falls...
739
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,920
she's hitting her head
from about the same distance
740
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:51,800
right on that metal thing.
741
00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:04,320
So what's the overall?
Bad news, good news, what?
742
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,920
The overall bad news is, again,
we don't...
743
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:09,560
- We don't have any...
- If we can...
744
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,640
We have no explanation
to tell them what happened.
745
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:13,920
David and I talked about doing
an animation
746
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,280
to reconstruct exactly how these injuries
might be inflicted by a fall.
747
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:19,200
Right.
748
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:22,360
That's the dog?
749
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,840
Yeah, I haven't... I haven't heard it.
750
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,160
I don't want to hear it.
751
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:28,640
Hmm! Hello, guys! Come on!
752
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,960
Where's Wilbur? Hey, Wilbur!
753
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,720
What did you do with him? Huh?
754
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,840
The other bad thing that I didn't mention
was the autopsy photos are so visceral.
755
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,480
- Oh, Jesus, yeah.
- People just react...
756
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,080
- People just react to them immediately.
- Yeah.
757
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,920
Are they that gruesome?
Are they that awful?
758
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,200
Yeah, they're pretty bad.
759
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,960
You look at them initially
and you think, "Man, this couldn't..."
760
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,520
Your initial reaction
from looking at the autopsy photos
761
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,600
is you can't get that from a fall.
762
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:56,880
- Hmm.
- Which is one of our problems,
763
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,960
because we can't precisely explain
how you do and can get it from a fall.
764
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:02,760
Right.
765
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,520
But all he can say is they didn't come
from a beating either, right?
766
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,240
Definitely did not come from a beating.
We're very strong on that.
767
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,000
They've got the burden of proof, so...
768
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:14,400
Yeah, but that burden of proof
is sort of like innocent...
769
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,960
It's like innocent until proven guilty,
which we all know is horse shit.
770
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,360
You're guilty the minute that they...
771
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:22,640
No, don't be such a cynic.
772
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:25,240
People get off on that all the time.
You just don't read about it.
773
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,520
No, I am a cynic on that. It's, uh...
774
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,760
Well, innocent until proven guilty,
I think, is...
775
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,360
No, the overwhelming thing is me.
776
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,040
The police arrest you, you're guilty.
777
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:38,640
This is what people believe.
778
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,080
Well, that's why our main theory
of the case is, in the blow-up,
779
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,800
well, how did this...
how did this case get transformed
780
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,640
from accident,
as reported by them initially,
781
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,520
to a murder?
782
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,560
- Right.
- David is thinking about taking the...
783
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,320
you know, the original report
from Dr. Snell, the medical examiner,
784
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,480
where he concluded thatĀ in his opinion,
she fell down the stairs.
785
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,800
- It was a fall, right?
- He actually offered an explanation.
786
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,920
Said she fell on the third step,
and then hit her head somewhere else.
787
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,280
- Really?
- It's fairly detailed.
788
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,080
The medical examiner says
it's an accident
789
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:14,280
while he was here, right?
790
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,040
- Exactly.
- So there was not a single thing
791
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:17,600
that Holland had to go on...
792
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:19,680
- Right?
- Nothing.
793
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:22,080
And yet within...
794
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,160
hell, 30 minutes of that son-of-a-bitch
coming in here, it was...
795
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:29,840
it was a crime scene, and I was...
796
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,440
And I was guilty, and that was it.
64470
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