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[Air conditioner humming]
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[Allen Greenfield] The Secret Chiefs
of the Third Order are supposed
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to be ascended masters.
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And the idea there is they
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are human beings who have,
similar to Bodhisattvas
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in Eastern Philosophy,
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They are at a level of
enlightenment that they are
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capable of going on to Buddhahood
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or whatever the western equivalent of
that would be.
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But they choose to remain in order to
be able to assist
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other people in their development.
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You, if I had to guess, I would guess
you are being guided
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by the Third Order.
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♪ Hellier Theme ♪
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[Greg] Allen Greenfield has been a
ghost that has been
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hovering over this case since the
very beginning.
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He's just such a big part of
this case, you know?
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There he is.
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[Greg] We were looking into
Allen Greenfield from the very start.
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I had originally reached out to
Allen when the Hellier stuff
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had first popped off because I wanted
to get his impressions
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on what was going on.
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I wanted to know if he thought
that Terry Wriste had actually
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emailed me.
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And he was of the mindset that
it was probably
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a disinformation agent.
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So now I've got all these ideas floating
around in my head
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from people who say we're doing
a magic ritual.
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I think if there's anyone we're doing
a magic ritual for it would probably
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be Greenfield, right?
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So we're getting ready to go
and meet him for the first time.
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And really see what he thinks
about this case.
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I would love to get your opinion
on what you think was happening
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to us in Hellier. What is still happening
to us with this case.
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What do you think is going on?
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Speculation based on experience.
And that's the way I will label this.
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I think you were guided at every step
of the way
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and those steps are not concluded yet.
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I think you are being led towards
something
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if I had to guess at what it was
it was to access to a greater public
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the very things that we've been
discussing here.
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I did some of the, what people who
don't understand Qabalah
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call numerology with it,
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and the number which is a key to those
people who fancy themselves
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magicians, 93, shows up repeatedly
and with gusto.
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Along with several other suggestions that,
just the name Hellier
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contained, and it took me about 30
seconds,
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to come up with a list which I sent to you
because I felt it was very significant.
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[Greg] So according to Greenfield the
number 93 is what Hellier equals
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out to. And to him, that seemed
extremely significant.
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He typically takes funny names--
he says, "funny names"--
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and he runs them through the cipher.
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So those can be names of weird towns,
alien contactee names, things like that.
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So the first thing he does is he throws
"Hellier" into the cipher,
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and he gets the value of 93.
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Immediately that makes him perk up
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because he was a Thelemite
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and Thelemites, following
the work of Aleister Crowley,
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the number 93 is a sacred number
to them.
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It means "love" and "will", two
things that are very important
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in Crowley's system.
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He says that the name Hellier equals
out to like
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words like "Babylon" and "Christ."
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"Christ" stuck out to me immediately
because David Christie is the name
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of the guy who experienced the goblins.
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Greenfield said "Hellier" was an
extremely rich yield.
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Let's talk about that for a second
because that was one of my
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other questions. Hellier resonated
with the magical community
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in a way that none of us expected.
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We had no clue it would resonate
with them.
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We feel like they saw something in
it that maybe we didn't.
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And a lot of them have come to us
and said, sometimes in so many words
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"you guys realize you're doing an
initiation, right?"
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"you realize you're doing some
kind of a ritual?"
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As a magician, is that something
that you see happening?
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And if that's the case, who do you
think could be doing that?
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And to what purpose?
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If it is a ritual of some kind, should
we stop?
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Well my opinion is you should keep
going until you reach a point where you
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feel that it is detrimental to your
physical and emotional health,
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And that of your companions.
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Yeah, I had not thought of the term
initiation, but I think it is
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a magical process.
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Again, the Campbell thing.
The hero's return.
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The hero goes, encounters the
numinous, and
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the frightful, and then returns
the better being at some point.
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But that might be 20 years.
Or 40 years.
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Or it might be an hour and a half.
Or it might be tonight.
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I can't predict that.
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Who?
Who is behind it?
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Probably "what?" is a better question
to ask.
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And I think whatever the source
of these phenomena
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is or are, I'm not sure if it's
multiple or singular,
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it's designed I think to bring
people who are involved in it
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to a higher level of understanding
of the nature of reality.
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You mentioned earlier,
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you were initially hesitant to say
that it would have been Terry
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that had contacted us.
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I think even in the original emails
that we exchanged,
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you even said that it could be
a disinformation agent of some kind.
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-Mmhm
-And how do you feel about that now?
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I'm more inclined to think that it is
the guy that calls himself Terry R. Wriste
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and the reason that I'm inclined to think
that is because I tend to associate
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productive, path-initiating phenomena
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with authenticity. And what Terry had
to say to me,
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and hopefully what I said to him,
was as authentic as it gets.
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-Do you think Terry is still kicking?
Do you think he is still around?
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- He should be. He would be...
75.
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I would say he's almost certainly
still around. And when you got
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that letter, I'm reasonably
sure he was still around.
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I haven't heard from him in years.
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- Do you think there is a way
we could contact him?
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You look into that
in an episode
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and ask him to get in contact with you.
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But you better talk to me off camera
about having like a codeword or something.
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Because otherwise everybody and their
cousin who is a trickster...
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I mean, Gray and Jim have gone on to that
great saucer in the sky,
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but there are other tricksters out there
waiting.
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And you want to distinguish Terry
from somebody else.
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He might even tell you his name.
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I don't know, because I haven't been
involved in some of the "sports"
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that we were involved in
way back when.
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[Connor] Do you have any insight
into his sort of strange spelling,
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his seemingly intentional misspellings?
The way he writes in sort of
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that broken code?
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- It is significant, "hell," "ier."
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Let's run that through the secret
cipher of the UFOnauts.
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And we'll see. If you take it as two
separate words,
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if it yields some different results.
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That's wild guessing, and unlikely,
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but "Hell" is an interesting thing because
that was the first thing that I noticed.
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'They're going to "Hell"..."ier."'
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[Greg] Going to the underworld.
Part of the Hero's Journey, right?
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- Yep.
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[Connor laughs]
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- When we started this project
we emailed both David and Terry.
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And both of the email addresses bounced.
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They were either deactivated, or discarded
somehow.
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We got nothing back. We got the "mailer
daemon" that emails back.
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I just... this is an impressionistic thing
it's not based on anything.
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I know Terry spent some time in Canada.
I believe that was mentioned in
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one of the interviews, wasn't it?
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That he went to one of the medicine
wheels?
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[Connor] The big... medicine wheel?
Wyoming, I thought?
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- It might have been, I don't know
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but I know it was at a summer or
winter solstice.
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And we're about to hit a summer solstice.
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[Connor] Yeah. He was doing a Sirius
ritual... something something.
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- Yeah, well, he was very into that.
But so am I really.
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But it's just not something that I
obsess on, because I don't think
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Sirius, is a, well he said it himself...
it's a blue star.
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That means it's a hot, relatively
new star.
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So it's unlikely, even if you accept
extraterrestrial notions,
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it's unlikely to be a home base.
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- Well one of the interesting things about
that email address is that
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David's is still inactive but Terry's
was reactivated.
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- Same account?
- Same account.
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- It sounds like him.
It sounds like his M.O.
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And also, and this is again guessing,
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I think he wants to meet you.
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On his terms, in his time.
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He's probably gonna... you're gonna
be led to this
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or that location and he's going
to be there.
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Whether he will play games with you
or not I don't know.
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Games would be... he pumps the
gas into your car.
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And he's wearing an out of date
Sinclair uniform, or something.
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That's his type of thing.
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[Connor] this is the unedited, true
coordinates.
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And this is a more deciphered
version if that helps.
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And those are the numbers.
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[Greg] Does the number 31 hold
any significance to you?
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- Of course it does.
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I edited Frater Achad's "Liber 31."
The only authorized edition
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of it ever published.
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[Greg] What do you think of the
significance of having a "31" on
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this? I mean it's huge.
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- I think he's trying to convey
knowledge of
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magical ritual, or it's trying to
display knowledge
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of magical ritual.
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Or knowledge of me, or knowledge
of Frater Achad,
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who was Canadian.
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31 is a number also that has the
kind of magical significance
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that, it's like 93. It's one of
those numbers that
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shows up in magical patterns,
mostly in Thelemic circles.
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It has to do with 777... 31...
Liber 31, it was a book...
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Terry was a numbers cruncher.
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And also a much more technically
adroit person than I am.
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I mean, I can turn on a computer.
And as long as it works, I'm fine.
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He was familiar with what would
come to be called hacking.
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Very familiar.
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[Connor] So these numbers, right,
were sort of something that had
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crossed Greg's mind I'm sure
thousands of times now
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as we've gone through over
the last 6 or 7 years.
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One of the other things I did before
I tell you the other search
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is you break down the
numbers,
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no matter what quadrant
you split the numbers into
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they all become either 3 or 9.
- 93.
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- Which is... interesting
[Greenfield] - Hellier.
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You are adding to the credential.
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You are still set on a path, and there's
got to be some reasoning
201
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involved because there is this
type of lineal stuff.
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00:15:03,819 --> 00:15:10,949
It takes a pretty good amount
of trouble to concoct something.
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00:15:10,951 --> 00:15:16,961
Well it looks like there's a
sophisticated construct
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built on stuff that I would
understand,
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apparently you understood it.
But, I mean
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do you know that 93 is a
significant number to Thelemites?
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Which I'm not, anymore, but
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[Greg] Back then I wouldn't have,
absolutely not.
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00:15:31,180 --> 00:15:34,270
I mean that's what's always
confused me. Is this idea that
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these dumb kids with a dumb website,
"Ghost Hunters Incorporated"
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or me in particular. Like, I was
a ghost hunter.
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At the time that this stuff arrived
I had no context for any of this stuff.
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I do now.
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I've learned stuff now in the last
two years in particular
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that I never would have known.
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I'd never have any impetus
to figure out.
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- Well there's a jargon
in Thelemic circles
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that, you would have to
be in those circles.
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Because nobody writes books
about those circles.
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Those are immediately recognizable
to me, I always thought
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that it was a little goofy to do that.
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You know? It's like, Thelemites will
great each other with "93."
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[mimics] "93," "93"
"love and will"
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both add to 93 in some kind of
qabalah, not English qabalah.
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00:16:33,742 --> 00:16:37,412
- Is there something that you think
we should take a closer look at?
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00:16:37,413 --> 00:16:41,333
Because, again, we didn't really
find anything significant.
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00:16:41,333 --> 00:16:45,383
I mean, maybe they're not
GPS coordinates, but...
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- No, my guess is it's
not GPS coordinates, my guess
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is that it's a code.
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And I'm not a codebreaker,
notwithstanding what I've
231
00:16:56,974 --> 00:17:00,234
written on. And I'm perfectly
willing to take the number
232
00:17:00,227 --> 00:17:07,107
and look. I don't even think
the S-L-U-F is the pejorative
233
00:17:07,109 --> 00:17:09,109
term because there was
another pejorative term
234
00:17:09,111 --> 00:17:13,161
that is similar to that, that was
actually very commonly used
235
00:17:13,157 --> 00:17:18,077
Vietnam era. I speak from
direct knowledge.
236
00:17:18,078 --> 00:17:22,328
- So one of the things that
you talk about in Secret Cipher
237
00:17:22,332 --> 00:17:26,752
is Terry discusses meeting
Indrid Cold.
238
00:17:26,754 --> 00:17:31,884
He said that he used the cipher
to find clues.
239
00:17:31,884 --> 00:17:34,264
To find out where Indrid was
living at the time.
240
00:17:34,261 --> 00:17:35,301
And he described him.
241
00:17:35,679 --> 00:17:38,269
Do you know the name of
the town where that happened?
242
00:17:38,515 --> 00:17:40,675
Because I know he didn't want
to talk about it...
243
00:17:41,185 --> 00:17:43,645
- I'm going to embarrass myself
here.
244
00:17:44,313 --> 00:17:46,233
I was told, I don't remember.
245
00:17:46,732 --> 00:17:52,152
I do remember that it was
on the, on the Ohio river.
246
00:17:52,154 --> 00:17:58,374
Further South than the, for lack
of a better term, mothman area,
247
00:17:58,368 --> 00:18:00,538
south of Point Pleasant.
248
00:18:00,537 --> 00:18:03,787
But I don't remember the name
of the town. It was a little town.
249
00:18:04,917 --> 00:18:07,247
[Greg] The name of the town
was Ashland.
250
00:18:07,252 --> 00:18:09,302
Does that sound familiar?
- Yes.
251
00:18:12,299 --> 00:18:18,179
- Can you show me on a map?
I mean I wouldn't swear by it because...
252
00:18:19,306 --> 00:18:22,676
[Karl] Do you know or remember
the general kind of timeframe
253
00:18:23,310 --> 00:18:25,560
that Terry might have been
pursuing these
254
00:18:25,562 --> 00:18:27,692
mothman connections
in cipher 6?
255
00:18:27,689 --> 00:18:34,659
It would have to be after
the encounter with the guy
256
00:18:34,655 --> 00:18:39,615
that wrote that kind of crazy book.
[laughs]
257
00:18:40,369 --> 00:18:44,289
[Karl] but when you talked to him
in what '94 or whatever, you
258
00:18:44,289 --> 00:18:46,669
didn't get the impression that
it was super recent to that?
259
00:18:46,667 --> 00:18:49,457
Or particularly long before that?
- Oh no, no.
260
00:18:50,295 --> 00:18:51,915
I had the impression that it
was
261
00:18:57,344 --> 00:19:01,434
long before that.
Long before I had any
262
00:19:01,431 --> 00:19:04,231
involvement with Terry.
263
00:19:04,226 --> 00:19:08,686
Probably in the late 60's,
early 70's.
264
00:19:08,689 --> 00:19:11,189
That's a guess, I didn't ask.
265
00:19:11,733 --> 00:19:15,903
Again, getting him to sit down
for a couple of interviews
266
00:19:15,904 --> 00:19:19,954
was major coup. Because he
was not the interview type.
267
00:19:20,617 --> 00:19:22,997
I didn't want to put words in
Greenfield's mouth.
268
00:19:22,995 --> 00:19:25,865
But for him to say the late 60's
or early 70's,
269
00:19:26,248 --> 00:19:29,248
Definitely seemed to match. The
60's doesn't really make too much
270
00:19:29,251 --> 00:19:31,961
sense, the mothman story was
still happening, Vietnam was
271
00:19:31,962 --> 00:19:35,762
still happening, but the 70's
pegs everything.
272
00:19:35,966 --> 00:19:38,386
Woody Derenberger's book came
out in '71,
273
00:19:38,385 --> 00:19:41,045
The Mothman Prophecies came
out in '75.
274
00:19:41,471 --> 00:19:46,771
Cipher 6 was broken by the occult
community in 1974, allowing them
275
00:19:46,768 --> 00:19:49,978
to apply the secret cipher of the
UFOnauts that Greenfield
276
00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:55,280
theorizes about. And the Wagon
Wheel Restaurant was open from '74 to '78.
277
00:19:55,277 --> 00:20:00,197
So for Greenfield to say the '70's, that's
very specifically the window that we
278
00:20:00,199 --> 00:20:01,739
were looking at with Terry.
279
00:20:02,034 --> 00:20:07,084
[Greg[ What would you say to someone
who said, "well it's obvious:
280
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:08,960
Allen Greenfield
is Terry Wriste."?
281
00:20:09,041 --> 00:20:10,831
- No, that's nonsense.
282
00:20:12,836 --> 00:20:18,296
Part of the... that got
a lot of publicity because
283
00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:21,090
of the name, at the very beginning.
284
00:20:21,094 --> 00:20:25,934
But I mean people around here
knew him. I can refer you to -
285
00:20:25,933 --> 00:20:28,443
well I don't know if they'd talk
to you because they're all political
286
00:20:28,435 --> 00:20:32,145
people, most of them no
longer active in that kind of
287
00:20:32,147 --> 00:20:36,527
circle and caring to do that.
But it wasn't like I knew him
288
00:20:36,526 --> 00:20:40,316
privately away from these other
people, it was a whole affinity group
289
00:20:40,322 --> 00:20:42,622
that he was known by.
290
00:20:42,824 --> 00:20:45,994
And if he were me, then he lived
a much more adventurous life
291
00:20:45,994 --> 00:20:47,874
than I've lived.
[laughs]
292
00:20:48,038 --> 00:20:51,748
[Greg] I went into that interview
thinking that Allen Greenfield
293
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:54,040
could very well be Terry Wriste.
294
00:20:54,628 --> 00:20:59,088
I did not feel that way when we left.
I just didn't see it.
295
00:20:59,758 --> 00:21:03,848
Going into the meeting I was half
convinced that we were about
296
00:21:03,845 --> 00:21:05,135
to meet Terry Wriste.
297
00:21:05,514 --> 00:21:11,944
That it's an individual Greenfield
created himself, and sort of pretended
298
00:21:11,937 --> 00:21:15,017
to have an interview with himself
in the back of his book,
299
00:21:15,565 --> 00:21:19,815
so that he could get out some
information more about his footwork
300
00:21:19,820 --> 00:21:20,820
that he has been doing.
301
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,290
But after the interview, and after
we had done research
302
00:21:26,285 --> 00:21:27,785
on things like Ashland,
303
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:32,710
it's pretty clear to me that Terry
is a separate individual.
304
00:21:33,583 --> 00:21:35,963
Greenfield pointed something out.
305
00:21:36,378 --> 00:21:41,338
That brought us back to some of the
information that Terry was talking about.
306
00:21:42,009 --> 00:21:45,849
Where's he's saying that he believes that
this case is being guided
307
00:21:45,846 --> 00:21:48,926
by the Secret Chiefs of the Third Order.
308
00:21:49,433 --> 00:21:53,313
The Third Order is supposed to be
totally benevolent and like that
309
00:21:53,312 --> 00:21:59,482
although they can be pretty severe.
You, if I had to guess,
310
00:21:59,484 --> 00:22:02,074
I would guess you're being guided
by the Third Order.
311
00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:09,412
It's a term out of the AA / Golden Dawn
universe.
312
00:22:09,411 --> 00:22:13,251
[Connor] Given what you know of the
Third Order, if that hypothesis, which I
313
00:22:13,248 --> 00:22:18,208
think is interesting... it hadn't really
directly crossed my mind, what would
314
00:22:18,211 --> 00:22:23,801
the motivation of the Third Order be
in guiding us on documenting this case?
315
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,260
- To have a series of initiations.
316
00:22:30,223 --> 00:22:34,353
And an initiation is the following:
317
00:22:34,353 --> 00:22:42,113
it is the creation of a crisis, and the
resolution of a crisis,
318
00:22:42,110 --> 00:22:48,410
and the assimilation of that crisis
resolution dialectic.
319
00:22:48,408 --> 00:22:54,288
What I think very strongly is that if
you continue to do what you're doing,
320
00:22:54,289 --> 00:22:56,579
things will fall in your path.
321
00:22:56,583 --> 00:23:02,213
[Greg] One of the biggest goals I think
of this season is trying to contact
322
00:23:02,214 --> 00:23:06,344
extraterrestrials, or ultraterrestrials
for a better term,
323
00:23:07,135 --> 00:23:10,425
would you recommend it? Is that
a wise thing to try and attempt?
324
00:23:10,430 --> 00:23:17,310
- You seem to have a freak-out level
that's just over the horizon.
325
00:23:17,312 --> 00:23:24,572
and nothing can freak you out
more than that kind of
326
00:23:24,569 --> 00:23:27,069
contact because it's never
what you expect.
327
00:23:30,158 --> 00:23:32,158
[Sound of VCR starting up]
328
00:23:36,123 --> 00:23:38,883
[Greg] About six years ago I
got this idea.
329
00:23:39,751 --> 00:23:43,961
Whether it's a good idea or
a bad idea you can tell me.
330
00:23:46,049 --> 00:23:50,679
That we might be able to
instigate an alien abduction.
331
00:23:50,679 --> 00:23:53,969
It worked in an interesting way.
332
00:23:53,974 --> 00:23:59,654
I've felt now for the last few years
that there's a nonphysical aspect
333
00:23:59,646 --> 00:24:01,186
to abduction experiences.
334
00:24:01,189 --> 00:24:03,479
Is that something that you think
would be accurate?
335
00:24:03,483 --> 00:24:04,363
- Oh yeah.
336
00:24:04,526 --> 00:24:10,446
I think that there's a place that people
go, that their body can still be here
337
00:24:10,449 --> 00:24:13,489
but on some other place on some
other plane, they're going through
338
00:24:13,493 --> 00:24:14,243
something.
339
00:24:14,244 --> 00:24:16,664
They're meeting somebody they're
having some sort of an experience
340
00:24:16,663 --> 00:24:19,373
that is just as real as anything that
is in this room.
341
00:24:20,750 --> 00:24:28,180
So we thought, what if we do the
reverse of a regression session.
342
00:24:28,175 --> 00:24:31,885
What if we instead put this idea
in someone's head
343
00:24:31,887 --> 00:24:33,347
via hypnotism
344
00:24:33,346 --> 00:24:36,676
that they're going to go somewhere
and meet someone.
345
00:24:36,683 --> 00:24:40,023
And see what happens.
346
00:24:41,104 --> 00:24:47,074
We did that. There were no leading
phrases other than
347
00:24:47,068 --> 00:24:52,278
"there's a light in the sky, it's in a form
you've never seen exist before,
348
00:24:52,282 --> 00:24:55,332
and you know that you're going to be
taken on that light."
349
00:24:56,536 --> 00:24:59,116
It was one of the scariest things I've
ever seen.
350
00:24:59,122 --> 00:25:02,542
I watched this guy, sit there, friend of
mine. Wasn't supposed to be the guy
351
00:25:02,542 --> 00:25:05,962
who was supposed to go, it just
happened to be him,
352
00:25:06,796 --> 00:25:11,926
and he just went somewhere else
and recounted this entire experience.
353
00:25:12,802 --> 00:25:15,972
[Jason] and now all of a sudden...
I expected Nick to get picked
354
00:25:15,972 --> 00:25:17,682
honestly, and now...
[Lonnie] why do you feel nervous?
355
00:25:17,682 --> 00:25:23,402
- I don't know. My mind... I feel
I don't know. Vulnerable.
356
00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:25,476
[Dana] Yeah, I know I totally
understand that.
357
00:25:25,482 --> 00:25:26,732
[Jason] vulnerable. That's
what it was.
358
00:25:27,192 --> 00:25:30,072
[Lonnie] you are absolutely in
control of yourself throughout
359
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:31,110
this entire process.
360
00:25:31,112 --> 00:25:32,162
I cannot control you.
361
00:25:32,155 --> 00:25:35,115
Any suggestion that is given,
you may freely reject.
362
00:25:35,367 --> 00:25:37,867
I wouldn't give you a suggestion
that I wouldn't find helpful
363
00:25:37,869 --> 00:25:39,369
or meaningful for the process.
364
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,920
- Ok.
[Lonnie} Ok.
365
00:25:42,499 --> 00:25:44,879
Are you willing to go?
- Yeah.
366
00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:46,546
-Outstanding.
367
00:25:47,128 --> 00:25:48,798
It's good to have you.
-Thanks!
368
00:25:48,797 --> 00:25:49,587
Look at your hand.
369
00:25:49,589 --> 00:25:52,259
Look at a spot on your hand.
Look at the lines on your hand.
370
00:25:52,259 --> 00:25:53,639
As your hand draws nearer and
371
00:25:53,635 --> 00:25:56,295
nearer to your face, go ahead and
focus on your eyes and as you
372
00:25:56,304 --> 00:25:58,894
focus on your eyes, allow your
eyes to close.
373
00:25:59,224 --> 00:26:04,404
And as you close your eyes,
close your eyes.
374
00:26:04,396 --> 00:26:07,146
Let your head sink forward.
375
00:26:07,148 --> 00:26:10,568
And drift. You can ignore the
environment around,
376
00:26:10,569 --> 00:26:13,569
as you go ahead and drift
and relax.
377
00:26:13,572 --> 00:26:16,032
Relax in spite of all of the
environment.
378
00:26:16,449 --> 00:26:19,449
Focus on my voice and only
my voice.
379
00:26:19,452 --> 00:26:21,752
As you allow yourself
to relax.
380
00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:27,248
Imagine you see some
strange lights on the horizon.
381
00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:33,511
Lights that you can't identify
as a plane or helicopter.
382
00:26:34,926 --> 00:26:37,466
Or anything that you've ever
seen before.
383
00:26:38,013 --> 00:26:41,473
In a pattern in which you
didn't think was possible to fly.
384
00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:43,640
How many lights are there?
385
00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:48,860
[Jason] Four.
386
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,280
- Notice those lights coming
closer and closer.
387
00:26:54,988 --> 00:26:57,778
That light comes closer
and closer to the group.
388
00:26:58,241 --> 00:27:01,161
You know something
is about to happen.
389
00:27:02,787 --> 00:27:09,087
Something that you may not have
even thought possible before.
390
00:27:09,669 --> 00:27:13,509
But it becomes clear that this
group is going to be taken.
391
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:19,599
Could you describe what happens?
392
00:27:21,598 --> 00:27:28,018
- We're just... the doors. There's
like a door.
393
00:27:31,483 --> 00:27:34,073
There's like a light coming out
from the inside of it.
394
00:27:34,069 --> 00:27:38,109
[Stammering]
I don't want to go in, but...
395
00:27:38,114 --> 00:27:41,914
everybody else is going.
396
00:27:42,744 --> 00:27:46,794
It's really bright? Um.
397
00:27:46,790 --> 00:27:52,500
I... I don't. I feel like I should be
telling people we shouldn't do this
398
00:27:52,504 --> 00:27:54,594
but nobody is listening.
399
00:27:57,592 --> 00:28:00,932
The light is almost blinding...
like it's hurting my eyes.
400
00:28:02,430 --> 00:28:07,390
And I can't really see anything...
I know that there's metal below but
401
00:28:08,436 --> 00:28:13,186
I don't... wa... like I don't want to go
forward but nobody is stopping.
402
00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:17,200
- Is it still just you in the group or are
there other things there?
403
00:28:17,195 --> 00:28:20,945
- No it's just the group. We're in a
single file.
404
00:28:20,949 --> 00:28:23,829
And we're just walking.
405
00:28:24,202 --> 00:28:29,332
Down this hallway. And like I said
there's nothing... it's very bright.
406
00:28:29,332 --> 00:28:33,292
we're just, single file, walking.
407
00:28:34,212 --> 00:28:37,882
- Do you feel compelled to move
forward or is someone guiding you?
408
00:28:38,216 --> 00:28:42,096
- I don't... I feel like I have to move
forward I don't want to.
409
00:28:42,095 --> 00:28:45,385
I want to go back outside.
410
00:28:45,390 --> 00:28:48,310
- Do you feel like you can turn around?
411
00:28:48,309 --> 00:28:54,019
Try to turn around now. What happens?
412
00:28:54,315 --> 00:28:56,685
- I can't.
- You can't.
413
00:28:57,694 --> 00:29:00,414
Do you feel safe?
414
00:29:00,405 --> 00:29:04,615
- I don't know. Like I don't
know what's happening.
415
00:29:04,993 --> 00:29:09,583
- Jason I'm going to grab your arm.
And hold it up.
416
00:29:09,581 --> 00:29:12,711
I'll be grabbing you at the wrist.
So just relax.
417
00:29:12,709 --> 00:29:14,959
I'm grabbing you now.
418
00:29:14,961 --> 00:29:17,551
Put the arm up here and leave it there.
419
00:29:17,547 --> 00:29:27,427
Allow that arm to drop only as slowly
or as quickly as time passes on that ship.
420
00:29:27,432 --> 00:29:31,772
As those memories assimilate
into your mind.
421
00:29:31,770 --> 00:29:35,400
Of what that group has experienced.
422
00:29:35,398 --> 00:29:43,108
And as time passes by your arm will
slowly or quickly sink to your lap.
423
00:29:43,114 --> 00:29:47,794
As you acquire whatever experience
that is.
424
00:29:47,786 --> 00:29:50,786
You'll be able to relate that experience
back to us.
425
00:29:52,373 --> 00:29:54,633
Very good.
426
00:29:55,084 --> 00:29:58,634
Now the group is back in that same
place outside.
427
00:29:58,630 --> 00:30:02,680
A little unrattled. Take a look at your
watch.
428
00:30:02,842 --> 00:30:06,852
Or your phone, or whatever
time it is. What day is it?
429
00:30:07,806 --> 00:30:08,926
- Sunday.
430
00:30:08,932 --> 00:30:11,272
- And what day do you remember
going there?
431
00:30:12,101 --> 00:30:13,481
- Thursday?
432
00:30:15,188 --> 00:30:16,978
- Is it still nighttime?
Or daytime?
433
00:30:17,357 --> 00:30:18,357
- It's daytime.
434
00:30:18,358 --> 00:30:21,148
- Take a look at your group,
is everyone there?
435
00:30:24,405 --> 00:30:26,365
- There's a girl missing.
436
00:30:28,034 --> 00:30:29,204
- Do you know the girl?
437
00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:31,957
- No.
438
00:30:34,165 --> 00:30:36,665
- Does anyone else realize
that someone is missing?
439
00:30:38,461 --> 00:30:39,881
- No.
440
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,920
Everybody seems really confused.
441
00:30:45,718 --> 00:30:52,228
Confused. I don't... really remember
a lot and my head feels weird.
442
00:30:52,892 --> 00:30:58,652
- Your head feels weird? That's because
there is a wall that may have been built.
443
00:31:00,358 --> 00:31:04,778
We can take a peek behind that wall
if you'd like to see.
444
00:31:05,154 --> 00:31:06,874
- Is it safe?
445
00:31:06,865 --> 00:31:08,195
- It's safe.
446
00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:11,696
- I guess so.
447
00:31:12,370 --> 00:31:13,960
- What's behind the wall, Jason?
448
00:31:16,124 --> 00:31:18,634
- It's more of that hallway.
449
00:31:19,586 --> 00:31:24,046
- More of that hallway?
Could we fast forward to
450
00:31:24,841 --> 00:31:26,801
something more specific?
451
00:31:28,011 --> 00:31:31,471
- There's a lot of conveyor belts
and we're just standing on them.
452
00:31:31,472 --> 00:31:34,682
And we're being moved around like cattle.
453
00:31:35,393 --> 00:31:39,943
-Are you seeing anything yet? Anything
other than your fellow group members?
454
00:31:40,189 --> 00:31:42,779
- There are a lot of machines in this
room.
455
00:31:44,485 --> 00:31:46,855
But nothing I recognize.
456
00:31:48,448 --> 00:31:51,488
There's some... I think there's somebody
behind
457
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,830
It's like a shallow... like a thin wall.
458
00:31:55,580 --> 00:31:59,170
It's lit up but all I can see is shadows.
459
00:32:00,835 --> 00:32:07,625
And they're... they're moving around but
I can't see any- what they are or who
460
00:32:07,634 --> 00:32:08,434
they are.
461
00:32:09,969 --> 00:32:15,059
- At any point in any of these memories
can you see
462
00:32:15,058 --> 00:32:17,438
who they are?
463
00:32:18,603 --> 00:32:20,153
- Yes
464
00:32:20,521 --> 00:32:22,731
- What do they look like?
465
00:32:23,816 --> 00:32:26,776
- They're very pale.
466
00:32:28,237 --> 00:32:29,487
They look sickly.
467
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,620
But they don't seem... they're not
acting sick?
468
00:32:37,497 --> 00:32:41,077
They're very quick moving.
Very fluid.
469
00:32:42,377 --> 00:32:43,377
Um
470
00:32:44,253 --> 00:32:48,383
Kind of like when an octopus moves it's
tentacles the motion is very much the same
471
00:32:48,424 --> 00:32:50,474
I don't think they have bones.
472
00:32:53,388 --> 00:32:56,638
- Have they done anything to anyone
in the group?
473
00:32:57,392 --> 00:33:03,772
- Yeah, uh there are people on tables
but I don't... I can't... they've got
474
00:33:03,773 --> 00:33:07,573
I can see people's faces but I can't
see what they're doing to their bodies.
475
00:33:14,409 --> 00:33:19,329
I'm worried they're going to come to me.
I don't want this to happen.
476
00:33:19,872 --> 00:33:22,922
- Jason. "Grandpa."
477
00:33:25,878 --> 00:33:30,128
On the count of five I'll have you open
your eyes and reorient to the room.
478
00:33:31,259 --> 00:33:32,839
One
479
00:33:34,721 --> 00:33:38,221
We're starting to notice our limbs
a little bit more.
480
00:33:38,766 --> 00:33:39,726
Two
481
00:33:40,810 --> 00:33:44,360
Knowing that anything that happens,
you can handle it.
482
00:33:44,981 --> 00:33:48,281
It's just a matter of perspective.
483
00:33:48,818 --> 00:33:49,818
Three
484
00:33:51,237 --> 00:33:58,747
You're feeling free, and grateful
that you've had this experience.
485
00:33:59,746 --> 00:34:01,116
Four
486
00:34:01,539 --> 00:34:05,839
Knowing that it was nice to
experience Grandpa, right?
487
00:34:06,085 --> 00:34:07,455
And five
488
00:34:10,298 --> 00:34:12,128
Welcome back.
489
00:34:16,054 --> 00:34:17,604
[sniffs]
490
00:34:19,265 --> 00:34:22,475
How do you feel?
491
00:34:29,025 --> 00:34:32,445
[Greg] We interviewed him
beforehand, he did not
492
00:34:32,445 --> 00:34:34,275
believe in extraterrestrials, he
didn't believe in any of that
493
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:35,820
type of stuff.
494
00:34:35,823 --> 00:34:39,873
We interviewed him years later,
not only does he not remember
495
00:34:39,869 --> 00:34:43,999
the experience, but he's developed
an intense fear of extraterrestrials
496
00:34:43,998 --> 00:34:45,788
and absolutely believes that they exist.
497
00:34:46,417 --> 00:34:49,497
[Greenfield] I'm sure you've thought of
"maybe he actually already had
498
00:34:49,504 --> 00:34:51,804
an experience?"
- Yeah, I mean that has gone
499
00:34:51,798 --> 00:34:52,918
through my head too.
500
00:34:53,883 --> 00:34:56,093
What do you think of that as an
experiment?
501
00:34:56,094 --> 00:35:00,974
Do you think that there's... so say
he was not an experiencer previously.
502
00:35:02,016 --> 00:35:03,636
What do you think happened to him?
503
00:35:06,104 --> 00:35:12,824
- Well, there are two fundamental
possibilities.
504
00:35:13,069 --> 00:35:19,029
If it was not a physical experience,
505
00:35:20,326 --> 00:35:25,156
then that tends to add credence to
the notion that these experiences
506
00:35:25,164 --> 00:35:28,294
can be induced
507
00:35:28,292 --> 00:35:33,592
by a perfectly ordinary, sinister,
508
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:37,889
insensitive, cruel human being
into another.
509
00:35:37,885 --> 00:35:41,255
Am I giving you the impression that
I think this is unethical?
510
00:35:41,264 --> 00:35:43,274
-Yeah, yeah.
-Yeah, I think it is.
511
00:35:43,266 --> 00:35:49,396
The other, the other possibility is
you tuned him in.
512
00:35:50,022 --> 00:35:54,362
Either of those could be true.
Both of them cannot be true.
513
00:35:56,612 --> 00:36:02,452
You would have to have something
within the experience that would validate
514
00:36:02,451 --> 00:36:06,041
one or the another. Like a word.
515
00:36:06,789 --> 00:36:10,129
[mimicking a session]
"I want you to obtain a word for me."
516
00:36:10,126 --> 00:36:11,786
"They can't speak."
517
00:36:11,794 --> 00:36:18,384
"But you can imagine a word that..."
Do you follow me?
518
00:36:18,384 --> 00:36:21,104
And then you run it through code again,
you know?
519
00:36:21,095 --> 00:36:24,555
[Greg] That is kind of the idea
that our heads are in now.
520
00:36:24,557 --> 00:36:27,637
Is to try that again, but with something
like that.
521
00:36:27,643 --> 00:36:31,113
To bring something back that can
validate the experience.
522
00:36:32,106 --> 00:36:38,106
That's something that I think we're
all interested in trying and seeing.
523
00:36:38,112 --> 00:36:39,862
Do you think that is a smart idea?
524
00:36:40,281 --> 00:36:42,661
- I think it's a useful idea.
525
00:36:43,618 --> 00:36:47,078
Yeah you need one validating
element at least.
526
00:36:47,663 --> 00:36:52,843
That tells you this is
an objectively real experience
527
00:36:52,835 --> 00:36:56,165
that he is experiencing subjectively
here and now.
528
00:36:56,172 --> 00:37:03,352
- Do you have anything to say
to the larger Hellier audience?
529
00:37:03,346 --> 00:37:06,846
Is there anything that you wanted
to get out there?
530
00:37:08,476 --> 00:37:10,806
- Don't try this at home.
531
00:37:12,313 --> 00:37:15,903
And then after the interview we
got around to talking about
532
00:37:16,525 --> 00:37:18,025
the balloons.
533
00:37:18,903 --> 00:37:21,113
When Strand went to the coordinates
534
00:37:21,113 --> 00:37:26,043
and didn't find anything there, the
only thing that was in the spot was
535
00:37:26,035 --> 00:37:29,115
this old "Happy Birthday" balloon.
536
00:37:30,122 --> 00:37:33,882
And it was significant enough that
Strand put it in his backpack
537
00:37:33,876 --> 00:37:35,036
to take it with him.
538
00:37:35,419 --> 00:37:37,629
And we just thought
"well that's weird."
539
00:37:38,130 --> 00:37:40,880
A year from that date, a friend
of mine
540
00:37:40,883 --> 00:37:43,683
who I haven't seen in years and
years and years and years
541
00:37:43,678 --> 00:37:46,218
we're at a bar in California.
542
00:37:46,222 --> 00:37:49,352
I'm sitting there talking to him
and I tell him about... he's like "what
543
00:37:49,350 --> 00:37:52,400
did you guys find at the coordinates?
You went to the coordinates right?
544
00:37:52,395 --> 00:37:53,305
What did you find?
545
00:37:54,272 --> 00:37:56,442
And I said "well it's weird the only
thing that we found at the coordinates
546
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,570
was a deflated Happy Birthday balloon.
547
00:37:58,567 --> 00:38:02,777
And the dude started to shake. And he was
like "oh my God" he's like no no no no
548
00:38:02,780 --> 00:38:04,660
and he pulls his phone out and he
shows me this video.
549
00:38:10,913 --> 00:38:14,173
♪ pulsating beats ♪
550
00:38:30,391 --> 00:38:35,691
[Greg] He finds, he's walking, hiking
through this forested area, this hill,
551
00:38:35,688 --> 00:38:39,398
and this silver balloon
floats down to him.
552
00:38:49,618 --> 00:38:52,198
No idea where it comes from,
happens on the exact same date,
553
00:38:52,204 --> 00:38:54,544
and he's like "I was supposed
to tell you that."
554
00:38:54,540 --> 00:38:57,000
"Something happened. I'm
supposed to tell you something."
555
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,840
"What that is, I don't know."
556
00:39:00,838 --> 00:39:03,668
Alex was convinced, he's like
there's something weird about this
557
00:39:03,674 --> 00:39:07,434
he's like "you don't even understand"
and he flips to his notebook and he shows
558
00:39:07,428 --> 00:39:09,638
me "Ask Greg and Dana about balloon."
559
00:39:10,014 --> 00:39:12,184
"Significance of balloon?"
560
00:39:12,558 --> 00:39:16,348
And he's like "man, I think I was
supposed to show this to you."
561
00:39:16,354 --> 00:39:20,864
"This is a sign. You're supposed to take
these balloons seriously."
562
00:39:21,442 --> 00:39:24,572
- Oh, I give you the message again.
563
00:39:24,570 --> 00:39:25,780
You're being guided.
564
00:39:25,780 --> 00:39:29,660
There may be nothing more to it.
It may be somebody's birthday,
565
00:39:29,658 --> 00:39:31,038
that's significant.
566
00:39:31,327 --> 00:39:35,327
- Running the numbers later,
I had told Greenfield that
567
00:39:35,331 --> 00:39:39,461
the balloons happened on the same exact
date. I was like a day or two off.
568
00:39:40,503 --> 00:39:45,843
But this particular part of February
was starting to show a pattern.
569
00:39:46,175 --> 00:39:50,135
That was shaping up over a span
of years.
570
00:39:50,137 --> 00:39:55,387
This patch of dates in February seemed
important, because
571
00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:58,773
the Wriste emails came in,
in this time period.
572
00:39:58,771 --> 00:40:01,071
The Amy emails came in
in this time period.
573
00:40:01,065 --> 00:40:04,525
And both of the balloons showed up
during this time period.
574
00:40:05,528 --> 00:40:09,868
I mean, you're following a trail in the
woods because there are marks on trees.
575
00:40:09,865 --> 00:40:12,865
Funny marks on trees.
576
00:40:14,370 --> 00:40:18,620
Where it's leading, to a pot of gold,
or to a -
577
00:40:18,624 --> 00:40:20,254
[Greg] A grizzly death?
578
00:40:20,251 --> 00:40:21,841
[laughs]
- yes, a grizzly death.
579
00:40:21,836 --> 00:40:24,706
that was not what I was thinking.
[Greg laughs]
580
00:40:24,713 --> 00:40:30,973
Or a nuclear power plant, or a
subterranean tunnel where
581
00:40:30,970 --> 00:40:37,480
aliens and humans are interacting and
interacting in a very familiar pattern
582
00:40:37,476 --> 00:40:43,266
or... you don't know! But if you don't
follow the path,
583
00:40:43,274 --> 00:40:46,574
if you ask "who chipped away at
these trees?"
584
00:40:46,569 --> 00:40:52,279
you're missing the point. The point has
got to be that the path leads somewhere.
585
00:40:56,078 --> 00:40:57,748
[Greenfield] This is a gift to you.
586
00:40:57,746 --> 00:41:02,286
You're on the path, because if you weren't
you wouldn't have these two,
587
00:41:02,293 --> 00:41:06,013
this synchronicity. Every synchronicitytells you you're on the path.
588
00:41:06,005 --> 00:41:11,085
If the synchronicities stop, or if they
become vague, then you're off the path.
589
00:41:14,180 --> 00:41:18,390
[Greg] On the way back from Atlanta,
I realized that Somerset
590
00:41:18,392 --> 00:41:21,152
was only like half an hour out of the way.
591
00:41:21,145 --> 00:41:23,055
On our drive back to Cincinnati.
592
00:41:23,355 --> 00:41:28,815
So I suggested, if the idea is we're
going to go there anyway, let's just go
593
00:41:28,819 --> 00:41:30,859
I'll show Karl and Connor the sights.
594
00:41:30,863 --> 00:41:33,703
I'll show them where Strand and I had
scoped out.
595
00:41:33,699 --> 00:41:37,449
So we're driving down one of these
back roads. Middle of nowhere.
596
00:41:38,412 --> 00:41:40,922
One lane dirt road.
597
00:41:40,915 --> 00:41:44,785
There's really nowhere to go or
turn around on these roads.
598
00:41:45,503 --> 00:41:50,223
And we have to stop.
599
00:41:50,216 --> 00:41:53,256
Because there's literally a tree
600
00:41:53,260 --> 00:41:56,640
laying over the road. We can't go
anywhere.
601
00:42:06,106 --> 00:42:09,606
[Connor] And the way that it
crossed the road so perfectly,
602
00:42:09,610 --> 00:42:13,410
and just covered the road
felt so intentional
603
00:42:13,405 --> 00:42:15,565
to get our car to stop.
604
00:42:16,450 --> 00:42:20,660
So Connor and I get out
of the van.
605
00:42:20,663 --> 00:42:24,583
And we walk over to see
if we can move this tree.
606
00:42:24,583 --> 00:42:29,923
And as we are looking at this
tree, we see a glinting
607
00:42:29,922 --> 00:42:32,592
at the base. And I said
608
00:42:32,591 --> 00:42:35,261
"don't tell me that's what I
think it is."
609
00:42:35,886 --> 00:42:37,756
It literally stopped us in our tracks
610
00:42:37,763 --> 00:42:39,143
to find a balloon.
611
00:42:39,139 --> 00:42:42,479
[Karl] goddamn it.
- What are the chances?
612
00:42:56,156 --> 00:42:57,906
[distant howl]
613
00:42:58,534 --> 00:42:59,874
[Karl] What is that?
614
00:43:01,704 --> 00:43:03,084
[car keys jingle]
615
00:43:23,851 --> 00:43:25,851
[Karl] Get out of here, man.
616
00:43:33,819 --> 00:43:36,909
[Karl] Were you hearing shit?
[Greg] Did you not hear that?
617
00:43:36,905 --> 00:43:40,325
- Well we turned the car off.
Was it musical?
618
00:43:40,326 --> 00:43:42,196
[Connor] It sounded musical.
Or was it a cow?
619
00:43:42,202 --> 00:43:43,582
- It was like a howl.
620
00:44:12,399 --> 00:44:14,939
[Karl] Did you guys notice...
621
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,530
- How did this become a thing?
- I don't know.
622
00:44:21,533 --> 00:44:24,083
[Karl] After Greenfield wouldn't
shut up about it?
623
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:35,010
[Greenfield] What I think very strongly
is that if you continue to do
624
00:44:35,005 --> 00:44:38,505
what you're doing, things will fall
in your path.
625
00:44:39,259 --> 00:44:43,389
You didn't seem to be really impressed
by the two fucking balloons!
626
00:44:43,389 --> 00:44:47,769
And I'm really, really, that's like
ding ding ding [alarm bell sounds]
627
00:44:47,768 --> 00:44:51,518
everything with that because
this is a gift.
628
00:44:51,980 --> 00:44:54,980
What do you get with the balloon?
You get a present.
629
00:44:54,983 --> 00:44:59,913
A present. And the two balloons,
is a present.
630
00:44:59,905 --> 00:45:05,575
It's saying, same day, something about
this day is a birthday present
631
00:45:05,577 --> 00:45:07,827
to you, don't throw it away.
632
00:45:08,330 --> 00:45:10,210
[Connor] It's a balloon!
633
00:45:10,582 --> 00:45:13,212
[Karl] Of all the things
for Greenfield to focus on.
634
00:45:13,210 --> 00:45:14,210
[Greg] I know.
635
00:45:15,421 --> 00:45:20,301
[Connor] Greenfield brought that up
on his own like four times.
636
00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:23,260
[Greg] "How do you not think that's
a bigger deal?"
637
00:45:23,262 --> 00:45:24,972
[Connor] "Why don't you think the
balloon is a big deal?"
638
00:45:24,972 --> 00:45:26,852
"Seems like a pretty significant sign."
639
00:45:28,142 --> 00:45:31,812
- Something blocked our path
to show us a balloon.
640
00:45:31,812 --> 00:45:34,982
To make us pay attention to a balloon.
641
00:45:34,982 --> 00:45:37,902
I mean, what's the context of finding
it on a blocked path?
642
00:45:37,901 --> 00:45:40,701
[Connor] It's a star.
- It's a star?
643
00:45:40,696 --> 00:45:43,236
- Yeah.
[Karl] This is blue star?
644
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:44,620
-Blue Star!
645
00:45:44,616 --> 00:45:46,986
Well, Happy Birthday.
646
00:45:50,706 --> 00:46:00,126
♪ Opera in the Whale
By Before the Bulb ♪
53460
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