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This programme contains strong
language from the start,
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00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:16,040
and scenes which some viewers
may find disturbing.
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00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,080
Right, Holly. Shall we start again?
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00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:24,680
From the beginning.
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'At me mates', there's no-one
standing at the window
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'waiting to kick off.'
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If you like it so much,
why don't you go live there, then?!
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00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,920
When are you going to let me
have sex with you? No... No...
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'Don't let them kiss you.'
Get off me!
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I don't take my top off, or nothing.
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'You're not safe.
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00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,080
'He's going to kill you.'
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Tell me everything
you want the police to know.
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Like who?
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00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,760
I don't know what they're
going to do to us. Who?
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The men.
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They do nothing to us.
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You come back home with us,
and we'll sort this. I promise you.
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00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:09,680
We'll sort it.
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Advertise your product or brand here
contact www.SubtitleDB.org today
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You were saying,
about Tariq and Amber...
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Tariq started taking us places.
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00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,800
He started picking us up and...
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..Amber thought
that he was her boyfriend.
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00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:44,440
So, what did you think was going on
when he picked you up?
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00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,920
I didn't actually know
he was taking us to have sex.
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00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,160
I don't know if she did, but...
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00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,000
So, what did you think
was going to happen?
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00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:01,520
I don't know.
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00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,240
What do you want?
Is Amber Bowen at this address?
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Amber!
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00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:25,960
Why, what do you want her for?
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00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:28,960
Hmm?
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00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:32,960
Amber Bowen?
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00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:34,120
Yeah.
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00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,720
We're arresting you on suspicion
of inciting girls to prostitution.
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00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:40,680
Doing what?
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00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:44,960
She's 15. 15- in a cell!
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00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,380
She's being interviewed now.
What for? What for?!
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She's got a solicitor with her.
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I'm her mum!
I should be in there with her.
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I know me fucking rights!
Look, you can either wait here
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00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,120
or we'll call you
when it's concluded. She's 15!
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00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:12,560
Are you arranging for girls
to have sex with men?
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00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,120
No comment.
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00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,480
Are you taking money
while other girls have sex with men?
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No comment.
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00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,360
Are you a madam, Amber?
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No comment.
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Your mum's outside having a fag.
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00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,080
What you done?
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They wouldn't tell me.
53
00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:03,760
Is Ruby doing it?
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00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,240
Whatever it is, is Ruby doing it?
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00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,680
I've got to go. Where are you going?
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Where are you going?
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Ruby...
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What? What are you doing?
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Where do you go, when you're out
with them Pakis? What do you do?
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00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,200
Um...
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I sit on the settee.
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They give me money
for sitting on the settee.
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00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,520
Ruby is pregnant.
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We'll need more tests to check
for STIs.
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Are you going to bash my face in?
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No...Ruby...
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No. Why would you say that?
Cos that's what you always said.
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00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,520
If me or Amber got
pregnant before we were 16...
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Come here...
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Do you know who got you pregnant?
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Yeah.
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What's he called?
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Billy.
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Billy what?
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Just Billy.
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00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,400
Do you know where he lives?
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Havelock Grange.
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Right. Come on.
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00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:02,840
Why?
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00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,200
I don't want him to get
into trouble.
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00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,920
It's alright,
you just point at his house.
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Is that his taxi?
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Yeah.
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And is that his house?
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Yeah.
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Can we go now?
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Bye. Bye. See ya.
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Bye.
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Bye.
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00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,200
Hello, Rochdale Police.
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00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,120
'13-year-old
on the child protection register,
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00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,840
'got a statement of learning needs,
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'pregnant by a mid-30s man
with a family of his own.'
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00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,600
I can tell you his name,
his address, his licence plate.
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00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,320
She's getting
a termination tomorrow
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at Millfield Road Clinic, 3 o'clock.
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00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,520
Hello. Ruby Bowen?
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00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,500
Ruby's frightened of needles.
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00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:51,360
She'll be fine.
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00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,600
It's OK.
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00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,680
He was doing appeasement.
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What's that, then?
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00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,280
Like, he was just saying
yeah to what Hitler wanted,
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00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,480
just to, like, keep the peace?
Very good.
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00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:50,440
Where was he from?
The Conservatives.
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00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,320
What part of the world?
Well, that's not in it, is it?
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00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,240
It's a bonus question.
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00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,640
Dad! It's GCSEs not a pub quiz.
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00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,160
Oi, smartarse, how many GCSEs
have you got?
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00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,320
How many have you? No comment.
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00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,920
Well, what about what's in there?
Did I do alright?
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00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,320
alright? You got every one.
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00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,000
And for that, Paxo here's going
to make you a cup of tea.
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One for me, as well, please!
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00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,040
What's her name? She's so cute.
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Holly.
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I've got yours.
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Girls, can we have a minute, please?
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Did I pass any?
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You passed them all.
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Every one.
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You can do A levels, Holly.
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You can go to university.
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You can do whatever you want.
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00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,600
Holly'll be back soon. Don't you
want to know how she got on?
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00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,840
Course I do. I'm going to go
and meet her halfway.
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00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:00,360
Tell us! Will you just tell us?
Where's Dad?
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00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:05,760
Passed 'em all.
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00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,520
Every single one.
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00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,760
That's fantastic, love.
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00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:12,520
Dad?
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00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,200
What's wrong?
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00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,000
Your case has been dropped.
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00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,840
There's going to be no charges.
Against anyone.
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00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,520
Why?
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00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,840
Cos there's an "unrealistic
prospect of conviction".
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00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,720
His DNA's all over your knickers...
Jim!
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00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,080
..and there's an "unrealistic
prospect of conviction".
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00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:45,200
Mum?
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00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,360
What about all the interviews I did,
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00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:49,400
and picking 'em out of a line-up?
142
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,960
It wasn't the police, Holly.
It was CPS.
143
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:53,520
Why?
144
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,760
I told the truth.
145
00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,400
I told 'em everything.
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00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,120
I know. They didn't think
a jury would believe you.
147
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:41,960
Thanks very much, but no thanks.
148
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,240
You don't even know
what I'm going to ask you yet.
149
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:45,400
I know you've got an operation
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00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,860
running into sex abuse
by Asian gangs.
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00:12:48,060 --> 00:12:50,120
What else have you heard?
152
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,800
That there's a foetus been found
in a freezer
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00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,280
belonging to a 13-year-old girl.
154
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,480
You've had a 15-year-old locked
in a cell for being a madam.
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00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:00,600
All sorts.
156
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,800
It's not good.
157
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,440
But we've a chance now
to put it right.
158
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,640
We can get convictions here, Maggie,
if we can re-engage the girls.
159
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,280
I've been here before, Sandy.
160
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:16,840
2004, 2005- same story,
but Manchester not Rochdale.
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00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,160
I spent over a year
getting two 14-year-old girls
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00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,800
to spill their guts to me
about what had been done to them,
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00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,800
only for the whole thing
to just fade away.
164
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,800
Maggie, you can trust me
when I tell you,
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00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,600
there's a fair wind behind this one.
166
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,480
You can have a force-9 gale,
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00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:33,400
but that won't compel
a vulnerable kid into a witness box.
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00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,240
I know that.
Which is why I need you.
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00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,040
Come on, Maggie.
Let me just show you the file.
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00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:46,760
File?
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00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,080
alright, Files.
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00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:51,920
Amber and Ruby Bowen.
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00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:53,680
Amber of the jail cell.
174
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,800
Ruby of the foetus.
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00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,200
They're key to this,
and we need 'em. Both of 'em.
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00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,680
They're both victims
of the same group of men.
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00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,800
But Amber was arrested?
178
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,240
She was, yeah.
179
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,480
Other kids thought
she was in control.
180
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,600
Maybe she even thought she was in
control but, of course, she wasn't.
181
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,520
The men were.
She was never charged
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00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,360
And Ruby? Well, we've got
Forensics with the foetus
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00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,160
that leads us right
to the perpetrator...
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00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,080
if we can get her consent for us
having it in the first place.
185
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,240
So, she doesn't know that we have it
or that it was ever taken?
186
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,480
I'm not going to lie to you,
Maggie. It's a mess.
187
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,680
Rochdale's had trouble with
on-street grooming going way back,
188
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,040
and even when they had
a cracking case,
189
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,200
kid called Holly Winshaw,
they never got it to trial.
190
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,400
Now the IPCC are
investigating their failings.
191
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:46,960
How many victims?
192
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:48,320
47.
193
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,320
They're drowning in it.
194
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,280
My priority is to reopen
every one of these cases.
195
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,440
And re-engage the girls.
196
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:02,480
Adil Khan.
197
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,560
Shabir Ahmed, Abdul Aziz.
198
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,160
Kabeer Hasan. Mohammed Sajid.
199
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,480
Mohammed Amin. Abdul Raulf.
200
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,040
Abdul Qayyum. Hamid Safi.
201
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,520
Anya Miah, we don't need to bother
about him, cos he's in jail already.
202
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,160
What for, sir? Child abuse charges
going back to the 1980s.
203
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,080
He was a fugitive from the law when
he did what he did to these girls.
204
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:24,520
He got 15 years,
205
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,320
so he's out the way.
206
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,000
'I want the rest of these
individuals arrested.
207
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,520
'I want them taken to separate
police stations to be interviewed,
208
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,760
'and I want their houses searched.
209
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,280
'The press know we've
an operation running.
210
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,760
'They've agreed to a news embargo
till the new year.'
211
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,800
You don't have to get hold of me.
212
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,880
'If your role is with victims,
213
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,480
'then I want you planning
your approach with Peter Boyd,'
214
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,600
who's a specialist
interview advisor.
215
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,080
I know Mr Guthrie
will have belaboured the point,
216
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,160
but I am going to hammer it home
some more.
217
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,120
This entire operation
stands and falls
218
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,640
on us being able to
re-engage these girls.
219
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,360
They were children who were raped
and abused,
220
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,240
and when they went to the police
nothing was done about it.
221
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,400
What this investigation needs,
more than anything, is open minds.
222
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,720
I want you going out there
thinking of these girls
223
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,200
as your own kids or grandkids.
224
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,880
Cos if it was your own,
you'd be torn to pieces.
225
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:25,680
Why?
226
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,680
Why now?
Mr Winshaw is Holly at home?
227
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,800
She's in a mother-and-baby hostel.
228
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,680
I've got three other kids in there,
229
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,880
and I can't have Holly
ripping a hole
230
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:37,800
in the middle of this house.
231
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,920
And do you know who I blame
for that?
232
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,920
Whose fault it is
that she's in pieces
233
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,280
and seems determined
to stay that way? You.
234
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,520
All of you.
235
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,240
I'm Maggie Oliver. I'm a detective
with Greater Manchester Police.
236
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:00,600
This is Detective John Duff.
237
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,560
I'd like to talk to you
and the girls.
238
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,240
They're not here.
Who is it? >
239
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:06,400
Mum!
240
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,920
Who are you?
What are you saying they've done?
241
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:10,920
We're not saying they've done
anything.
242
00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:12,480
Far from it. We need their help.
243
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,280
We're here because they were both
victims of offences.
244
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,560
Just fucking answer me when I ask
you! Who the fuck are they?!
245
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:19,920
Stay in the house.
246
00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:23,000
For fuck's sake, what are you doing?
Get in! Fuck...
247
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,880
Greater Manchester Police
are reopening an investigation
248
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:29,440
into what went on.
We've come to ask
249
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,160
if they'd be prepared
to make statements.
250
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:33,640
What do you think you're doing,
coming to my door now?
251
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,360
I understand you weren't
expecting us, but we're...
252
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,040
Expecting you?
Why would I be expecting you?
253
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,800
You knew what were going on
and what did you do?
254
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,560
Arrest me daughter for being a pimp.
255
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,000
No-one bothered.
256
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,840
Except that Sara at Sexual Health.
257
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,480
None of you...
258
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,720
We want nothing to do
with any of you.
259
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,960
So don't come near,
cos we are giving you nothing!
260
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,840
What are you doing?
I'm not doing nothing.
261
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,260
Why you shouting at me?
I'm not shouting at you!
262
00:18:07,460 --> 00:18:09,680
Just fuck off! Fuck off! Fuck OFF!
263
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,040
Sara...
264
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:30,960
I'm DC Maggie Oliver.
265
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,720
I'm a detective with
Greater Manchester Police.
266
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:36,840
OK.
267
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,720
GMP's running an operation,
Operation Span,
268
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,320
to put right
what went wrong at Rochdale
269
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,920
in relation
to the grooming of young girls.
270
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:49,360
I understand that you made several
referrals to the police
271
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:54,000
in relation to two girls in
particular, Amber and Ruby Bowen.
272
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,200
So, I'm here in the hope
that you might have some
273
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,800
relevant intelligence
in relation to them.
274
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:12,680
I... I've...got the car, so,
275
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,560
um, if there are files,
I can take 'em now.
276
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:20,960
Fuck off.
277
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,040
No, really.
278
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:26,720
I mean it.
279
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,920
Fuck off!
280
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:32,720
I've been in here,
281
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,080
sat in here,
282
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,360
for years,
283
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,080
and what you're demanding off me now
284
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,840
I couldn't pay you lot
to look at for years.
285
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,360
And what, you swan in here off the
street with your Prada handbag
286
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,720
telling me to hand it over like you
were asking to check me gas meter?
287
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,960
I understand... Oh, no, you don't.
288
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,520
You really, really don't.
289
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,840
What those girls have been
telling me for years
290
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,240
I have been powerless
to do anything about
291
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,240
Because you lot didn't want to know.
292
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,760
Well, we want to know now.
293
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,080
This is the biggest
operation GMP's running.
294
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,280
What do you think been happening
to those girls in the meantime?
295
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:18,440
Raped, beaten, not believed.
Raped, beaten, not believed.
296
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,720
What do you think
that does to a kid?
297
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,040
Do you think they're sitting round
waiting to do their civic duty
298
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,680
because you lot have got
your act together?
299
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,280
If you want documents off me,
make an application.
300
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,720
Fill out a form. Do whatever
official thing it is you coppers
301
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,080
have to do when you're after
evidence.
302
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,720
But don't rock up here after
all these years,
303
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,240
acting like you're
the saviour of the family!
304
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,760
Here's your little bunny.
Here you go.
305
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,880
Here he is.
306
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,400
Holly...
307
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,060
when you went to the police about
Tariq and Daddy and those other men,
308
00:21:23,260 --> 00:21:26,520
the CPS made a decision
not to prosecute.
309
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,040
But now there's a new team of
police working on the kind of crime
310
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:32,800
you were a victim of.
311
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,960
We want to reopen your case
and bring these men to trial.
312
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,060
So, you want me to help you?
313
00:21:39,260 --> 00:21:41,120
Yeah, we do.
314
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,800
When you NEVER helped me.
315
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,840
Why would I do that?
316
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,680
Because you come here and you sit,
being nice to me baby?
317
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,840
Why don't you try taking
me to McDonald's?
318
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,320
Or is it just social workers
who do that?
319
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,320
It's pathetic.
I just want to talk to you, Holly.
320
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,160
The police just want to talk to you.
I've talked to 'em.
321
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,120
I've talked to 'em
and talked to 'em
322
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,040
and talked to 'em
and talked to 'em.
323
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,520
And then they turn round
and call me a liar.
324
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,640
Are you Margaret Oliver?
I am, yeah.
325
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,780
From Sara Rowbotham,
Rochdale Sexual Health.
326
00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:39,200
There's two more down the hall.
327
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,360
There aren't 47 girls.
328
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,600
There's hundreds of 'em.
329
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,080
She's got names, addresses,
reg plates.
330
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,200
Multiple girls reporting
the same perpetrators.
331
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,040
Why the hell didn't Rochdale CID
have these files?
332
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,320
Because they didn't want 'em.
333
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,560
What do you mean, they didn't want
them? It's bloody evidence.
334
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:12,840
Not according to them.
335
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,400
Sexual Health made hundreds
of referrals to the police
336
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,600
and they got the same response
every time.
337
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,760
"This isn't evidence, Sara,
it's just intelligence,
338
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,920
"and it's not something for us to do
anything about."
339
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,760
No wonder she wiped the
floor with me.
340
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,800
Operation Stable Door, this.
341
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,360
The girls will just not talk to us.
342
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,680
We've underestimated
how fragile they are
343
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,480
and the level of anger and betrayal
they feel towards the police.
344
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,000
Well, because this
is a live investigation
345
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,840
for Greater Manchester Police,
346
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,600
detectives are keeping their cards
pretty close to their chests,
347
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,980
but what we do know is that nine
arrests were made here in Rochdale
348
00:23:57,180 --> 00:24:00,160
just before Christmas
over allegations
349
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:03,600
concerning the sexual
exploitation of teenage girls.
350
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,000
Now, we understand that all the men
are Asian,
351
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,400
and that all the
girls involved are white.
352
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,000
The arrests were made
353
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,240
on suspicion of allowing premises
to be used for prostitution,
354
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,080
of inciting child prostitution,
355
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,640
suspicion of rape and sexual
activity with a child.
356
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,480
The nine men have been
released on bail
357
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,160
while police investigate
the allegations.
358
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,960
Hannah, am I right in thinking that
these are not new allegations?
359
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,360
Well, these allegations were made
to Rochdale police in 2008,
360
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,040
however, the case was dropped
361
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,400
and none of the complaints against
these men ever made it to trial.
362
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,520
This is something Greater
Manchester Police
363
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,360
is going to have to grapple with
as the police's own watchdog,
364
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,600
the Independent Police
Complaints Commission
365
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,360
has been brought in
to look at what happened.
366
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,640
It's early days yet
for that inquiry
367
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,240
but we do know there are concerns
within Greater Manchester Police
368
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,600
about the standard and the quality
of the earlier investigation.
369
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,200
What do you think you're
going to find?
370
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,080
I'm not a total fucking moron.
371
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:09,880
You know the score, Holly.
372
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,600
Sobriety is a condition
of you keeping Ella.
373
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,840
That's why we do these spot checks.
374
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,200
I could be arseholed right now and
you lot wouldn't have a clue.
375
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,080
Are you? Course I'm fucking not!
376
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,720
You're not helping yourself. Or her.
377
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,880
You're a pointless fucking bitch.
Do you know that?
378
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:42,960
This is Emily Stone from the CPS,
379
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,280
who'll be working alongside us
at Span from here on in.
380
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,040
There's a couple of cases where
the evidence is already there.
381
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,320
Holly Winshaw.
382
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:52,920
Ruby Bowen, Amber Bowen.
383
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:55,480
They've told us where to go,
I know that,
384
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,080
but we need to approach them again.
385
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:58,960
I just don't think a family
like the Bowens
386
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,680
would cooperate
with us in a month of Sundays.
387
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,800
What's the obstacle? It's that.
388
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,440
It's that, John. It's THAT attitude.
389
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,760
"A family like that."
That's the obstacle.
390
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,840
Lorna can smell that off us
as soon as look at us
391
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,600
because everyone in authority
treats her like that.
392
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,280
It's...
393
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,280
It's not brain surgery, this.
394
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,720
We treat them as human beings,
395
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,800
and we say we're sorry.
396
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,720
'Hello?'
397
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,480
Oh, hi, Lorna.
398
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,000
'Who is this?'
399
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,160
'It's Maggie Oliver,
we met a couple of weeks ago
400
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:37,840
'when I came around your house
to talk to you about the girls.'
401
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,880
Hello, can you hear me?
402
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,480
'What do you want?
Look, I told you...'
403
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:43,920
Yep, I know you did.
404
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,560
And I'm not surprised, because if I
were you and a copper
405
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,340
'came round to my door, I'd want to
hose them off the pavement. But...
406
00:26:50,540 --> 00:26:53,920
'I'd like another chance to
talk to you.'
407
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,120
What happened to your girls
is a disgrace.
408
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,760
What we LET happen.
409
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,680
But we've got a chance to put
it right.
410
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,080
Ring me next week.
411
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:10,480
Who's ringing you next week?
412
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,840
Just someone from housing.
413
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,680
'And the lead
in the Times says
414
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,080
'a culture of silence that has
facilitated the sexual exploitation
415
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,800
'of hundreds of young British girls
416
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,640
'by criminal pimping gangs
is exposed by the paper.
417
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,520
'Today a pattern of abuse across
the North and the Midlands is...'
418
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,800
'The Times is pursuing
a revelation in the paper
419
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,400
'that there is sexual exploitation
of hundreds of young girls...'
420
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,440
The Times newspaper
identified 17 prosecutions
421
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,120
'of street grooming
over the past 14 years
422
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,400
'and it said of the 56 convicted
in those cases,
423
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,880
'53 were Asian.'
424
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,560
Mags... Mags! A word?
425
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,640
Have you seen the papers?
426
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,400
It's all eyes on us.
427
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,360
The Times is saying the
failures in Rochdale happened
428
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,280
because police were scared of
upsetting racial sensitivities.
429
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,000
Well, if those men
come back off bail
430
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,040
and we can't charge them
with anything,
431
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,080
there's going to be riots.
432
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,040
They don't know I'm meeting you,
you know. Neither of 'em.
433
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,000
Amber don't like to think
about that time.
434
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:39,960
Does she ever talk about it?
435
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,720
Not to me.
436
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,280
Never.
437
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,600
Lorna...
438
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,480
we've got Ruby's foetus.
439
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,760
When she had the termination,
it was seized by the police.
440
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,840
Why? So that they could test it
441
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,600
and get a DNA match with the bloke
that got her pregnant.
442
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,360
They got the match, but they didn't
do any more about it then.
443
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,600
But we can now,
if Ruby gives her permission
444
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,920
to let us use those DNA results
in court.
445
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,040
Sorry...
446
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,680
There's a real chance
that we can get this man put away,
447
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,360
and all the others,
448
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,440
if we can get the girls to talk.
449
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,560
You don't understand.
Amber, she knows it were wrong.
450
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,480
But Ruby, she'll never talk to you.
451
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,760
Still thinks
them blokes were friends.
452
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,560
If she sees them in the
street, she... She waves.
453
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,240
Amber's got to live in 'ere
cos of Ruby's anger problems.
454
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,520
She can't be at home wi' me.
455
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:05,760
Hiya.
456
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,200
She's not herself today.
457
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,560
Are you?
458
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,720
What's wrong with her?
459
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,320
She's not going to toilet.
460
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,080
If you lie her on a blanket
and cycle her legs,
461
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,160
sometimes that
can help move things along.
462
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,520
I've never heard of that before.
463
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,880
Have you, Amber?
464
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,640
Worked with my four,
and me grandsons,
465
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,680
except for one, who I think holds
it in just to spite me.
466
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,400
You're a cop? Yeah.
467
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,200
Coming on 20 years now.
468
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,000
When my kids went to school,
469
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:58,600
I went to uni
470
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,320
and, um, then I joined the force.
471
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,780
I'm not going in any police station.
472
00:31:03,980 --> 00:31:06,040
You wouldn't have to.
473
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,860
There's a special unit in Bury.
474
00:31:09,060 --> 00:31:11,480
It's for victims.
475
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,520
That's what you were.
476
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,360
A victim.
477
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,640
One of many.
478
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,320
And we'd support you, as a victim,
all the way through to trial.
479
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,440
They'll kill me
if I say owt to police.
480
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,480
They don't know where you live.
481
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,920
Take 'em five seconds to find out.
482
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,220
I see 'em on the streets.
483
00:31:34,420 --> 00:31:36,320
If I go out.
484
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:37,600
Which I don't.
485
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,000
So, you're stuck in here, in a
homeless hostel with a newborn...
486
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,880
..while they're out there,
free to go on about their lives.
487
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,800
When did you move out
your mum and dad's?
488
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,600
Couple of months ago.
489
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,640
Too much fighting with me dad.
490
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,080
He's just mad at everything.
491
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,600
Mad at me,
492
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,060
mad at the police, mad at CPS.
493
00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:23,320
He joined BNP.
494
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,160
Did he? Yeah. Then left it again.
495
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,000
Mad at them, probably.
496
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,560
Anyway, he's right that there's
no-one's stood over me,
497
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,200
forcing me to neck a bottle
of cider every night.
498
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,160
It's not as simple as that,
though, is it?
499
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,680
He was like, "Right, Holly,
500
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,120
"they've washed their hands
of you, move on.
501
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,680
"No-one's going to do owt for you."
502
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,040
They didn't then.
503
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,680
But they want to now.
504
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,480
What's the point?
505
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,520
It were years ago.
506
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,840
Does it feel like years ago?
507
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,720
Sir? Yeah.
508
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,280
Holly Winshaw's on board.
509
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,400
Thank God for that. Well done, Nina.
510
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,180
Oh, it wasn't me, sir. It was Sara.
511
00:33:25,380 --> 00:33:26,630
Holly trusts her.
512
00:33:26,830 --> 00:33:28,080
Right.
513
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,080
Let's go after these bastards.
514
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,040
At last, we've a number of girls
515
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,800
who've agreed to be interviewed.
516
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,480
But it's the quality
of those interviews
517
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,220
that's going to make
or break our case with the CPS.
518
00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:44,760
Memory degrades like tape degrades.
519
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,480
They won't, off the tops
of their heads,
520
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,000
remember names, addresses,
521
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:51,880
because they were drunk, yes,
522
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,520
but mainly because
they don't want to.
523
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,200
Every time you ask a question,
524
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,160
you are re-traumatising them.
525
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,960
You're bringing them back there.
But there's no other way.
526
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,560
'Because these girls' memories...'
Hiya. '..That's our crime scene.'
527
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,120
Hiya.
528
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,120
You alright?
529
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,280
Hiya, little girl.
530
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,000
Oh!
531
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:18,640
Ohh!
532
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,000
Aren't you sweet!
533
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,640
Cameras, so we've got
your evidence to play at court.
534
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,720
I know. I've been here before.
535
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,800
Course you have.
536
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,920
What I want you to do now, Holly,
537
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,720
is start right at the beginning.
538
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,740
Tell me, in as much detail
as you can,
539
00:34:50,940 --> 00:34:53,760
everything that's happened.
540
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,040
Amber...
541
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:04,940
In the files, back at the office,
542
00:35:05,140 --> 00:35:07,640
there was this, um,
543
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,520
list of names
that you wrote out for Gregory,
544
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:14,600
that social worker that you saw
for a bit last year.
545
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,000
Do you remember telling him
about those names?
546
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,240
Your mum said that
he left shortly after that.
547
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,440
You must have felt very let down.
548
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,320
Thing is, those names.
549
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,720
They're a really important piece
of evidence, and, um...
550
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,120
..maybe we can build on it.
551
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:42,000
Maybe you and me,
552
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,960
we can make something of it.
553
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,640
He said, "Don't cry."
554
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,760
And he said, "You're beautiful."
555
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,100
And when he was on top of you,
556
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:25,360
what was you doing?
557
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,080
I were trying to move, but...
558
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,160
..I just gave up.
559
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,840
Cos what's the point in trying?
560
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,240
DC Margaret Oliver
interviewing Amber Bowen.
561
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,000
Amber...
562
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,280
..can you tell me about when
you went to the kebab shops?
563
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,980
Everything that bitch did,
she did free willingly.
564
00:37:35,180 --> 00:37:38,280
That fucking sket Holly Winshaw.
565
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,640
Lying fucking bitch.
566
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,080
The list that you gave Gregory,
567
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,640
the social worker
who was around for a while,
568
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,280
that was a list of lots of men,
wasn't it?
569
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,320
Addresses of lots
of different flats.
570
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,840
They never touched me.
571
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,680
They actually never touched me
unless I wanted them to touch me.
572
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,080
Will you be alright on your own?
573
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,160
Me mum's bringing Yasmin
back in a minute.
574
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,280
First one's the hardest
575
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,160
because you're opening up that box
that's locked in your head.
576
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,120
It'll get easier.
577
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,080
No... No!
578
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,600
Can you let me in please, Holly? >
579
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:01,040
It's jackboot tactics,
is what it is.
580
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:03,840
She's safe and happy here.
581
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,320
Come and have a look at her.
582
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,960
She's safe and happy in this house
with me and my wife.
583
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,860
Holly was fully aware
that this would be the outcome
584
00:40:13,060 --> 00:40:15,560
if she carried on the way she was.
585
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,200
This isn't about Holly now, is it?
586
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,640
It's about Ella.
587
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,640
My granddaughter.
588
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,520
I am perfectly capable
589
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,960
and my wife is perfectly capable
of looking after our own.
590
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,640
This is temporary.
At the moment, it's temporary.
591
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,080
She'll be in foster care
for the next few weeks,
592
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,680
I'm sorry, but we have to
enforce the order.
593
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,040
No...
594
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:50,880
Holly.
595
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:53,240
Please don't.
596
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,520
I'll do better. I'll change.
We have to, Holly.
597
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,800
I'm sorry!
598
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,480
Dad, please!
599
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,760
They've got to take the baby.
600
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:14,400
Come on.
601
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:40,920
No.
602
00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:44,080
No.
603
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:47,600
No.
604
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,000
Daddy.
605
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:55,880
No.
606
00:41:58,120 --> 00:41:59,320
No.
607
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,280
I can't do no more.
608
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,120
I can't do no more.
609
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,320
You're helping other kids by doing
this. You know that, don't you?
610
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,200
Making sure that what happened to
you never happens to them.
611
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,400
Imagine how you'd feel
if they ever went near Yasmin.
612
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,000
They never could.
613
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,200
They never would,
cos I'd wouldn't let them.
614
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,760
Yeah, but what if she didn't
have someone like you?
615
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,440
What about those kids who don't have
anyone to protect them?
616
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:12,080
I can't do no more.
617
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:14,880
You can.
618
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,880
I know you can.
619
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,320
OK. alright. Go on, then.
620
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,880
Go in there, give it another go.
621
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,640
Our star witness looking like
she's too vulnerable to proceed.
622
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:42,920
How's Holly doing?
623
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,320
I don't know. It's too early to say.
She's still in hospital,
624
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,240
but I do know her parents don't want
us coming anywhere near.
625
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:57,680
Maggie?
626
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,040
The boss wants to see you.
627
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,640
I've heard Amber's first
interview, Maggie.
628
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,440
She's calling Holly
every name under the sun.
629
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,720
I know that first interview
with Amber wasn't what we needed,
630
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,080
but she's done hours more
since then.
631
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,200
She's given us names, places,
phone numbers, taxi firms.
632
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:21,600
We need Ruby.
633
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,800
But Ruby's a different kettle
of fish altogether.
634
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,520
We need to start thinking
like prosecutors now.
635
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,040
There's forensics with Ruby,
the foetus.
636
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:32,880
If she gives us consent
to use it. And right now...
637
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:37,000
Right now, she's our best chance
of successful prosecution.
638
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,680
I've spent months building
a relationship with Amber
639
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,840
because that's what it's taken
to get her to trust the police.
640
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:47,680
She was scared at first, Sandy,
641
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,600
but then she's really
started to open up.
642
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,320
We're not talking about Amber.
643
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,880
I'd like you to engage Ruby.
644
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:59,440
Sir.
645
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,320
Amber wanted to see you today.
646
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,560
The little one's teething.
647
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,600
Any tips?
648
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,200
Well, I just wanted a chat
to Ruby today on our own.
649
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:16,760
I'm not going to lie to you, Ruby.
650
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,800
I want you to tell me
what happened to you.
651
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,640
You went through a terrible time,
652
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,440
and we want to make sure that that
never happens to other children.
653
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,240
It wasn't a terrible time.
654
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,160
It was one of the best times.
It were mint.
655
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,400
You were 13 years old,
656
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,840
and he was a married man of
nearly 40 with children of his own,
657
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,040
and he got you pregnant.
That's not right.
658
00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:50,040
You don't know anything.
659
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:54,400
I know you were the victim
of somebody who was older...
660
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,860
We was having a relationship.
661
00:46:57,060 --> 00:46:59,120
He loved me.
662
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,520
I wasn't a victim of anything.
663
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,680
I told you you'd have no chance
with Ruby.
664
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,320
It's OK. She's just got
to work it out in her own head.
665
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:44,920
She's asleep.
666
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,440
Fine, OK.
667
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,680
Do you want to come in?
668
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,720
She's got nothing to live for now.
669
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:57,360
No focus,
670
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,280
no purpose.
671
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,240
And it's maddening, cos she played
right into their hands
672
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,720
and did the exact thing that gave
them the power to take Ella off her.
673
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,400
You lot egged her on...
674
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,920
to get involved with this.
675
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,560
You can all go home, can't you,
at the end of the day.
676
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,040
It's her that's left with it going
round and round in her head.
677
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:21,520
Yeah.
678
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,920
I did egg her on...
679
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,440
because I thought it would
help her.
680
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,920
Oh, it's done her the power
of good, ain't it?
681
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,320
And I still think that
this is important, psychologically,
682
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:41,200
for her to get the chance to stand
up and say what happened.
683
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,080
She's been standing up for years.
684
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,200
Yeah, she has, but now, finally...
685
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,960
..there's people listening.
686
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,120
Did it look like a baby?
687
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:00,960
I don't know.
688
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,280
How big was it?
689
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:14,800
Was it tiny?
690
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,160
I don't know.
691
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,080
Why did they freeze it?
692
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,160
I think so then it won't go off.
693
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,920
So they can do tests on it
if they wanted to.
694
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,840
But they can't do owt with the
results unless you say they can.
695
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,080
OK.
696
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,000
It's a shame for it.
697
00:49:57,720 --> 00:49:59,680
What happened to it.
698
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:02,520
In't it?
699
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,840
Yeah.
700
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,860
It won't always be like this.
701
00:50:24,060 --> 00:50:26,120
Yeah, it will.
702
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,120
We can apply for guardianship
of her.
703
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,720
Me and your mum.
704
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,640
If you want that.
705
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,320
I don't know why I did it.
706
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:51,920
I don't...
707
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,360
Sara came to see you.
708
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,120
Sounds like the coppers,
this time round,
709
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,400
they're night and day
from the other lot.
710
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:09,120
You don't have to have anything
to do with 'em,
711
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,680
but if you want to carry on with
this...
712
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,400
..your mum and me, we...
713
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,880
we'll be right behind you.
714
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,440
Come on, Ruby.
715
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,400
They pass you round like a ball.
716
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:37,320
They, like, get your number
717
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,360
and then there's, like,
718
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,600
50 people you don't know
who are ringing you.
719
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,000
What do you mean, they pass you
round like a ball, Ruby?
720
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,200
They'd be in a flat in, like,
a massive circle...
721
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,280
..and then they'd put the white girl
in the middle.
722
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,880
Then you'd get sent off
with one of them,
723
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,840
and then you'd come back and, like,
get passed and passed again.
724
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,720
And where was the flat?
725
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,600
There weren't one.
726
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,440
There were loads.
727
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,160
I didn't feel anything.
728
00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:23,320
Why do you think you felt like that?
729
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,840
Because it had been going
on for so long.
730
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,640
'It hurt...
731
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,280
'..because I didn't want to do it.
732
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,240
'And I'd only had sex, like,
733
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,440
'a couple of times before that,
as well.
734
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,480
'Say again. Sorry?
735
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:54,040
'Cos I'd only had sex, like,
a couple of times before that.
736
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:57,880
'Amber thought that
he was her boyfriend.
737
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,320
'So, what did you think was going
to happen when he picked you up?
738
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:08,400
'I didn't actually know
he was taking us to have sex.
739
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,600
'What was you doing?
740
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:12,520
'I were trying to move.
741
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:14,800
'But I just gave up.
742
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,400
'Because what's the point
in trying?'
743
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,920
The problem is the witness
Holly Winshaw.
744
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,720
She was seen as unreliable then
and, arguably,
745
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,520
she's even less
likely to convince a jury now,
746
00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:32,900
given the troubles she's had
in the meantime.
747
00:53:33,100 --> 00:53:35,080
Chaotic. Chaotic.
748
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,440
That is exactly the kind of person
who's affected by this crime.
749
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,160
The girl that no-one's looking out
for, who's on the streets at night,
750
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:43,960
out of control of the parents.
751
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,760
That quality made her
a victim in the first place. Agreed.
752
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,840
So, if it's also the quality that
keeps her out the witness box,
753
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:52,600
isn't she doubly damned?
754
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,800
But to be ultra-pragmatic
for a moment,
755
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,760
what is the point in subjecting
a girl like Holly to a trial
756
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,360
if a jury is not going to believe
she's telling the truth?
757
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,680
If a jury's not going
to believe her?
758
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:06,680
Why are we making that assumption?
759
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,600
I watched her interviews...
760
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:12,960
..and I believed her.
761
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,760
And in court,
how do we deal with the fact
762
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,840
that it's on record
that we DIDN'T believe her?
763
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,400
We put our hand up
and we say we got it wrong.
764
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:28,440
It went well.
765
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,440
CPS have agreed the charges we want
to go for in respect of Ruby.
766
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,240
Really good work, Maggie.
Well done.
767
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,520
And the Chief Prosecutor himself has
given us the green light on Holly.
768
00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:40,800
We're going to trial.
769
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,320
Emily, can I have a word?
770
00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,160
Yeah, of course.
771
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:00,960
It's about Amber.
772
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,600
Look, I'm sorry, Maggie, but we
cannot put her in a witness box.
773
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,600
No. I don't believe it.
774
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:11,720
No. She's just too volatile.
775
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,440
She's been through what the other
girls have gone through, and more.
776
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:16,640
I know, but a jury...
777
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,760
A jury can see a damaged person
when there's one in front of them.
778
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,880
She will not go down well
with a jury.
779
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,800
So, Holly's the right kind of
victim, but Amber...
780
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,880
Isn't this the kind of attitude
towards young girls
781
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,500
that created this mess
in the first place?
782
00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:35,920
This is not a value judgment.
783
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,080
It's just a statement of fact about
what the legal system demands.
784
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,020
We need to be strategic
about calling witnesses
785
00:55:43,220 --> 00:55:45,760
so we can get those convictions.
786
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:47,600
We cannot have two kids
787
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,000
contradicting
and blaming each other.
788
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,040
The jury's heads will pop,
and we will go away with nothing.
789
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:55,420
Let's credit the jury
with some intelligence!
790
00:55:55,620 --> 00:55:57,600
Both of these girls were victims!
791
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,400
Amber was the kind of kid
whose basic human needs,
792
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:05,000
um, warmth, shelter, food, drink,
793
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,240
were being met by a kebab shop,
794
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,480
and if she WAS in charge, if she
was getting the other girls
795
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,600
to dish out blow jobs, it was so she
didn't have to do them all herself!
796
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,520
Maggie, stop it.
You're getting too emotional.
797
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:19,160
Yeah, but isn't that exactly why I
was put on this job?
798
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,520
Because I'm older, I'm a mum,
I'm a gran...
799
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:24,640
Oh, I'm so bloody domestic, the
girls will forget that I'm a copper
800
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,580
and they'll trust me
and they'll open up to me,
801
00:56:26,780 --> 00:56:28,320
and that's exactly what Amber did.
802
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:30,840
Do you know what it cost her
to do that? And for what?!
803
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:32,640
So I can go back to her and say,
804
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,400
"No-one's going to court
for what they did to you,
805
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,720
"because you're coarse and you
swear and you're unsympathetic."
806
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,920
Sandy guaranteed that this
wouldn't happen again!
807
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,760
It is the job of the CPS
808
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,640
to decide what we present at trial.
809
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,160
Not everybody gets their day
in court, Maggie.
810
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,560
They're not using Amber,
but they're going to use Ruby.
811
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,800
I'm not using anyone.
812
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,080
'Nine men have been charged
over allegations of grooming
813
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,400
'and committing sexual activity
with teenage girls in Rochdale.
814
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,320
'The men have been charged
with offences including rape,
815
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:30,680
'paying for the sexual
services of a child,
816
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,520
'trafficking a child and
controlling child prostitution,
817
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,320
'going back to 2008.'
818
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,600
Shabir Ahmed,
you are charged with conspiracy
819
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,040
to have sexual activity
with a child,
820
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,900
conspiring with others
to sexually touch a child,
821
00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:46,560
multiple counts of trafficking,
822
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:48,520
multiple counts of rape.
823
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:53,760
Nine not-guilty pleas,
which means nine cross-examinations,
824
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,040
which means nine different
barristers telling these girls
825
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,640
that every word
they're saying's a lie.
826
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:03,200
Are they up to it?
827
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,600
'Innocent white victims.
Dark-skinned abusers.'
828
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,440
'It's uncomfortable, isn't it?'
CROWD CHANTS
829
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:14,740
The whole bloody country's
waiting on this trial
830
00:58:14,940 --> 00:58:17,040
and she's up there having a lie-in!
831
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:18,680
Where is she?
832
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,640
How dare you show your
face here again?!
833
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:23,560
If they didn't want me to be a
witness,
834
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,840
why did they beg me to do it
in the first place?
835
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,480
This incident did not happen,
did it, Holly?
836
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:29,840
Yeah, it did.
837
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:31,840
It was me you trusted.
838
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,440
It was me you poured your heart
out to and I'm sorry.
839
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:37,680
You're just going to
carry on doing
840
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,600
what you've been doing for years.
Telling the truth.
841
00:58:42,103 --> 00:58:52,103
Transcribed by Uncle Andy
842
00:58:53,305 --> 00:58:59,447
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